Kyronix, any updates on War On 3rd Party Clients?

@Kyronix these clients have scourged the game long enough and have ruined many aspects. For example, one of biggest parts of the game, PVP, that's supposed to be highly skilled but you cannot even remotely do that fairly anymore. It's all automated and skill-less.
Idocs? Completely automated, thanks to these clients.
Placing houses? Gee wonder why housing on Atlantic is ran by a few people and crazy expensive once these clients became so prolific.

You guys already have a system in place that (apparently, according to the discords) can send out random packets that needs responses. If that's the case, why not change the data in the packet and require a different response, make a list of accounts that can't reply (instead of disconnecting them like you did last time), and do a ban wave on those accounts that fail the check over a certain amount of times? 

This needs to be #1 priority right now.

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

Kyronix said:

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

Thanks for the reply. 

Kyronix said:

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

Translation: The "war on third party" was a horrible failure. Our attempt to inconvenience cheaters with intermittent disconnects was defeated within days. Even worse, we conclusively demonstrated that we will not actually conduct large-scale ban waves even when the cheating is blatant. Our current plan is to just never talk about it ever again.

username said:
You guys already have a system in place that (apparently, according to the discords) can send out random packets that needs responses. If that's the case, why not change the data in the packet and require a different response, make a list of accounts that can't reply (instead of disconnecting them like you did last time), and do a ban wave on those accounts that fail the check over a certain amount of times?

Because they can't actually afford to mass-ban paid accounts even when they're openly cheating. We've got one group of good third partiers doing free client development for the game and another group of bad third partiers who cheat as much as they want and get away with it. The developers have essentially been vanquished and have become an increasingly irrelevant force within their own game.

username said:

Kyronix said:

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

Thanks for the reply. 

Wait what.. he's pretty much telling you f off and f you and u thank him for it?

this never have existed: https://uo.com/2024/07/22/the-war-on-unapproved-3rd-party-programs/

   

Edit: by using cheating in that post the producer meant; Free Loading.


@kyronix you don't go far enough.. this is just lazyness wild west style; no laws no rules no order (also keep that event dev in check; unreal).. make a legit server and apply the rules also fire those affiliates and make a real EA cash shop to hire more dev power so u'll be able to do more than maintenance on vanilla while working on New Heresy; Theme Park Legacy.

Mariah said:

I wish I had the same level of mind reading skill as @ Lord_Nythrax and @ KroDuK

Can I politely request that those two poster stop 'interpreting' devs posts and allow our devs to post without their unhelpful input.

  An example from life, almost all countries have laws, police, courts, somewhere even repressions and that they managed to get rid of criminality?
  This is a game blah blah blah, the mentality of people does what it does, I'm not saying that bots are criminals, I'm saying that human nature works this way, if there is an opportunity to take 90% will take. People insult developers, but no one condemns bots?
  No game, no game! could and will not be able to overcome the dark side of the game, because these are the conditions of progress, people come up with cheats, developers come up with how to fight them - again, this is a question of mentality.
  If you have radical views on this issue, then start helping and promoting a healthy environment without cheaters. Simply asking sharp questions and insulting you will achieve nothing.

Mariah said:

It has NEVER been policy to forewarn exploiters of any action planned against them, yet you expect it to happen here?

I wish I had the same level of mind reading skill as @ Lord_Nythrax and @ KroDuK

Can I politely request that those two poster stop 'interpreting' devs posts and allow our devs to post without their unhelpful input.

username said:

@ Kyronix these clients have scourged the game long enough and have ruined many aspects. For example, one of biggest parts of the game, PVP, that's supposed to be highly skilled but you cannot even remotely do that fairly anymore. It's all automated and skill-less.

I'm going to pick up on this bit.
The difference in skill between me, and you, is real, it is infinite, it is huge, it is not down to scripting.
If the game were put on an equal level, you would be performing even worse, and still unable to understand why, but you would find another excuse.
It is down to training, you are all talk, you are a quitter. You will never be good.
I still often pvp with no scripts, and it makes no difference, but you need an excuse. I only need to use 2 scripts vs some of the best players in the game. I'm even using what many consider to be a pvm suit, to give you a clue, I'm using compassions eye, and alchemists bauble. It's still very much about teamwork, and skill.
Quitter quit, haters hate, you are one of them.

PvPers took an undeserved hit during the war against 3rd party software and Bots, and that made me angry, because there was not a level playing field between enhanced and classic, so pvpers had nowhere to go, as the majority will not use enhanced due to the way it looks and plays. Many pvpers quit, because the fun playstyle was gone. We had 3 big PvP guilds, now we only have 2.

PvP is picking up again, yesterday I did a 6 vs 11. PvP needs some love, it could be a slight refresh of VvV rewards. PvP is fun, it needs negative people to get off the case, the fact is, quitters will not come back no matter what. Culture wars just cause negative and bad feelings all round, and that is what you guys do.

Kyronix said:

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients. It's 2025, and the kids who played UO have grown up. They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate, and if it's because of cheating, put in place better rules or only allow one account per IP.

cansirus said:

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients. It's 2025, and the kids who played UO have grown up. They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate, and if it's because of cheating, put in place better rules or only allow one account per IP.

I respect you for saying loudly what a lot of users around here been thinking.. the problem here it create a bad balance for open world stuff.. like placing house, PvPing, farming mats/gears, etc etc..

They don't need to ban the cheaters or make cheating legit for everyone (u don't play the game you operate/supervising a machine.. to me it's a big no-no.. those games à la NCSoft already exist)


They could clearly make different rules for different shard tho.. like a free client one.. a CC one (classic style) a non cash shop/RMT one, etc, etc.. on the free client you are gonna see bots like u see them (on every shards) on Legend it's mostly all u see outside the bank.. bots!!
But on a legit shard.. u better hide or u gonna get transfer into a free client shard for cheating, type of stuff. (banworld shard)


PS: no need to hit on the moderator (the freaking messengers) I knew what I was doing.. even if I disagree with her saying i'm interpreting something.. if u read the war on third party post vs kyro response..

Mariah answer was made during an eclipse I believe.. she did not see the sun; that war on third party post from the producer in july 2024.. cuz now it's flirting with false advertissement, (more coming soon) considering kyro answer in this post.


And no i hvnt watch a 2 hours stream.. even at 2x it's too slow.. i'll just say that, to stay politicly correct; that CM ain't for me.

PS2: they don't need 2 person to replace Mesanna.. no need someone to deal with affiliates with a real EA cash shop.. the solution is soo easy.. cut into the fat make a legit option, keep that event dev in check and u gonna have plenty of fund to hire more dev power.. time to change that Bonnie culture.. time to look forward and up!

The last hope I had for UO was the tim cotten era with SA.. but yeah the more info was coming out the more WTF there was among us (the people i was playing with)
To see him quit the sinking boat 1 year later.. he did great stuff for UO tho (like to combat the non affiliates RMT'ers and/or dupers).. but yeah some of those mechanic.. like imbue and how u acquired ingredient.. was.. then the infamous High Sea.. the "booster pack" to promote their new client.. have you ever try to play on high sea with the CC?

Guess what else u were promoting with some of SA mechanics and the totality of high sea.. like u are with those events..

I have removed several posts and replies that did not adhere to the terms of service that we all agreed to. Please post responsibly,

Cookie said:

I'm going to pick up on this bit.
The difference in skill between me, and you, is real, it is infinite, it is huge, it is not down to scripting.
If the game were put on an equal level, you would be performing even worse, and still unable to understand why, but you would find another excuse.
It is down to training, you are all talk, you are a quitter. You will never be good.
I still often pvp with no scripts, and it makes no difference, but you need an excuse. I only need to use 2 scripts vs some of the best players in the game. I'm even using what many consider to be a pvm suit, to give you a clue, I'm using compassions eye, and alchemists bauble. It's still very much about teamwork, and skill.
Quitter quit, haters hate, you are one of them.

PvPers took an undeserved hit during the war against 3rd party software and Bots, and that made me angry, because there was not a level playing field between enhanced and classic, so pvpers had nowhere to go, as the majority will not use enhanced due to the way it looks and plays. Many pvpers quit, because the fun playstyle was gone. We had 3 big PvP guilds, now we only have 2.

PvP is picking up again, yesterday I did a 6 vs 11. PvP needs some love, it could be a slight refresh of VvV rewards. PvP is fun, it needs negative people to get off the case, the fact is, quitters will not come back no matter what. Culture wars just cause negative and bad feelings all round, and that is what you guys do.

The difference between you and I is that you cheat in a 30 year old game because your ego will not allow you to lose. And when you lose with all the cheats you try to blame it on other aspects of the game. The mental gymnastics of you trying to justify your cheating in an almost 30 year old MMO is borderline insanity. The only reason you think you are somebody or 'relevant' is because of these programs and scripts which you constantly admit to running. Never forget.

If you're so much better than everyone without these programs then you should want them to be removed. So what do you say?

cansirus said:

Kyronix said:

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients. It's 2025, and the kids who played UO have grown up. They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate, and if it's because of cheating, put in place better rules or only allow one account per IP.

It sounds contradictory when you say fix cheating by restricting one account per IP, when you know, they could just directly remove the problem client instead?

username said:

cansirus said:

Kyronix said:

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients. It's 2025, and the kids who played UO have grown up. They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate, and if it's because of cheating, put in place better rules or only allow one account per IP.

It sounds contradictory when you say fix cheating by restricting one account per IP, when you know, they could just directly remove the problem client instead?

Different culture different stroke..

Our friend seems to be from south america.. the third party is normalize (a tool) but not the multi client, wich is cheating.. like on Albion I was playing with a lot of Brazilian dudes.. cool dudes.. for them multi client they would visualize a bot farm.. someone sitting in front 20 screens in a server room.

He's saying make them third party legit.. but limit them.. one per person. Give everyone automatization but not an army of bots, u know.

But yeah.. I hated when Blizzard North (one of the best studio of all time with origin system) did that on Diablo.. only one person per household could connect on Bnet.. if u wanna play with your lil bro.. use the LAN option 

Let's not mention the existance of stuff like exitlag (VPN) or other free third party (like before BS permit the multi account on a single PC)
Before to access my mule account at the same time (to transfer beetles, house, etc..) I would use a laptop.. cuz I would refuse to use the multi clienting third party.


I could totally see some shards being "free client"
nothing wrong with that imo.. as to limit them to one per person? Utopia.. for now.

Kyronix very rarely says what I want to hear but I don't b/itch or argue when he communicates.ok maybe about top hats You all blabbing the nonsense over and over expecting changes are just getting threads shut down and attacking unpaid volunteers is worse just stop

KroDuK said:

Mariah answer was made during an eclipse I believe.. she did not see the sun; that war on third party post from the producer in july 2024.. cuz now it's flirting with false advertissement, (more coming soon) considering kyro answer in this post.

It's not flirting with false advertisement; these kinds of things have been said many times over the last 25+ years, and they are said in the numerous other MMOs that I have played during my decade+ break from UO.

In fact, I came across this recently:

Ultima Online: Kingdom Reborn - UOGuide, the Ultima Online Encyclopedia

How will Kingdom Reborn affect scripting, duping, and other methods of cheating?

• We dislike cheating. In fact, it is a seething, burning, boiling cauldron of dislike. Kingdom Reborn gives us the opportunity to make some changes - which we will not discuss in detail, for obvious reasons - that will make cheating more difficult. These changes will affect the entire UO service, not just users of the new client.

------
And similar things were said about the Third Dawn/3D client as well, and things did happen to scripters/etc., but the problem is that because they don't want to reveal what they are doing (and it's obvious as to why they don't want to reveal what they are doing), unless you see monthly subscriptions and EJ account numbers, you and I will never know if or how successful they are.

The bigger problem is that it's a small team, so it's even harder to find time to keep up with the people violating the TOS (and we have people in this thread admitting to scripting) - even the larger MMOs that have dozens or hundreds on their live teams struggle with this.

Because at the end of the day, when there's easy real-life money to be made, there's going to be people who will exert a lot of effort to get at that money.  That's why you see those third-party sites advertising in general chat (and those messages are obviously scripted). I'm not sure why they are allowed to do that, but whatever.  We have 1-2 programmers, but there are a lot of people dedicated to getting the easy money.

We would all love to see this happen again:

That Time We Burned Down Players’ Houses in Ultima Online | by Tim Cotten | Cotten.IO

"Today’s tale: a technical teardown of burning down cheaters’ houses after finding a “criminal” ring of illegal item dupers."

But that had its own problems, as he mentioned, it was easy for innocent people to get caught up in the situation, who had bought items they didn't know were duped.

cansirus said:

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients. It's 2025, and the kids who played UO have grown up. They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate, and if it's because of cheating, put in place better rules or only allow one account per IP.

Lokea said:

How will Kingdom Reborn affect scripting, duping, and other methods of cheating?

• We dislike cheating. In fact, it is a seething, burning, boiling cauldron of dislike. Kingdom Reborn gives us the opportunity to make some changes - which we will not discuss in detail, for obvious reasons - that will make cheating more difficult. These changes will affect the entire UO service, not just users of the new client.

I won't answer to everything.. i'll be here for way too long.. u've said too much, in a way that..

for KR cotten was already working on his bitcoin technology.. the tool he gave to the dev team.. is the same he uses for his bitcoin technology.

The opportunity and all was real.. he deliver something next level for the studio.. a HUGE tool that mesanna has use over the year for various *snip* reasons.


He was teasing a super powerful new weapon..

As for all the rest.. I'll just say what was my experience on UO.. I got multiple speed runners banned (these dudes would frame skip on foot and be as fast as my horse.. u would dismount them and lose them, like they were on a server line; even when u could dismount someone while being mounted)

As for the gatherer.. I've reported over the years a tons of them.. they were never seen again.. to the point it was worthing it for me to take a boat and look for miners on a boat to report them.


Was the game 100% clean? Nope.. u could report someone looping (training skill) on a certain navigation line or craftinf stuff in his house 16/7 all the time and they would not get ban.

You could clearly cheat.. there way a grey line under origin then EA.. but it was never the wild west we seeing since mythic and now BS.. imo.. it's even promoted.. sub as much as u can!!

I mean nothing wrong with that.. but if u can't hide them.. u know.. get F.. they can legit flex them.
Some logic in your next post would be nice.. (the more coming soon.. is the false advert part; since Kyro response) without even considering the title "war".. they have nukes.. I understand why they not launching them.. but.. yeah.. soon!

They have all the tools they need to work on that problem (our problem was a solution for them with that culture).. as for the team.. I'm saying it's too big.. time to clear the affiliates; you save money AND you make even more money with a front store.

KroDuK said:

The last hope I had for UO was the tim cotten era with SA.. but yeah the more info was coming out the more WTF there was among us (the people i was playing with)
To see him quit the sinking boat 1 year later.. he did great stuff for UO tho (like to combat the non affiliates RMT'ers and/or dupers).. but yeah some of those mechanic.. like imbue and how u acquired ingredient.. was.. then the infamous High Sea.. the "booster pack" to promote their new client.. have you ever try to play on high sea with the CC?

Guess what else u were promoting with some of SA mechanics and the totality of high sea.. like u are with those events..

That era wasn't the last "hope" I had for UO, but it was the last hope I had that UO could start to grow in a meaningful way. This 2006 interview kind of summed it up:

Ultima Online: Kingdom Reborn Interview - News and Siteseeing

FiringSquad:Finally, why do a revamp of UO at all when the team could work on a full sequel to the game which might have better graphical features and more content than the original?
Mark Jacobs: Like Dark Age of Camelot, I think there is still plenty of life left in UO. But let's face it, the current graphics of UO are extremely dated and every year that goes by they look even worse by comparison. However, UO is not ready for the scrap heap. I believe that with a full graphical revamp, as well as the addition of lots of other cool new stuff, we have the chance to attract new players to the game, as well as bring back former subscribers.

That was really the last time that UO had a large enough live team to do bigger things, but they made the decision to not upset those who preferred the CC graphics, which is why we are still have the same conversations 18 years later....  Back then, NL would have been done in under a year (maybe 6-9 months even), but NL took a long time because the current team is small and is juggling a lot of things - current/live events, holiday stuff, anniversary stuff, the day-to-day bug fixes and QOL improvements, etc.

Even if you have problems with the current team, they are keeping a 28 year-old MMO that was originally based on early/mid-1990s tech going. It's pretty amazing.

Lokea said:

That was really the last time that UO had a large enough live team to do bigger things, but they made the decision to not upset those who preferred the CC graphics, which is why we are still have the same conversations 18 years later....  Back then, NL would have been done in under a year (maybe 6-9 months even), but NL took a long time because the current team is small and is juggling a lot of things - current/live events, holiday stuff, anniversary stuff, the day-to-day bug fixes and QOL improvements, etc.

Even if you have problems with the current team, they are keeping a 28 year-old MMO that was originally based on early/mid-1990s tech going. It's pretty amazing.

Well said, but i'm seeing solution here..

Like stop avoiding what i'm saying.. don't you agree this is the perfect timing to rework the Bonnie corporate culture around UO?


You seems aware of the problems and even more stuff (like old interviews)
Since you know Cotten.. you know the tools they got.. don't you agree about free client shard would bring even MORE players.. same for the legit shard with zealous GM?

Or what about the affiliates stuff.. can't be answer publicly.. but u should agree it's great for UO front store would earn even more.. and no need to feed a medium size group.. u could reinvest in more dev power.. 2-3 GM..


Let's agree a tons of mistake were made and keep being done.. nothing that can't be fixed, imo.

Edit: i'm still thinking UO could be in the top 10 MMOrpg.. it doesn't need a huge dev team.. with a vision and the guts.. u could make a couple great move.. like they did recently with a third client (i don't like the facebook validation; web client but it's something HUGE for certain)

KroDuK said:

He's saying make them third party legit.. but limit them.. one per person. Give everyone automatization but not an army of bots, u know.

I understand exactly what they're saying but I cannot say what I want to say here... sooo without violating some sort of rules so let's just say the 1 cheat client account per IP clearly won't work. And it's interesting because I would imagine most of the people that use this client would be perfectly happy and laugh at that change, for an obvious reason.

Yeah my bad @username I was white knighting.. I was like maybe he uses google translate and you know different culture. Cuz overall I agree with you and lokea on some of his point.
He said some good stuff tho:

cansirus said:

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients.

We understood the same from kyro.. I was like NOOOOOO!! Do not welcome them! NOT YOU!
You were the one!! *I never thought he would be but we never know!*

Cuz u know kyro never said blocking third party.

cansirus said:

They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate,

or even that.. this is as valid as someone who wants to collect stuff online and ban the cheaters auto farming.. or someone that just want to drop real money.. the beauty of UO we have many shards.. i'd say too many.. 1+1.. timing is perfect for huge moves.

PS: u can also talk about the specific.. like that multi client third party before u could launch multiple client on same PC (that was bypassing the limitation before it was lifted)
It was legit for multiboxing.. I was like dude.. the f.. u start doing that.. what is the point.. I wanna play music.. but not watching notes..

username said:

If you're so much better than everyone without these programs then you should want them to be removed. So what do you say?

I say, after 5 hours of intense pvp, my wrists are killing me the next day.
There are some repetitive actions I am going to automate, to protect my health.
Even younger players I play with believe this, younger players who have seen their parents get RSI etc. Which I do not have, yet, hopefully. Even playing pc games, pvping, it is important to protect your health.

cansirus said:

Kyronix said:

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients. It's 2025, and the kids who played UO have grown up. They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate, and if it's because of cheating, put in place better rules or only allow one account per IP.

I love what you wrote, and agree.

Re the 1 account per IP.
3 players genuinely play from my house.
If UO implemented this, I would find a way around it, and believe I was justified.
I do play with my sons when I get a chance, and that is the most fun thing for me, I am not going to let someone else set rules that do not allow me to do that.

And when I am not playing with them, I am paying for 5 accounts, I should be allowed to upgrade and maintain those accounts ingame - Afterall, when I show up to an event, I am paying 5X more than those around me, I need 5X more gear to gear my accounts, and relatively speaking, I get the same amount of rewards as everyone else, per account.

KroDuK said:

PS: no need to hit on the moderator (the freaking messengers) I knew what I was doing.. even if I disagree with her saying i'm interpreting something.. if u read the war on third party post vs kyro response..

Mariah answer was made during an eclipse I believe.. she did not see the sun; that war on third party post from the producer in july 2024.. cuz now it's flirting with false advertissement, (more coming soon) considering kyro answer in this post.


And no i hvnt watch a 2 hours stream.. even at 2x it's too slow.. i'll just say that, to stay politicly correct; that CM ain't for me.

PS2: they don't need 2 person to replace Mesanna.. no need someone to deal with affiliates with a real EA cash shop.. the solution is soo easy.. cut into the fat make a legit option, keep that event dev in check and u gonna have plenty of fund to hire more dev power.. time to change that Bonnie culture.. time to look forward and up!

The last hope I had for UO was the tim cotten era with SA.. but yeah the more info was coming out the more WTF there was among us (the people i was playing with)
To see him quit the sinking boat 1 year later.. he did great stuff for UO tho (like to combat the non affiliates RMT'ers and/or dupers).. but yeah some of those mechanic.. like imbue and how u acquired ingredient.. was.. then the infamous High Sea.. the "booster pack" to promote their new client.. have you ever try to play on high sea with the CC?

Guess what else u were promoting with some of SA mechanics and the totality of high sea.. like u are with those events..

Agreed, no need to have a go at the moderators, or the Devs.

CM Fenneko is brilliant, there is a picture of her online last night joining in the pvp, me right next to her as we get a kill. 🙂



Messana, I never knew her, she did not communicate much, and my impression was, especially through her actions she did not like pvpers, so it was hard for me to warm to her, but I have never been negative towards her, and respect she did the job she felt she had to do, even through she did not see the point of deleting Trammel or Sampires.

Kyronix has been listening, there is absolutely zero doubt, I have now lost count of the player feedback he has implemented, and he always comes across well, and communicated a bit.
Parallax, is the undiscovered gem, he was "to blame" for a lot of recent items, which in my opinion have been brilliant, and really improved my game style and game play, and feeling in the game.

Mariah and Rorschach are doing a brilliant job, no doubt about it.

CM Fenneko is getting out there twice a week, and joining in whatever is happening. She has joined us on Europa a lot, and it has been cool, even though I miss many of them, because I am so tired from work etc.

username said:

The difference between you and I is that you cheat in a 30 year old game because your ego will not allow you to lose. And when you lose with all the cheats you try to blame it on other aspects of the game. The mental gymnastics of you trying to justify your cheating in an almost 30 year old MMO is borderline insanity. The only reason you think you are somebody or 'relevant' is because of these programs and scripts which you constantly admit to running. Never forget.

I lose an absolute ton, I lose more than people realise. I also win a load more than many people realise.
Yes I have an ego, but it does allow me to lose.
We lose, we review why we lost, we train, we adjust, we get back up, and back into the fight.
Any pvper saying they never die is lying.
The best pvpers, get back up up better than anyone else.
Yes I've got issues with a couple of mechanics, but If I do, I try and put my point across. I'm not trying to ban anyone, or everyone. I've never reported anyone ingame yet, ever. I have however managed to report myself once... I really did not think the GM would action me for reporting myself. 😂

Mariah said:

It has NEVER been policy to forewarn exploiters of any action planned against them, yet you expect it to happen here?

I wish I had the same level of mind reading skill as @ Lord_Nythrax and @ KroDuK

Can I politely request that those two poster stop 'interpreting' devs posts and allow our devs to post without their unhelpful input.

KroDuK said:

cansirus said:

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients. It's 2025, and the kids who played UO have grown up. They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate, and if it's because of cheating, put in place better rules or only allow one account per IP.

I respect you for saying loudly what a lot of users around here been thinking.. the problem here it create a bad balance for open world stuff.. like placing house, PvPing, farming mats/gears, etc etc..

They don't need to ban the cheaters or make cheating legit for everyone (u don't play the game you operate/supervising a machine.. to me it's a big no-no.. those games à la NCSoft already exist)


They could clearly make different rules for different shard tho.. like a free client one.. a CC one (classic style) a non cash shop/RMT one, etc, etc.. on the free client you are gonna see bots like u see them (on every shards) on Legend it's mostly all u see outside the bank.. bots!!
But on a legit shard.. u better hide or u gonna get transfer into a free client shard for cheating, type of stuff. (banworld shard)


PS: no need to hit on the moderator (the freaking messengers) I knew what I was doing.. even if I disagree with her saying i'm interpreting something.. if u read the war on third party post vs kyro response..

Mariah answer was made during an eclipse I believe.. she did not see the sun; that war on third party post from the producer in july 2024.. cuz now it's flirting with false advertissement, (more coming soon) considering kyro answer in this post.


And no i hvnt watch a 2 hours stream.. even at 2x it's too slow.. i'll just say that, to stay politicly correct; that CM ain't for me.

PS2: they don't need 2 person to replace Mesanna.. no need someone to deal with affiliates with a real EA cash shop.. the solution is soo easy.. cut into the fat make a legit option, keep that event dev in check and u gonna have plenty of fund to hire more dev power.. time to change that Bonnie culture.. time to look forward and up!

The last hope I had for UO was the tim cotten era with SA.. but yeah the more info was coming out the more WTF there was among us (the people i was playing with)
To see him quit the sinking boat 1 year later.. he did great stuff for UO tho (like to combat the non affiliates RMT'ers and/or dupers).. but yeah some of those mechanic.. like imbue and how u acquired ingredient.. was.. then the infamous High Sea.. the "booster pack" to promote their new client.. have you ever try to play on high sea with the CC?

Guess what else u were promoting with some of SA mechanics and the totality of high sea.. like u are with those events..

I appreciate your point of view and understand the concern about game balance. I'm not saying that extreme automation is good, but it's undeniable that the gameplay in UO has changed over time. What used to be normal (spending hours farming or searching for a house) is now simply unfeasible for many veteran players who have less time.

Your idea of having different shards with different rules sounds interesting, but don’t you think dividing the player base even further could be an issue? With the current number of players, is there really enough to sustain a Banworld or a "free client" shard without them becoming deserted or, worse, bot farms out of control?

Maybe the solution isn't to block third-party clients or create separate shards, but to improve the official client to include similar quality-of-life tools. This way, the dependency on external programs could be reduced without affecting the game's accessibility. But for that, real development investment would be needed, which, as you mentioned, seems complicated with the current management.

Another issue is the lack of new, well-designed content. Instead of focusing only on automated events where you basically just stand there and hit a monster until it falls, they should add more expansions, more quests, and content that truly makes playing fun, not just endless farming. Lately, events seem designed only to artificially extend the life of the game, rather than offer truly engaging experiences for players.

Unfortunately, the idea of starting a shard from scratch without transferring equipment or items from other shards sounds more viable. This way, everyone would have the opportunity to grow from the same starting point, establish a new economy, and perhaps a new set of rules to make the game fairer and more balanced from the beginning.

And not to mention the Artifacts Rarity, which in theory should be better than normal items, but they’re practically never used, or at least some of them. They should improve these items because, at least in my case, I don’t use rares since I have event gear, and the farming in these events is so easy that it simply outweighs the traditional loot. This makes traditional loot irrelevant and makes many crafting and gathering mechanics pointless."

By the way, I’m curious about your opinion on the SA mechanics and Alta Mar. What do you think went wrong with the progression and balance? Because no doubt, some design decisions left a lot to be desired.

keven2002 said:

All I have to say is.... see what happens when we don't have fresh content to grind towards? The commoners start to argue back and forth over the same crap.

😂

That's not even true at all. The live events, especially the ToTs, are the reason people keep posting about this because the cheating is in plain daylight and NOTHING gets done about it.

Oh and incase anyone is wondering why you page on these players at a ToT ad nauseum and it seems like nothing ever happens and they run 24/7, well... this goes a lot deeper than even the Devs know. They run scripts that integrate with Discord and relay GM prompts to their guild's Discord where they( or others) can reply to GMs. Wouldn't even be surprised if they use some AI API to generate responses for them too. Reason #9000 these clients need to be rid of.... @Kyronix making your support team irrelevant. Hope you have something cooking to rid the insane O client.

It's like some sort of organized crime syndicate in UO. Pretty pathetic


(pic from the discord)

KroDuK said:

Well said, but i'm seeing solution here..

Like stop avoiding what i'm saying.. don't you agree this is the perfect timing to rework the Bonnie corporate culture around UO?

You seems aware of the problems and even more stuff (like old interviews)
Since you know Cotten.. you know the tools they got.. don't you agree about free client shard would bring even MORE players.. same for the legit shard with zealous GM?

Or what about the affiliates stuff.. can't be answer publicly.. but u should agree it's great for UO front store would earn even more.. and no need to feed a medium size group.. u could reinvest in more dev power.. 2-3 GM..

I don't know what the revenue sharing situation is between EA and Broadsword and what trickles down to the UO team. Maybe you do, but I don't.  But having worked for various tech companies, my gut says that if there was a potential for more revenue and Bonnie was standing in the way of that, EA or Broadsword would have removed her many years ago.

It is a chicken and egg scenario - if they could bring on another programmer, designer, and artist, and get them up to speed with how UO works and how to handle UO's quirky "2.5D" layout as Darkscribe called it, we could get more content that could be charged for and that could bring in more revenue and maybe lead to more devs.  But somebody at Broadsword and/or EA would have to sign off on investing hundreds of thousands of dollars into hiring and training new devs (and there would have to be a lot of on-the-job training/shadowing of current devs because UO is unique with its game engine), and a case would have to be made that they will be able to bring in enough revenue to cover their salaries.

I don't know Tim Cotten, I only met him once and that was in passing, but I did follow him while he was on the UO team and after, and even he admitted (including the article I mentioned above), that one has to be wary of consequences on how you deal with the botters/scripters/dupers/etc.

If you create a paid shard that has no rules on clients/scripts/botters/whatever, you have a few problems:

1. It's not good for UO's reputation if we get tied in with the scripters/botters being sanctioned, even if it's only for one shard. Would Blizzard/Microsoft or Square Ennix sanction WOW or FFXIV servers that allow people to run whatever clients they want?
2. Would EA/Broadsword want to let people running any client they want having access to official UO infrastructure? Not that these people can't monitor the data streaming between official clients and official shards, but do you want them to actually be inside the official infrastructure with those clients? Which leads me to 
3. If they are playing on an official/sanctioned shard that has no rules about clients, what happens when they get bored of going up against other people who are using the same tools as they are and either beating or at least matching them or where everybody has bank boxes and castles/keeps/towers full of whatever resource or weapon they could possibly want? They login with their EAMythic account and are presented with a list of production shards that are full of thousands of people who are presumably not using non-sanctioned clients and therefore would be easy pickings. It just seems like you are inviting trouble.

 Is there really a potential paying audience for people who want to play an official shard that sanctions currently illegal clients? This very forum, and potentially this thread, has people mentioning publicly that they use these clients, so why would they want to pay to use a separate shard that is full of people using the same software, because they wouldn't have an advantage in PvP or their bank boxes and houses would be full of everything they want, and they apparently already have the ability to automate a lot.

And I get wanting to automate some stuff - I'm watching my kids work on GMing some stuff for their chars (alchemy, blacksmith, tailoring, and some of the other crafts in particular are tedious) and I'm finally building a true treasure hunter (I always relied on friends who could do the maps and I would provide the muscle). There's a lot of non-fun stuff.  But then again, it's the same thing on FFXIV and WOW, except maybe their questing system makes it seem more tolerable since you are out and about in the world doing various things, while in UO we are sitting in our houses running whatever macros we run through the EC. While I'm posting this, I keep alt-tabbing over to UO to keep my daughter's character working on GMing tailor. It's boring and I keep forgetting that she does have an item limit and the salvage bag needs to be emptied and refilled, etc.

It also seems to me like the people who want to run these clients and play on official shards are already doing that and maybe some of them just want some legitimacy for running those clients on the prodo shards. And when I came back and started reading various sites/forums elsewhere and looked at those shards, I saw a whole lot of people who had no intention of ever coming back to UO.  Many had never even logged onto an official UO shard and had been third-party from the time they started. They are playing free shards that are customized to exactly the era/ruleset they want, why would they want to give up a lot of stuff to come pay to play on an official shard?

KroDuK said:

Let's agree a tons of mistake were made and keep being done.. nothing that can't be fixed, imo.

Edit: i'm still thinking UO could be in the top 10 MMOrpg.. it doesn't need a huge dev team.. with a vision and the guts.. u could make a couple great move.. like they did recently with a third client (i don't like the facebook validation; web client but it's something HUGE for certain)

I think you mean Discord validation for ClassicUO, and I have no problem with that (I would with FB, I got rid of my account, it's as much of a cesspool of misinformation as twitter is). They use Discord to distribute the client, to save your settings across multiple computers (a solid feature as I like having my settings for my account available across multiple computers), and for support/chat.

As for top 10, it would take a massive investment. There's easily a dozen+ MMOs with a million+ players (and arguably there are dozens that have that many players, depending on your definition of MMO). You would have to have a content schedule (and scope) the size that they had up through Stygian Abyss, but it would have to be yearly, matching the first 6-7 years of UO.

More importantly, more clients are not the solution for UO, but the client(s) are the problem with UO. It's insane to think how with KR, they planned on dropping the classic client if it ever hit 95% KR usage.  They knew that while a lot of us were intrigued by the Third Dawn client and even tried it, at the end of the day it didn't move the needle as much as they wanted, and nobody was willing to make the hard decision to pick a single client and stick to making it what it needed to be.

It is what it is. We have to live with the fact that decisions were made 15 or more years ago that affect UO to this day in terms of the playerbase size.  I'm just grateful it's still around for my kids to enjoy.  It's ironic that the graphics don't turn them off, but they grew up on Minecraft and the cartoony vibe of WOW can get old after a while.

username said:

It's like some sort of organized crime syndicate in UO. Pretty pathetic


(pic from the discord)

It really isn't like some sort of organised crime syndicate.

It is more like an old fashioned hobbyist in his basement with a model railway.
You really do blow things out of proportion.

Cookie said:

KroDuK said:

PS: no need to hit on the moderator (the freaking messengers) I knew what I was doing.. even if I disagree with her saying i'm interpreting something.. if u read the war on third party post vs kyro response..

Mariah answer was made during an eclipse I believe.. she did not see the sun; that war on third party post from the producer in july 2024.. cuz now it's flirting with false advertissement, (more coming soon) considering kyro answer in this post.


And no i hvnt watch a 2 hours stream.. even at 2x it's too slow.. i'll just say that, to stay politicly correct; that CM ain't for me.

PS2: they don't need 2 person to replace Mesanna.. no need someone to deal with affiliates with a real EA cash shop.. the solution is soo easy.. cut into the fat make a legit option, keep that event dev in check and u gonna have plenty of fund to hire more dev power.. time to change that Bonnie culture.. time to look forward and up!

The last hope I had for UO was the tim cotten era with SA.. but yeah the more info was coming out the more WTF there was among us (the people i was playing with)
To see him quit the sinking boat 1 year later.. he did great stuff for UO tho (like to combat the non affiliates RMT'ers and/or dupers).. but yeah some of those mechanic.. like imbue and how u acquired ingredient.. was.. then the infamous High Sea.. the "booster pack" to promote their new client.. have you ever try to play on high sea with the CC?

Guess what else u were promoting with some of SA mechanics and the totality of high sea.. like u are with those events..

Agreed, no need to have a go at the moderators, or the Devs.

CM Fenneko is brilliant, there is a picture of her online last night joining in the pvp, me right next to her as we get a kill. 🙂



Messana, I never knew her, she did not communicate much, and my impression was, especially through her actions she did not like pvpers, so it was hard for me to warm to her, but I have never been negative towards her, and respect she did the job she felt she had to do, even through she did not see the point of deleting Trammel or Sampires.

Kyronix has been listening, there is absolutely zero doubt, I have now lost count of the player feedback he has implemented, and he always comes across well, and communicated a bit.
Parallax, is the undiscovered gem, he was "to blame" for a lot of recent items, which in my opinion have been brilliant, and really improved my game style and game play, and feeling in the game.

Mariah and Rorschach are doing a brilliant job, no doubt about it.

CM Fenneko is getting out there twice a week, and joining in whatever is happening. She has joined us on Europa a lot, and it has been cool, even though I miss many of them, because I am so tired from work etc.

AtomicBetty said:

Can I ask why Cookie hasn't been banned from the forums yet? Always is admitting to using scripts in PvP, posts screenshots constantly of the illegal clients and is trying to defend the use of automated gameplay.

I really don't see why he is still around

Because unlike the rest of you, I am not a hypocrite, or lying, and, I am actively playing, and enjoying the game, and, I am giving decent genuine feedback.

Lot to be said for positive attitude and view in life, as opposed to negative people, forever trying to get people banned, cancelled, pull people down.

Some of you guys don't seem to realize that it's over. Cheaters won. The developers were stomped out and humiliated. Paid accounts won't be banned even when they publicly and openly cheat on a daily basis for months on end. The TOS has basically been shredded and cast down, except in the imaginations of forum moderators looking for reasons to delete posts.

The terms of service for the game and forums are totally separate and distinct things. 

AtomicBetty said:

Cookie said:

KroDuK said:

PS: no need to hit on the moderator (the freaking messengers) I knew what I was doing.. even if I disagree with her saying i'm interpreting something.. if u read the war on third party post vs kyro response..

Mariah answer was made during an eclipse I believe.. she did not see the sun; that war on third party post from the producer in july 2024.. cuz now it's flirting with false advertissement, (more coming soon) considering kyro answer in this post.


And no i hvnt watch a 2 hours stream.. even at 2x it's too slow.. i'll just say that, to stay politicly correct; that CM ain't for me.

PS2: they don't need 2 person to replace Mesanna.. no need someone to deal with affiliates with a real EA cash shop.. the solution is soo easy.. cut into the fat make a legit option, keep that event dev in check and u gonna have plenty of fund to hire more dev power.. time to change that Bonnie culture.. time to look forward and up!

The last hope I had for UO was the tim cotten era with SA.. but yeah the more info was coming out the more WTF there was among us (the people i was playing with)
To see him quit the sinking boat 1 year later.. he did great stuff for UO tho (like to combat the non affiliates RMT'ers and/or dupers).. but yeah some of those mechanic.. like imbue and how u acquired ingredient.. was.. then the infamous High Sea.. the "booster pack" to promote their new client.. have you ever try to play on high sea with the CC?

Guess what else u were promoting with some of SA mechanics and the totality of high sea.. like u are with those events..

Agreed, no need to have a go at the moderators, or the Devs.

CM Fenneko is brilliant, there is a picture of her online last night joining in the pvp, me right next to her as we get a kill. 🙂



Messana, I never knew her, she did not communicate much, and my impression was, especially through her actions she did not like pvpers, so it was hard for me to warm to her, but I have never been negative towards her, and respect she did the job she felt she had to do, even through she did not see the point of deleting Trammel or Sampires.

Kyronix has been listening, there is absolutely zero doubt, I have now lost count of the player feedback he has implemented, and he always comes across well, and communicated a bit.
Parallax, is the undiscovered gem, he was "to blame" for a lot of recent items, which in my opinion have been brilliant, and really improved my game style and game play, and feeling in the game.

Mariah and Rorschach are doing a brilliant job, no doubt about it.

CM Fenneko is getting out there twice a week, and joining in whatever is happening. She has joined us on Europa a lot, and it has been cool, even though I miss many of them, because I am so tired from work etc.

Can I ask why Cookie hasn't been banned from the forums yet? Always is admitting to using scripts in PvP, posts screenshots constantly of the illegal clients and is trying to defend the use of automated gameplay.

I really don't see why he is still around

I've been gone for a hot minute, do lumber jacks actually have the ability to chop trees down? Like they can change the terrain? Or is that a new location in that image? 

Rorschach said:

The terms of service for the game and forums are totally separate and distinct things. 

Cookie said:

AtomicBetty said:

Can I ask why Cookie hasn't been banned from the forums yet? Always is admitting to using scripts in PvP, posts screenshots constantly of the illegal clients and is trying to defend the use of automated gameplay.

I really don't see why he is still around

Because unlike the rest of you, I am not a hypocrite, or lying, and, I am actively playing, and enjoying the game, and, I am giving decent genuine feedback.

Lot to be said for positive attitude and view in life, as opposed to negative people, forever trying to get people banned, cancelled, pull people down.

Yes let’s summer things down and avoid personal insults. Like everyone’s perspective, Cookie’s is valid, as are his alt accounts’ when he was temporarily banned after the first attempt to block logging in with third-party clients.

At the end of the day, I’m glad the game is alive, and there’s so little left where one player’s cheating truly adversely affects another anyway. It’s just a shame that we are seeing this topic reveal yet another deficit between official UO and private servers where even private servers are cracking down on clients that may be used and what scripts may be employed.

loop said:

Yes let’s summer things down and avoid personal insults. Like everyone’s perspective, Cookie’s is valid, as are his alt accounts’ when he was temporarily banned after the first attempt to block logging in with third-party clients.

At the end of the day, I’m glad the game is alive, and there’s so little left where one player’s cheating truly adversely affects another anyway. It’s just a shame that we are seeing this topic reveal yet another deficit between official UO and private servers where even private servers are cracking down on clients that may be used and what scripts may be employed.

I would rather the game die if they can't fix the problem which they already had a fix for but threw a softball instead of actually taking action on these accounts. 

As far as cheating affecting players you must be as delusional as some of the other posters are. The core mechanics that DEFINE this game, PVP, IDOCS, etc., are all destroyed. You wonder why you can't place a 18x18 on Atlantic yet one guy is selling a dozen at any time, can't do a Fel spawn without Discord ghost cams sounding alerts, can't do a TOT without the amount of bots lagging the servers to a snails pace or even sell the items from them for a reasonable price. They've decimated the economy and made any profitable activity to a normal player worthless. I can't think of anything that these clients haven't ruined. Are you ok bud? Maybe your post was sarcasm "Like everyone’s perspective, Cookie’s is valid" seems like sarcasm I hope it was.

Hey now, username. I was being cheeky

Cookie said:

CM Fenneko is brilliant, there is a picture of her online last night joining in the pvp, me right next to her as we get a kill. 🙂

You must really dislike her for doing that to her.. or the studio and their TOS, if she's not taking any action on you right now.


@covenantx we're on the same boat.. I log ~3 times since dec 7th?
Open 2 doors for 2houses and disconnect.. at this point i'm just keeping them up cuz I upgraded my potato.. gonna record better footage on stream. 

cansirus said:

don’t you think dividing the player base even further could be an issue?

Logicly, I totally agree with you, but right now.. for the West we have like 1-ATL, 2-EU then 3-Pac (something along those line) as top 3 shards.. most of the remaining are ghost town; if u don't count the bots and multi client. They have plenty of room to at least try.

cansirus said:

Maybe the solution isn't to block third-party clients or create separate shards, but to improve the official client to include similar quality-of-life tools. This way, the dependency on external programs could be reduced without affecting the game's accessibility.

For that you have EC+Pinco.. You can automate A LOT of stuff and still be legit.
Here, consider this:

Lokea said:

they made the decision to not upset those who preferred the CC graphics, which is why we are still having the same conversations 18 years later....

When Mythic came in.. they wanted a new hype 3d client... we should consider ourselves lucky to still be able to play on the CC, at this point.
This is one of many mistakes from the past.. if today, they make the CC a good option and does real work on it.. it would be consider a corporate failure since ~2006 (mythic era.. same to this day).. It would take big cojones and some money to do that.. like work on a legit up to date add-on.

This is one of those obvious fix that contribute to the downfall of UO since ~18years.. they would be 9 players total to still be using the EC if the CC had a legit equivalent.. but BS and mythic.. same corporate culture (just a different name).. no one wants to make that kind of noise at BS.. cuz, let's be honest; they kept digging by investing time&effort/money into a "3d" third dawn/KR/EC while ignoring that much the goat.

They know what they doing at BS.. like the follow option only being on the CC.. is such a snake move.. they clearly do not want that on their baby client.. it's been added for obvious BAD reason.. another cover up.

cansirus said:

Unfortunately, the idea of starting a shard from scratch without transferring equipment or items from other shards sounds more viable. This way, everyone would have the opportunity to grow from the same starting point, establish a new economy, and perhaps a new set of rules to make the game fairer and more balanced from the beginning.

On paper this is New Legacy for you.. I was pumped.. only reason I came back.. go test it out.. just lower your expectation.. this is not UO.

cansirus said:

By the way, I’m curious about your opinion on the SA mechanics and Alta Mar. What do you think went wrong with the progression and balance? Because no doubt, some design decisions left a lot to be desired.

SA did hurt A LOT the Magic Finder.. farming mobs with high luck.. it became very limited and very heavy (soo many mods, it would be longer to loot than kill the mobs, very heavy, way less fun to play the game, almost painful to do MF run).. while nerfing the entire content.. mainstreaming build that should have never been easy to gear up and ultimately handing the economy to the bots for good with their imbuing ingredients.. except peerless everything was meant to be automated with the EC.. then came Alta Mar wich was the final nail to the legit CC.. a big F U!

username said:

keven2002 said:

All I have to say is.... see what happens when we don't have fresh content to grind towards? The commoners start to argue back and forth over the same crap.

😂

That's not even true at all. The live events, especially the ToTs, are the reason people keep posting about this because the cheating is in plain daylight and NOTHING gets done about it.

Oh and incase anyone is wondering why you page on these players at a ToT ad nauseum and it seems like nothing ever happens and they run 24/7, well... this goes a lot deeper than even the Devs know. They run scripts that integrate with Discord and relay GM prompts to their guild's Discord where they( or others) can reply to GMs. Wouldn't even be surprised if they use some AI API to generate responses for them too. Reason #9000 these clients need to be rid of.... @ Kyronix making your support team irrelevant. Hope you have something cooking to rid the insane O client.

It's like some sort of organized crime syndicate in UO. Pretty pathetic


(pic from the discord)

Discord made those cheaters so much happier.. a studio like SBI with Albion online.. ChosenOne (the CM) would have them shut down.. People were using discord as a Radar (map hack) and use them for some alert.. like here.. when it ping them if a GM page them.

CM Fenneko have the power of getting those discord ban.. they would need to start hidding and filtering on those discord. Instead of promoting.

Lokea said:

I think you mean Discord validation for ClassicUO, and I have no problem with that (I would with FB, I got rid of my account, it's as much of a cesspool of misinformation as twitter is). They use Discord to distribute the client, to save your settings across multiple computers (a solid feature as I like having my settings for my account available across multiple computers), and for support/chat.

We will need to get on vocal one day to talk about UO.. so much stuff I would say.. and I could come out as rude, in text.

I said Facebook validation cuz both FB and Discord are own by meta.. Facebook is just more safe/secure overall, cuz they have to and i'd argue with you on the cesspool..in those 3 (twitter include): discord wins, imo.
It's like irony when I say FB validation for CUO client.. some people really dislike FB but LOVE discord.. when in fact.. same; just less supervise by meta.

loop said:Like everyone’s perspective, Cookie’s is valid, as are his alt accounts’ when he was temporarily banned after the first attempt to block logging in with third-party clients.

For the record, they were not my Alt accounts. I've said it many times before, you guys really have comprehension, and many other issues. I have no idea who they were. You guys in your enclosed forum bubble may find it hard to agree, but a huge amount of players ingame agree with my perspective.
I can attempt to prove it, by posting on my actual Alt accounts, everyone knows I have 5 accounts, I will do a first post on each of them, which I may find hard, as I have never attempted to post on the forums with them before.


Re this, no I don't dislike her a lot, I said the opposite, I meant it. The screenshot is what it is, I was playing the game, that is how it came out, I had forgotten about the tree's ofc. But I don't see the big deal, everyone knows my perspective on this - it is a request I have made under PvP - Vision on the PvP boards.

KroDuK said:

You must really dislike her for doing that to her.. or the studio and their TOS, if she's not taking any action on you right now.

username said:

Oh and incase anyone is wondering why you page on these players at a ToT ad nauseum and it seems like nothing ever happens and they run 24/7, well... this goes a lot deeper than even the Devs know. They run scripts that integrate with Discord and relay GM prompts to their guild's Discord where they( or others) can reply to GMs. Wouldn't even be surprised if they use some AI API to generate responses for them too.
It's like some sort of organized crime syndicate in UO. Pretty pathetic


(pic from the discord)

This one here, probably has the mafia quaking in their boots.

So recently, I needed to restock my VvV potions, and when you get 10 supernova kegs, and have to double-click each one 10 times, that is 100 double-clicks to empty the kegs into 100 separate potions that you then need to pick up individually and place them on your storage container to get them to stack. So the process of emptying 10 VvV kegs is 200 clicks, followed by 100 drag and drops = 300 separate motions.

I myself decided, no way, this is too much now, I don't have the time in my life to be doing this, so I set-up an organiser agent to do this. This guy, has set-up a script.

Let's talk rationally. Some players are seeing a need for this. Some do not get involved in this part of the game, and do not see a need. Some people may be happy to sit there doing 300 repetitive motions for 10 kegs, and that was only for 10 kegs, I want 100 kegs, or more.

If the Devs were communicating with us more, and we were able to put these requests in - ie for an Organiser Agent - add this to my pvp request list please - we would not be finding solutions ourselves.

I do not see how this script is impacting on players pvp abilities.

He is making millions in ill-gotten gains here.

I don't even see the point in this one, this process is easy enough, that I fill my first aid belt with 1000 bandages, and it lasts me long enough.

I accept some of them may take gaming automation too far, but in general - No.

Repair Gear - My most hated task ingame, I have ranted on forever about this, antique brittle, 30 different items, on 30 different characters, every second of my playing time, something else needs repairing. I've finally completed my 20 year quest on my PvPer - my PvP suit is fully Blessed, with fully Repairable or Non Dura loss items. This gets me over the Repair Gear pain, which for pvpers is a lot, as we are destroying our gear the whole time. Repair Gear has become a chore for many of us, a problem we have raised, and now people are finding ways to minimise the pain.

Sigil Thief - He cannot even spell this one, and to be fair, the guy who did this has an IQ of about 10, and irrelevant in PvP, so if he can do this stuff, anyone can. This is probably going too far in gaming terms - BUT, the activity is in Felucca, I regularly find, and kill these guys, problem dealt with, I do not need to complain to anyone.

Silver Farmer - the same, in Felucca, I will kill him.

Restock Vendors/Get Vendor gold - cannot blame him, boring repetitive task. Many players probably using tools to help them here, and do not consider themselves cheats.

Seed Farmer/Petal Farmer, Yes I get it, I need to set this one up for myself, the process is seriously painful with mass Garden Beds.

Mops PvP. I've never heard of him, or witnessed him, he cannot be anything special. 🙂

Collecting River Moss for Barrab Potions etc - I get it, boring, long winded task for those trying to play the game.

Etc.

My point is, look at the underlying reasons.
But is any of this, coming out as an organised crime syndicate?
Or just a guy making his life a bit more fun to play by automating tedious tasks.

KroDuK said:

Lokea said:

I think you mean Discord validation for ClassicUO, and I have no problem with that (I would with FB, I got rid of my account, it's as much of a cesspool of misinformation as twitter is). They use Discord to distribute the client, to save your settings across multiple computers (a solid feature as I like having my settings for my account available across multiple computers), and for support/chat.

I said Facebook validation cuz both FB and Discord are own by meta.. Facebook is just more safe/secure overall, cuz they have to and i'd argue with you on the cesspool..in those 3 (twitter include): discord wins, imo.
It's like irony when I say FB validation for CUO client.. some people really dislike FB but LOVE discord.. when in fact.. same; just less supervise by meta.

 Can you show me where Meta/Facebook owns Discord? I would love to read more about that.

As for the cesspool part, my senior citizen parents and aunts/uncles and my elderly aunts/uncles are not on Discord, but they are on Facebook, and I have friends and younger relatives on twitter, and they are constantly bombarded with misinformation and disinformation by celebrities and bot farms and they constantly repost it/amplify it, even when I easily poke holes in what they are pushing.  Neither FB or twitter are interested in stopping the disinformation and misinformation by the influencers and bot farms, because they are making money off of it.

Lokea said:

KroDuK said:

Lokea said:

I think you mean Discord validation for ClassicUO, and I have no problem with that (I would with FB, I got rid of my account, it's as much of a cesspool of misinformation as twitter is). They use Discord to distribute the client, to save your settings across multiple computers (a solid feature as I like having my settings for my account available across multiple computers), and for support/chat.

I said Facebook validation cuz both FB and Discord are own by meta.. Facebook is just more safe/secure overall, cuz they have to and i'd argue with you on the cesspool..in those 3 (twitter include): discord wins, imo.
It's like irony when I say FB validation for CUO client.. some people really dislike FB but LOVE discord.. when in fact.. same; just less supervise by meta.

 Can you show me where Meta/Facebook owns Discord? I would love to read more about that.

As for the cesspool part, my senior citizen parents and aunts/uncles and my elderly aunts/uncles are not on Discord, but they are on Facebook, and I have friends and younger relatives on twitter, and they are constantly bombarded with misinformation and disinformation by celebrities and bot farms and they constantly repost it/amplify it, even when I easily poke holes in what they are pushing.  Neither FB or twitter are interested in stopping the disinformation and misinformation by the influencers and bot farms, because they are making money off of it.

KroDuK said:

We will need to get on vocal one day to talk about UO.. so much stuff I would say.. and I could come out as rude, in text.

I'd probably agree with you more than you think. While it's easy to re-ignite the client wars, at least we did have the 2006-2007 team go through and work on every single tile in the game (literally) and I'm grateful they at least did do a lot of high-res work to get the old artwork improved.

The fact is the die was cast when EA cancelled Ultima Worlds: Origin, aka UO2, back in 2001 and didn't sink the freed-up resources into overhauling the whole game and instead just put them into generating more revenue through expansions, and then when they didn't make some hard decisions in the KR/SA era. At the end of the day, UO is what it is because of what EA management did in 2001-2007.

So here we are, and as I said, I'm grateful and amazed that 5-6 people are keeping a 28 year-old MMO going.

KroDuK said:

Logicly, I totally agree with you, but right now.. for the West we have like 1-ATL, 2-EU then 3-Pac (something along those line) as top 3 shards.. most of the remaining are ghost town; if u don't count the bots and multi client. They have plenty of room to at least try.

They have the room to try because it's cheap to spin up a new server on Amazon. 

I know you are not implying that they should experiment on shards that aren't ATL/EU/PAC, but some people have implied that, regardless of the fact that those shards have their players who have their houses, etc. and are paying for those shards to stay up and not be messed with. Messing with those shards is a good way to start losing thousands of dollars in monthly revenue when the cost to spin up a new server on Amazon is very cheap and very easy.

I don't know what their long-term plan for NL is, but I'll be curious if they are able to take the code and do other experimental shards/rulesets.

@Cookie I enjoy how you are purposely being dense. I specifically mention in that post that they are rendering the support staff useless. The key hint is the paragraph I made about it and putting a red box around the one option in mspaint.

Yes, people do enjoy doing tedious tasks, in game and real life. Why? Because not many people like to do it and it adds value to their game play. Some may enjoy fishing 8 hours a day in game, other may enjoy 8 hours of dungeon-ing, others 8 hours of making potions. And the fact that they're the few that do it and enjoy it add value to what they do. They can take their passion make gold off it and trade for something they dislike doing. When it's all automated, like what you're suggesting, what little gold they can make for the huge waste of time they lose. These are the legitimate players, the core of the player base.

Let's take MOBAS and Shooter games for an example.

In MOBAs The skill is being able to multi task and have game knowledge that only comes with playing. MOBAs such as DOTA2 with complex characters as Invoker or Techies, difficult skill shots such as Pudge hook, etc etc. Having map awareness, having up to 6 items in your inventory that have long cool downs but very powerful abilities, weaving abilities in correct order, using buffs, killing monsters in the jungle, keeping timers on everything. That's skill. What you're doing in UO is equivalent to MOBAS using a maphack, a program to automatically use items for you, and a program to move your character around for you. All your doing is occasionally clicking.

Being able to throw pop flashes in CS2 or know smoke lineups/pixel gaps. Crosshair placement, movement. The skill comes from game knowledge and play time. Actual skill. What you do in UO is the equivalent of having a shooter game move, buy, aim, use utility, and all you are doing is clicking a button when the crosshair automagically goes over people's heads. 

And that's what you're missing. When you automate any of these things it's cheating and you can cope and seethe and make excuses all you want but you're still cheating. When you rant on and on and on about how good of a PVPer you are don't forget no one asked and no one cares. But you'll surely never understand this, all you care about is afk botting with your dozen toons and being a l33t PVPer with zero skill. You are nothing without your 3rd party program crutches, never forget. You have minimal skill in the game.

username said:

And that's what you're missing when you rant on and on and on about how good of a PVPer you are. No one asked, buddy, and no one cares. But you'll surely never understand this, all you care about is afk botting with your dozen toons and being a l33t PVPer with zero skill. You are nothing without your 3rd party program crutches, never forget. You have minimal skill in the game.

I do love this. 🙂


If person A presses a button 300 times to empty 10 kegs, and person B presses 1 button, does it genuinely make person A a better and more skilful potion stacker?

Cookie said:

If person A presses a button 300 times to empty 10 kegs, and person B presses 1 button, does it genuinely make person A a better and more skilful potion stacker?

Absolutely. And never forget you're player B.

username said:

Cookie said:

If person A presses a button 300 times to empty 10 kegs, and person B presses 1 button, does it genuinely make person A a better and more skilful potion stacker?

Absolutely. And never forget you're player B.

In my world, I would want to be player B these days, and use the time I save for other more fun stuff. 🙂

Cookie said:

username said:

Cookie said:

If person A presses a button 300 times to empty 10 kegs, and person B presses 1 button, does it genuinely make person A a better and more skilful potion stacker?

Absolutely. And never forget you're player B.

In my world, I would want to be player B these days, and use the time I save for other more fun stuff. 🙂

Cool. Then we agree. Feel free to bot menial tasks, training skills or creating potions for self usage, and time in PVP = time in PVP either way and PVP requires skill, so stop cheating in PVP.

🙂

Cookie said:

I accept some of them may take gaming automation too far, but in general - No.

 😂

You want to see some of my experience during last event; like raw footage? I PvPed 16 differents character multiple time on Legend in ~10 days.. a single dude was not frame skipping all over the place.


How u are trying to rationalise; for crafting stuff.. is HILARIOUS... who care if u loop something in your house (like emptying a keg) like c'mon bra!

Lokea said:

KroDuK said:

Lokea said:

I think you mean Discord validation for ClassicUO, and I have no problem with that (I would with FB, I got rid of my account, it's as much of a cesspool of misinformation as twitter is). They use Discord to distribute the client, to save your settings across multiple computers (a solid feature as I like having my settings for my account available across multiple computers), and for support/chat.

I said Facebook validation cuz both FB and Discord are own by meta.. Facebook is just more safe/secure overall, cuz they have to and i'd argue with you on the cesspool..in those 3 (twitter include): discord wins, imo.
It's like irony when I say FB validation for CUO client.. some people really dislike FB but LOVE discord.. when in fact.. same; just less supervise by meta.

 Can you show me where Meta/Facebook owns Discord? I would love to read more about that.

It's another rabbit hole 

Officially they're "independant" but if u dig a bit.. u got hint like their subcontract or reading this article: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/discord-actually-metaverse-company-michael-spencer-#:~:text=Discord is Actually a Metaverse Company


They are as independant as Ashes of creation.. it is as real as the non existant yew tram grey zone. 

Lokea said:

KroDuK said:

We will need to get on vocal one day to talk about UO.. so much stuff I would say.. and I could come out as rude, in text.

The fact is the die was cast when EA cancelled Ultima Worlds: Origin, aka UO2, back in 2001

So here we are, and as I said, I'm grateful and amazed that 5-6 people are keeping a 28 year-old MMO going.

The EA president that cancel those 3 MMO (wing's commander, UO2 and Harry Potter)
is still out of touch today.. when he tried to charge big money to the dev for using unity  😂

As for the number u bringing.. u should realise.. even a game like The Elder Scroll Online.. a few weeks after the launch.. they were 6 dev to run the game.. work on bug and fixes while working on new content. (u also have interviews of that the release recently; for their 10 years anni)

KroDuK said:

Cookie said:

I accept some of them may take gaming automation too far, but in general - No.

How u are trying to rationalise; for crafting stuff.. is HILARIOUS... who care if u loop something in your house (like emptying a keg) like c'mon bra!

Realize how @Cookie didn't respond to my last post? It's pretty funny. They got caught in their own awful circular logic: tried to compare the botting they do and automated PVP to making potions in their house, justifying it by saying 'oh it saves time to do fun things' and 'it takes no skill so why not'... but then you point out they also massively cheat in PVP where saving time isn't a thing and there's a very high ceiling for (legitimate) skill and they shut down. It's what we call delusional.

Cookie irl from my last post:

lol, let's be real here.. Cookie said in the past the ONLY automation he uses for PvP is the trap box.. cuz he's a skilled user.. the other automation slow him down.. he is that good.

When the dev ban his client for ~2 days.. he was on the forum saying he was closing his 5 accounts (saying no one was PvPing anymore).. I was like bro.. u just need to do a trap box macro.. arn't u that good?


Personally I was very pleased by the new automation to craft a stack of potion.. such a breath of fresh air.. but things like doing BODS.. I mean.. i'm clearly a dumb dumb for not cheating and organising them manually.. all we need to make BODS legit friendly would be a name filter in those books.. but UI stuff is a big job dev wise.. it's easy for them to close their eyes.. but at what point don't u realised UO is such a good game with a tons of content (right 95% of the content is now ruined cuz of power creeping.. a problem that keeps getting worse with those events) it could be a top 10 most played in 2025.

But yeah.. the timing is perfect to make huge move.. like a front EA store that sells gold.. what is killing me ain't the old mistakes.. but the new one and the miss opportunity.. like freaking NL 


PS: for the potion.. this is a fact tho.. I was used to fill keg.. but with their new craft stack option for potions.. u'd have to be dumb to use Keg.. if the VvV potion come into a keg.. something need to be address instead of cheating.. but u know.. way easier to close your eyes.

keven2002 said:

I don't know much about them at all so I have no idea how they work (assuming some sort of scrapper tool sends things to Discord?)

Example on Albion Online.. radar was a problem for the black zone (free PvP zones with guild hideout and valuable resources on a long respawn timer)


The dev did the mist for small size to medium size guild.. You have map (with mobs/resource and room to build hideout) link to each others by roads.. these roads reset everyday.. everyday the road changes.. it's randomize.. u have new neighboors with new valuable zone around you, everyday.

People using a third party and VIA a discord channel, they can share among them the new roads layout; they need to explore it themselves first, everyday.. cuz the SBI server sending very limited info to our client.. and those cheater cannot grab the entire new map layout from the client.. so they share those info (via third party program) using discord... it's all automated.. 20 min after server maintenance, they got a full layout/map hack.. to snipe valuable stuff or ennemies.

Getting those discord shut down was a huge hit for those cheaters.

As to talk with GM.. a game like T4C (the nightmare revolution server)
You can legit talk on the in game main chat.. by typing on a specific discord channel (this was dev by the dev, legit tool here)

You could be sun bathing and talking to a UO GM on your phone, via discord, with your bots while they are grinding.. if u don't trust an AI.

KroDuK said:

The EA president that cancel those 3 MMO (wing's commander, UO2 and Harry Potter)

Still blows my mind that EA canceled a Harry Potter MMO in the early 2000s when the movies were literally coming out every year for several years, and there were still a few books that had not been finished and published yet.

This is our genius: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Riccitiello

You can find many article online on why he decided to cancel Harry Potter MMO (he was ultimately the one that took the decision)


I heard UO 2 was cancelled to not compete with the first UO.

As for Privateer Online (the wing's commander MMO) it would have been a dated star citizen but mostly the dog fight part.


Edit: about this genius.. pretty sure he got fired after that scandal; when he tried to charge big money for dev working under unity.. I say fire but those guy usually leave the company by their own will with a fat check.

KroDuK said:

Cookie said:

I accept some of them may take gaming automation too far, but in general - No.

 😂

You want to see some of my experience during last event; like raw footage? I PvPed 16 differents character multiple time on Legend in ~10 days.. a single dude was not frame skipping all over the place.


How u are trying to rationalise; for crafting stuff.. is HILARIOUS... who care if u loop something in your house (like emptying a keg) like c'mon bra!

You saw from the script book, the type of scripts the big bad pvper from the organised crime syndicate was using. They were mostly menial crafting stuff - this is what you guys are getting so worked up about, and trying to ban basically.

username said:

KroDuK said:

Cookie said:

I accept some of them may take gaming automation too far, but in general - No.

How u are trying to rationalise; for crafting stuff.. is HILARIOUS... who care if u loop something in your house (like emptying a keg) like c'mon bra!

Realize how @ Cookie didn't respond to my last post? It's pretty funny. They got caught in their own awful circular logic: tried to compare the botting they do and automated PVP to making potions in their house, justifying it by saying 'oh it saves time to do fun things' and 'it takes no skill so why not'... but then you point out they also massively cheat in PVP where saving time isn't a thing and there's a very high ceiling for (legitimate) skill and they shut down. It's what we call delusional.

Cookie irl from my last post:

I did not reply, because I saw nothing of note to reply to?
I was not bothered by it, I was prepared to let you have the last word, I'd made my points.

I was not caught out on anything - I had in fact got you guys to the point you were saying it was ok to do menial crafting tasks - therefore, it was you guys who were in fact caught out on your own witch-hunt.
Because that is what I have been arguing for.
You were the one who provided the script book as evidence for wanting to ban half the players of the game - I discussed the contents rationally.

KroDuK said:

PS: for the potion.. this is a fact tho.. I was used to fill keg.. but with their new craft stack option for potions.. u'd have to be dumb to use Keg.. if the VvV potion come into a keg.. something need to be address instead of cheating.. but u know.. way easier to close your eyes.

Everything I say is fact, it's just a case of if you can see it or not.

You will have seen how many queries I raise, and how many things I try to get addressed.
For example - the level of detail I went to, describing the unloading VvV keg process to the Devs, and why it could be considered unreasonable, and therefore support script usage.

In the meantime, I just fix my issues, not try to get everyone banned.

Every time Cookie responds to one of KroDuk’s easy-to-follow-and-not-at-all-meandering posts >xD

I think this has gone on long enough