ORE AND WOOD

 And can we return ore and wood locations back to static and make LJ and Mining not just a scripter only activity. 

We've talked about this at great length.  One of the biggest downsides to static ore/wood locations is that it opens the door for higher end ore & wood locations to become monopolized, which was often the case before the randomization.  That being said, we've talked about some alternatives to the base resource collection simulation to address all the concerns (repetition, scripting etc) involved but nothing concrete to report.  We welcome discussion on the topic though!  

Would be nice to be able to craft sandstone building parts. Sandstone ore?

Seems to me once static locations are located they would be hard to monopolize as sooner or later everyone will know where they are and just like before they were randomized the resource would be split between anyone hitting it.  Plus the fel spots were fun to camp and kill the scripters.

Yeah would rather not have static back..I still have all my old mining runebooks...the fact that a script can just recall and mine out one particular resource is not good...the way it is now is not good either! lol but with the prospector tool and other things we have available to us to at least upgrade while gathering helps...even if it's only a little bit.

I'm not sure how the coding works, but maybe just even small interruptions while gathering....to potentially ~break~ a script...though I don't know how those work either...something like..after so many digs with a shovel or swings of an axe you get tired...or you need to pee lol or you're thirsty so you have to stop to take a break..have a pop-up that gives you options...are you thirsty? Then click on ~Drink Water~....something to deter the scripts...maybe I have no idea just throwing ideas around.

Larisa, I like that idea.  

Larisa  Jagex tried those interruptions way back and they were universally hated, don't know how it turned out I left and went back to UO.   As it is now the scripter just fills a runebook with random spot and presses play on the recall script and runs for 23 hours.  I pretty much quit mining except for salt peter and started farming merch ships where you get val, verite and ag about 200X faster than trying to mine it.   I have Zero interest in all the junk added to make mining less painful.  I started UO as a miner/crafter and would at least like to still be able to enjoy mining since crafting is dead when compared to loot items.

I also kept my old mining books in hopes of one day they would be useful, but with imbuing these days metal armor is a thing of the past for most players.  And only Stone is needed today.  I like the idea of sandstone, maybe get a rock when digging up sand?

I sure would like mining to go back to the way it was, as I also have all my mining books 

LOL us resource gatherers....we all kept our mining books..I didn't keep mine in the hopes they would turn it back to the way it was, because even if they do, there is no guarantee that the spots would be the same...I kept mine for posterity and the memories of things long past 🙂

Kyronix said:

We've talked about this at great length.  One of the biggest downsides to static ore/wood locations is that it opens the door for higher end ore & wood locations to become monopolized, which was often the case before the randomization.  That being said, we've talked about some alternatives to the base resource collection simulation to address all the concerns (repetition, scripting etc) involved but nothing concrete to report.  We welcome discussion on the topic though!  

Yeah we wouldn't want ore locations to be  Monopolized...sincerely, Power Scroll locations.

Garth_Grey said:

Kyronix said:

We've talked about this at great length.  One of the biggest downsides to static ore/wood locations is that it opens the door for higher end ore & wood locations to become monopolized, which was often the case before the randomization.  That being said, we've talked about some alternatives to the base resource collection simulation to address all the concerns (repetition, scripting etc) involved but nothing concrete to report.  We welcome discussion on the topic though!  

Yeah we wouldn't want ore locations to be  Monopolized...sincerely, Power Scroll locations.

Apples and oranges. 

Merlin said:

Garth_Grey said:

Kyronix said:

We've talked about this at great length.  One of the biggest downsides to static ore/wood locations is that it opens the door for higher end ore & wood locations to become monopolized, which was often the case before the randomization.  That being said, we've talked about some alternatives to the base resource collection simulation to address all the concerns (repetition, scripting etc) involved but nothing concrete to report.  We welcome discussion on the topic though!  

Yeah we wouldn't want ore locations to be  Monopolized...sincerely, Power Scroll locations.

Apples and oranges. 

Not really, both are a resource when you get right down to it.  

I would prefer static locations vs what we have now.

I dont see why static higher ned ore and wood locations would become monopolized. Everyone can go to trammel spots and mine without much trouble. You can even block scripter recall spots. Spots in Felucca could even bring a small portion of PvP which was fun in the past. I was mining and lumbering a lot in the days of static Ore and wood spots, but after the change i went mining and lumbering about 10 times in 10 years, because its not really worth. If we talk about monopolizing, the scripters got the ore and lumber monopol atm. I would like to destroy it with static ore and lumber spots and give us active miners and lumbers some fun back.

I don't think going back to Static is a good solution, having fixed spots got rid of the entire point of it once people had all the runes marked in their books - which I do also, and I still have the books.

I think Mining seems to be working fine, I can mine manually now, it's random, and I stand a small chance of getting higher end stuff.

My issue is mainly lumberjacking - I've done a lot of lumberjacking over the last year - and the 3 highest types of wood - I have never got. That makes either the odds, or the system a bit ridiculous. I physically cannot get hold of the higher end stuff. Maybe if I scripted it I could, not tried.

Overall - I like the system, but the odds of getting higher end materials seem infinitesimally small, and sometimes, you may actually want to use some of the higher end woods. It's so rare right now, you are scared to even use it.

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•  Cash sales of in game items.

I just don't understand why Valorite was added to Merchant ships but not Frostwood. Yeah Yeah I know, pub 220 "might" have High Seas updated content.

<Deleted by Moderator>

Garth_Grey said:

I just don't understand why Valorite was added to Merchant ships but not Frostwood. Yeah Yeah I know, pub 220 "might" have High Seas updated content.

 LOL they will probably remove valorite from ships instead of adding FW

 There we got rid of the Cash sales of in game items part.  And as I said........... I suspect as with other things, they don't want to upset the hard working RMT scripter community that has ZERO problem obtaining a endless supply of 60K stacks to offer for sale.

If it's random, I'd like the higher end versions to have a higher chance at spawning.  That would be my request.  At GM mining you've worked hard to get that skill and then you have to continue working hard for drops.  Spawn locations should be 50% iron and the other 50% should just have an even chance spawning any other ore.  Maybe also increase how much each vein drops.  

Tired of having to have less fun in game because of policies made to deter cheaters.

Feigr said:

If it's random, I'd like the higher end versions to have a higher chance at spawning.  That would be my request.  At GM mining you've worked hard to get that skill and then you have to continue working hard for drops.  Spawn locations should be 50% iron and the other 50% should just have an even chance spawning any other ore.  Maybe also increase how much each vein drops.  

Tired of having to have less fun in game because of policies made to deter cheaters.

 Setting mining and LJ aside literally everything they have done over the years to deter the scripters has had the exact opposite effect and simply caused the not scripters to stop participating and making it something no sane person would engage in without scripting.  Used to be a legit miner or LJ could make a decent UO living.  What we asked for back then was the scripters to be dealt with, Not the entire Mining and LJ to be broke and turning into a scripter only activity.   And then things that hace ZERO to do with mining or LJ added to try to compensate for fixing what was not broken.

I have a challenging time commenting on this because the fixes as I see it reach into other aspects of the game because of how interwoven and complex the gameplay is. The problem as I see it isn't the scripters - the scripters are a symptom of the problem, which is that resource harvesting is overly monotonous, overly simplistic, fundamentally flawed by virtue of other parts of the game mechanics, and the resources themselves have very little value making the whole exercise somewhat pointless. That being said here is my response to the resource problem:

1. All resources need to come from their respective skill only, or primarily - ores from miners, wood from lumberjacks, etc. Gold elementals in the BT dungeon are a problem. Ore from trade ships are a problem. When it comes to ores, miners should be king. When it comes to wood, lumberjacks should be king.

2. Fire beetles are a huge problem. They destroy the logistical challenge of having to smelt ore at a forge. They need to be nerfed or their ability removed. My solution: rework the way smelting works, so that instead of losing half the ore upon failure, it smelts each unit one by one, with the chance of success being affected by the quality or location of the forge. A fire beetle could still provide smelting but at a much lower chance of success. The point is, players should need to carry their ore back to their house or to town or a mining camp or whatever to get the maximum yield.

3. The same principle of #2 ought to be applied to lumberjacks. Instead of using an axe to chop logs into boards, they should need to bring it back to some kind of wood mill to process it into boards until a similar process as mining. Both #2 and #3 would indeed result in lower overall yield for everyone, which is a good thing if we want to restore value to these resources and make them worth the time to harvest and sell.

4. Mining and lumberjacking should be automatic processes - once you start harvesting a spot your character will continue harvesting until the spot is either depleted or you stop the process. Having to hit a key for each individual harvest of a spot is incredibly monotonous and mind-numbing. It serves no purpose against scripters but only makes the activity more aggravating.

5. Runebook mining needs to be nerfed heavily - this is big cause of many woes. I'm not sure I had a good answer to that. Increased weight of ore? Increased weights for rare ores? A modifier to the ore weight that is only calculated for recall attempts? (example, an ore weights X, but when recalling, it weights X * 3 or something). Completely treat harvested resources as non-recallable objects? I'm tossing around ideas but the point is, if people cannot agree that runebook harvesting is one of the central problems, I guarantee you, mark my words, that this problem will -never- be solved; it won't matter if the resources are static or dynamic because scripters will always be able to power through and win out over sheer numbers alone. Runebook mining has got to be nerfed.

6. Resources need more use. Some ideas: fix BODs, implement some kind of resource need in cities, make repairing require resources. The point is, a lot of resources as they are now have a fairly limited use.

Just my 3 cents.

BRING BACK STATIC RESOURCES...  All this did was hurt the honest players.

DO AWAY WITH FAIL RATE ON SMELTING.  This is the only resource gathered that has a failure rate, everybody has a 100% success rate.

Thanks for the incredibly thoughtful & thought-provoking response!  You touch on a number of issues, the #1 being that this is a multi-faceted issue without a single "silver-bullet" solution.  Let me preface this response by saying this is merely a discussion and anything I say here should be considered highly "in-concept" and not concrete in any sense.

1. All resources need to come from their respective skill only, or primarily - ores from miners, wood from lumberjacks, etc. Gold elementals in the BT dungeon are a problem. Ore from trade ships are a problem. When it comes to ores, miners should be king. When it comes to wood, lumberjacks should be king.

I tend to agree with you, however, from the perspective of rewards from other activities resources play a vital role.  It's easy to "throw in some resources" as rewards for content without having to worry about powercreep, balance, rares etc etc.  That being said I think in some respects it makes sense to get resources from non-harvesting activities as plundering trade routes or resources caches enhances the simulation and the immersion.  I'd of much rather seen rare resources or specialty resources available from non-harvesting activities, but alas we are at the stage we are and going backwards is always tricky.  That said, it may be worth a balance pass and further discussion.

2. Fire beetles are a huge problem. They destroy the logistical challenge of having to smelt ore at a forge. They need to be nerfed or their ability removed. My solution: rework the way smelting works, so that instead of losing half the ore upon failure, it smelts each unit one by one, with the chance of success being affected by the quality or location of the forge. A fire beetle could still provide smelting but at a much lower chance of success. The point is, players should need to carry their ore back to their house or to town or a mining camp or whatever to get the maximum yield.

I think fire beetles (the de-facto portable forge) enhanced the user experience for the better overall.  While using a herd of pack animals to transport large weights of resources, or dropping/dragging may have been more realistic to the simulation, I think it presented a huge UX downfall.  I do, however, like the idea of mining/lumber camps and the thought of how to implement them is something I often think about.  Providing a bonus to refined resources would be a good way to promote their use.

3. The same principle of #2 ought to be applied to lumberjacks. Instead of using an axe to chop logs into boards, they should need to bring it back to some kind of wood mill to process it into boards until a similar process as mining. Both #2 and #3 would indeed result in lower overall yield for everyone, which is a good thing if we want to restore value to these resources and make them worth the time to harvest and sell.

See my response to #2

4. Mining and lumberjacking should be automatic processes - once you start harvesting a spot your character will continue harvesting until the spot is either depleted or you stop the process. Having to hit a key for each individual harvest of a spot is incredibly monotonous and mind-numbing. It serves no purpose against scripters but only makes the activity more aggravating.

This would probably be pretty easy to implement and would go a long way to promoting the UX of resource harvesting overall.

5. Runebook mining needs to be nerfed heavily - this is big cause of many woes. I'm not sure I had a good answer to that. Increased weight of ore? Increased weights for rare ores? A modifier to the ore weight that is only calculated for recall attempts? (example, an ore weights X, but when recalling, it weights X * 3 or something). Completely treat harvested resources as non-recallable objects? I'm tossing around ideas but the point is, if people cannot agree that runebook harvesting is one of the central problems, I guarantee you, mark my words, that this problem will -never- be solved; it won't matter if the resources are static or dynamic because scripters will always be able to power through and win out over sheer numbers alone. Runebook mining has got to be nerfed.

I think you touch on a larger issue that plagues any resource gathering operation, not just as it relates to UO.  Most of the time, it is inherently un-fun.  We try to "fancy" it up by adding random events, rare item recovery etc. Anything to trigger the reward center in an otherwise mundane loop.  That's not to say some don't enjoy the relaxation of harvesting, but for the vast majority I don't think it appeals.  The solution then, from the end-user's perspective, is to automate the process.  This results in some NPC driven resource gathering system (meh) or resource-scripting.  We can take steps to deter the latter while not punishing those legitimately harvesting, but I think at its core the process needs to evolve to something more meaty and less mundane.

6. Resources need more use. Some ideas: fix BODs, implement some kind of resource need in cities, make repairing require resources. The point is, a lot of resources as they are now have a fairly limited use.

Could you elaborate, what's wrong with BODs in your opionion?  The other suggestions you make and the core point of a lack of need definitely are valid as well.  You still need resources to craft,. but I agree expanding their need would help to revitalize an otherwise lost profession. 

Thanks again for your thoughtful feedback!

Deraj said:

I have a challenging time commenting on this because the fixes as I see it reach into other aspects of the game because of how interwoven and complex the gameplay is. The problem as I see it isn't the scripters - the scripters are a symptom of the problem, which is that resource harvesting is overly monotonous, overly simplistic, fundamentally flawed by virtue of other parts of the game mechanics, and the resources themselves have very little value making the whole exercise somewhat pointless. That being said here is my response to the resource problem:

1. All resources need to come from their respective skill only, or primarily - ores from miners, wood from lumberjacks, etc. Gold elementals in the BT dungeon are a problem. Ore from trade ships are a problem. When it comes to ores, miners should be king. When it comes to wood, lumberjacks should be king.

2. Fire beetles are a huge problem. They destroy the logistical challenge of having to smelt ore at a forge. They need to be nerfed or their ability removed. My solution: rework the way smelting works, so that instead of losing half the ore upon failure, it smelts each unit one by one, with the chance of success being affected by the quality or location of the forge. A fire beetle could still provide smelting but at a much lower chance of success. The point is, players should need to carry their ore back to their house or to town or a mining camp or whatever to get the maximum yield.

3. The same principle of #2 ought to be applied to lumberjacks. Instead of using an axe to chop logs into boards, they should need to bring it back to some kind of wood mill to process it into boards until a similar process as mining. Both #2 and #3 would indeed result in lower overall yield for everyone, which is a good thing if we want to restore value to these resources and make them worth the time to harvest and sell.

4. Mining and lumberjacking should be automatic processes - once you start harvesting a spot your character will continue harvesting until the spot is either depleted or you stop the process. Having to hit a key for each individual harvest of a spot is incredibly monotonous and mind-numbing. It serves no purpose against scripters but only makes the activity more aggravating.

5. Runebook mining needs to be nerfed heavily - this is big cause of many woes. I'm not sure I had a good answer to that. Increased weight of ore? Increased weights for rare ores? A modifier to the ore weight that is only calculated for recall attempts? (example, an ore weights X, but when recalling, it weights X * 3 or something). Completely treat harvested resources as non-recallable objects? I'm tossing around ideas but the point is, if people cannot agree that runebook harvesting is one of the central problems, I guarantee you, mark my words, that this problem will -never- be solved; it won't matter if the resources are static or dynamic because scripters will always be able to power through and win out over sheer numbers alone. Runebook mining has got to be nerfed.

6. Resources need more use. Some ideas: fix BODs, implement some kind of resource need in cities, make repairing require resources. The point is, a lot of resources as they are now have a fairly limited use.

Just my 3 cents.

Nice ideas. One of the more well thought out arguments I've read concerning resources.

If you do things to decrease the yield from mining and lumberjacking and/or to make the process more painful, the people that will be most affected are newer players and older players who aren't sitting on tons of already-collected resources.  Many older players are sitting on a lot of resources that they collected at IDOCs or bought from third-party sources.  Do we really need to have further changes made to UO that end up making more people use RL money to buy UO items from third-party sources??

One change that I would really like to see is removing the timer from the maps and cauldrons from Vela and the BOD reward system so that they can be used over a longer period of time and/or sold to other players.  

Kyronix, I like and agree with what you said. My biggest thing is that I do not find resource gathering to be fun in any way. With static resources I was able to go mine for what I needed in a relatively short period of time, limiting my boredom/frustrations. Also, the fire beetle is a huge help and should remain the same.

The only time that I ever farmed one resource hard was to get higher end wood to donate to the Vesper Museum. It was a crafter's version of doing the roof for a specific item. Since we can't reliably get those high end resources, and the rewards are considered low-end now, all of the museums sit near empty. But even if the rewards were upgraded, there's no way that I would take the time to farm 800,000 plain boards to donate.

Maximus_Neximus said:

Kyronix, I like and agree with what you said. My biggest thing is that I do not find resource gathering to be fun in any way. With static resources I was able to go mine for what I needed in a relatively short period of time, limiting my boredom/frustrations. Also, the fire beetle is a huge help and should remain the same.

The only time that I ever farmed one resource hard was to get higher end wood to donate to the Vesper Museum. It was a crafter's version of doing the roof for a specific item. Since we can't reliably get those high end resources, and the rewards are considered low-end now, all of the museums sit near empty. But even if the rewards were upgraded, there's no way that I would take the time to farm 800,000 plain boards to donate.

I think you are joined by the majority of players in resource gathering mechanics in any game.  Resources by their very nature are always a means to an end.  A lot of times we set arbitrary goals for ourselves which help define a firm objective, and that can help break the monotony...I'm going to mine 20k ingots so that I can do X.

One of the downsides of static locations is that while yes, you could go out and be sure to find valorite in the same spots every day, the very same people who are script-mining now can easily monopolize that resource so that by the time you get there...there is no valorite to be had.  I not-so-fondly remember this being the case when I finally got enough mining to get some valorite only to find those spots monopolized by other miners who had beaten me to the vein.  Yes, we could share it once the resource egg respawned, but waiting around for a respawn wasn't exactly my idea of a good time either.

Regardless, I think the core of what you are saying is you want to be able to go out and get the resources you desire without having to spend a ton of time doing something boring before you get to do whatever it is you really want to do with your resources...whether it be crafting, donating, etc, etc.

Kyronix, thanks for the quality response.

I tend to agree with you, however, from the perspective of rewards from other activities resources play a vital role.  It's easy to "throw in some resources" as rewards for content without having to worry about powercreep, balance, rares etc etc.  That being said I think in some respects it makes sense to get resources from non-harvesting activities as plundering trade routes or resources caches enhances the simulation and the immersion.  I'd of much rather seen rare resources or specialty resources available from non-harvesting activities, but alas we are at the stage we are and going backwards is always tricky.  That said, it may be worth a balance pass and further discussion.

Just to clarify, I think it is fine that resources can come from other sources, I only think it becomes a problem if sources other than harvesting become the go-to for certain kinds of resources (ore & wood). The trade ships may not be the best example - I don't really have any numbers to support a point, but I have abused the gold elementals in Blackthorn's Dungeon quite a bit, and see the ore yield from that to be detrimental to any kind of economic balance.

I think fire beetles (the de-facto portable forge) enhanced the user experience for the better overall.  While using a herd of pack animals to transport large weights of resources, or dropping/dragging may have been more realistic to the simulation, I think it presented a huge UX downfall.  I do, however, like the idea of mining/lumber camps and the thought of how to implement them is something I often think about.  Providing a bonus to refined resources would be a good way to promote their use.

I do see your point about the UX, and I can see that that is the most pressing concern to address when taking out the dreaded nerf stick. My inspiration for this line of thinking draws a lot from EVE Online, where mining the ore is only half the equation; the other half is the logistical problem of getting it back to a station. The walk between the mountain and the forge is a part of what gives ore its value - not unlike the trade quests, where walking the full distance yields higher rewards. Obviously, we wouldn't want that walk to be too far each and every time, but I think that part of the problem that fire beetles pose is that increase the yield by several factors from being able to smelt-on-the-go, rather than having to break from mining to address your weight capacity being reached. Here's a secondary idea: what if fire beetles themselves had a limited smelting capacity? In other words they could smelt only so much before running out of "heat", which regenerates at a certain rate. Or what if there was some item cost to using the fire beetle, such as having to feed it coal or something like that?

I think you touch on a larger issue that plagues any resource gathering operation, not just as it relates to UO.  Most of the time, it is inherently un-fun.  We try to "fancy" it up by adding random events, rare item recovery etc. Anything to trigger the reward center in an otherwise mundane loop.  That's not to say some don't enjoy the relaxation of harvesting, but for the vast majority I don't think it appeals.  The solution then, from the end-user's perspective, is to automate the process.  This results in some NPC driven resource gathering system (meh) or resource-scripting.  We can take steps to deter the latter while not punishing those legitimately harvesting, but I think at its core the process needs to evolve to something more meaty and less mundane.

I do agree with what you are saying. To clarify I hope no one thinks I am suggesting that runebook mining is illegitimate; it is legitimate insofar as the game mechanics and rules allow for it. I can see how my position on this might be viewed as an idea to punish the honest player to limit the scripter, but I don't see it as a punishment so much as a challenge or cost that gives the game value. Ideally we'd like monotony to go down while challenge and reward go up. The reward is the value of the ore. The challenge could be the threats, monsters, and logistical problems you meet along the way. Go even further: if there is a way to incorporate meaningful group play in what has traditionally been a solo activity, you will achieve a gold standard fun experience. I probably should have mentioned group play in my first post, because even with sometimes monotonous tasks, working together with other players to achieve a goal is another level of fun entirely. A task that is monotonous when done solo can be fun when done with others.

Could you elaborate, what's wrong with BODs in your opionion?  The other suggestions you make and the core point of a lack of need definitely are valid as well.  You still need resources to craft,. but I agree expanding their need would help to revitalize an otherwise lost profession.

It is true that crafting does need resources, but I'm not sure that the need is as strong as before in certain respects. Dragon barding's are awesome resource hogs - maybe some more versions of that, like for horses, ostards, etc would provide more resource consumption (although I realize there are other challenges involved in developing those). Unlike in the ancient days though, where one could expect to go through multiple suits on a regular basis, nowadays you make a suit that can last for years. That is why I mentioned repairs as being a possible target for resource consumption. I mean consider, armor can last for years. Even brittle/imbued armor will last a considerably long time. The concept of weapons and armor breaking completely is so remote that in my opinion it may as well not exist. So what if we reversed our thinking - instead of armor/weapons breaking/deleting when hitting 0/0 durability, or harboring the notion that brittle objects will one day die, we applied resource consumption and priced players out of their own gear? The more an object is repaired the more resources will be needed to repair it the next time (perhaps a maximum cost can be applied so it doesn't get too crazy). The property weight could also affect repair cost. Again more rambling ideas, but hopefully my underlying point is conveyed.

Regarding BODs, this may get a little verbose. I will need another number list for this.
1. First problem is that the old point structure that is being applied to the reward list does not properly measure the resource value of a BOD. For example, Quantity 10 adds 10 points, and Quantity 20 adds 50 points. So doubling the resource cost only increases the points by 40, while Exceptional, which is not a consistent factor for resource consumption, adds 200. The resources themselves are a whole other ball game. I'm not sure if we know the definitive relative values resources such as ores for example have to each other, but the points being added definitely do not take anything like that into account. Here are some examples to illustrate:

10/exc/valorite/plate gorget = 100 valorite ingots to fill, worth 760 points.
20/exc/valorite/plate gorget = 200 valorite ingots to fill, worth 800 points.

20/exc/bronze/plate gorget = 200 bronze ingots to fill, worth 600 points
20/exc/bronze/plate tunic = 500 bronze ingots to fill, worth 600 points

Large/10/norm/gold/chain = 710 points, ingot cost 480 gold ingots
Large/10/norm/agapite/ring = 660 points, ingot cost 580 agapite ingots
(note in this one, the LBOD with a lower value resource cost actually yields more points)

2. Banking points. I know that you have said before that it is not ideal for crafters to get the high level rewards by grinding low level BODs, but if the relative resource costs are balanced and taken into consideration, would that be a problem? Consider: if it takes X amount of time to mine 1000 iron, and X amount of time to mine 50 valorite ingots, and assuming no other factors went into their value (which I will concede there are other factors); as long as the relative values are being taken into account, would it be unbalanced to get the higher rewards with low level BODs? As it stands now it is possible with banked points, but my problem with the bank rate, just as in point 1, is the resource values are not being taken into account and the result is that rewards cost 5x - 20x more than if you were to claim at turn-in. It doesn't seem useful.

3. Large BODs require small BODs. This is a problem because there is too much variety and randomness in BOD generation and bribing. Bribing at least makes doing LBODs possible, but it's still unnecessarily difficult with bribing because the property you need does not always raise (and usually doesn't). Bribing can get you a top tier BOD easily, but getting mid-range BODs, or properties in the mid-range is too unreliable. Mid-tier LBODs may as well not even exist. In a roleplay sense it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. A vendor gives me an order, but I have to get smaller orders to complete his large order? The small BOD requirement is only getting in the way of doing BODs. The cost to the experience is high and the reward questionable.

Those are the three big obstructions in the BOD world. My ideal BOD situation is that a crafter can pick up a BOD, complete it, turn it in, and keep going until they run out of resources regardless of BOD size, and assured that the proper value of their resources is being taken into account. BOD storage would be minimal and only necessary for when there are insufficient resources or to stock up for the holiday event. If there was a way to incorporate group play or tie BODs to cities (sort of like trade quests) all the better.

One idea I haven't seen here is put the coloured ingots/wood on npc vendors at a high price as a gold sink.

If the prices were high enough it may bring more player vendors back to the market and make it worth wile for them to go out gathering.

As well it would relieve crafters who don't want to gather of having to do so.

In the end this is a game we all do for enjoyment we should be very careful about making a player do something they don't want to just so they can do something they want to. 
I'm not saying we shouldn't suffer some pain for the joy but we should think about it very carefully 

Get rid of my fire beetle and that will be the final nail in the coffin for my miner.  Sorry, that is the ONLY thing that still keeps me mining manually.  Take it out and the scripters who DON'T use fire beetles just get another leg up over the rest of us.  No doubt of all the above that will be the ONE things the devs do.  I seriously believe they are only interested in assisting their scripter mates generate $$ from this game. I cannot believe the changes made over the years supposedly to assist players but that have totally aided the script economy.   Sorry, just the way I see it.

Kyronix said:

I think you are joined by the majority of players in resource gathering mechanics in any game.  Resources by their very nature are always a means to an end.  A lot of times we set arbitrary goals for ourselves which help define a firm objective, and that can help break the monotony...I'm going to mine 20k ingots so that I can do X.

One of the downsides of static locations is that while yes, you could go out and be sure to find valorite in the same spots every day, the very same people who are script-mining now can easily monopolize that resource so that by the time you get there...there is no valorite to be had.  I not-so-fondly remember this being the case when I finally got enough mining to get some valorite only to find those spots monopolized by other miners who had beaten me to the vein.  Yes, we could share it once the resource egg respawned, but waiting around for a respawn wasn't exactly my idea of a good time either.

Regardless, I think the core of what you are saying is you want to be able to go out and get the resources you desire without having to spend a ton of time doing something boring before you get to do whatever it is you really want to do with your resources...whether it be crafting, donating, etc, etc.

The scripter already got the monopol on resources. With static resources the active players may break into this monopol. We can block the recall spots, go to felucca and if they are there, kill them. We can use Gargoyle Pick axes and Prospectors tools at lower ore spots. So please give us back static resources and let us handle the scripters.

MissE said:

Get rid of my fire beetle and that will be the final nail in the coffin for my miner.  Sorry, that is the ONLY thing that still keeps me mining manually.  Take it out and the scripters who DON'T use fire beetles just get another leg up over the rest of us.  No doubt of all the above that will be the ONE things the devs do.  I seriously believe they are only interested in assisting their scripter mates generate $$ from this game. I cannot believe the changes made over the years supposedly to assist players but that have totally aided the script economy.   Sorry, just the way I see it.

I totally understand your apprehension about the idea of fire beetles being nerfed, but what is the cost of their convenience? All boosts and nerfs to mining serve to either increase or decrease your overall yield. The fire beetle is a boost, but a very large one.. perhaps too large. Removing the time it takes to return to a forge increases the yield by several factors - this inflation of resources if unchecked hurts all of us, including you. If too many resources are being harvested and not enough consumed, their value goes down. When the value goes down, the viability of mining as a meaningful playstyle diminishes. We're in a situation where resource harvesting has exploded while consumption has, arguably, diminished, or at least not risen in proportion.

I hope I can sufficiently emphasize that, among the various points in my long-winded rambling there is no one point that can be picked out and applied like a bandaid to solve the problem of script mining. A comprehensive approach and overhaul is needed to create a balanced virtual ecosystem - right now the crafting/harvesting ecosystem is pretty flat and deflated by my estimation, because of these numerous problems that have run wild for years and have become harder and harder to address without stepping on some toes.

MissE said:

Get rid of my fire beetle and that will be the final nail in the coffin for my miner.  Sorry, that is the ONLY thing that still keeps me mining manually.  Take it out and the scripters who DON'T use fire beetles just get another leg up over the rest of us.  No doubt of all the above that will be the ONE things the devs do.  I seriously believe they are only interested in assisting their scripter mates generate $$ from this game. I cannot believe the changes made over the years supposedly to assist players but that have totally aided the script economy.   Sorry, just the way I see it.

AMEN

Deraj said:

MissE said:

Get rid of my fire beetle and that will be the final nail in the coffin for my miner.  Sorry, that is the ONLY thing that still keeps me mining manually.  Take it out and the scripters who DON'T use fire beetles just get another leg up over the rest of us.  No doubt of all the above that will be the ONE things the devs do.  I seriously believe they are only interested in assisting their scripter mates generate $$ from this game. I cannot believe the changes made over the years supposedly to assist players but that have totally aided the script economy.   Sorry, just the way I see it.

I totally understand your apprehension about the idea of fire beetles being nerfed, but what is the cost of their convenience? All boosts and nerfs to mining serve to either increase or decrease your overall yield. The fire beetle is a boost, but a very large one.. perhaps too large. Removing the time it takes to return to a forge increases the yield by several factors - this inflation of resources if unchecked hurts all of us, including you. If too many resources are being harvested and not enough consumed, their value goes down. When the value goes down, the viability of mining as a meaningful playstyle diminishes. We're in a situation where resource harvesting has exploded while consumption has, arguably, diminished, or at least not risen in proportion.

I hope I can sufficiently emphasize that, among the various points in my long-winded rambling there is no one point that can be picked out and applied like a bandaid to solve the problem of script mining. A comprehensive approach and overhaul is needed to create a balanced virtual ecosystem - right now the crafting/harvesting ecosystem is pretty flat and deflated by my estimation, because of these numerous problems that have run wild for years and have become harder and harder to address without stepping on some toes.

I am sorry but you do not mine.  Fire beatles are the one advantage that HONEST players have and you want to get rid of them.  

Should make it that you HAVE to have a fire beetle and you cannot recall or gate with ore on you rather than killing off my beetle.  As I said, take that out the game and I will just quit mining. I play siege and if I am in the bottom of a dungeon mining I do not want to be walking out multi levels with 50-60 ore, the max I can carry without a packy etc on me.  Talk about kiling it for anyone but the scripters, worst idea I have ever heard.   At the most I can carry about 1400 ingot by the time I am full anyways. Fire Beetles were the ONE thing that made mining bearable.

I am sorry but you do not mine.  Fire beatles are the one advantage that HONEST players have and you want to get rid of them.

A needless assumption that does not address any of my points.

All buffs and nerfs to mining result in one of two effects: increased yield, decreased yield. Every buff that increases yield will be utilized by scripters x100. The convenience (and "convenience" is putting it mildly, I call it game-breaking) that beetles bring means scripters can flood the market even worse - this is detrimental to the honest players.

Why are you bothered by scripters, exactly? What are they doing that disrupts your gameplay? If it's not the fact that they are flooding the market with huge quantities of ingots and thus diminishing resource values and the viability of honest miners everywhere, then why worry? But if it is, don't you think that striking at the root of the problem and creating elegant game design would be far more effective than some hamfisted approach of trying to play whack-a-scripter? (and especially considering that if the scripter is at their keyboard they won't be penalized anyways).

Deraj said:

I am sorry but you do not mine.  Fire beatles are the one advantage that HONEST players have and you want to get rid of them.

A needless assumption that does not address any of my points.

All buffs and nerfs to mining result in one of two effects: increased yield, decreased yield. Every buff that increases yield will be utilized by scripters x100. The convenience (and "convenience" is putting it mildly, I call it game-breaking) that beetles bring means scripters can flood the market even worse - this is detrimental to the honest players.

Why are you bothered by scripters, exactly? What are they doing that disrupts your gameplay? If it's not the fact that they are flooding the market with huge quantities of ingots and thus diminishing resource values and the viability of honest miners everywhere, then why worry? But if it is, don't you think that striking at the root of the problem and creating elegant game design would be far more effective than some hamfisted approach of trying to play whack-a-scripter? (and especially considering that if the scripter is at their keyboard they won't be penalized anyways).

It was because of scripters is the reason that UO gave us for random resources and you want to NERF the HONEST players, WOW.  Scripters DO NOT use beatles they use recall scripts thank you very much.  Just more proof you do not mine/lumberjack

I think the bigger problem is that is no use for the high end ore anymore compared to global loot other then maybe turning the bod in for the points to get rewards.  That being said it why not have a middle ground.  What I mean by that is being static and random kinda.  Make resources stay the same for two to three weeks in locations then change it up for next two to three weeks.  Then the scripters would have to at least remark all their runes in order to keep up, thus giving the advantage back to the honest players.

Prior to randomisation I mined plenty of the upper end ores and chopped plenty of upper end woods, you just worked around the scripters, sheesh was one who used to mine in cove on my shard and all you needed to do was get in front of him so he ended up mining your leavings.  Since randomisation I get bugger all to NO frostwood, and I get more valorite from merchant ships than mining. All randomising did was make it impossible for the legit miners/lumberjacks and gave it all to the scripters. Sorry Kyronix, but I can work around the scripters if I know where the ore/wood is, I can't work around em when it is random.  The excuse that we can't compete with the scripters is rubbish.  ON prodo shard where you knew where a tree or ore vein was in fel you just needed to go kill the scripter and then mine/chop, now you have no idea where to wait and finding resources is like finding half a needle in a 10 hectare paddock let alone a flipping haystack. Would rather it was just changed back so we could take our chances with the scripters. 

 What legit miners are good for now days........ Mining Saltpeter , Smelting while blacksmithing, mining granite, and mining iron with a over abundance of copper ore mixed in.   Mining is something you liked doing or did not before randomization.  Mining is something no one enjoyed after randomization as witnessed by the legit miners disappearing pretty much overnight.  Same with lumberjacks.  Very often the simplest solution is the best solution and reverting back to static ore and wood is the simple and best solution, not making it more complex and nerfing fire beetles.  NO ONE that chose to be a miner as their main playstyle asked for, wanted or liked the change.  ALL we have asked for since mining and LJ was broken was that it be returned to how it was, not made more complicated and even less enjoyable.   If you remember Bags of sending were also nerfed back then and were soon reverted back to their original function.  But here we are all of these years later and mining and LJ is still broken and simple flip of code switch would make us happy and make mining and LJ a legit profession again.  Sorry but saying static resources would allow the scripters to monopolize is one of the more ridiculous things I have heard, since it was changed random and allowed the scripters to monopolize the wood and ore market.

This is a simple concept, the harder you make it for the scripters the harder you make it for legitimate players. Resource gathering then becomes something we don't want to do and we are then forced to consider buying spripted resources. Please do not nerf the fire beetle and consider putting the resources back to some semblance of static.

High end ore/wood/resources should absolutely stay on Merchant and Dread Pirate ships. It makes total sense that the most sought after items would either be on trade ships bound for other ports, or on the very Dread Pirate ships that we are constantly warned about at the sea market. "We were attacked and scuttled by Iron Grip Billy and barely escaped with out lives, he also looted our......50.......melons ??" I think other items of value should also be added to the loot found on these ships. 

My neighbor in Malas thinks his group of 10 identically named resource bots that drop resources into the pouches hidden in the front left hedge of his house is super stealthy. He'd run more but each requires a recall tile so he's out of room. I guess I'm not supposed to notice that he's been running then nearly around the clock for 4+ years now?

My neighbor in Fel is worse. Not only does he have closer to 20 doing this he has his chests on the side of his house over a bamboo floor next to a missing wall piece. He recalls to the side of his house where he thinks he's hidden. That puts these non-stop recalling bots 1 tile from my house which also makes me hear them no matter where in my own house I am.

Lets just say that random vs non-random is not going to change what they actually do. In fact it risks increasing how much they do it. So long as NPCs buy iron ingots for 20gp each and cleanup chests give points for colored materials it's just not going to stop.

I am for leaving all as it is now (especially fire beetles) but to increase the time to a month before switching ore colors.

Tyrath said:

 What legit miners are good for now days........ Mining Saltpeter , Smelting while blacksmithing, mining granite, and mining iron with a over abundance of copper ore mixed in.   Mining is something you liked doing or did not before randomization.  Mining is something no one enjoyed after randomization as witnessed by the legit miners disappearing pretty much overnight.  Same with lumberjacks.  Very often the simplest solution is the best solution and reverting back to static ore and wood is the simple and best solution, not making it more complex and nerfing fire beetles.  NO ONE that chose to be a miner as their main playstyle asked for, wanted or liked the change.  ALL we have asked for since mining and LJ was broken was that it be returned to how it was, not made more complicated and even less enjoyable.   If you remember Bags of sending were also nerfed back then and were soon reverted back to their original function.  But here we are all of these years later and mining and LJ is still broken and simple flip of code switch would make us happy and make mining and LJ a legit profession again.  Sorry but saying static resources would allow the scripters to monopolize is one of the more ridiculous things I have heard, since it was changed random and allowed the scripters to monopolize the wood and ore market.

AMEN 

SirAJ said:

I am for leaving all as it is now (especially fire beetles) but to increase the time to a month before switching ore colors.

I've noticed when playing on some of the "dead" shards that ore spots I marked runes for several years ago are still the same ore today.  (Also have noticed the same for lumberjacking.) So I suspect that what triggers an ore change is the quantity of the non-iron ore pulled out of the location, or the number of pick/shovel strikes, rather than the length of time the spot has had non-iron ore as a possibility. I think what would need to be programmed instead of what you suggest is to increase the amount of non-iron ore that a location will spawn or the number of pick/shovel strikes it can have before the ore changes to something else. 

In any event, I agree that letting a location yield 5 or 10 or even 20 times as much of a non-iron ore (or something other than plain wood, for lumberjacking) as it does now before changing would be a good change to make, while leaving everything else as is.  

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

I am sorry but you do not mine.  Fire beatles are the one advantage that HONEST players have and you want to get rid of them.

A needless assumption that does not address any of my points.

All buffs and nerfs to mining result in one of two effects: increased yield, decreased yield. Every buff that increases yield will be utilized by scripters x100. The convenience (and "convenience" is putting it mildly, I call it game-breaking) that beetles bring means scripters can flood the market even worse - this is detrimental to the honest players.

Why are you bothered by scripters, exactly? What are they doing that disrupts your gameplay? If it's not the fact that they are flooding the market with huge quantities of ingots and thus diminishing resource values and the viability of honest miners everywhere, then why worry? But if it is, don't you think that striking at the root of the problem and creating elegant game design would be far more effective than some hamfisted approach of trying to play whack-a-scripter? (and especially considering that if the scripter is at their keyboard they won't be penalized anyways).

It was because of scripters is the reason that UO gave us for random resources and you want to NERF the HONEST players, WOW.  Scripters DO NOT use beatles they use recall scripts thank you very much.  Just more proof you do not mine/lumberjack

I've seen multiple script miners using fire beetles over the course of years. Now I'm beginning to wonder if you are the one pretending to be a miner.

Kyronix said:

Could you elaborate, what's wrong with BODs in your opionion?  

You really do not know that many BODs do not work as intended and never have???


Carpentry: 

Weapons Large:
Works

Wood Furniture Large:
The Large and all four smalls cant go past normal wood.

Cabinet Large:
The large and the two smalls cant be bribed past 20 exceptional wood.

SE Armoire Large:
The large and the four smalls cant be bribed past 20 exceptional wood.

Instruments:
The large cant be bribed past 20 normal wood.
The smalls cant be bribed past 20 exceptional wood.

Large SE chests:
The large and the five smalls cant be bribed past 20 exceptional wood.

Eleven weapons:
Work but need high level gems

Tinkering: 

Jewelry:
Larges and smalls of gemmed jewelry BODs cant go past 20 normal iron. Gemmed jewelry cant be made exceptional. I have not received a large non gemmed BOD. 

Key Ring: Works

Tools: Large BOD cant be bribed to exceptional. Smalls work.

Dining Set: Works


If you fix these issues than we could bring up things about the stupid ones like Gold Dust and Nexxus Cores. etc

As for the random locations of iron and wood:

Were the locations randomized because the spots were constantly camped?  Nope.  They were changed because of scripting and now scripters are the ones who get the most.As shown by Tyraths pictures.

Tyrath said:

Larisa  Jagex tried those interruptions way back and they were universally hated, don't know how it turned out I left and went back to UO.   As it is now the scripter just fills a runebook with random spot and presses play on the recall script and runs for 23 hours.

The problem with this is simple: You have accounts doing only mining, 23 hours a day, but apparently its too hard to flag and jail those.

Adding interruptions will only add more pain for legit players and not hinder script a bit.

The problem is that Broadsword has given up on punishing paid script accounts. Good luck finding a game mechanic that is fun for a human and hard for a bot. Good. Luck.

It's all already in the TOS. There is no technical solution here.

Other MMO’s struggle with resource scripting.  It’s part of the nature of gaming.

Final Fantasy tried numerous times to address scripting by making resource gathering a mini-game that requires precise input.  

However, scripters found a way around it.

So, SE’s response was to have a zero-tolerance policy for scripting and botting.  If you were caught, your account was perma-banned.  This helped some, and when populations were high, the ban-hammer came down more, but scripting was still present because buying a new account was not a chore for real-world money sites (and added to SE sales.)

However, as FF11 got older, less people played, there was no more hard edged policing of bots and less ban-hammer.

My best input is to make resource gathering a timed event through diminishing returns.

For instance, what is a fair length of time that a casual player may want to farm?  2-3 hours?  Resource gathering like mining is inherently monotonous in real life.  But a person can only work at most 16 hours a day if they are a superhero and at best 8 without going insane.

Reasonably, how long will casual gamers play?  And how long will hardcore?  It’s obvious that obsessive people and bots would go 23+.

Resouce gathering should have a limit up to every real world hour.  It’s already monotonous, why farm more than an hour at a time?

As you continuously farm, you get less and less resources.  You should break every hour, like a cooldown, until resources can be farmed in full-mode again.

That would limit what a bot could do.  What is now 23 hours of farming is 11.5 but the casual player still gets their 3-6 in if they wanted.

Make it is so what a casual player can get done in a short amount of time, an obsessive player should get dinged for spending so much time on, and get diminishing returns on farming.   

Then, if you spend your 3-6, go raid a ship or trade route for more resources and get your resource fix that way too, yet, put diminishing returns on that.

How long is a typical raid?  1-2 hours?  3-4?

If people want to consume resources all hours of the day in a game, put in diminishing returns so the casual or hardcore players can enjoy their time and the obsessive botters can get frustrated they aren’t getting more bang for their buck lol.

Give the bang for your buck to the casual player.

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

I am sorry but you do not mine.  Fire beatles are the one advantage that HONEST players have and you want to get rid of them.

A needless assumption that does not address any of my points.

All buffs and nerfs to mining result in one of two effects: increased yield, decreased yield. Every buff that increases yield will be utilized by scripters x100. The convenience (and "convenience" is putting it mildly, I call it game-breaking) that beetles bring means scripters can flood the market even worse - this is detrimental to the honest players.

Why are you bothered by scripters, exactly? What are they doing that disrupts your gameplay? If it's not the fact that they are flooding the market with huge quantities of ingots and thus diminishing resource values and the viability of honest miners everywhere, then why worry? But if it is, don't you think that striking at the root of the problem and creating elegant game design would be far more effective than some hamfisted approach of trying to play whack-a-scripter? (and especially considering that if the scripter is at their keyboard they won't be penalized anyways).

It was because of scripters is the reason that UO gave us for random resources and you want to NERF the HONEST players, WOW.  Scripters DO NOT use beatles they use recall scripts thank you very much.  Just more proof you do not mine/lumberjack

I've seen multiple script miners using fire beetles over the course of years. Now I'm beginning to wonder if you are the one pretending to be a miner.

Yea right, you are full of poo and you know it.  Just keep supporting cheaters and to heck with the honest players.

        About this I want to say : ore beginning with bronze should spawning in dungeons,scripters will find it more difficult to extract it,it is necessary to change the chances of spawning valorite ore,for a player who digs it by hand it's absolutely pointless to do this , the chances of her spawn are now very small ! Further it is necessary to make so that during the extraction of valorite ore appeared there was a monster,not very strong,that colossus could kill him.It was not bad to reconsider the chances of the appearance of all types of ore. This is a very monotonous and boring work,in 2018, few will like this entertainment,now is not 1998.If you guys are developers,will fight with scripting and multibox accounts,and revise the extraction of resources,then everything will be just super )) 

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

I am sorry but you do not mine.  Fire beatles are the one advantage that HONEST players have and you want to get rid of them.

A needless assumption that does not address any of my points.

All buffs and nerfs to mining result in one of two effects: increased yield, decreased yield. Every buff that increases yield will be utilized by scripters x100. The convenience (and "convenience" is putting it mildly, I call it game-breaking) that beetles bring means scripters can flood the market even worse - this is detrimental to the honest players.

Why are you bothered by scripters, exactly? What are they doing that disrupts your gameplay? If it's not the fact that they are flooding the market with huge quantities of ingots and thus diminishing resource values and the viability of honest miners everywhere, then why worry? But if it is, don't you think that striking at the root of the problem and creating elegant game design would be far more effective than some hamfisted approach of trying to play whack-a-scripter? (and especially considering that if the scripter is at their keyboard they won't be penalized anyways).

It was because of scripters is the reason that UO gave us for random resources and you want to NERF the HONEST players, WOW.  Scripters DO NOT use beatles they use recall scripts thank you very much.  Just more proof you do not mine/lumberjack

I've seen multiple script miners using fire beetles over the course of years. Now I'm beginning to wonder if you are the one pretending to be a miner.

I have not seen a script beetle miner or a rail miner in years on prodo. Still see and kill railers with beetles on Siege and even back when I did see one they were rare.  What I did and still do see are recall miners and LJs that bounce from resource to that house in the middle of nowhere with a 1 million+ stone box on the edge of it.   If scripting with a fire beetle was effective every script miner would be using it.... and the simple fact is no script miner is using a beetle.

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

I am sorry but you do not mine.  Fire beatles are the one advantage that HONEST players have and you want to get rid of them.

A needless assumption that does not address any of my points.

All buffs and nerfs to mining result in one of two effects: increased yield, decreased yield. Every buff that increases yield will be utilized by scripters x100. The convenience (and "convenience" is putting it mildly, I call it game-breaking) that beetles bring means scripters can flood the market even worse - this is detrimental to the honest players.

Why are you bothered by scripters, exactly? What are they doing that disrupts your gameplay? If it's not the fact that they are flooding the market with huge quantities of ingots and thus diminishing resource values and the viability of honest miners everywhere, then why worry? But if it is, don't you think that striking at the root of the problem and creating elegant game design would be far more effective than some hamfisted approach of trying to play whack-a-scripter? (and especially considering that if the scripter is at their keyboard they won't be penalized anyways).

It was because of scripters is the reason that UO gave us for random resources and you want to NERF the HONEST players, WOW.  Scripters DO NOT use beatles they use recall scripts thank you very much.  Just more proof you do not mine/lumberjack

I've seen multiple script miners using fire beetles over the course of years. Now I'm beginning to wonder if you are the one pretending to be a miner.

@Kyronix How about we put all the rare resources into Ilshenar/Valley of Eodon and dungeons in Felucca.  If they can't recall in lets see how it goes.

Make Trammel and Fel overland forest only have wood and oak.  Make all forests in Ilshenar/VoE have a much higher % of rare woods from Ash up to Frostwood.

Likewise, overland mining spots just iron and pershaps dull copper.  Dungeons in Tram the same unless there is no in or recall out, shadow and above ores everywhere in Ilshenar, Valley of Eodon, and in all Fel dungeons and at higher % than currently exists.

Most people already only gather in Felucca anyways on prodo shards, those training can do that just as well in Ilshenar/VoE as in Trammel/Fel.

That is one solution to even up the availability and keeping it random if you don't wanna just put it back to how it was.

It would stop everyone recalling in but you can recall out of Ilsh on prodo, as for siege, where I play it would be a bit more of a pain to get out but I can live with that if the rates were upped so that you had a decent chance of getting the rarer resources. 

I would be happy with this solution.

MissE said:

@ Kyronix How about we put all the rare resources into Ilshenar/Valley of Eodon and dungeons in Felucca.  If they can't recall in lets see how it goes.

Make Trammel and Fel overland forest only have wood and oak.  Make all forests in Ilshenar/VoE have a much higher % of rare woods from Ash up to Frostwood.

Likewise, overland mining spots just iron and pershaps dull copper.  Dungeons in Tram the same unless there is no in or recall out, shadow and above ores everywhere in Ilshenar, Valley of Eodon, and in all Fel dungeons and at higher % than currently exists.

Most people already only gather in Felucca anyways on prodo shards, those training can do that just as well in Ilshenar/VoE as in Trammel/Fel.

That is one solution to even up the availability and keeping it random if you don't wanna just put it back to how it was.

It would stop everyone recalling in but you can recall out of Ilsh on prodo, as for siege, where I play it would be a bit more of a pain to get out but I can live with that if the rates were upped so that you had a decent chance of getting the rarer resources. 

I would be happy with this solution.

REALLY  You want all the high end stuff Fel only, why not move everything over so I can shut down all my accounts and be done with it.

Bilbo said:

why not move everything over so I can shut down all my accounts and be done with it.

No. She said the high end stuff in Eodon and Ilsh. And then other spots where you can not gate or mark a rune like Fel or Tram areas that have no rune marking.

I mine in Fel Delucia.  Ilsh is already good for mining, it counts as a dungeon. 

I like her idea. It would also test the recall scripting theory.

 Eodon and Ilsh are not fel 🙂  And removing the recall aspect by utilizing those areas and I would add the abyss would really poop on the recall scripters parade.

Here is an idea how about UO get GMs that know what a script resource bot looks like (the players know), put resources back the way they were and enforce their rules.  Oh wait that means they might have to do something.  Enforcing the RULES that we all agreed to fixes the problem everything else is a work around for scripters and a slap in the face to honest players

I like that idea MissE....put them in no recall zones and stop the recall scripters anyway...and yes most of us crafters gather in Fel anyway because of the double resources so the only thing that would hurt would be the scripters....make it so! 🙂

Patricia said:

I like that idea MissE....put them in no recall zones and stop the recall scripters anyway...and yes most of us crafters gather in Fel anyway because of the double resources so the only thing that would hurt would be the scripters....make it so! 🙂

Speak for yourself because the resource gathers I know do so in Tram.

then they are doing it wrong? OMG how can you not gather in fel for the double resources? That's such a waste of time gathering anywhere else

Patricia said:

then they are doing it wrong? OMG how can you not gather in fel for the double resources? That's such a waste of time gathering anywhere else

OMG I don't play UO like you do I must be a bad player. LMAO I didn't know there was only one way to play UO

Bilbo said:

MissE said:

@ Kyronix How about we put all the rare resources into Ilshenar/Valley of Eodon and dungeons in Felucca.  If they can't recall in lets see how it goes.

Make Trammel and Fel overland forest only have wood and oak.  Make all forests in Ilshenar/VoE have a much higher % of rare woods from Ash up to Frostwood.

Likewise, overland mining spots just iron and pershaps dull copper.  Dungeons in Tram the same unless there is no in or recall out, shadow and above ores everywhere in Ilshenar, Valley of Eodon, and in all Fel dungeons and at higher % than currently exists.

Most people already only gather in Felucca anyways on prodo shards, those training can do that just as well in Ilshenar/VoE as in Trammel/Fel.

That is one solution to even up the availability and keeping it random if you don't wanna just put it back to how it was.

It would stop everyone recalling in but you can recall out of Ilsh on prodo, as for siege, where I play it would be a bit more of a pain to get out but I can live with that if the rates were upped so that you had a decent chance of getting the rarer resources. 

I would be happy with this solution.

REALLY  You want all the high end stuff Fel only, why not move everything over so I can shut down all my accounts and be done with it.

You didn't read what I posted, Fel AND ILSHENAR AND VALLEY OF EODON.  Read again.

Sheesh, and I said increase the drop rate of the rares in all those locations so basically you can mine or chop in Ilsh/Valley of Eodon to your hearts content and you can even recall out of Ilsh.  NOWHERE did I say FEL only. Plain wood and oak, iron ore and dull can stay in the whole lands. The tokono mines would also be a candidate for the rare ores as you can't recall out of there either from memory. 
 

Are there really that many scripters left ? 

Most shards are empty.

put it back how it was static so we can use are old rune books again 

jmi 

Skett said:

Are there really that many scripters left ? 

Most shards are empty.

put it back how it was static so we can use are old rune books again 

jmi 

 I can't speak to LJ  scripters but there are more Mining scripters than legit miners by a long shot.  I spend quite a bit of time in the Orc Mine on various shards and on a couple of the deadest shards there is always 2-3 script miners bouncing around in there with a junk lrc suit and a orc mask.  Only thing I like about them is they pop niter deposits and their script doesn't mine them.  Other shards it is the Brit mine,  yet other shards the script hot spots are the long tunnels in malas.  Fel side the brit mine, and all of the little pocket caves around covetous, fire island, and destard seem to be the script sweet spots.   The ones I find most interesting are the ones that place a house next a mountain and wall mine 23/7 from inside the house, never leaving the house, I run across those mostly on Siege though.

  That being said there are a lot less than there were even 5 years ago but I suspect that has to do with the over all population decline.  The shard of the dead though are where they farm and all roads lead back to Atlantic.  Or the RMT stores that deliver to any shard.   Same as any other resource or high end item. 

Bilbo said:

Patricia said:

then they are doing it wrong? OMG how can you not gather in fel for the double resources? That's such a waste of time gathering anywhere else

OMG I don't play UO like you do I must be a bad player. LMAO I didn't know there was only one way to play UO

Never said their was....just that mining double resources seems like a no-brainer to me...but if you wanna waste time/shovels/etc. spending twice as much time...more power to ya!

@MissE I wonder if the coding would allow for that? And how hard it would be to code in to just have the lower end resources spawn in certain areas and the high end ones only in non-recall locations...but I really like that idea and I hope they put it on ~The List~ of things to consider!

Just a few personal comments to add to the bits said.

• I think the BOD system is fine, I enjoy it, it's like the Taming system - one of the few systems that works ok. My only issue, would be for Crafting itself to be boosted, to give the final BOD rewards more use. There is no point getting overly hung up on small-scale issues.
• I have no issue with the current style of gathering resources, in terms of clicking for lumberjacking, or mining, I enjoy both, they are relaxing after a hard days work, and tough evenings PvP.
• Fire beetles are really useful, there would be no benefit getting rid of these, they make mining far more player friendly.
• A good way to reduce scripting gains, would be to move all valuable resources to Felucca/Illshenar/Valley of Eodon - Non Recall or PKable locations like the above poster said.
• I don't think we should go back to Static Resources - it allows active players and scripters to monopolize nodes, and gives your average player no chance. Random is fine, my only issue being that higher end ores/wood seem to be extremely hard to get hold of - via what should be their main gathering methods.

Patricia said:

Bilbo said:

Patricia said:

then they are doing it wrong? OMG how can you not gather in fel for the double resources? That's such a waste of time gathering anywhere else

OMG I don't play UO like you do I must be a bad player. LMAO I didn't know there was only one way to play UO

Never said their was....just that mining double resources seems like a no-brainer to me...but if you wanna waste time/shovels/etc. spending twice as much time...more power to ya!

@ MissE I wonder if the coding would allow for that? And how hard it would be to code in to just have the lower end resources spawn in certain areas and the high end ones only in non-recall locations...but I really like that idea and I hope they put it on ~The List~ of things to consider!

  If you are gathering fel is better if you are training LJ or mining Tram is better.  And a whole lot of people simply are not going to step foot in fel and that is fine.  Either side tram or fel, trying to get the ore you want or need is pointless........ But there is granite and saltpeter.  But we come back to mining and LJ was NOT broken until the Dev flavor of the day back then fixed it.  Can't be mad at the Dev teams since that time for breaking mining and LJ, just for not returning it to how it was which every serious miner and LJ has been asking for since they broke/fixed mining and LJ.

Tyrath said:

I have not seen a script beetle miner or a rail miner in years on prodo. Still see and kill railers with beetles on Siege and even back when I did see one they were rare.  What I did and still do see are recall miners and LJs that bounce from resource to that house in the middle of nowhere with a 1 million+ stone box on the edge of it.   If scripting with a fire beetle was effective every script miner would be using it.... and the simple fact is no script miner is using a beetle.

I don't doubt that many script miners forgo the beetle. I am telling you and everyone else here that I have seen it. Using a beetle likely depends on how the individual scripter prefers to harvest, but using a beetle makes the progress far more efficient. Consider the steps involved: recall to mining spot, begin automated-mining - but what happens when the weight limit is reached? At this point you have to recall back to your house and use a forge, then stash the ingots. But then what? Recall back to the spot? How many times will you have to recall away from a single spot before depleting it, and how much time is wasted in doing so? Or will you recall to a different spot and forgo the remaining ore? What if it was a valorite spot you are leaving behind? The irony is that the beetle-less situation accomplishes exactly what I suppose it would - it lowers the overall yield by making the script miner go back to a forge.

In the alternative situation, a beetle allows the miner to smelt on the go. They can go from spot to spot without having to go home - going home only to stash ingots and gems. This means more mine time. More yield. And with randomized ores, numbers is what it's all about. In this case it's no different from lumberjacking where all you have to do to process the raw material is use an axe on it.

Again, the decision to use a beetle may vary from scripter to scripter. Perhaps the biggest downside of the beetle is the risk of the beetle getting killed, which completely derails the process. Not having a beetle prevents that.

Yes, some scripters don't use beetles. Some do.

most of them don't...if you go around and look at the containers on the front steps/porches of the scripting houses they are like 82786867863 stones in weight..they don't smelt the ore they just dump it and have another script to smelt it later, that saves time.

Deraj said:

Tyrath said:

I have not seen a script beetle miner or a rail miner in years on prodo. Still see and kill railers with beetles on Siege and even back when I did see one they were rare.  What I did and still do see are recall miners and LJs that bounce from resource to that house in the middle of nowhere with a 1 million+ stone box on the edge of it.   If scripting with a fire beetle was effective every script miner would be using it.... and the simple fact is no script miner is using a beetle.

I don't doubt that many script miners forgo the beetle. I am telling you and everyone else here that I have seen it. Using a beetle likely depends on how the individual scripter prefers to harvest, but using a beetle makes the progress far more efficient. Consider the steps involved: recall to mining spot, begin automated-mining - but what happens when the weight limit is reached? At this point you have to recall back to your house and use a forge, then stash the ingots. But then what? Recall back to the spot? How many times will you have to recall away from a single spot before depleting it, and how much time is wasted in doing so? Or will you recall to a different spot and forgo the remaining ore? What if it was a valorite spot you are leaving behind? The irony is that the beetle-less situation accomplishes exactly what I suppose it would - it lowers the overall yield by making the script miner go back to a forge.

In the alternative situation, a beetle allows the miner to smelt on the go. They can go from spot to spot without having to go home - going home only to stash ingots and gems. This means more mine time. More yield. And with randomized ores, numbers is what it's all about. In this case it's no different from lumberjacking where all you have to do to process the raw material is use an axe on it.

Again, the decision to use a beetle may vary from scripter to scripter. Perhaps the biggest downside of the beetle is the risk of the beetle getting killed, which completely derails the process. Not having a beetle prevents that.

Yes, some scripters don't use beetles. Some do.

OK here is how the most popular recall script works and all of the other scripts are pretty much based off of it, and just have a few more bells and whistles.

 Recalls or SJ (You Pick)  to the location mines or LJs up to 90% of the weight you can carry.

Recalls/SJ to house or bank and dumps into the secure

Recalls/SJ to the next rune in the book repeats. 

The basics script requires a 100LRC or a lot of tithing points,  enough tinkering to make shovels/picks.  The script does a check on the tools and makes more tinker tools and shovels/pics as needed.  The script does a weight check every time a ore or log is mined.  The script only mines or chops a location dry if the weight % is not exceeded. 

 Later scripts added a constant area scan that makes the toon hide and stop mining or recall if another player is detected approaching.  Some versions added stopping and saying hello to another player or GM.  Others added just randomly talking every few minutes. Some are private scripts not found in any PSL that are heavily customized to perform several other functions. 

 The mining with a beetle and LJ with a beetle were written for the casual player that just did not like all of the clicking involved and for Siege scripters to work with a rail to a house or through a moongate to Luna or Zento bank. 

  The recall scripts bring in ore at about 10-1 and are FAST VS the gathering with a beetle.

 The beetle scripts are area scanners that mine or LJ a area dry and the beetle scripts are worthless for unattended as the bugs will constantly get whacked by any spawn thus causing the script to stop.    They are pretty much obsolete even on siege except for a rail around a house. Replaced with the rail that uses hiding and stealth to just go to the bank or house undetected.  Using the beetle scripts on siege just tells everyone there is someone scripting and stealthing and puts a big please kill me sign on them.

  So what you saw were probably scripters but just the poor schmuck trying to get enough ore for their own use, not one of the pro miners feeding the RMT or Ingame ore and wood brokers....... which in turn feed the RMT gold sellers.

  ANd yes I know a whole lot about scripts and how they work and NO I have never used a script or even UOA on OSI servers.

Tyrath said:

 Eodon and Ilsh are not fel 🙂  And removing the recall aspect by utilizing those areas and I would add the abyss would really poop on the recall scripters parade.

Yeah I forgot the Abyss, can put the high end ores there as well as Fel Dungeons, Fel Lost Lands, Ilshenar, Valley of Eodon.  Think the Yomotsu Mines in Tokuno, Wrong Dungeon Tram are also no recall 'in' zones. 

It would be really simple to make it that all the high end stuff could be in no recall 'in' zones. While the basic ores/wood remain in Tram. 

I would rather they put it back to static locations but if the reason they won't is due to 'scripters' then make it so it is the real miners/lumberjacks can find the stuff and put it in non-recall areas and UP THE RATE of the resource nodes so it isn't such a hit and miss when it comes to random stuff. There are lots of non recall areas that are NOT in fel to cater to the newbie or those who don't wanna go to fel.

Tyrath said:

Deraj said:

Tyrath said:

I have not seen a script beetle miner or a rail miner in years on prodo. Still see and kill railers with beetles on Siege and even back when I did see one they were rare.  What I did and still do see are recall miners and LJs that bounce from resource to that house in the middle of nowhere with a 1 million+ stone box on the edge of it.   If scripting with a fire beetle was effective every script miner would be using it.... and the simple fact is no script miner is using a beetle.

I don't doubt that many script miners forgo the beetle. I am telling you and everyone else here that I have seen it. Using a beetle likely depends on how the individual scripter prefers to harvest, but using a beetle makes the progress far more efficient. Consider the steps involved: recall to mining spot, begin automated-mining - but what happens when the weight limit is reached? At this point you have to recall back to your house and use a forge, then stash the ingots. But then what? Recall back to the spot? How many times will you have to recall away from a single spot before depleting it, and how much time is wasted in doing so? Or will you recall to a different spot and forgo the remaining ore? What if it was a valorite spot you are leaving behind? The irony is that the beetle-less situation accomplishes exactly what I suppose it would - it lowers the overall yield by making the script miner go back to a forge.

In the alternative situation, a beetle allows the miner to smelt on the go. They can go from spot to spot without having to go home - going home only to stash ingots and gems. This means more mine time. More yield. And with randomized ores, numbers is what it's all about. In this case it's no different from lumberjacking where all you have to do to process the raw material is use an axe on it.

Again, the decision to use a beetle may vary from scripter to scripter. Perhaps the biggest downside of the beetle is the risk of the beetle getting killed, which completely derails the process. Not having a beetle prevents that.

Yes, some scripters don't use beetles. Some do.

OK here is how the most popular recall script works and all of the other scripts are pretty much based off of it, and just have a few more bells and whistles.

 Recalls or SJ (You Pick)  to the location mines or LJs up to 90% of the weight you can carry.

Recalls/SJ to house or bank and dumps into the secure

Recalls/SJ to the next rune in the book repeats. 

The basics script requires a 100LRC or a lot of tithing points,  enough tinkering to make shovels/picks.  The script does a check on the tools and makes more tinker tools and shovels/pics as needed.  The script does a weight check every time a ore or log is mined.  The script only mines or chops a location dry if the weight % is not exceeded. 

 Later scripts added a constant area scan that makes the toon hide and stop mining or recall if another player is detected approaching.  Some versions added stopping and saying hello to another player or GM.  Others added just randomly talking every few minutes. Some are private scripts not found in any PSL that are heavily customized to perform several other functions. 

 The mining with a beetle and LJ with a beetle were written for the casual player that just did not like all of the clicking involved and for Siege scripters to work with a rail to a house or through a moongate to Luna or Zento bank. 

  The recall scripts bring in ore at about 10-1 and are FAST VS the gathering with a beetle.

 The beetle scripts are area scanners that mine or LJ a area dry and the beetle scripts are worthless for unattended as the bugs will constantly get whacked by any spawn thus causing the script to stop.    They are pretty much obsolete even on siege except for a rail around a house. Replaced with the rail that uses hiding and stealth to just go to the bank or house undetected.  Using the beetle scripts on siege just tells everyone there is someone scripting and stealthing and puts a big please kill me sign on them.

  So what you saw were probably scripters but just the poor schmuck trying to get enough ore for their own use, not one of the pro miners feeding the RMT or Ingame ore and wood brokers....... which in turn feed the RMT gold sellers.

  ANd yes I know a whole lot about scripts and how they work and NO I have never used a script or even UOA on OSI servers.

Don't worry, unlike other users on this forum, I will not make any baseless assumptions about you or anyone else.

I cannot comment on Siege, because I do not play there. I will concede one error in my previous assessment of non-beetle scripting, which is that it does make much more sense to dump the raw resources and continue mining. However, I still do not believe it is faster. Every time you recall back to the house is time not spent mining. Plus you are moving potentially 3-6 piles of ore on every return, which add up quickly as you recall back each time. Consolidating house returns and item moves (through ore smelted into ingots) is the logical way to improve output.

Mine > Smelt > Recall to next spot > Repeat until bag is full, recall to house and unload

(Yes, the unload phase will last a little bit longer than if you were to recall back after every spot because there is more to unload, but it's less clicks/actions overall.)

I'm sorry, but I remain unconvinced that non-beetle script mining produces more. There are risks as you said, such as the beetle being killed. But this can be fairly easy to avoid if you pick your spots carefully.

I think a lot of people situated their houses by remote mountains so they could mine. It will suck if suddenly their house location is rendered meaningless by the removal of all upper end ore. Requiring a long trek to get ore and possibly rendering their mining template ineffective doesn't sound like it is promoting fun to me, or leading to more people mining.

I do like the idea of increasing the time that a vein stays. This would be a payoff for those that actively prospect.

Perhaps we could do double ore in areas where teleport is not allowed. That way those who do the trek get rewarded.

How about if a miner is digging, they can randomly get a map with a 10 minute timer: "You spot a formation of perfect emeralds nearby"-- act on the map, or it goes poof.

I vote yes on the recurring non-Recall area theme.  It makes sense.

MissE said:

Tyrath said:

 Eodon and Ilsh are not fel 🙂  And removing the recall aspect by utilizing those areas and I would add the abyss would really poop on the recall scripters parade.

Yeah I forgot the Abyss, can put the high end ores there as well as Fel Dungeons, Fel Lost Lands, Ilshenar, Valley of Eodon.  Think the Yomotsu Mines in Tokuno, Wrong Dungeon Tram are also no recall 'in' zones. 

It would be really simple to make it that all the high end stuff could be in no recall 'in' zones. While the basic ores/wood remain in Tram. 

I would rather they put it back to static locations but if the reason they won't is due to 'scripters' then make it so it is the real miners/lumberjacks can find the stuff and put it in non-recall areas and UP THE RATE of the resource nodes so it isn't such a hit and miss when it comes to random stuff. There are lots of non recall areas that are NOT in fel to cater to the newbie or those who don't wanna go to fel.

Cough and Wind 🙂   

AQHF said:

I think a lot of people situated their houses by remote mountains so they could mine. It will suck if suddenly their house location is rendered meaningless by the removal of all upper end ore. Requiring a long trek to get ore and possibly rendering their mining template ineffective doesn't sound like it is promoting fun to me, or leading to more people mining.

I do like the idea of increasing the time that a vein stays. This would be a payoff for those that actively prospect.

Perhaps we could do double ore in areas where teleport is not allowed. That way those who do the trek get rewarded.

How about if a miner is digging, they can randomly get a map with a 10 minute timer: "You spot a formation of perfect emeralds nearby"-- act on the map, or it goes poof.

   There is that, I don't place my houses up in the top of wind maze for the view 🙂 

Some thoughts,

Please don't nerf my beetle, on the very rare cases that I actually go mining, I want my beetle with me.
And my trusted packies too 🙂

The idea of a type of timer for mining sounds really good. Face it, for most people, 2-3 hours a day mining is about all you can put up with, if that even. Everyone knows that an account that does it for the stated 23 hours a day is running a script. 

The idea of placement of the higher end resources into non recall areas might be a move in the right direction, but really I think that all it would do, would be to reduce the amount they could script in a day. Scripters can write scripts to cover / do just about anything. Agreed, it would definitely cut into the daily haul. 

I did like like the old days when I knew right where to mine if I wanted to get 500 Val ingots. 
I just went around the scripters / to different spots as needed. 

And fel scripters??? Haha I used to have a couple of runebooks full of fel scripter locations and would just recall all around killing them 🙂

Thanks for reading!!

This thread has been ruined, can we get another one started thats back on topic ?

Since this thread is OT make the smelting of higher end ore success rate better 

Zapp said:

Some thoughts,

Please don't nerf my beetle, on the very rare cases that I actually go mining, I want my beetle with me.
And my trusted packies too 🙂

The idea of a type of timer for mining sounds really good. Face it, for most people, 2-3 hours a day mining is about all you can put up with, if that even. Everyone knows that an account that does it for the stated 23 hours a day is running a script. 

The idea of placement of the higher end resources into non recall areas might be a move in the right direction, but really I think that all it would do, would be to reduce the amount they could script in a day. Scripters can write scripts to cover / do just about anything. Agreed, it would definitely cut into the daily haul. 

I did like like the old days when I knew right where to mine if I wanted to get 500 Val ingots. 
I just went around the scripters / to different spots as needed. 

And fel scripters??? Haha I used to have a couple of runebooks full of fel scripter locations and would just recall all around killing them 🙂

Thanks for reading!!

True.

Scripting is an art form.  If someone with enough gumption and time wrote out a script to walk to a spot in Fel without getting killed, I would have to hand it to them; they deserve the resources by that time.

A bot could not fight back against a Fel opponent though. Now, if it can still farm and fight back with precision, then our whole discussion is over.

That scripter has beat UO lol.

I doubt there is an average/a amateur programmer around with that much time, passion, and ingenuity for UO.

But if there is, they win. Lol

Can't have a discussion about gathering resources without that discussion including the cheating and scripting that goes a long with it.   Hardly ruining the thread or derailing it as the Cheating/Scripting was the logic back in the day for making resources random...... Which as history has shown removed the player miners pretty much from the equation and gave scripters free run on wood and ore for way too many years now.  Back then when those of us asked that something be done about the cheating........ We were not asking for the best system to be broken. We were asking that the TOS and the Cheaters be dealt with.  What we got was more cheaters and our profession nerfed into oblivion.  So saying the thread is OT or ruined simply is not accurate as what is and has been talked about is very relevant in the broader picture of resource gathering as a whole.  What I do know is making it more complicated is not going to be appealing to many, but as always the scripters will find a way around, while once again the legit players get the bone.  The wood and ore change from static to random only accomplished making a whole lot of us mad, it was not asked for, it was not wanted and it should have been reverted shortly after it was implemented.  While none of us legit miners and LJs liked the scripters we could at least deal with them and use game mechanics to disrupt them.  

Well said sir 

Tyrath said:

Can't have a discussion about gathering resources without that discussion including the cheating and scripting that goes a long with it.   Hardly ruining the thread or derailing it as the Cheating/Scripting was the logic back in the day for making resources random...... Which as history has shown removed the player miners pretty much from the equation and gave scripters free run on wood and ore for way too many years now.  Back then when those of us asked that something be done about the cheating........ We were not asking for the best system to be broken. We were asking that the TOS and the Cheaters be dealt with.  What we got was more cheaters and our profession nerfed into oblivion.  So saying the thread is OT or ruined simply is not accurate as what is and has been talked about is very relevant in the broader picture of resource gathering as a whole.  What I do know is making it more complicated is not going to be appealing to many, but as always the scripters will find a way around, while once again the legit players get the bone.  The wood and ore change from static to random only accomplished making a whole lot of us mad, it was not asked for, it was not wanted and it should have been reverted shortly after it was implemented.  While none of us legit miners and LJs liked the scripters we could at least deal with them and use game mechanics to disrupt them.  

I think MissE’s idea is a brilliant one. I enjoyed mining actually back in the day. I don’t mine at all now and a change like this could make me start a new miner character.

Now hold on, they're on to something.

Randomized spawns in the recall-enabled facets, but fixed spawns in Ilshenar and Eodon? Stuff gets better the further from a moongate you are. Break it up a lot too, so you're on the move a lot.

a

Just go back to the old system and make it work like it should've,  that after a while that vein/tree runs out and makes a new random location spawn resource.

When I say old system its that static system which I remember it was supposed to work like that but looks like it never did.  

As for scripters a anti cheat system would help curb most, not to mention why isn't there a system in place already that looks for players doing just resource gathering 24/7.

There's no-one I know that mines all day saying it's the greatest feeling ever...

Syncros said:

Just go back to the old system and make it work like it should've,  that after a while that vein/tree runs out and makes a new random location spawn resource.

When I say old system its that static system which I remember it was supposed to work like that but looks like it never did.  

As for scripters a anti cheat system would help curb most, not to mention why isn't there a system in place already that looks for players doing just resource gathering 24/7.

There's no-one I know that mines all day saying it's the greatest feeling ever...

Careful, you'll bring out the "I mine all day and night sometimes because it's relaxing, just like fishing, and I never cheat never ever ever" people.

there is already so much wood out there. no change waste of time and effort

Resource tiles (ore, wood, and fish) should be account bound for collection purposes (think reward clickies that are 1 per account) and reset at server up.  Veins would go back to being static and the average player could mark runes and collect the resources as they need them without scripters being able to interfere.  Once players have their resource library assembled and can easily obtain their own resources the demand for scripted resources all but vanished.

While I’m sure it would take some good research and coding, it would solve every issue brought up in this thread.

Wood could be fixed by reducing the commonality of oak (and probably Ash as well), and spreading the points out to the other woods - then adding a lumberjack tool analogous to the Gargoyle Pickaxe or Prospector's tool (or both, for 2 level boost). having THREE "100 Skill" woods was a bad idea in 2006, let alone 2018. If wood worked like ore, the divisions would be like this

Wood: 50%
Other woods 50%, divided in 21 increments.

• Oak 6/21 (*50%) = 14.3%
• Ash 5/21 (*50%) = 12.9%
• Yew 4/21 (*50%) = 9.5%
• Heartwood 3/21 (*50%) = 7.1%
• Bloodwood 2/21 (*50%) =  4.8%
• Frostwood 1/21 (*50%) = 2.4%

I'm dead set against taking wood back to fixed locations as it was 99% impossible to get some woods on my LOW POPULATION shard from the recall LJs back then. The chopping sounds from a Frostwood tree (that only gave maybe 10 chops) that was near my alliance's player town north of the mountains above Luna only went quiet when the tree was empty. Getting a swing in on the tree in before it was empty was more luck than skill.

And that was 10-12 years ago, when real players actually had a PRAYER against scripters, because they were mostly competing against a local guy (even if the local guy was that guy whose houses all burned - he at least SOLD on most of the shards), not people scripting for easy transfer and sale on Atlantic.


As for Ore, I'd love to see ALL ore elementals get natural spawns, DC elementals get upgraded to 25 large like the others, and DC elementals spawn from Gargoyle Pickaxes. Most of my gold comes from the Blackthorn spawn, as does most of my agapite (via transformation cauldrons). 

The ONLY smelting talisman that isn't a waste of Blacksmith points is the gold one, and ONLY because of that dungeon spawn. A combat-capable miner can use up a talisman in 60-90 minutes. The maps are a joke, currently. Making the timer on a talisman a WEEK, instead of a day, might help, but that's treating a symptom, NOT the disorder.

Increase the map yields; increase mining yields in general - 1 ore currently produces 0-2 ingots (depending on fails), compared to a SINGLE chop producing 10-11 logs. 2 ore weighs more than 11 logs or 22 boards. Reduce the weights and allow more ore per dig. 

High-output spots remain high-output regardless of the ore color. High-color percentage spots remain that percentage level, even if a different color (or even, if it goes to iron and gets raised back to DC or Shadow with tools). You don't need fixed ore sites as much if you can get what you need from enough random spots (Especially using the GPA and PT) or maps that are worth using.

As for Ore, I'd love to see ALL ore elementals get natural spawns, DC elementals get upgraded to 25 large like the others, and DC elementals spawn from Gargoyle Pickaxes. Most of my gold comes from the Blackthorn spawn, as does most of my agapite (via transformation cauldrons).

This will be the bane of mining. The gold elementals in BT's Dungeon have to go (or the ore in their loot removed). The fact that it's possible to harvest gold ingots at a faster rate than mining can harvest iron ingots should tell us how unbalanced it all is. Ore elementals should only ever come from gargoyle pickaxes, which is to say, the act of mining.

Increase the map yields; increase mining yields in general - 1 ore currently produces 0-2 ingots (depending on fails), compared to a SINGLE chop producing 10-11 logs. 2 ore weighs more than 11 logs or 22 boards. Reduce the weights and allow more ore per dig.

I would like to suggest an alternative. The maps should not be BOD rewards, but these should spawn like other treasure maps, and require a cartographer to decode. Mining already pairs with cartography so it's not a huge leap. The real bonus though is that you're not spending a ton of ingots to earn the map, thus nullifying the majority of the yield you receive from it, meaning you'll get more yield simply by removing the cost of acquiring the map through BODs.


Beyond that though I don't understand why you want to increase overall ore yields so drastically. Perhaps you could elaborate, because in my mind increasing yields only makes the mining playstyle less viable as the reward for going to a rock and hitting it with a shovel becomes less worth the monotony one has to suffer to achieve it. I'd rather yields go down so that ore value goes up, so more players are motivated to mine.


-----

And here's a general question for everyone, regarding fire beetles. Can someone explain to me what is the gameplay value of smelting at all in our current situation? What's the point? Why even have smelting and fire beetles at all? Why not skip all the pretense and have miners pluck ready-made ingots straight from the dirt? This is not an actual suggestion - what I am trying to point out is that once upon a time there was a natural barrier, where consciously designed or not, that was an important factor in the value of ingots. Later this entire barrier was almost completely nullified, yet we all go on thinking that smelting and fire beetles are a necessity. They contradict each other. Smelting had meaning because you had to take the ore back to a forge. Fire beetles remove that requirement, and thus neither should even exist if we are going to go the "neuter the game" route.

Lumberjacking is similar, but even worse. Why bother having logs at all, if you can convert them into boards with the very tool used to harvest the logs and with no skill or cost requirement. Why not just skip the nonsense and remove logs altogether rather than harbor some illusion of "realism" that doesn't actually provide an economic contribution?

I resubscribed to UO for a month just to participate in this discussion.

I feel Deraj has made many good points, and elevated the conversation beyond a mere "Randomized bad, don't like, want easier" to one of merit, so a shoutout to him/her.

Keep in mind, I am one of those strange people who DO like to harvest/craft just for the sake of it. I've never sold  a piece of equipment, or an ingot, or a BOD. I like to collect crafting materials and make things. That's it. I'm not a really big fan of PvE or PvP. I'd love to play the entire game as nothing but a merchant again, harvesting and crafting for guildmates or other players. Not for profit, but to fill that societal role. (We won't get into player denisty.. I know Catskills is basically a dead shard, but it's home.)

Here is my take on mining, and to a lesser extent, lumberjacking. 

1. The Fire Beetle - Unfortunately, I cannot live without this, as there is no remedy for the UX issue it resolves - Drag and drop.
   
   I never had a problem doing this in my younger years, mining a mountain and dragging the ore pile back to a forge to be smelted, but quite frankly, my wrist doth protest much if I try to do it these days. And back then, there was only Iron, so only 1 pile to drag. Now, it could be several piles of different types, at varying distances. This is, quite literally, painful to do.
   
   While I concede that it is a bit of an overwhelming advantage, the alternative can be worse. My solution? Allow crafters (Tinkering/Carpentry/Blacksmithing maybe) to make Portable Forges with so many charges that can be placed anywhere in the world for a duration and smelt either a limited amount of ore, or only work for a certain amount of time. Scripters won't use it, it nullifies the need for the fire beetle (Which at face value, I don't like being required to have a mount of a certain type just to be able to mine - God forbid it dies as I have no tamer or pet rez potions), and gives crafters more prominence.
   
   
2. BOD's - I am also in complete agreement that the bank rate is way, way, WAAAY to low. The BOD should never have been banked for so little. 2% is ludicrous. 
   
   I think the higher the rarity of BOD, the higher the bank rank would be. This would make logical sense - The scarcer the resource, the more it's worth. As Deraj pointed out, I don't see an issue with banking lower level BOD's to get access to higher level items at a more reasonable rate.
   
   I would suggest decreasing the points required for lower tier rewards (And lowering the corresponding BOD value as a whole, for things Bronze or lower, for example), and increasing the bank rate on a scale. Maybe small iron armors are worth 10%, and large BOD's 15%, but as you increase the BOD material rarity, that bank value can go up as high as 75-100% of their original value (For things like Valorite BODs). 
   
   Now the scarcity of the resource affects the scale. If by some other means, higher tier resources become more common, drop the scaled value. Halve the scarcity, halve the percentage. But certainly more than 2% for smalls. 20% for large, OK for IRON, but not for Apagite and higher.
   
   
3. Resource Randomization - I have no problem with random resources, I really don't. But again, I think the rates at which you get those higher tier resources are a bit.. Lackluster.
   
   Having said that, I do appreciate that there are ways you can mitigate that in small ways, with Gargoyle Pickaxes, Prospectors tools, Resource Maps, and Cauldrons of Transmutation. These are wonderful ideas, but not implemented with crafters in mind. Just look at how you get them, or how they're used. 
   
   Prospectors Tools - Through BOD's (See point #2). A better alternative to spending valuable BOD bank points would be to make them craftable, maybe with lower tier resources and gems. Lumberjakcks need an equivalent of this, as wood is even more infuriating to find.
   
   Gargoyle Pickaxe - Through BODS (See point #2). The bigger problem with THESE is, i will likely have to fight an elemental. I love playing my crafting mule, just as a crafter and nothing else. I don't want to have a combat skill to be able to dig a hole in a mountain.
   
   Resource Maps - Covetous Void Pool or BODS (See point #2). Again, I don't want to have to do combat to be able to harvest, and the bank rate is too low for BODs to be worth it.
   
   Cauldrons of Transmutation - Covetous Void Pool or BODS.. See the same for Resource Maps, and the fact that these are from Alchemy BOD's, which I'm not sure are any better or worse. Plus, the ratio of 3-to-1 really doesn't make them worth it to begin with.
   
   
4. Harvesting -
   
   

   Kyronix said:

   4. Mining and lumberjacking should be automatic processes - once you start harvesting a spot your character will continue harvesting until the spot is either depleted or you stop the process. Having to hit a key for each individual harvest of a spot is incredibly monotonous and mind-numbing. It serves no purpose against scripters but only makes the activity more aggravating.
   
   

   This would probably be pretty easy to implement and would go a long way to promoting the UX of resource harvesting overall.

   PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make  autoharvest until depleted. And smelting too, if possible. This would make my need for UOAssist or EC macros go away, and I couldn't want anything more.

I won't get into things like Runics and Recipies, which are a whole other ball of wax, but I hope something comes of this discussion.

That's my 2 gp. Thanks for listening.

That’s more like 2 platinum. Some very nice ideas, I would love to see them implemented.

I love my fire beetle. It lets me mine without being a Blink Miner. LRC is all that's needed for a miner to carry ore back and forth to a forge-- or dropped in a box for later smelting, so I just don't get the hate for the beetles. When I mine, I prefer to walk along the mountainsides and in caves, trying to scare up elementals, and feeding my haul to my adorable beetle. I honestly don't get the hate for fire beetles. I did the stomping back and forth to the forge thing when I was training up, and it's fine for awhile then gets boring and time consuming. I tried being a Blink Miner. Don't care for it. I like smelting with my beetle, and taking on elementals with my swordswoman-miner. Elementals are actually the only thing that makes mining worthwhile. Hoping to hit the RNG and get three elementals on a high end ore spot is the only chance to get enough of the high end ores, in my opinion. I wish garg axes would spawn eles more often.

I don't get enough gold ingots from mining, so I go to blackthorn to get more gold ingots when I need them. The reason that I need so much gold is tied to the BOD system. I need to make lots of PoF for crafting. The bribery system to get the right BoD is random, so if it doesn't bribe up to exceptional, 20 gold BoDs are the first non-exceptional BoDs that will make PoF. I have filled all my non-gold PoF BoDs, but have a bunch of gold ones sitting around waiting for me to farm Blackthorns. I will never get enough gold ingots from actual mining to fill them.

Things I find fun when mining:

Using garg axes to scare up elementals.

Getting lots of ore from one spot.

Returning 3 or more times to a high end ore spot and having it give me more of the same.

Getting the big gems

My fire beetle.

My fire beetle's cute buzzing sound.

When my fire beetle doesn't get riled up by a rat on that it senses through cave walls.

Getting enough ingots I can actually fill a BoD, without it taking forever.

Deraj, I'm sorry, but having been mining in the game for 15 years now, your suggestions sound like someone begging for the old ways to come back so they can make things even MORE firmly controlled by the scripters than they are currently (and how they were back then). That, or you're so caught up in nostalgia you don't actually remember what it was really like. Too many suggestions I see these days seem to be using a tactic of begging for "don't do x", as a way of trying to get x implemented, by some sort of argumentative jujitsu, like the old Brer Rabbit fable with the briar patch.

Adding ore elementals doesn't have to be a continuous spawn of all types. Heck, people have been suggesting an elemental-based champion spawn for ages, given that all the other super slayers are represented (Repond, Arachnid, Reptile, Undead, Demon, and Fey). You could even tie it into the lore of past events (where we had the ore elemental invasions around the time alacrity scrolls were introduced, and then blackrock elementals). You could have (difficulties mixed up to provide more complementary pairings, and you could make the elementals tougher than the mined-up versions) DC & Gold eles (since both already have natural spawn) for the first wave, Shadow and Agapite for wave 2, Copper and Verite for Wave 3, Bronze and Valorite for Wave 4, with the boss being a blackrock elemental. With the fast decay at champs, combined with the special abilities of the elementals, it would actually have not that much ore looted (Shadow and Valorite are immune to pets and most spells, copper and valorite have damage reflect, bronze and valorite have a ranged attack, and verite and valorite BREAK non-blessed/insured gear). Partially, because how many people are going to have a mixed party of weapon, magic and pet users with mining? The only way fire beetles would survive there is if trained up (requiring high taming), and they would be ineffective against much of the later spawn as an attack pet (what's the tamer gonna do - beat the valorite eles to death with a staff of the magi while the beetle tanks, all while taking 50% damage back plus the eles' attacks?).

BTW, my T-Hunters ALREADY have gone back to doing maps without mining, as there was little effect if you know what to do and have access to a Davies Locker (maybe an extra minute looking). Once you get the degrees of the location from the DL, you got at worst a 15x15 step grid to search - and some T-hunters using EC can find the exact spot just using the in-game maps and lining them up. Trying to link ore maps to carto is just trying to justify the horrible decision to make mining more important to T-Hunting again (that didn't actually work in practice). And, I'm saying that as a THB Guildmaster on my shard with 2 T-hunters.

Deraj, I'm sorry, but having been mining in the game for 15 years now, your suggestions sound like someone begging for the old ways to come back so they can make things even MORE firmly controlled by the scripters than they are currently (and how they were back then). That, or you're so caught up in nostalgia you don't actually remember what it was really like. Too many suggestions I see these days seem to be using a tactic of begging for "don't do x", as a way of trying to get x implemented, by some sort of argumentative jujitsu, like the old Brer Rabbit fable with the briar patch.

This is not nostalgia speaking. It is an observation of the design of the game, how we act and why we do what we do. When I look at the situation as it is now, and observe all of these players spending their time on a monotonous activity in their own little single player bubble worlds feverishly mining resources with values that have been severely depreciated not merely by scripters which are a symptom of a problem, but the root problem itself of the easy mode buttons that have been implemented without thought to any kind of economic balance, to be used primarily in yet another closed single player system of BODs and mule-crafting and contributes very little to any kind of functional economy, I see that as a problem. I won't argue that the way it worked in ye old days had its tedium and monotony (most of which comes from the old way, somewhat contrary to your point). But one thing old UO had that new UO doesn't, is a functional economy that supported the viability of mining and crafting as a *primary* playstyle.

No, I do not wish to merely return to the ancient past and leave it at that. I too wish to address the monotony and UX of mining. I only think that solving that problem by increasing the amount of ore we can harvest is a hamfisted, short sighted, unimaginative, and ultimately destructive path. I look at the current situation and see an utter travesty. If your solution is just "more ore!" then I don't really know what to tell you other than have fun with your multiple 60k piles of useless metal and no one to trade it with.

Adding ore elementals doesn't have to be a continuous spawn of all types. Heck, people have been suggesting an elemental-based champion spawn for ages, given that all the other super slayers are represented (Repond, Arachnid, Reptile, Undead, Demon, and Fey). You could even tie it into the lore of past events (where we had the ore elemental invasions around the time alacrity scrolls were introduced, and then blackrock elementals). You could have (difficulties mixed up to provide more complementary pairings, and you could make the elementals tougher than the mined-up versions) DC & Gold eles (since both already have natural spawn) for the first wave, Shadow and Agapite for wave 2, Copper and Verite for Wave 3, Bronze and Valorite for Wave 4, with the boss being a blackrock elemental. With the fast decay at champs, combined with the special abilities of the elementals, it would actually have not that much ore looted (Shadow and Valorite are immune to pets and most spells, copper and valorite have damage reflect, bronze and valorite have a ranged attack, and verite and valorite BREAK non-blessed/insured gear). Partially, because how many people are going to have a mixed party of weapon, magic and pet users with mining? The only way fire beetles would survive there is if trained up (requiring high taming), and they would be ineffective against much of the later spawn as an attack pet (what's the tamer gonna do - beat the valorite eles to death with a staff of the magi while the beetle tanks, all while taking 50% damage back plus the eles' attacks?).

Thank you for the clarification on this, and while I personally have mixed feelings about ore elementals in a champ spawn, I can accept that the nature of the spawn itself could possibly be made not to provide unbalanced ore yields. My problem with ore elementals is what the post before yours wrote:

I don't get enough gold ingots from mining, so I go to blackthorn to get more gold ingots when I need them

This should tell us all we need to know about the danger of naturally spawning ore elementals. What is the point of mining when you can get far more ore yield from combat? It's a game-breaking precedent.

BTW, my T-Hunters ALREADY have gone back to doing maps without mining, as there was little effect if you know what to do and have access to a Davies Locker (maybe an extra minute looking). Once you get the degrees of the location from the DL, you got at worst a 15x15 step grid to search - and some T-hunters using EC can find the exact spot just using the in-game maps and lining them up. Trying to link ore maps to carto is just trying to justify the horrible decision to make mining more important to T-Hunting again (that didn't actually work in practice). And, I'm saying that as a THB Guildmaster on my shard with 2 T-hunters.

1) If you were able to get ore maps in the wild like treasure maps, you'd have a lot more ore maps than if you were getting them only from BODs.

2) Without the ingot cost of acquiring the map through BODs, you are effectively increasing the yield of the map without actually increasing the amount of ore in the vein.

3) Anything involving maps should belong in the domain of the cartographer, on principle. Mining pairs with cartography; just because you yourself can get by without it does not invalidate the pairing. Here we have an obvious opportunity to strengthen a skill dynamic and foster more skill diversity but instead let's just press the easy button again and neuter the game some more.

Hmm....

Back in the day (97).. the world of UO and the crafter were at war... You had dangers of collecting your precious cargo... no forge to smelt it down to a carry size was a major issue.  Till a few GM's took pity and placed forges at key sites of miners..  Remember we didn't have the precious golden ore smelting buggies.. We did have Pks who loved to hunt us down and steal away hours of work.

This was also the case with lumbejacks... but they did have it a tad bit easer they could reduce the logs to boards and cut the weight in half.  Packies were not boneded so you went through them like water.. and they didn't quite follow you when you recalled..

The one thing I could count on was the set spots to dig or chop...

I do not know who's big idea it was to shuffle the ore and wood types but if I find out he is getting such a nuggie!  

Look The dev made many ways to get the ore / ingots /logs /wood type  even now in the new bods are ways to get maps and tools to use.  Prospector tools, Gar picks, ... even reward items.. Stumps, and Ore Carts.  Merchant and Pirate ships...  Don't even get me started on ore ele's

The big issue is the higher end ore and wood.  The chance of finding a Frostwood tree is harder then winning the lotto!  Btw that rock hammer we get from bods...sux big time...

Up the chance of a spot changing to a higher ore or log...

Most of the forges I saw back in the day was from a bug errr unintended feature.  

Syncros said:

Most of the forges I saw back in the day was from a bug errr unintended feature.  

I remember someone once had a portable forge a GM gave them.. He was likened unto a God on that server.

 

Lady_Storm said:

Look The dev made many ways to get the ore / ingots /logs /wood type  even now in the new bods are ways to get maps and tools to use.  Prospector tools, Gar picks, ... even reward items.. Stumps, and Ore Carts.  Merchant and Pirate ships...  Don't even get me started on ore ele's

  Yes they did and made it way more complicated than anyone wanted. Changes to mining should have ended with Prospector tools, Garg Picks and mined up ore elementals then they would not have had to add all this other nonsense to make ore and wood obtainable.  And in the case of the maps and tools stuff that almost no one uses.   I just want to be a miner/LJ/Crafter again and head out to the whatever spots and mine up what I want or need that day.   I don't want to deal with bod reward tools and maps, wonder where the ore or wood is, or as much as I like high seas be merch ship pirate.  I don't want a house full of 100+ mining carts and tree stumps.  I just want to go back to what was not broken to start with instead of making the system more stupid than it already is.

  I don't have rose colored glasses in this matter.  I had zero problems back in the day finding ore spots and later rare wood trees that were not being scripted to death.   The scripters pretty much rotated off the same 3 runebooks worth of locations, that were low risk and easy.  I found more than a few high yielding locations that had some spawn that made it scripter unfriendly but no problem for a mule with 75 macing and tactics that could heal.  Fel scripters I loved it was like free ore and wood when you whacked them and yes I would roam fel looking for where they farmed and would whack them. 

Here is another long-winded comment I need to make about all of this. I feel like people look at my posts where I list multiple points of things that need to be fixed, pick out one, imagine the current situation but with a single suggestion from my post, and then declare this to be the end of the world. But I'm not talking about applying a bandaid to the current situation, I'm talking about a top-to-bottom overhaul and rethinking how we do this altogether. This requires some imagination to understand the end picture: gameplay with depth, complexity that fosters a wide variety of playstyles and most importantly, player interaction.

Come with me on a journey a moment, let's explore the possibilities. I do not pose these as Deraj's Official Suggestions™ but as examples to illustrate the underlying principles of what I am talking about. Okay, so *just as an example* let's pretend the fire beetle was removed entirely. Instead of assuming the worst let's consider what streamlined mining could look like.
1. I've already suggested an auto-mine function that would let a player auto-mine a spot until it depletes. This alone will save the common miner a massive number of unnecessary clicks.

2. Suppose now, we removed all the different ore piles except the big pile, and for simplicity sake, we said one ore pile = 1 ingot, and adjusted its weight to 6 stones (whereas currently it is 12) so we're looking at approximately the same yield roughly. No more having to combine piles of ore to save space. Yet another huge pointless time sink cut out.

3. Suppose now, there was an additional function added on to the aforementioned auto-mine function, where you could have the ore go directly into the pack horse. Doesn't even hit your own backpack. Imagine how many clicks this would save. Auto-mine and it goes directly into the packhorse. EZ.

4. When you find yourself back at the forge after a hard day's mining, imagine being able to open up a smelt menu that will show you your potential yields / waste, lets your smelt each pile one by one or smelt everything you and your pack horse are carrying at once. No need to d-click the ore piles one by one. Not having to re-smelt an ore pile when the smelt fails (and no having to lose half the ore when it fails). EZ.

5. Now imagine a possible new dimension to pack animals. Instead of buying a pack horse from a stablemaster you can buy a regular horse and attach a craftable pack to turn it into a packhorse. Different types and qualities of packs could add some depth to this, and the horses could be trained with taming with abilities that improve their hauling capacity / speed. Lot of possibilities here.

Again, these are just random "ideas". My point is to show that even in a world without fire beetles, there are many different ways that old cruel monotony of mining can be improved upon if we just use our imagination a little bit. You can add challenge and complexity to the game that makes it harder or perhaps even impossible for a bot to operate as well as improving the value of the ore, while at the same time reducing the monotony and the frustrating click-fest that mining has always been. Having to walk back to the forge truly is not the worst thing in the world.

@Deraj
Let me see if I have this right
Recall to mine spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
 Packie full select next packie ( I am sure a script writer could add this part)
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie  so on and so on until all packies full
Recall home and auto smelt.

IMHO this sounds like a Scripters dream because you have almost automated everything for them.

Too much text for a macro  you I can see have never written code..

Yes I would love to just have them revert back to the old way... but all of that data is gone.. outside our mining books that is.

Because the mining has rotated all the many mining spots to new ore types, a lot of it common iron. It would be best to do a full reset of all mining and do what we did when the shards were new... Will it happen? No   Its a nice dream but the can of worms it would start is not a pretty picture.

Lady_Storm said:

Too much text for a macro  you I can see have never written code..

Not for a scriptor but if you read the post I was refering to all the auto part is done by UO not the script.  So basically it is recall, start mine, recall, start mine that is it because UO does the rest.

Lady_Storm said:

Yes I would love to just have them revert back to the old way... but all of that data is gone.. outside our mining books that is.

Because the mining has rotated all the many mining spots to new ore types, a lot of it common iron. It would be best to do a full reset of all mining and do what we did when the shards were new... Will it happen? No   Its a nice dream but the can of worms it would start is not a pretty picture.

We could always remark new rune books

Bilbo said:

@ Deraj
Let me see if I have this right
Recall to mine spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
 Packie full select next packie ( I am sure a script writer could add this part)
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie  so on and so on until all packies full
Recall home and auto smelt.

IMHO this sounds like a Scripters dream because you have almost automated everything for them.

  All good until you come to second pack animal always been a problem writing a script that will recognize more than one pack animal. 

Tyrath said:

Bilbo said:

@ Deraj
Let me see if I have this right
Recall to mine spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
 Packie full select next packie ( I am sure a script writer could add this part)
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie  so on and so on until all packies full
Recall home and auto smelt.

IMHO this sounds like a Scripters dream because you have almost automated everything for them.

  All good until you come to second pack animal always been a problem writing a script that will recognize more than one pack animal. 

TY  But even using one packie it still looks like a scripters dream with all the auto being done by UO for them.

Instead of making changes that are focused on hurting scripters, I'd prefer the focus is on helping every day players.

Maximus_Neximus said:

Instead of making changes that are focused on hurting scripters, I'd prefer the focus is on helping every day players.

AMEN

@Kyronix Yes well you know the system is totally stuffed when you get more high end ores and wood from pirate ships with a mage or tamer or pally than you get with a Miner or Lumberjack who has devoted 100 skill points to a skill.

This is what needs to be fixed. I shouldn't have to go to round about ways, by doing bods to get mining maps etc or covetous to get 'rewards' to let me find stuff. 

They stuffed the whole thing they need to fix it. My idea above of upping the spawn rate for the high end stuff into non recall areas, ilshenar, eodon, stygian abyss, etc etc solves a lot of the current problem.

In no other game can a main skill be usurped by any other character skill.  It is like making a lumberjack be able to do magery better than a flipping mage. Sorry, just fix it.

MissE said:

@ Kyronix Yes well you know the system is totally stuffed when you get more high end ores and wood from pirate ships with a mage or tamer or pally than you get with a Miner or Lumberjack who has devoted 100 skill points to a skill.

This is what needs to be fixed. I shouldn't have to go to round about ways, by doing bods to get mining maps etc or covetous to get 'rewards' to let me find stuff. 

They stuffed the whole thing they need to fix it. My idea above of upping the spawn rate for the high end stuff into non recall areas, ilshenar, eodon, stygian abyss, etc etc solves a lot of the current problem.

In no other game can a main skill be usurped by any other character skill.  It is like making a lumberjack be able to do magery better than a flipping mage. Sorry, just fix it.

@Kyronix NO THANK YOU to this idea it is just another punishment for the honest player.  Just do away with the random spawn because I never had a problem with getting high end ore and wood.  Guess I knew more good spots than the scripters.  Stop punishing the honest players by trying to control scripting, just ban the scripters, problem solved.

Bilbo said:

@ Deraj
Let me see if I have this right
Recall to mine spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
 Packie full select next packie ( I am sure a script writer could add this part)
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie  so on and so on until all packies full
Recall home and auto smelt.

IMHO this sounds like a Scripters dream because you have almost automated everything for them.

I've already addressed this in my initial post in this thread. I want to kill runebook/recall mining.

Since the object of any game is to have fun, I guess the question for miners should be what is fun for them?

For recall miners, what do you find fun about recall mining?

Would you still like mining if you did it a different way?

Do you find recall mining rewarding?

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

@ Deraj
Let me see if I have this right
Recall to mine spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
 Packie full select next packie ( I am sure a script writer could add this part)
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie  so on and so on until all packies full
Recall home and auto smelt.

IMHO this sounds like a Scripters dream because you have almost automated everything for them.

I've already addressed this in my initial post in this thread. I want to kill runebook/recall mining.

You can not kill it for scripters without yet again punishing the honest player.  There is only one way to fix this and EA/BS/UO will never do it or they would have done it many, many years ago.

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

@ Deraj
Let me see if I have this right
Recall to mine spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
 Packie full select next packie ( I am sure a script writer could add this part)
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie  so on and so on until all packies full
Recall home and auto smelt.

IMHO this sounds like a Scripters dream because you have almost automated everything for them.

I've already addressed this in my initial post in this thread. I want to kill runebook/recall mining.

You can not kill it for scripters without yet again punishing the honest player.  There is only one way to fix this and EA/BS/UO will never do it or they would have done it many, many years ago.

So if I make suggestions that make it easier for players you accuse me of helping the scripters, if I make suggestions that limit scripters you accuse me of punishing players.

The aforementioned ideas are mentioned to show that a lot of the excessive clicking that makes up the monotony of mining can be massively reduced. Since a lot of users here are having trouble imagining what a world without fire beetles could be like, I attempted to show them. Scripters will always power through the clicking, it doesn't matter to them if it's one click or a thousand clicks. The devastating efficiency of script mining is made possibly first and foremost by runebook mining, and to a lesser degree by fire beetles.

Sure, even in my preferred scenario, scripters could still find a way by setting up miners to walk along pre-programmed routes. Yet at the same time, this method is fraught with greater risks, and their efficiency and their impact is severely diminished. You and other users were telling me earlier that scripters don't use fire beetles because of the risk of losing them. Now imagine how much riskier it would be for them if they had to have a pack animal in tow and couldn't readily recall away with it. How much less efficient would that be for a bot?

But this isn't merely about killing scripting. It's about increasing the value of the reward while making the process a little less efficient from a logistical point of view, that reduces the impact of scripters and at the same time provides better depth and meaning to the long-dead miner playstyle.

Last Object Last target macro is your friend, where do you get all this massive clicking and from what I understand the EC has it even easier.  Scripters are already using rails.  Ban all Scripters/Multiboxers or UO needs to publish programs that do this for honest players to put us on a even playing field, problem solved.

So, don't make it less monotonous for players, but make it even easier for everyone to flood the market with useless resources. Got it.

Ban all Scripters/Multiboxers

That's not going to happen. Get real.

Keep it civil please.

Deraj said:

So, don't make it less monotonous for players, but make it even easier for everyone to flood the market with useless resources. Got it.

Ban all Scripters/Multiboxers

That's not going to happen. Get real.

So last object, last target macro is to monotonous.  You do understand that your auto mine/put in packies benefits scripters way more than the honest player.  Everytime a method is introduced to stop scripting the scripters just rewrite their scripts and the honest player is even further punished and your suggestions are no different.  Scripters will recall to a cave and use a rail script to strip mine until packie is full recall home empty packie recall to cave rinse and repeat.  So how is this going to help the honest player?  Also maybe the market needs to be flooded so the scripters lose their control of the market and go away.

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

So, don't make it less monotonous for players, but make it even easier for everyone to flood the market with useless resources. Got it.

Ban all Scripters/Multiboxers

That's not going to happen. Get real.

So last object, last target macro is to monotonous.  You do understand that your auto mine/put in packies benefits scripters way more than the honest player.  Everytime a method is introduced to stop scripting the scripters just rewrite their scripts and the honest player is even further punished and your suggestions are no different.  Scripters will recall to a cave and use a rail script to strip mine until packie is full recall home empty packie recall to cave rinse and repeat.  So how is this going to help the honest player?  Also maybe the market needs to be flooded so the scripters lose their control of the market and go away.

Yes, hitting a key for each and every strike of the pickaxe is monotonous, and not having to do that it a considerable boost to the UX. Scripters are already auto-mining, so I don't see what your issue is. By itself it doesn't have a meaningful impact on yield.

You do understand that your auto mine/put in packies benefits scripters way more than the honest player.

I am not trying to be condescending when I say this, but there is a concept here that you don't have fully worked out yet. We've all been buzzing around a certain principle, that when you make it harder for the scripter, you make it harder for the players, and when you make it easier for the player, you make it easier for the scripter. But the edge that scripters will always have over the non-scripters is their ability to power through clicking. If you turn a 1-click process into a 1000-click process, it's the non-scripter that has to endure the mounting dreariness of each and every click; the scripter on the other hand couldn't care less, because, like you correctly said, they will readjust their script and move on. My message to you is that by taking certain steps to reduce the # of clicks in a process, we're evening the playing field between the scripters and non-scripters, but at the same time, paving the way for new logistical challenges that make it harder to script efficiently. This is a key point: my goal here isn't to end scripting. because I believe that is impossible; my goal as far as scripting is concerned is to reduce its efficiency. Recall-mining and fire beetles are far bigger threats to efficiency than a simple auto-mine function.

You are completely wrong in your statement above. Perhaps you are thinking that it if ore went straight into the pack horse, it is easier to script. Yes, that is one or two extra lines of code the scripter does not need in their script. But in a situation where pack horses are a necessity, the scripter does not care if 10 clicks are involved in moving the ore from backpack to horse, or if 0 clicks are involved. If anything, a self-interested scripter would want mining to be boring and have as many clicks as possible in order to discourage competition from non-scripters (to be clear, I'm not accusing you of being a self-interested scripter).

Again, you are failing to take into account that in my preferred scenario, recall-mining would not be a thing, and that a lot of my points rests on this assumption. A miner would have to walk to the mountain and then walk back to the forge. Yes, even this is possible to script, but a) it's less efficient and b) fraught with greater risk. If you are going to respond to me again, kindly acknowledge this point - you don't have to agree with it, just acknowledge it, so we don't have to spend any more time clarifying it.

The pack horse, just like the fire beetle, is in danger of being killed - this is the exact point that you and other who disagree with me have been making. This does reduce the efficiency of script mining.

Also maybe the market needs to be flooded so the scripters lose their control of the market and go away.

Seriously listen to yourself. You're talking about killing mining for everyone to get rid of people taking advantage of flawed, monotonous gameplay. Even if it was no longer profitable to script mine and the scripters "went away", they'll be back the moment it becomes profitable again.

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

So, don't make it less monotonous for players, but make it even easier for everyone to flood the market with useless resources. Got it.

Ban all Scripters/Multiboxers

That's not going to happen. Get real.

So last object, last target macro is to monotonous.  You do understand that your auto mine/put in packies benefits scripters way more than the honest player.  Everytime a method is introduced to stop scripting the scripters just rewrite their scripts and the honest player is even further punished and your suggestions are no different.  Scripters will recall to a cave and use a rail script to strip mine until packie is full recall home empty packie recall to cave rinse and repeat.  So how is this going to help the honest player?  Also maybe the market needs to be flooded so the scripters lose their control of the market and go away.

Yes, hitting a key for each and every strike of the pickaxe is monotonous, and not having to do that it a considerable boost to the UX. Scripters are already auto-mining, so I don't see what your issue is. By itself it doesn't have a meaningful impact on yield.

You do understand that your auto mine/put in packies benefits scripters way more than the honest player.

I am not trying to be condescending when I say this, but there is a concept here that you don't have fully worked out yet. We've all been buzzing around a certain principle, that when you make it harder for the scripter, you make it harder for the players, and when you make it easier for the player, you make it easier for the scripter. But the edge that scripters will always have over the non-scripters is their ability to power through clicking. If you turn a 1-click process into a 1000-click process, it's the non-scripter that has to endure the mounting dreariness of each and every click; the scripter on the other hand couldn't care less, because, like you correctly said, they will readjust their script and move on. My message to you is that by taking certain steps to reduce the # of clicks in a process, we're evening the playing field between the scripters and non-scripters, but at the same time, paving the way for new logistical challenges that make it harder to script efficiently. This is a key point: my goal here isn't to end scripting. because I believe that is impossible; my goal as far as scripting is concerned is to reduce its efficiency. Recall-mining and fire beetles are far bigger threats to efficiency than a simple auto-mine function.

You are completely wrong in your statement above. Perhaps you are thinking that it if ore went straight into the pack horse, it is easier to script. Yes, that is one or two extra lines of code the scripter does not need in their script. But in a situation where pack horses are a necessity, the scripter does not care if 10 clicks are involved in moving the ore from backpack to horse, or if 0 clicks are involved. If anything, a self-interested scripter would want mining to be boring and have as many clicks as possible in order to discourage competition from non-scripters (to be clear, I'm not accusing you of being a self-interested scripter).

Again, you are failing to take into account that in my preferred scenario, recall-mining would not be a thing, and that a lot of my points rests on this assumption. A miner would have to walk to the mountain and then walk back to the forge. Yes, even this is possible to script, but a) it's less efficient and b) fraught with greater risk. If you are going to respond to me again, kindly acknowledge this point - you don't have to agree with it, just acknowledge it, so we don't have to spend any more time clarifying it.

The pack horse, just like the fire beetle, is in danger of being killed - this is the exact point that you and other who disagree with me have been making. This does reduce the efficiency of script mining.

Also maybe the market needs to be flooded so the scripters lose their control of the market and go away.

Seriously listen to yourself. You're talking about killing mining for everyone to get rid of people taking advantage of flawed, monotonous gameplay. Even if it was no longer profitable to script mine and the scripters "went away", they'll be back the moment it becomes profitable again.

You do know that if you hold down a key it repeats, LOL.  You do not understand Scriptsf esp if you have no clue what a rail is.

You really do have nothing to say, do you? Let's go back to your must stunning point though:

Also maybe the market needs to be flooded so the scripters lose their control of the market and go away.

Tell me honestly, if you don't care if the market is flooded and mining is killed, why are you so fixated on scripting? Think about it. They're not preventing you from mining. They're not getting in your way or even interacting with you on the off-chance you happen to spot one. So if you're not concerned with the one thing that they do that hurts all miners, which is over-saturating the market with resources, then how exactly are they affecting you? How are they ruining your personal single player adventure?

Please learn about scripting and the fact that your keyboard has a repeat function and also how to make MACROS with the CC or EC which ever client you use.  Everything you have tried to do a scripter can work around so alls you are doing is making it harder for honest players.  There are 2 ways to get rid of a scripter #1 ban them and we all know UO will not do that or #2 make it were it is no longer profitable for them to script.  Nothing UO has done has stopped scripting and nothing you have proposed will do it either because they will just rewrite their scripts.  GOOD BYE I AM DONE.

Who wants to kill being able to recall into my mining caves and doing my usual 60 minute mining ??   Back off jr.  Stop trying to ruin the last fun thing I got to do!!!

I happen to like mining.. chopping wood is for getting my mind off what's going on around me, fishing is my go to if I want a little surprise pop up...

Look..   the pirate ships are fine.. yes I think that is where more of the 60k deeds are from that are showing up.   Ore elemental's are fine, I do wish for a way to get the Taint and the rest of those regs outside of idoc's! I never liked those hunts...1 time was enough.

I am not thrilled when I go in a huge cave/passage in malas and get 90% iron ore and barely find anything above gold. Unless I use a tool and or a gar pick... Even the big gems are slow to get..

I am super tired of ask for 1 small boon and have to give up 10x that in things you have or do in return... This has been the UO motto after the first creator dev  was kicked off.  For once id love to just get a small adjustment in the higher end ore to stick around longer.. if I find a verite or val spot  and only get 10 pieces and loose 1/2 of it due to my 105* miner not making it. This would peve off the Pope too.... and he don't play UO.

Lady_Storm said:

Who wants to kill being able to recall into my mining caves and doing my usual 60 minute mining ??   Back off jr.  Stop trying to ruin the last fun thing I got to do!!!

I happen to like mining.. chopping wood is for getting my mind off what's going on around me, fishing is my go to if I want a little surprise pop up...

Look..   the pirate ships are fine.. yes I think that is where more of the 60k deeds are from that are showing up.   Ore elemental's are fine, I do wish for a way to get the Taint and the rest of those regs outside of idoc's! I never liked those hunts...1 time was enough.

I am not thrilled when I go in a huge cave/passage in malas and get 90% iron ore and barely find anything above gold. Unless I use a tool and or a gar pick... Even the big gems are slow to get..

I am super tired of ask for 1 small boon and have to give up 10x that in things you have or do in return... This has been the UO motto after the first creator dev  was kicked off.  For once id love to just get a small adjustment in the higher end ore to stick around longer.. if I find a verite or val spot  and only get 10 pieces and loose 1/2 of it due to my 105* miner not making it. This would peve off the Pope too.... and he don't play UO.

 ❤️ 

Deraj has some excellent thoughts. Reading his last list of suggestions I caught myself thinking wow if only mining really was like this I’d be mining this evening. My problem with it right now is that while it was ok in 2003, it’s insanely boring and time consuming and involves too many unnecessary moves right now. Streamline the process, make it as painless as possible and that might change something. Also I agree that some folks do not grasp that a bot doesn’t care about the amount of clicks, drags and so on, but a real player like me does. I played on a lot of unofficial servers including ones where AFK resource gathering is allowed. I had my miner bot working for me all night every night and I know that making mining easier for real players changes NOTHING to someone doing that. It’s plus or minus a couple of lines of code. It doesn’t help scripted all, they don’t care. But it’s an entirely different deal for real miners. Please devs at least consider what Deraj is writing about, this is some of the best stuff I ever read on this topic.

Lady_Storm said:

Who wants to kill being able to recall into my mining caves and doing my usual 60 minute mining ??   Back off jr.  Stop trying to ruin the last fun thing I got to do!!!

Respectfully, Lady Storm, this isn't just about you. I have a fire beetle. I have runebooks with mining spots. I have abused the gold elementals in Blackthorn's Dungeon and I have benefited a great deal from all of these things. Now I am advocating that they be nerfed. If the True and Honest™ players are actually being honest with themselves, then they should be able to see past their own personal self-interest and realize that sometimes a playstyle, while perfectly legitimate, can still exist contrary to other playstyles or even to the integrity of the gameplay itself. I do not see anyone here shedding tears for the playstyles of old upon whose bones our own playstyles now stand. Since no playstyle is therefore sacred, instead let us look to the gameplay itself and ask: is it fair? Is it challenging? Is it rewarding? Does it contribute to a multiplayer/community dynamic? My answer to all of these questions is "no".

Butcher said:

Deraj has some excellent thoughts. Reading his last list of suggestions I caught myself thinking wow if only mining really was like this I’d be mining this evening. My problem with it right now is that while it was ok in 2003, it’s insanely boring and time consuming and involves too many unnecessary moves right now. Streamline the process, make it as painless as possible and that might change something. Also I agree that some folks do not grasp that a bot doesn’t care about the amount of clicks, drags and so on, but a real player like me does. I played on a lot of unofficial servers including ones where AFK resource gathering is allowed. I had my miner bot working for me all night every night and I know that making mining easier for real players changes NOTHING to someone doing that. It’s plus or minus a couple of lines of code. It doesn’t help scripted all, they don’t care. But it’s an entirely different deal for real miners. Please devs at least consider what Deraj is writing about, this is some of the best stuff I ever read on this topic.

I feel similar about mining back in ye old day. In 2000 I was trying to mine out of the Minoc Mines, sometimes without a pack horse. The risk of losing ore from dragging it to the forge was prevalent because of how many players were running around. It was fun in its own way, though it's not the exact situation I would want to see come back. Aside from a few easy buttons tossed our way over the years, the fundamentals of mining have never been looked at or optimized. This is why I have a hard time seeing the fire beetle as a proper UX improvement and not as a game-breaker that nullifies the entire point of smelting altogether.

I think it's important to emphasize though that the main problem with scripting is that they oversaturate the market with resources. The more resources we have floating around without a stronger economic demand to consume those resources, the less valuable they are and the less viable/meaningful mining is as a playstyle altogether. My point with a lot of the suggestions I put forward is that, we can decrease the efficiency of scripting, and at the same time streamlining the manual mining process. Instead, mining has become more efficient in all the wrong ways.

Your focused on scripting...  While I go mining the old fashioned way.. packies and fire bug in tow.

While you think your ideas will curb the scripters it will not...even back in the days before all the new fangled equipment and all  scripters were in full swing.  They stood there mined another player/character came in (usually a red) picked up their load and off they went. 

It wont work.   They will figure a way to exploit it and we honest mining people will be hurt because your aimed to get them when it would be way better to make the market for it poof...

Think about it.   When it is hard to get the price goes up and more desireable to the scripters to get. But if it was all too easy to get and the price hit the floor the value for them would be worthless and they would go to a more lucrative venue

Your focused on scripting...  While I go mining the old fashioned way.. packies and fire bug in tow.

The attention I give to scripting in this topic is focused on what scripting reveals to us about mining. There is no dark magic in scripting. All scripting does is take the actions players must perform to accomplish a task and do it 10x more efficiently. The real benefit of scripting is that it is showing us, screaming at us in fact, the problems inherent in the design. Yet these are ignored and scripting treated as the root problem, nothing gets solved and everything gradually gets worse.

While you think your ideas will curb the scripters it will not...even back in the days before all the new fangled equipment and all  scripters were in full swing.  They stood there mined another player/character came in (usually a red) picked up their load and off they went.

You say that, though you either cannot or will not respond directly to my points. Scripters can adapt, yes we are agreed on this. I have also said that in my ideal scenario it would still be possible to script. However the efficiency of scripting would be severely limited by my proposals and no one can honestly deny this. If a pile of ore has to be walked to a forge and cannot be recalled, it will absolutely harm the efficiency of scripting. Still possible to script, again yes, but bots excel at repetitive tasks, not tasks that require more complex decision making. So my proposals get rid of the little repetitive stuff and add challenges that humans are better equipped to solve.

It wont work.   They will figure a way to exploit it and we honest mining people will be hurt because your aimed to get them when it would be way better to make the market for it poof...

Think about it.   When it is hard to get the price goes up and more desireable to the scripters to get. But if it was all too easy to get and the price hit the floor the value for them would be worthless and they would go to a more lucrative venue

It genuinely kills me to see you say this. Do you really not see that what you are saying here completely undermines your entire argument?

Answer me this, because no one else has been bold enough to answer. Why are you concerned with scripting at all? Why does it bother you? How are the scripters harming you? How are they obstructing you from mining? They're not bothering you, right? So what's your beef with them?

Does anyone remember what the problem with script mining is at all? Or have we hated it for so long we don't remember why we hate it anymore? Script mining over saturates the market with ores, it lowers the values of the ores, it makes the mining playstyle less viable for your True and Honest™ players. So if you are going to propose that the value of ores be annihilated, you are directly attacking the viability of mining for the True and Honest™ players. But worse than that, you seem not to see that if that were to happen, the scripters would indeed come back if ores ever did gain value again. If you don't care about ore values then why do you care about scripting?

My suggestions increase the challenge to players in a way that decreases the efficiency of scripting, while increasing the efficiency of certain parts of the mining process that scripters already power through anyway. Your suggestion is to kill mining so the scripters go away. What you are saying is extremely unreasonable.

Deraj said:
Answer me this, because no one else has been bold enough to answer. Why are you concerned with scripting at all? Why does it bother you? How are the scripters harming you? How are they obstructing you from mining? They're not bothering you, right? So what's your beef with them?.

Because they are cheating plain and simple and EA doesn't give a damn so we live with it.  You CAN NOT stop a scripter, FACT, they are way smarter than you, another FACT.  The only player you are hurting is the honest player with you ideas, FACT.  I that BOLD enough for you.

Lady_Storm said:

Your focused on scripting...  While I go mining the old fashioned way.. packies and fire bug in tow.

While you think your ideas will curb the scripters it will not...even back in the days before all the new fangled equipment and all  scripters were in full swing.  They stood there mined another player/character came in (usually a red) picked up their load and off they went. 

It wont work.   They will figure a way to exploit it and we honest mining people will be hurt because your aimed to get them when it would be way better to make the market for it poof...

Think about it.   When it is hard to get the price goes up and more desireable to the scripters to get. But if it was all too easy to get and the price hit the floor the value for them would be worthless and they would go to a more lucrative venue

You dear LADY are 1000% correct, keep up the good fight and GOD forbid the DEVs do anything with this SCRIPTERS DREAM of a fix, make me wounder why it is being pushed so hard.

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:
Answer me this, because no one else has been bold enough to answer. Why are you concerned with scripting at all? Why does it bother you? How are the scripters harming you? How are they obstructing you from mining? They're not bothering you, right? So what's your beef with them?.

Because they are cheating plain and simple and EA doesn't give a damn so we live with it.  You CAN NOT stop a scripter, FACT, they are way smarter than you, another FACT.  The only player you are hurting is the honest player with you ideas, FACT.  I that BOLD enough for you.

If your only resort is "cuz its against the rules" then you have no argument. This is a discussion about game design, not the legality of scripting. You are not participating in good faith by making false/baseless assumptions about me and refusing to respond to my points.

Once again, I have never claimed that scripting wouldn't be possible with my suggestions, and have even noted it. I am talking about reducing the efficiency of scripting by changing the gameplay, which is definitely possible, and my suggestions go a long way towards leveling the playing field.

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:
Answer me this, because no one else has been bold enough to answer. Why are you concerned with scripting at all? Why does it bother you? How are the scripters harming you? How are they obstructing you from mining? They're not bothering you, right? So what's your beef with them?.

Because they are cheating plain and simple and EA doesn't give a damn so we live with it.  You CAN NOT stop a scripter, FACT, they are way smarter than you, another FACT.  The only player you are hurting is the honest player with you ideas, FACT.  I that BOLD enough for you.

If your only resort is "cuz its against the rules" then you have no argument. This is a discussion about game design, not the legality of scripting. You are not participating in good faith by making false/baseless assumptions about me and refusing to respond to my points.

Once again, I have never claimed that scripting wouldn't be possible with my suggestions, and have even noted it. I am talking about reducing the efficiency of scripting by changing the gameplay, which is definitely possible, and my suggestions go a long way towards leveling the playing field.

What games have you designed that makes you think you have a fix for uO?  I have been here for 20 years and have seen some very long scripts where a scripter recalled in a walked a cave dropping all iron and when full recalled out.  I watched him do it ever half hour for a week and you think you can stop that?  You want to make it even easier with your auto mine and auto fill packie, WOW  There is a point about the game design that you are clueless about, is that no matter what you do a scripter will ALWAYS be more efficient than the honest player so by making it in your words harder for a scripter than you make it 10 times harder for the honest player.  Are you trying to drive up the prices of resources and the next question would be why are you so intent on doing it, do you have a reason.  This address you whole point, you are making it easier to bring back even more scripter by driving up prices with your "FIX".  Do you even know how to make a legal macro in CC or EC

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:
Answer me this, because no one else has been bold enough to answer. Why are you concerned with scripting at all? Why does it bother you? How are the scripters harming you? How are they obstructing you from mining? They're not bothering you, right? So what's your beef with them?.

Because they are cheating plain and simple and EA doesn't give a damn so we live with it.  You CAN NOT stop a scripter, FACT, they are way smarter than you, another FACT.  The only player you are hurting is the honest player with you ideas, FACT.  I that BOLD enough for you.

If your only resort is "cuz its against the rules" then you have no argument. This is a discussion about game design, not the legality of scripting. You are not participating in good faith by making false/baseless assumptions about me and refusing to respond to my points.

Once again, I have never claimed that scripting wouldn't be possible with my suggestions, and have even noted it. I am talking about reducing the efficiency of scripting by changing the gameplay, which is definitely possible, and my suggestions go a long way towards leveling the playing field.

What games have you designed that makes you think you have a fix for uO?  I have been here for 20 years and have seen some very long scripts where a scripter recalled in a walked a cave dropping all iron and when full recalled out.  I watched him do it ever half hour for a week and you think you can stop that?  You want to make it even easier with your auto mine and auto fill packie, WOW  There is a point about the game design that you are clueless about, is that no matter what you do a scripter will ALWAYS be more efficient than the honest player so by making it in your words harder for a scripter than you make it 10 times harder for the honest player.  Are you trying to drive up the prices of resources and the next question would be why are you so intent on doing it, do you have a reason.  This address you whole point, you are making it easier to bring back even more scripter by driving up prices with your "FIX".  Do you even know how to make a legal macro in CC or EC

Again... You really do need to quit with your narrow viewpoint and learn to read and actually comprehend what other people are saying.

Deraj has never once claimed that his ideas would stop scripters. And frankly, his ideas aren't making things easier for them, they're already bypassing all the clicking anyways. Making it less painful for those of us actually sitting at the computer isn't helping them. They're not there, and they don't care. It's a few lines of script for them.

And frankly, I find it rather inappropritate that you're taking a simple discussion and twisting it into some type of subtle accusation that he's a scripter and uses illegal macros, which is not the case at all.

Faeryl said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:
Answer me this, because no one else has been bold enough to answer. Why are you concerned with scripting at all? Why does it bother you? How are the scripters harming you? How are they obstructing you from mining? They're not bothering you, right? So what's your beef with them?.

Because they are cheating plain and simple and EA doesn't give a damn so we live with it.  You CAN NOT stop a scripter, FACT, they are way smarter than you, another FACT.  The only player you are hurting is the honest player with you ideas, FACT.  I that BOLD enough for you.

If your only resort is "cuz its against the rules" then you have no argument. This is a discussion about game design, not the legality of scripting. You are not participating in good faith by making false/baseless assumptions about me and refusing to respond to my points.

Once again, I have never claimed that scripting wouldn't be possible with my suggestions, and have even noted it. I am talking about reducing the efficiency of scripting by changing the gameplay, which is definitely possible, and my suggestions go a long way towards leveling the playing field.

What games have you designed that makes you think you have a fix for uO?  I have been here for 20 years and have seen some very long scripts where a scripter recalled in a walked a cave dropping all iron and when full recalled out.  I watched him do it ever half hour for a week and you think you can stop that?  You want to make it even easier with your auto mine and auto fill packie, WOW  There is a point about the game design that you are clueless about, is that no matter what you do a scripter will ALWAYS be more efficient than the honest player so by making it in your words harder for a scripter than you make it 10 times harder for the honest player.  Are you trying to drive up the prices of resources and the next question would be why are you so intent on doing it, do you have a reason.  This address you whole point, you are making it easier to bring back even more scripter by driving up prices with your "FIX".  Do you even know how to make a legal macro in CC or EC

Again... You really do need to quit with your narrow viewpoint and learn to read and actually comprehend what other people are saying.

Deraj has never once claimed that his ideas would stop scripters. And frankly, his ideas aren't making things easier for them, they're already bypassing all the clicking anyways. Making it less painful for those of us actually sitting at the computer isn't helping them. They're not there, and they don't care. It's a few lines of script for them.

And frankly, I find it rather inappropritate that you're taking a simple discussion and twisting it into some type of subtle accusation that he's a scripter and uses illegal macros, which is not the case at all.

His whole idea is to make it harder for scripters.  How many times has UO tried this and totally failed, scripter always found a way around anything UO did and all they did was hurt the honest player.  Now we have someone that "CLAIMS" he has a fix
AUTO MINE helps both
AUTO FILL PACKIE helps both, scripters will now use packies
doing away with fire beetle hurts honest player, scriptors do not use
doing away with recall hurts honest player, scripters will just rewrite their scripts

He thinks that mining requires a lot of key strokes where in fact with the cc and a small macro requires very few strokes and I am told that the EC can basically do his AUTOMINE function so please tell me he know anything about mining.  Does he know what a recall script is which most scripters use and yes miners recall to their fav mining spots too.  Does he know what a rail is.  there are some really complex scripts out there and he will do nothing to stop them all he will do is hurt the honest player and make it easier for the scripter to make more money.  He says that people will not address his points and there have been many address his points, he just doesn't want to hear it.  But yet he will not answer basic questions when it comes to resource gathering or even how to do the basic things but yet he say he knows how to "FIX" UO.

There are only 2 ways to fix this problem
#1 ban all scripters/multiboxers and we all know that will never happen, EA depends to much on their money.
#2 Allow all players to use scripts and make the playing field equal and again we all know that will not happen, see #1.

And we could also throw in the SHUT DOWN RMT SITES and we all know that will never ha[ppen for the same reason as stated above.

If knowing how things really work is considered being narrow minded then I guess I am narrow minded.

What games have you designed that makes you think you have a fix for uO?

I haven't designed any. And I don't need to in order to participate in a discussion about game design among other players.

I have been here for 20 years and have seen some very long scripts where a scripter recalled in a walked a cave dropping all iron and when full recalled out.  I watched him do it ever half hour for a week and you think you can stop that?

Congratulations on your 20 year run. To answer your question, I can stop him from recall-mining with my suggestions, which I bolded in your quote. I cannot stop him from programming a route, which the scripter you observed would have to do if he wished to continue scripting. This brings up many possible risks such as running into monsters. His pack horse is exposed. The complexity of the decision making logic he has to include in his script increases considerably as now he has to deal with such issues as how to get back to the forge when the packhorse is full at any given point in his route. His overall yield is undeniably diminished from having to walk rather than recall and if fire beetle smelting is removed from the equation, the yield is diminished even more. To reiterate, bots excel when it comes to repetitive tasks. But walking around a mountain, filling up a packhorse, and walking back to a forge is not as simple as recalling around with a fire beetle. Is it impossible to script? Doubtful. But the situation I described is far more complex from a decision-making angle than our present situation.

You want to make it even easier with your auto mine and auto fill packie, WOW  There is a point about the game design that you are clueless about, is that no matter what you do a scripter will ALWAYS be more efficient than the honest player so by making it in your words harder for a scripter than you make it 10 times harder for the honest player.

You seem to be having a lot of trouble with this concept. Auto-mine and auto-fill are less clicks for the player. This is undeniable. You're telling me now that it's easier for the scripter. Yes, it is 2-3 less lines of code in their script, I acknowledged this in an earlier post. Except, there is barely any impact on yield. Both the scripter and the True and Honest™ player are benefiting from this, except this wouldn't change the scripter's reality of having to now transport that ore back to the forge. Streamlining this part of the process will not have a significant impact on yield for either of them. The difference is now the the player's life is a little easier, and the scripter continues to be indifferent because they never cared about the number of repetitive clicks their bot had to do while they slept anyways.

Are you trying to drive up the prices of resources and the next question would be why are you so intent on doing it, do you have a reason.

Absolutely I am. But at the same time, I also want there to be more demand for sources. I want players to be able to jump on their miner, pound some rocks and hack at some trees and make a tidy profit for their time. The scripters will still be off doing their thing, but their yields won't be the same. They will not be able to over-saturate the market with resources and as a result there will be a greater demand and greater rewards for the True and Honest™. I want trade, a better economic ecosystem, scarcity of resources, and player interaction. What I don't want is all of us living in our little single player bubble worlds filling up our houses with piles of 60k ingots so we can literally throw them in the garbage for clean up points. This is a sign that things are messed up.

This address you whole point, you are making it easier to bring back even more scripter by driving up prices with your "FIX".

Not really, this is more like dismissing all of my finer points and pretending that it's addressing my "whole" point, which doesn't make sense because you are unable to dismantle anything I've said. This isn't just about prices, this is about trade and economy. Restoring the value of ore is a part of that. If you cannot give me a reason why scripters are detrimental to the gameplay, you have no place in this conversation.

Do you even know how to make a legal macro in CC or EC

I could offer a snarky reply to your snarky question, but in all seriousness, yes. I am very familiar with macros. I play the CC with no real interest in the EC. Auto-mine, no matter how you want to spin it, is a superior and no-brainer way to improve the UX over "holding my finger on a key" as you suggested. Scripters are already auto-mining, so what's your beef.

Deraj said:

What games have you designed that makes you think you have a fix for uO?

I haven't designed any. And I don't need to in order to participate in a discussion about game design among other players.

I have been here for 20 years and have seen some very long scripts where a scripter recalled in a walked a cave dropping all iron and when full recalled out.  I watched him do it ever half hour for a week and you think you can stop that?

Congratulations on your 20 year run. To answer your question, I can stop him from recall-mining with my suggestions, which I bolded in your quote. I cannot stop him from programming a route, which the scripter you observed would have to do if he wished to continue scripting. This brings up many possible risks such as running into monsters. His pack horse is exposed. The complexity of the decision making logic he has to include in his script increases considerably as now he has to deal with such issues as how to get back to the forge when the packhorse is full at any given point in his route. His overall yield is undeniably diminished from having to walk rather than recall and if fire beetle smelting is removed from the equation, the yield is diminished even more. To reiterate, bots excel when it comes to repetitive tasks. But walking around a mountain, filling up a packhorse, and walking back to a forge is not as simple as recalling around with a fire beetle. Is it impossible to script? Doubtful. But the situation I described is far more complex from a decision-making angle than our present situation.

You want to make it even easier with your auto mine and auto fill packie, WOW  There is a point about the game design that you are clueless about, is that no matter what you do a scripter will ALWAYS be more efficient than the honest player so by making it in your words harder for a scripter than you make it 10 times harder for the honest player.

You seem to be having a lot of trouble with this concept. Auto-mine and auto-fill are less clicks for the player. This is undeniable. You're telling me now that it's easier for the scripter. Yes, it is 2-3 less lines of code in their script, I acknowledged this in an earlier post. Except, there is barely any impact on yield. Both the scripter and the True and Honest™ player are benefiting from this, except this wouldn't change the scripter's reality of having to now transport that ore back to the forge. Streamlining this part of the process will not have a significant impact on yield for either of them. The difference is now the the player's life is a little easier, and the scripter continues to be indifferent because they never cared about the number of repetitive clicks their bot had to do while they slept anyways.

Are you trying to drive up the prices of resources and the next question would be why are you so intent on doing it, do you have a reason.

Absolutely I am. But at the same time, I also want there to be more demand for sources. I want players to be able to jump on their miner, pound some rocks and hack at some trees and make a tidy profit for their time. The scripters will still be off doing their thing, but their yields won't be the same. They will not be able to over-saturate the market with resources and as a result there will be a greater demand and greater rewards for the True and Honest™. I want trade, a better economic ecosystem, scarcity of resources, and player interaction. What I don't want is all of us living in our little single player bubble worlds filling up our houses with piles of 60k ingots so we can literally throw them in the garbage for clean up points. This is a sign that things are messed up.

This address you whole point, you are making it easier to bring back even more scripter by driving up prices with your "FIX".

Not really, this is more like dismissing all of my finer points and pretending that it's addressing my "whole" point, which doesn't make sense because you are unable to dismantle anything I've said. This isn't just about prices, this is about trade and economy. Restoring the value of ore is a part of that. If you cannot give me a reason why scripters are detrimental to the gameplay, you have no place in this conversation.

Do you even know how to make a legal macro in CC or EC

I could offer a snarky reply to your snarky question, but in all seriousness, yes. I am very familiar with macros. I play the CC with no real interest in the EC. Auto-mine, no matter how you want to spin it, is a superior and no-brainer way to improve the UX over "holding my finger on a key" as you suggested. Scripters are already auto-mining, so what's your beef.

You win.  This and EJ should just about do in UO.  Please DEVs do everything this player wants and make it even harder for the HONEST PLAYER to play your game and more profitable for the scripters to even make more script accounts to get more profit and watch even more UO players leave because of the unstopped cheaters.

Can you answer this question for me:

How is script mining harmful to UO's gameplay and your experience?

Deraj said:

Can you answer this question for me:

How is script mining harmful to UO's gameplay and your experience?

I already gave you an answer and you just dismissed it, so to me that says you approve of cheating and that breaking the rules is ok.  Good for you that tells me all I need to know about you.

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

Can you answer this question for me:

How is script mining harmful to UO's gameplay and your experience?

I already gave you an answer and you just dismissed it, so to me that says you approve of cheating and that breaking the rules is ok.  Good for you that tells me all I need to know about you.

You are dodging the question. I am not denying that scripting is against the rules, and I acknowledge that it is. I am asking you to explain to me why it's bad for UO's gameplay and how it is ruining your playstyle.

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

Can you answer this question for me:

How is script mining harmful to UO's gameplay and your experience?

I already gave you an answer and you just dismissed it, so to me that says you approve of cheating and that breaking the rules is ok.  Good for you that tells me all I need to know about you.

You are dodging the question. I am not denying that scripting is against the rules, and I acknowledge that it is. I am asking you to explain to me why it's bad for UO's gameplay and how it is ruining your playstyle.

OMG I am not dodging a thing I already told you I am against cheating and anything that helps cheaters, do you UNDERSTAND and you dismissed it.  IMHO YOU APPROVE OF CHEATING
Maybe you should go back and reread.  WOULD you please use your brain do you really not know why cheating is bad in a game are you serious?  How old are you?  Seriously, how old are you that you would even ask that.

Bilbo I think you fail to understand that Deraj’s suggestions don’t really make life difficult for real players. I’m 100% on board with what he is saying and I feel that if mining was improved like that I would actually enjoy the process. For me all the supply and demand stuff makes sense but I can think of a million better ways to farm gold. It’s the journey that I want to be fun and comfortable as it should be 20 years later after the game was released. And I also think his suggestions would actually hurt bots a lot. I remember how risky it was to incorporate any walking into a script because the chance for something to go wrong goes through the roof. A lag, a monster, a wandering healer, another player happening to be standing on a tile on your way and your entire script could be derailed. Because every step of the route is preprogrammed and your bot is not equipped with the ability to walk around something and get back on track. That’s how it used to be a few years ago. I doubt that much has changed since then.

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

Can you answer this question for me:

How is script mining harmful to UO's gameplay and your experience?

I already gave you an answer and you just dismissed it, so to me that says you approve of cheating and that breaking the rules is ok.  Good for you that tells me all I need to know about you.

You are dodging the question. I am not denying that scripting is against the rules, and I acknowledge that it is. I am asking you to explain to me why it's bad for UO's gameplay and how it is ruining your playstyle.

OMG I am not dodging a thing I already told you I am against cheating and anything that helps cheaters, do you UNDERSTAND and you dismissed it.  IMHO YOU APPROVE OF CHEATING
Maybe you should go back and reread.  WOULD you please use your brain do you really not know why cheating is bad in a game are you serious?  How old are you?  Seriously, how old are you that you would even ask that.

Bilbo, I have already explained why I think scripting mining is bad for UO, and I'll even say it again: it oversaturates the market with resources, lowers their value and makes mining as a profession less viable for everyone. Now I am asking you to explain why you think it's bad, so let's make this super easy. Fill in the blank:

"Cheating is detrimental to UO because ______________"

Being required to use pack animals and walk sloooowly over long distances to get to and from mining would bore the heck out of me and make mining unfun. I am fine for it being an option for other people if they d find it fun, but I also tried the pack animal thing in my early days of mining and I really disliked it. I ended up stabling my two pack horses and getting a riding horse and galloping between my mining spot and forge. Having to walk at such an excruciating slow pace is so... excruciating.

Butcher said:

Bilbo I think you fail to understand that Deraj’s suggestions don’t really make life difficult for real players. I’m 100% on board with what he is saying and I feel that if mining was improved like that I would actually enjoy the process. For me all the supply and demand stuff makes sense but I can think of a million better ways to farm gold. It’s the journey that I want to be fun and comfortable as it should be 20 years later after the game was released. And I also think his suggestions would actually hurt bots a lot. I remember how risky it was to incorporate any walking into a script because the chance for something to go wrong goes through the roof. A lag, a monster, a wandering healer, another player happening to be standing on a tile on your way and your entire script could be derailed. Because every step of the route is preprogrammed and your bot is not equipped with the ability to walk around something and get back on track. That’s how it used to be a few years ago. I doubt that much has changed since then.

So walking all the way across UO will be so much fun then please by all means walk all you want and I am so glad that you all have all the time in the world to play UO.  Lets just do away with recall/gate travel all together and make everybody walk, won't that be fun.  Here is a thought why not have UO enforce the rules and stop punishing the honest players with all these "FIXES"  By all means lets just make it more tedious for the honest player to go anywhere, now that will sure make people happy.

AQHF said:

Being required to use pack animals and walk sloooowly over long distances to get to and from mining would bore the heck out of me and make mining unfun. I am fine for it being an option for other people if they d find it fun, but I also tried the pack animal thing in my early days of mining and I really disliked it. I ended up stabling my two pack horses and getting a riding horse and galloping between my mining spot and forge. Having to walk at such an excruciating slow pace is so... excruciating.

AMEN  BUT BUT BUT this really helps the "HONEST" player LOL

AQHF said:

Being required to use pack animals and walk sloooowly over long distances to get to and from mining would bore the heck out of me and make mining unfun. I am fine for it being an option for other people if they d find it fun, but I also tried the pack animal thing in my early days of mining and I really disliked it. I ended up stabling my two pack horses and getting a riding horse and galloping between my mining spot and forge. Having to walk at such an excruciating slow pace is so... excruciating.

Believe me when I say your response is like a breath of fresh air. Okay, so having to walk back and forth, back and forth, can become tedious. This is an excellent point. Since we are entertaining hypotheticals however, let's ask ourselves, how can that be streamlined or improved upon? There have been a few interesting ideas. One user mentioned being able to build a temporary forge that lasts for x amount of time or y amount of uses. Kyronix hypothesized something about mining and lumber camps (although I don't know exactly what he had in mind, it sounds like his idea involves setting up areas near mountains for easier access to forges). For my own part I suggested possibly retaining fire beetle's ability to smelt, but on a more limited basis, with a cost for their convenience.

Here is another idea. Recalled ores yield less ingots. Or look at ways to improve pack horses so they can keep pace with miners and run with them depending on how much load they are bearing. Consider the blue beetle for a moment. It can hold items, but if it gets close to its weight limit, it won't be able to run when you are riding it - this is an example of this principle already existing in the game. My question to you, AQHF, is if the devs did decide to ruin UO by implementing my wretched ideas, what would be your suggestions on how to make walking to forges less tedious?

(and on a slightly different note, let me acknowledge that my using the word "walk" a lot when referencing "walk to the forge" is probably not the best word for this. For my own part, going back between the mountain the forge in past days involved a lot of running with my pack horses, so I don't mean to imply that the miners should have to literally walk and am sorry if that has caused any confusion)

Why not mine not too far from forges? For example there’s that cave near Minoc that we all know about. It’s a matter of one monitor distance.

Butcher said:

Why not mine not too far from forges? For example there’s that cave near Minoc that we all know about. It’s a matter of one monitor distance.

First I would have to walk to Minoc and then over to the cave, oh wait I have to wait my turn to mine that cave because everybody else is there waiting their turn.

Deraj said:

AQHF said:

Being required to use pack animals and walk sloooowly over long distances to get to and from mining would bore the heck out of me and make mining unfun. I am fine for it being an option for other people if they d find it fun, but I also tried the pack animal thing in my early days of mining and I really disliked it. I ended up stabling my two pack horses and getting a riding horse and galloping between my mining spot and forge. Having to walk at such an excruciating slow pace is so... excruciating.

Believe me when I say your response is like a breath of fresh air. Okay, so having to walk back and forth, back and forth, can become tedious. This is an excellent point. Since we are entertaining hypotheticals however, let's ask ourselves, how can that be streamlined or improved upon? There have been a few interesting ideas. One user mentioned being able to build a temporary forge that lasts for x amount of time or y amount of uses. Kyronix hypothesized something about mining and lumber camps (although I don't know exactly what he had in mind, it sounds like his idea involves setting up areas near mountains for easier access to forges). For my own part I suggested possibly retaining fire beetle's ability to smelt, but on a more limited basis, with a cost for their convenience.

Here is another idea. Recalled ores yield less ingots. Or look at ways to improve pack horses so they can keep pace with miners and run with them depending on how much load they are bearing. Consider the blue beetle for a moment. It can hold items, but if it gets close to its weight limit, it won't be able to run when you are riding it - this is an example of this principle already existing in the game. My question to you, AQHF, is if the devs did decide to ruin UO by implementing my wretched ideas, what would be your suggestions on how to make walking to forges less tedious?

(and on a slightly different note, let me acknowledge that my using the word "walk" a lot when referencing "walk to the forge" is probably not the best word for this. For my own part, going back between the mountain the forge in past days involved a lot of running with my pack horses, so I don't mean to imply that the miners should have to literally walk and am sorry if that has caused any confusion)

So the casual player takes time out of their limited time to walk to their fav cave or recalls for less ingots.  Most UO players have a limited amount of time to play UO per week and they do other things besides gathering resources and you want to either give them less time or if recall used give them less ingots.  You do understand that a mining bot mines 23 hrs a day 7 days a week and yes they may get less ingots over the entire week but the casual player also gets less ingots at the same % so who do you think you are really hurting.  The script miner could care less because his market value is going up and the casual player has less time to play other stuff in UO making his UO experience just that more enjoyable.  BOTs do not care about time where honest players do.  Lets punish the "HONEST" player even more.  Keep going with all these great ideas.

So the casual player takes time out of their limited time to walk to their fav cave or recalls for less ingots.  Most UO players have a limited amount of time to play UO per week and they do other things besides gathering resources and you want to either give them less time or if recall used give them less ingots.

I am all too aware of the limits of playtime many players have, but you are overestimating the amount of time involved in this. Depending on where you are, the time could vary. If you are mining at the Minoc mines, your time is shorter. The result is that you might see more people walking around competing for ore. If you want to find some better spots you might walk to Crescent Mountain - a little farther away, but more and better ore is the reward for the inconvenience. If we take into account other possible ideas for how to provide ways to handle the logistical problem of transporting ore, we can add actual dimension to the game where currently there is none. I will say what I said at the very start, that there is no single-solution bandaid that can be applied to solve the mining problem. It requires a comprehensive approach and in order to even begin thinking comprehensively we have to use our imagination to consider what an end result could look like.

You do understand that a mining bot mines 23 hrs a day 7 days a week and yes they may get less ingots over the entire week but the casual player also gets less ingots at the same % so who do you think you are really hurting.

You are incorrect here. Boil down my ideas and what you are left with is "trading inconveniences". I am suggesting that players and scripters alike take on the inconvenience of transporting their ore by foot, while at the same time giving both players and scripters the convenience of auto-mine and auto-fill. The transport-by-foot principle is a significantly larger hit against the efficiency of scripting than whatever small bonus auto-mine and auto-fill provides them. Players, on the other hand, can utterly destroy any bot in the logistical department, whereas they will have a lot more trouble competing when it comes to the small mundane stuff like clicking the rocks, moving the ore, combining ores, and recalling around.

Both players and scripters will experience lower yields in the grand scheme. Scripters, however, are hurt much more than players are by my ideas, and the lower yields helps increase the value of ores for players who are interested in adventure.

The script miner could care less because his market value is going up and the casual player has less time to play other stuff in UO making his UO experience just that more enjoyable.

Scripting is less efficient under my suggestions, yields drop, ore is more valuable for everyone. Greater value draws True and Honest™ players and scripters alike. Scripters will have more trouble dealing with the logistical problems of carrying ore than players. The players have the real advantage in this scenario.

BOTs do not care about time where honest players do.  Lets punish the "HONEST" player even more.  Keep going with all these great ideas.

Once again I pose the question that you are attempting to escape. Fill in the blank:

"Cheating is detrimental to UO because ______________"

I know what my answer is, and I've stated it multiple times. I want to know what your answer is.

LMAO You seriously believe this will "FIX" the scripters oh wait the honest players are also punished.  YEP YEP YEP this will sure take care of the pesky scripters who could care less because they are not sitting there playing a diluted version of UO.  where are the pom pom at.

Bilbo said:

Butcher said:

Why not mine not too far from forges? For example there’s that cave near Minoc that we all know about. It’s a matter of one monitor distance.

First I would have to walk to Minoc and then over to the cave, oh wait I have to wait my turn to mine that cave because everybody else is there waiting their turn.

Come on man, you know there are other places.  You’re making it seem a much larger problem than it really is. For example back in the day I used to mine mountain slopes at the gypsy camp near the entrance to central Ilshenar. Not only do you get your forge few tiles away there, there’s also even a bank wagon there. It’s not the end of the world for real players, but scripting walking anywhere is a nightmare.

The scripters already hoarded so much ore and wood, so best way to hurt them, is to give honest players an easy way to get the desired ore and wood. So just turn back on static ore and wood  spots. I am fine if they are different to the old ones, but I also think Heartwood, Bloodwood and Frostwood need a little bumb in percentage of their existence. Dont make it too complicated. Honest miners and lumberjacks want an easy solution and this would be the easiest.

Drowy said:

The scripters already hoarded so much ore and wood, so best way to hurt them, is to give honest players an easy way to get the desired ore and wood. So just turn back on static ore and wood  spots. I am fine if they are different to the old ones, but I also think Heartwood, Bloodwood and Frostwood need a little bumb in percentage of their existence. Dont make it too complicated. Honest miners and lumberjacks want an easy solution and this would be the easiest.

OMG Someone that uses their brain, THANK YOU.  No they would rather punish the honest player even more in the hopes that it will "FIX" UO and we all know how that has turned out every time UO has tried to "FIX" UO.

Drowy said:

The scripters already hoarded so much ore and wood, so best way to hurt them, is to give honest players an easy way to get the desired ore and wood. So just turn back on static ore and wood  spots. I am fine if they are different to the old ones, but I also think Heartwood, Bloodwood and Frostwood need a little bumb in percentage of their existence. Dont make it too complicated. Honest miners and lumberjacks want an easy solution and this would be the easiest.

  Sums it up very nicely 🙂 

After doing some LJ'ing and mining since returning to the game I can say LJ have it easy compared to miners (still).  

If I were to change anything it would be going back to semi-static locations and making mining give you 1 to 1 ore/ingots and lose 2-4 of the current ore styles you can mine.  There's no reason to have so many different styles of the same ore that gives you the same end result.

Scripters will always be a problem and especially since nothing is done to curb that issue since the only way they get caught is if a GM cant clue in to the script running. 

Drowy said:

The scripters already hoarded so much ore and wood, so best way to hurt them, is to give honest players an easy way to get the desired ore and wood. So just turn back on static ore and wood  spots. I am fine if they are different to the old ones, but I also think Heartwood, Bloodwood and Frostwood need a little bumb in percentage of their existence. Dont make it too complicated. Honest miners and lumberjacks want an easy solution and this would be the easiest.

Agreed.

Ok ok ... stop right there.

First I refuse to walk to mine any shard or facit much less trek the wilds of UO to get at ore. PERIOD!    I know its my character that does the moving but my old body in UO is like my own  I have earned the right to pop in and do my thing in peace. 

Idk about you, but I have rarely seen a scripter any more... You seen many resource vendors again???  Not me. 

Its hard as all hadies to get stuff as it is  your talking about making it harder on all of us for a handful of scripters.  All I want is ore to be more like the old days and stick to a spot  if I cant get that up all the ore duration in one location except iron that stays way too long in one place as it is. Meaning if a cave has 10 mining spots you can dig most times 7 of the 10 are iron... if you mine the other 3 you have a chance to get maybe 18 to 30 of a color ...mind you I say maybe.. I have gone to many colored spots and got 2 full ore of color and the rest iron.... PFFT...  Perhaps drop the iron from the color digging and up the areas of color to the full 30 count...  

But Stop the darn walking bit  My character is too old to walk all over UO

 

@Lady_Storm 🙂

 Truth is no one is Big Time Scripting resources anymore, hundreds of millions of every color wood and ore were extracted to build giant stock piles and if a RMT runs low they just dupe up a few hundred million more 🙂

no way, is static a better system but for them in large numbers to sit on it and gain.  as long as it moves  every 3rd dig,  as  it use to be, is the only way it should be.  same with wood, with a bump  of an extra harvest  or two in certain locations that has a theme. 

if you want to be ganked in fell just instate static ore locations, the fact this provokes 6 pages of responses  because you are all invested... thus no reason for any shortages of ingots, break  out the ol' pickaxe and get to digging.  scriptures are going to script and will get caught. if not atleast make it harder for them...scripters once set into motion cant think and plot...  but we can...

"scriptures are going to script and will get caught. "

  That is some Real Humor you got going on there 🙂   

Lol, dang missed that one ** scripters **

So, just a small little addition... To all those complaining about having to walk forever to a forge if they did anything about fire beetles or recalling or whatever... FYI one of the rewards from doing the Void Pool is a four hour temporary forge that doesn't require a house. So there's already a viable option. Not to mention it would possibly get people doing the Void Pool again.