sdi mage vs sampire damage balance

I don't think anyone will disagree that an SDI mage even at close to 200 SDI  just can't match a sampire in damage output .here are a few thoughts on fixing this.
right now WW attack does XXX damage to every monster it hits while chain lighting and other mutli target spells do XXX damage divided by targets i suggest instead mage spells do XXX damage to all targets
slayer talismans for mages, not more sdi but slayers that will stack with our spellbooks the way they do with warriors weapons 
i feel that these two simple changes will put more mages in event dungeons 

Don’t think a pure caster can solo para baldron or demon.  To do real damage you need them held in place fighting a pet or someone else so you can use the death ray.  These paras easily dispel ev and other summons that you cast.  Also, you run out of mana before you can kill one.  If anyone knows how to solo these with a mage that is not a tamer would really like to know how you do it.  Running away and then casting spells they run into is not practical with these they just have too many hit points.  Thanks.

Arnold7 said:

Don’t think a pure caster can solo para baldron or demon.  To do real damage you need them held in place fighting a pet or someone else so you can use the death ray.  These paras easily dispel ev and other summons that you cast.  Also, you run out of mana before you can kill one.  If anyone knows how to solo these with a mage that is not a tamer would really like to know how you do it.  Running away and then casting spells they run into is not practical with these they just have too many hit points.  Thanks.

It takes my pure caster a while to solo a para demon or balron. Too much time which is why I stopped playing the events with those mobs.  

Arnold7 said:

Don’t think a pure caster can solo para baldron or demon.  To do real damage you need them held in place fighting a pet or someone else so you can use the death ray.  These paras easily dispel ev and other summons that you cast.  Also, you run out of mana before you can kill one.  If anyone knows how to solo these with a mage that is not a tamer would really like to know how you do it.  Running away and then casting spells they run into is not practical with these they just have too many hit points.  Thanks.

This brings up three more adjustments 
1. No true cold spells for mages nothing at all for an area spell and mind blast is ridiculous slow. Add AOE and a decent direct damage cold spell 
2. No way for a mage to leech mana perhaps an adjustment to the mastery scaling off real skill level.
3 summons,  mage summons are just so 1998 weak and need a buff to be able to compete in today world 

Is this topic about sampire vs mages to perform area damage or solo Balron paragon?

@Seth it's not about a specific example but rather a general thing comparing mage damage output ability to sampires and imo about why we see so few  pure mages in these dungeons 

Mages need 2 skills. They have plenty of room for taming skills, meditation and one other 120 skill.

Sure let my mages do even more damage while I stand there and say all kill. 

Apparently the OP has not held a 30 demon book and cast energy bolt at a Balron.

Pawain said:

Mages need 2 skills. They have plenty of room for taming skills, meditation and one other 120 skill.

Sure let my mages do even more damage while I stand there and say all kill. 

Apparently the OP has not held a 30 demon book and cast energy bolt at a Balron.

Yup, Now I remember I actually tried that with my sdi mage and the damage is awesome

Our PVP friends will show up any moment to say that magery doesn't need any augmenting because mage spells hit every time while melee has a chance to miss repeatedly. And so I think any discussion around magery needs to be viewed from the perspective of "can this be done so as to not disrupt the current PVP meta."

It's no wonder they keep adding SDI items to the game as there is an SDI cap for PVP and thus these items aren't too disruptive.

And in this way I wish summons, field spells, and something with damage over time had more utility. I would think a "if player is in heat of battle yes/no" check could determine how effective these spells would be in PVM. 

By the way just to add:

Sdi mage using cold mystic spells can damage Hiryu more than 500 Hp per hit. Spellweaving wod can hit more than 1000 Hp per cast, with reaper form and arcane empowerment, level 6 spell bonus. 

Thunderstorm works great on the lower end stuff but I only get 17 to 30 points per hit on each target.  I think that is great for getting credit towards drops and use it when I can when I see a room filled with monsters.  I will kill everything except the high end paras.  But, don’t think you can solo a para with 3000 or more points that way even if you did not run out of mana and the para did not heal itself.  I think 17 to 30 points a hit is about average for thunderstorm.  If you can get more than that would like to know how you do it.  Thanks.

Oh, and have to agree the one spell that does cold damage is worthless.  It’s a low end spell so even if your target has no resistance to it, it still does not do as much damage as your higher end spells do to targets that have high resistances to fire or energy damage.

YyyArnold7 said:

Thunderstorm works great on the lower end stuff but I only get 17 to 30 points per hit on each target.  I think that is great for getting credit towards drops and use it when I can when I see a room filled with monsters.  I will kill everything except the high end paras.  But, don’t think you can solo a para with 3000 or more points that way even if you did not run out of mana and the para did not heal itself.  I think 17 to 30 points a hit is about average for thunderstorm.  If you can get more than that would like to know how you do it.  Thanks.

Thunderstorm worked very well on the first level of the other dynamic spawns. 
This time it just damages the first level.

But it is nice that all the mobs are demon so you can use other spells to kill them effectively. 

Arnold7 said:

Thunderstorm works great on the lower end stuff but I only get 17 to 30 points per hit on each target.  I think that is great for getting credit towards drops and use it when I can when I see a room filled with monsters.  I will kill everything except the high end paras.  But, don’t think you can solo a para with 3000 or more points that way even if you did not run out of mana and the para did not heal itself.  I think 17 to 30 points a hit is about average for thunderstorm.  If you can get more than that would like to know how you do it.  Thanks.

Why is there a need to solo para balron. I use sampire and getting drops on 3 shards without even solo a single one. I even avoid wisp and elder gazer para unless more than 1 of us.

How about power scrolls for inscription to 120 so that an inscription mastery could be introduced.

Many ideas out there am sure for inscription mastery bonuses.  Initial thoughts are:

Keep innate summons buff
Have mind blast damage also scale to inscription level 
Let mind blast work with slayer books
.........

As you can see i am at 175 SDi 130ish with my demon slayer i do indeed know how to use and am well versed in how to play a mage at no point did i say that my ability to use direct damage spells was not on par with sampires 

what i did suggest was i had no AOE spell that could do the same damage as WW chain lighting is 300 damage spread over 6 targets VS a WW attack that does 300 to each.
and while in @Pawain little world the monsters wait in line to attack so i can wack them one at a time i shockingly am often surrounded by enemies.

nothing i suggested is OP or takes away from another build 

i simply would like to see more than one or two types of builds used in these events 

I do not see WW attacks that do 300 damage to each target.  I have not tried mongbats tho...

Can you show your Melee toon using WW and doing 300 damage each to multiple targets please.

I am not sure about your shard but the 3 shards I went I saw 

• Tamers that I need to thank for their pets who help tank the paragon balron while I joined in. Mostly, mages are tamers while some use mystic sw mage.
• Bards
• Spellweavers, quite a lot in Atlantic depending on the time and level.
• Archers and throwers. The good ones get the shot before I can reach, well done.
• Healing paladins?
• Sampire, err…  not quite effective to solo paragon balron, thanks to life taint. Are we playing the same game?  😂

Pawain said:

I do not see WW attacks that do 300 damage to each target.  I have not tried mongbats tho...

Can you show your Melee toon using WW and doing 300 damage each to multiple targets please.

the actual numbers are irrelevant the point being that a fighter does XXX damage to each monster they hit while a mages damage is split between them is is unequable and should be fixed as is no slayer talisman for mages each point i have made is valid and fair.

Yes, chain lightning, meteor swarm, etc should not water down the damage based on the number of targets.  Some other area effect spells don't appear to water down damage based on number of affected targets (firefield, wildfire, etc).  One could argue that more targets should equate to bonus damage per target, not a damage reduction per target - maybe this should come with running the magery mastery. (certain spells do more damage with 2 targets, but then damage drops per target beyond 2 targets).

Sure make my 2 main guys more powerful.  I am ok with it.  I did the events I got the books, I'm ready to kill stuff.

Add 50% chance of insta kill for any spell that hits more than 4 targets while we are at it. 

Don't ask for small increases go for the gusto!

Pawain said:

Sure make my 2 main guys more powerful.  I am ok with it.  I did the events I got the books, I'm ready to kill stuff.

Add 50% chance of insta kill for any spell that hits more than 4 targets while we are at it. 

Don't ask for small increases go for the gusto!

That's the spirit balance for all now about the lack of damage reduction for gargoyles..

Gargoyles do not deserve nice stuff.

Seth said:

I also support ideas to make any template more useful, fun... and powerful at least for PVM. But when compare with another template, what if they don't level up but down instead.

Can I also ask for sampires to be more effective against EM bosses? Its always pets and pets. Sampires need to be balanced with same power as pets. 

Come to LS events.  Your pet is dead in seconds.  Tonight both I and my pet were dead for the whole boss encounter.  Boss kept pulling in my ghost so I could not res either.

Pawain said:

Seth said:

I also support ideas to make any template more useful, fun... and powerful at least for PVM. But when compare with another template, what if they don't level up but down instead.

Can I also ask for sampires to be more effective against EM bosses? Its always pets and pets. Sampires need to be balanced with same power as pets. 

Come to LS events.  Your pet is dead in seconds.  Tonight both I and my pet were dead for the whole boss encounter.  Boss kept pulling in my ghost so I could not res either.

Aye, trust if your tamer finds it hard, no one will find it easy. 

I agree that magery AoE and summon spells could use a rebalancing pass.  Blade spirits could have more the power of EVs as a 2 slot and EVs could be bumped to 4 and be slightly less powerful than the RC.  I would say a 10% damage reduction for all AoE targets, but damage output isn’t split.

“I’m not sure what the point in even discussing this is. They do not have time to even adjust a single piece of text on mannequins etc,
Newer/returning players are erroneously being told that SDI is capped at 15% in PvP.

what makes you think they have time to play with things that aren’t even broken?

Who do you think you are, a paying customer?”

Yoshi said:

Newer/returning players are erroneously being told that SDI is capped at 15% in PvP.

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/items/magic-item-properties/

McDougle said:

This brings up three more adjustments 
2. No way for a mage to leech mana perhaps an adjustment to the mastery scaling off real skill level.

Well, a necro-mage can leech mana, but the biggest downside compared to a sampire that a mage cannot heal while doing damage. You either heal or you attack. If you are up against a high level mob, all you do is heal.

McDougle said:

I don't think anyone will disagree that an SDI mage even at close to 200 SDI  just can't match a sampire in damage output .here are a few thoughts on fixing this.
right now WW attack does XXX damage to every monster it hits while chain lighting and other mutli target spells do XXX damage divided by targets i suggest instead mage spells do XXX damage to all targets
slayer talismans for mages, not more sdi but slayers that will stack with our spellbooks the way they do with warriors weapons 
i feel that these two simple changes will put more mages in event dungeons 

With the right debuffs Mages are much better dps than Sampires. For Solo play or without pets, they're not great. Pets with resist reducing debuffs boost your damage dramatically. The strongest combo I've seen for raw damage is Wrestle mastery / RC fire beetle + SDI Mage. 
I use my mage for soloing: Roof, Grizzle, Shimmering Effusion, Lady Mel, Stygian Dragon etc (big slow meat sacks, or bosses that do WAY too much damage [EFFUSION].
Sampires are a lot better at not dying in other situations, like Doom or any boss with ranged attacks, or bosses that just instakill pets [SLASHER]. (and this is of course, all single target damage... mages are single target dps in this game.)

Yoshi said:

“I’m not sure what the point in even discussing this is. They do not have time to even adjust a single piece of text on mannequins etc,
Newer/returning players are erroneously being told that SDI is capped at 15% in PvP.

what makes you think they have time to play with things that aren’t even broken?

Who do you think you are, a paying customer?”

Yup, the priority should be:

Alazi said:

McDougle said:

I don't think anyone will disagree that an SDI mage even at close to 200 SDI  just can't match a sampire in damage output .here are a few thoughts on fixing this.
right now WW attack does XXX damage to every monster it hits while chain lighting and other mutli target spells do XXX damage divided by targets i suggest instead mage spells do XXX damage to all targets
slayer talismans for mages, not more sdi but slayers that will stack with our spellbooks the way they do with warriors weapons 
i feel that these two simple changes will put more mages in event dungeons 

With the right debuffs Mages are much better dps than Sampires. For Solo play or without pets, they're not great. Pets with resist reducing debuffs boost your damage dramatically. The strongest combo I've seen for raw damage is Wrestle mastery / RC fire beetle + SDI Mage. 
I use my mage for soloing: Roof, Grizzle, Shimmering Effusion, Lady Mel, Stygian Dragon etc (big slow meat sacks, or bosses that do WAY too much damage [EFFUSION].
Sampires are a lot better at not dying in other situations, like Doom or any boss with ranged attacks, or bosses that just instakill pets [SLASHER]. (and this is of course, all single target damage... mages are single target dps in this game.)

IF a mage can sit back without be attacked seth argument might have merit but strangely enough the monsters attack me all the time ....and if i e-bolt them I'm dead aoe takes 3 cast I'm dead mages don't use only 3 skills we need resisting spells we need parry etc i don't understand why a suggestion the harms no one else's skill set and it not at all over powered is so disliked..

McDougle said:

IF a mage can sit back without be attacked seth argument might have merit but strangely enough the monsters attack me all the time ....and if i e-bolt them I'm dead aoe takes 3 cast I'm dead mages don't use only 3 skills we need resisting spells we need parry etc i don't understand why a suggestion the harms no one else's skill set and it not at all over powered is so disliked..

Did you not read about the earlier locked post where others complained warriors ran towards them with XXX paragons chasing after them. Yes, warriors cannot always tank now because of the paragons but they are helping to take the first hit. You can cast an area spell around him and get looting rights for all his mobs and then cast Invis and hide away. He is running for his life.

Pawain said:

*snip*

Please admit you did not even look at their page before you posted the above.  Or continue to look like a buffoon,  @ Mene_Drachenfels (that is slang for Idiot I just chose a nicer word.)

If you have a problem with Anon here, then leave me out of this thread, will you? Why are you attacking me now? I have nothing to say about this topic! It's really nice that you choose a nice word for me, that puts me on the track of Hester and Chuckles ...in America they call them tricksters ...You don't have to apologise either, I wouldn't accept them! 

To point out certain stupidities of the people the world needs exactly these fools again

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Off topic posts have been removed. Please do not hijack threads with 'pet peeves'.

I play a mage and do quite well when I work with other players but bottom line if there are not other players to work with only players that can solo top line paras can play in the dungeon.  Usually, when no one else is there I find several top line paras in entrance area, at least one in the middle of each hallway and at least one in every room in the dungeon.  No way I can play even when I am getting 130 to 150 points per hit.  They easily outcast me two spells to one.  That’s just the way it is.  As has been mentioned to survive, a mage needs to have something else going to play alone against the big stuff.  Just wanted to answer the question another player asked about why it was necessary to be able to solo a ballon.  By the way, a necro mage in wraith form using the death ray against para balron fighting a pet or other player can do an outstanding amount of damage.  Well worth having in a party.

Balron not ballon.  Sorry, think a ballon would not be that hard to solo but then you never know.

Arnold7 said:

 As has been mentioned to survive, a mage needs to have something else going to play alone against the big stuff.  Just wanted to answer the question another player asked about why it was necessary to be able to solo a ballon.  By the way, a necro mage in wraith form using the death ray against para balron fighting a pet or other player can do an outstanding amount of damage.  Well worth having in a party.

Merus said:

I agree that magery AoE and summon spells could use a rebalancing pass.  Blade spirits could have more the power of EVs as a 2 slot and EVs could be bumped to 4 and be slightly less powerful than the RC.  I would say a 10% damage reduction for all AoE targets, but damage output isn’t split.

At the end of the day there will be pros and cons to different templates. There will be times that each template is more powerful or has better use.

Too many people ask to have every single template be able to do the same thing; that turns the game into like the original diablo where it didn't really matter what character you picked; you could beat the whole game. 

The only thing I'd ask for the SDI mage is that whatever slayer book or talisman you held would work on all spells casted; regardless of spell type since there isn't currently a spellweaving slayer book or many mystic slayer books (at least off the top of my head). That way thunderstorm (which is already a very good spell) would get a bit of an uptick for those tougher paragons along with some other non-magery spells.

That's not really true. If you were to use the boomerang you are able to hit additional mobs ( https://www.uoguide.com/Boomerang ) using mystic arc. This is similar to lightning arrow on the shortbow for archery. 

I think this topic has been driven pretty far in to the ground at this point but the idea of an archer/thrower etc being able to do some sort of whirlwind attack with their ranged weapons would completely overpower those skills (area spells already work similar) if they are dishing 70-100dmg per hit to everything in that area AND they are 7-10 tiles away.

Let's not pretend that it wouldn't be insanely overpowered in just about every sense. A warrior wouldn't even be able to kill anything before the archer bots "whirlwind arrow" everything on the screen...AND they have even less chance of dying.

McDougle said:

Whirlwind is surrounded by up to 8 targets in close contact right next to the warrior. Ofcourse warrior also have Hit area effect but that has much less damage. 

Mages' area effects spell can be any target near or far and it spreads from the center. If mages want the same area effect with same damage, then maybe the targets should all be standing next to the mage to have same damage like warrior whirlwind.

only going to quote the part of @ Seth post that's relevant 

this is exactly my point if the monsters' stayed away i would have no trouble but as i have said over and over be it a thrower an archer or a mage guess what you get surrounded but have no effective AOE like WW i want to balance that i have complained before about no WW throwing weapon ...

I don’t think I need to discuss further since you are getting off topic trying to get every template to have WW. You just like mages, archers, tamers and maybe mules to have whirlwind don’t you?

I rest my case and if Dev even bother to listen and accept your proposal, then I have serious question if they understand r p g as well.

I also like some off topic imbalance complaint, Ultima online is so weird, any template can have TANK defense by using full 70 resist suit and 45 dci. There is no real tank template in Ultimaonline, unless you use Mana and some special skills.

Ok let's take AOE equality off the table. Let's talk slayer talis for mages?

McDougle said:

Ok let's take AOE equality off the table. Let's talk slayer talis for mages?

Sure, you mean compare with the slayer spellbooks?

Mages also need to reduce sdi, it's too high. Also must have Hit Chance Increase because it's unfair they don't miss.

these are sarcastic remarks @McDougle

Seth said:

McDougle said:

Ok let's take AOE equality off the table. Let's talk slayer talis for mages?

Sure, you mean compare with the slayer spellbooks?


you get slayer weapons and talisman i want same for mage

Yes, we are still short of a Fey Cameo.

@Kyronix ;
Pls add that missing Fey slayer cameo for 2022. 

will Fey cameo be a OP item as it will then free up one weapon property slot ? 

Since we are talking about Spellcasters vs. Warriors, I would like to know, why on earth, while Warriors CAN have their Refinements to adjust their non-medable armor, Spellcasters, instead, cannot equally have "their " Refinements and thus be able to adjust "their " medable armor....

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/crafting/armor-refinement/

Armor Refinement allows players to apply Refinements to non-medable armor. 

Perhaps, a good start could be adding to Ultima Online "also" Refinements for medable armor which then Spellcasters could adjust and use ?

popps said:

Since we are talking about Spellcasters vs. Warriors, I would like to know, why on earth, while Warriors CAN have their Refinements to adjust their non-medable armor, Spellcasters, instead, cannot equally have "their " Refinements and thus be able to adjust "their " medable armor....

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/crafting/armor-refinement/

Armor Refinement allows players to apply Refinements to non-medable armor. 

Perhaps, a good start could be adding to Ultima Online "also" Refinements for medable armor which then Spellcasters could adjust and use ?

Because a mage does not need DCI. If refinements for medable reduced LMC then it would be fair.

Refined armor, dci drops anyway. All 75 resist and 20 dci left, so will end up worse then mage who:

Perhaps @popps should start his own thread about warrior vs mage defense because I'm talking slayer talisman for mages...

popps said:

Since we are talking about Spellcasters vs. Warriors, I would like to know, why on earth, while Warriors CAN have their Refinements to adjust their non-medable armor, Spellcasters, instead, cannot equally have "their " Refinements and thus be able to adjust "their " medable armor....

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/crafting/armor-refinement/

Armor Refinement allows players to apply Refinements to non-medable armor. 

Perhaps, a good start could be adding to Ultima Online "also" Refinements for medable armor which then Spellcasters could adjust and use ?

Who says mages must use medable armor?

There are good reasons for mages not to use medable armor.

Remember, the UO team nerfed the head slot transmog potion.  I would have liked a bone scholars halo that could have mage armor stripped.  Alas, that was not to be.

McDougle said:

Perhaps @ popps should start his own thread about warrior vs mage defense because I'm talking slayer talisman for mages...

After some thoughts I don't see why slayer Talisman should not apply to mages. They are capped at double slayer anyway, like the rest such as dragon slayer. 

Talking about SDI I am curious I have 180 SDI right now, what is the high for a mage?

Riner said:

Talking about SDI I am curious I have 180 SDI right now, what is the high for a mage?

There's no official cap but some mumbo jumbo about diminishing returns 

There are no diminishing returns on SDI.  Its a direct calculation.

180 is higher than many players have.  Congrats!

Riner said:

Talking about SDI I am curious I have 180 SDI right now, what is the high for a mage?

Arnold7 said:

By the way, a necro mage in wraith form using the death ray against para balron fighting a pet or other player can do an outstanding amount of damage.  Well worth having in a party.

Riner said:

Talking about SDI I am curious I have 180 SDI right now, what is the high for a mage?

It's 250 after that you don't get any higher even if you have more on the char.

Chrille said:

Riner said:

Talking about SDI I am curious I have 180 SDI right now, what is the high for a mage?

It's 250 after that you don't get any higher even if you have more on the char.

Add grapes of wrath for your last points to reach 250+

Pawain said:

popps said:

Since we are talking about Spellcasters vs. Warriors, I would like to know, why on earth, while Warriors CAN have their Refinements to adjust their non-medable armor, Spellcasters, instead, cannot equally have "their " Refinements and thus be able to adjust "their " medable armor....

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/crafting/armor-refinement/

Armor Refinement allows players to apply Refinements to non-medable armor. 

Perhaps, a good start could be adding to Ultima Online "also" Refinements for medable armor which then Spellcasters could adjust and use ?

Because a mage does not need DCI. If refinements for medable reduced LMC then it would be fair.

Well, considering that, to my understanding, Defense Chance Increase enhances a character's ability to defend him/herself from melee or ranged attacks, I would say that also Spellcasters are affected by low DCI.....

Even if a spellcasting character is very good at moving around, when casting a spell they still stop still and, thus, increase their chances to be hit by a melee attack and, of course, even if they are great "runners around", they can still get hit by ranged Archery Weapons or Throwing Weapons not to mention Ninjitsu Shurikens and Fukiyas....

Bottom line is, to my viewing, also Spellcasters can take advantage (and thus be penalized by low DCI) by Defense Chance Increase.

Hence, I do not understand why Refinements cannot be also made available for medable armor that Spellcasters use.

Why does your mage have dci? 

A mage is not a melee toon they had summons now pets to keep things off them. Also can invis.

Put 45 DCI on your mage and look at your parry chance on your shield after fighting.

May as well give mages +5 extra resists for free instead. Same thing.

despite @popps trying to derail us lets stay focused on the current point of my post which is slayer talisman for mages there is zero reason we should not get the extra damage @Kyronix is there a reason slayer  talisman don't work for casting? 

Cause they gave us books at events.

To answer both you and popps. The devs understand the game mechanics.

Pawain said:

Cause they gave us books at events.

To answer both you and popps. The devs understand the game mechanics.

Yes we have slayer books warriors have slayer weapons and talisman there is no reason a talisman shouldn't work for spells 

PlayerSkillFTW said:

Btw, Slayer Spellbooks apply to Mysticism's "Nether Cyclone" AoE spell, and it doesn't split damage between targets, it deals full damage to all. It just deals Chaos damage though, so you have no idea what Resist it's going to hit.

Great, the UO team should allow meteor swarm, chain lightning, etc, to get the same "it doesn't split damage between targets".   The damage shouldn't be divided between targets, just like "Nether Cyclone".

Thank you!

ForeverFun said:

PlayerSkillFTW said:

Btw, Slayer Spellbooks apply to Mysticism's "Nether Cyclone" AoE spell, and it doesn't split damage between targets, it deals full damage to all. It just deals Chaos damage though, so you have no idea what Resist it's going to hit.

Great, the UO team should allow meteor swarm, chain lightning, etc, to get the same "it doesn't split damage between targets".   The damage shouldn't be divided between targets, just like "Nether Cyclone".

Thank you!

Exactly! Or have those mean monsters stay away so i can sit in back and be a good caster

On the intent to try and boost SDI for mages, there are two other approaches beyond the "talisman" debate:

1. Introduce a new set of more targeted lesser slayer books.  Balron is an example.
2. Introduce new artifacts with SDI.  The unused skirt and shirt slots would be interesting.  A new SDI belt would be interesting too.

If you had a slayer talisman that worked for mages the same way they work for melee, i would think the devs would likely have to cap SDI to balance it.
the overrun on damage would be significant.  

Pawain said:

Why does your mage have dci? 

A mage is not a melee toon they had summons now pets to keep things off them. Also can invis.

Put 45 DCI on your mage and look at your parry chance on your shield after fighting.

May as well give mages +5 extra resists for free instead. Same thing.

The (mostly) obvious reason is PvP where most mages do have combat skill like wrestling.

Please keep in mind i am talking pure (ish) casters not tamers with magery the mystic/weaver/mage the necro/weaver/mage and yes i have a wrestling parry mage  and I don't pvp 

Pawain said:

Why does your mage have dci? 

A mage is not a melee toon they had summons now pets to keep things off them. Also can invis.

Put 45 DCI on your mage and look at your parry chance on your shield after fighting.

May as well give mages +5 extra resists for free instead. Same thing.

PlayerSkillFTW said:

Pawain said:

Why does your mage have dci? 

A mage is not a melee toon they had summons now pets to keep things off them. Also can invis.

Put 45 DCI on your mage and look at your parry chance on your shield after fighting.

May as well give mages +5 extra resists for free instead. Same thing.

My Death Ray Tamer/Mage © has 45% DCI. He has 120 Magery and uses a -0 Mage Wep (Balakai's Shaman Staff) whenever something swaps to me, so is very hard to land hits on. Saved my ass a number of times when a Paragon Balron or Blackthorn Captain swapped from my Triton to me, let me survive long enough to get an invis off. Just to be clear though, that 45% DCI would be useless without the -0 Mage Wep as well. I usually swap to a Slayer Spellbook when mobs are firmly on my Triton.

For Blackthorn Captains, since SDI doesn't affect Death Ray damage, i'll just stick with my Balakai's Shaman Staff while channeling Death Ray, unless it's a Sampire Captain, then i'll use an Undead Slayer Spellbook. Seen 900+ damage Death Ray ticks on some of them then. Imagine how crazy that'd be if Slayer Talismans also applied to it, double stacking Undead Slayer Spellbook+Undead Slayer Cameo for 1,350+ damage ticks then.

So you are complaining that you need + 5 resists?

Because that is what this derailed part of this thread is about.

I was talking to Popps, we know he does not have your type mage.  We know he does not PvP.

So keep the events that happen when you spin 3 times, eat an Apple, Bandage yourself and Bow,  out of this derailed part of the thread.

Either justify why we need more resists on a mage at the cost of DCI or be smart and know why we cant have that.  Stay on topic of this derail.

Ok no support for the first 2 suggestions how about my three follow up 

This brings up three more adjustments 
1. No true cold spells for mages nothing at all for an area spell and mind blast is ridiculous slow. Add AOE and a decent direct damage cold spell 
2. No way for a mage to leech mana perhaps an adjustment to the mastery scaling off real skill level.
3 summons,  mage summons are just so 1998 weak and need a buff to be able to compete in today world 

McDougle said:

2. No way for a mage to leech mana perhaps an adjustment to the mastery scaling off real skill level.

Not true.  Somebody else alludes to the solution in this thread.

On the other hand, a mage should also be able to leech life with spells while in vamp form.  That was brought up in a separate thread.

ForeverFun said:

McDougle said:

2. No way for a mage to leech mana perhaps an adjustment to the mastery scaling off real skill level.

Not true.  Somebody else alludes to the solution in this thread.

On the other hand, a mage should also be able to leech life with spells while in vamp form.  That was brought up in a separate thread.

Necromancer yes mage no 

ForeverFun said:

On the intent to try and boost SDI for mages, there are two other approaches beyond the "talisman" debate:

1. Introduce a new set of more targeted lesser slayer books.  Balron is an example.
2. Introduce new artifacts with SDI.  The unused skirt and shirt slots would be interesting.  A new SDI belt would be interesting too.

The dragon slayer is a lesser slayer that does double slayer damage vs ancient wrym, greater dragon, dragon and drakes.... but demon slayer is a super slayer, single slayer for all demons... I think all they need to do is make demon slayer a lesser slayer.

McDougle said:

ForeverFun said:

McDougle said:

2. No way for a mage to leech mana perhaps an adjustment to the mastery scaling off real skill level.

Not true.  Somebody else alludes to the solution in this thread.

On the other hand, a mage should also be able to leech life with spells while in vamp form.  That was brought up in a separate thread.

Necromancer yes mage no 

It requires a whopping 20 points to maintain.  A worthwhile tradeoff.

Seth said:

ForeverFun said:

On the intent to try and boost SDI for mages, there are two other approaches beyond the "talisman" debate:

1. Introduce a new set of more targeted lesser slayer books.  Balron is an example.
2. Introduce new artifacts with SDI.  The unused skirt and shirt slots would be interesting.  A new SDI belt would be interesting too.

The dragon slayer is a lesser slayer that does double slayer damage vs ancient wrym, greater dragon, dragon and drakes.... but demon slayer is a super slayer, single slayer for all demons... I think all they need to do is make demon slayer a lesser slayer.

The game is one of collectibles, make more lesser slayers for mobs throughout the game -- balron was but one example.  Heck, a virtuebane lesser slayer would be nice!

ForeverFun said:

McDougle said:

ForeverFun said:

McDougle said:

2. No way for a mage to leech mana perhaps an adjustment to the mastery scaling off real skill level.

Not true.  Somebody else alludes to the solution in this thread.

On the other hand, a mage should also be able to leech life with spells while in vamp form.  That was brought up in a separate thread.

Necromancer yes mage no 

It requires a whopping 20 points to maintain.  A worthwhile tradeoff.

Seth said:

ForeverFun said:

On the intent to try and boost SDI for mages, there are two other approaches beyond the "talisman" debate:

1. Introduce a new set of more targeted lesser slayer books.  Balron is an example.
2. Introduce new artifacts with SDI.  The unused skirt and shirt slots would be interesting.  A new SDI belt would be interesting too.

The dragon slayer is a lesser slayer that does double slayer damage vs ancient wrym, greater dragon, dragon and drakes.... but demon slayer is a super slayer, single slayer for all demons... I think all they need to do is make demon slayer a lesser slayer.

The game is one of collectibles, make more lesser slayers for mobs throughout the game -- balron was but one example.  Heck, a virtuebane lesser slayer would be nice!

Yes i was born of the age of shadows you merely... 

ForeverFun said:

McDougle said:

2. No way for a mage to leech mana perhaps an adjustment to the mastery scaling off real skill level.

Not true.  Somebody else alludes to the solution in this thread.

On the other hand, a mage should also be able to leech life with spells while in vamp form.  That was brought up in a separate thread.

The mage really has alot of other advantages, before we make the mage become better than a tank warrior for tanking.

I have already said, the warrior needs to run there, wait for spawns to surround and touch him, for the whirlwind bonus to work with bushido.

It's a different mechanism.

If anyone want this mechanism, make a warrior.

Don't ask a mage to become as good as a warrior, or a warrior to become as good as a tamer and mage.

So now mages can do this same whirlwind while protected with same 70 resist suit and he Can have 45 dci. What then separates the warrior from the mage?

Seth said:

ForeverFun said:

McDougle said:

2. No way for a mage to leech mana perhaps an adjustment to the mastery scaling off real skill level.

Not true.  Somebody else alludes to the solution in this thread.

On the other hand, a mage should also be able to leech life with spells while in vamp form.  That was brought up in a separate thread.

The mage really has alot of other advantages, before we make the mage become better than a tank warrior for tanking.

I have already said, the warrior needs to run there, wait for spawns to surround and touch him, for the whirlwind bonus to work with bushido.

It's a different mechanism.

If anyone want this mechanism, make a warrior.

Don't ask a mage to become as good as a warrior, or a warrior to become as good as a tamer and mage.

So now mages can do this same whirlwind while protected with same 70 resist suit and he Can have 45 dci. What then separates the warrior from the mage?

We have accepted the rejection of improved AOE and are now rejecting other ideas 
Slayer talisman for mages

1. No true cold spells for mages nothing at all for an area spell and mind blast is ridiculous slow. Add AOE and a decent direct damage cold spell 
2. No way for a mage to leech mana perhaps an adjustment to the mastery scaling off real skill level.
3 summons,  mage summons are just so 1998 weak and need a buff to be able to compete in today world 
Please select and reject a new idea 

3.  That's why we replaced Summons with much more powerful pets.

1.  They are not going to add new spells.  

2. There are only 3 spells I can not chain cast forever with MR 30 while running consume.

My Archer runs out of mana way before my mage does.

You are sounding like you never play a mage.

Pawain said:

3.  That's why we replaced Summons with much more powerful pets.

1.  They are not going to add new spells.  

2. There are only 3 spells I can not chain cast forever with MR 30 while running consume.

My Archer runs out of mana way before my mage does.

You are sounding like you never play a mage.

I assume you have given all your expert opinion by this point and will no longer contribute?

Written in stone, refer back 10 years will still be the same.  The devs know the game mechanics.

@McDougle, my advice is to extract the key pieces of your customer service requests from this thread and place them into the "Customer Service" "Bugs" section.  There are certainly parts of what have been written here that I'd support.

My understanding is the developers have access to the UO source code, and software is very fungible and can be changed without too much fanfare.  Nothing should really be static forever, in particular when there are paying customers requesting changes or pointing out problems.  As a corollary, I had some issues with online purchases and I heard back with resolution within days of raising issues.  This really shouldn't be any different.  It doesn't make sense for non-broadsword staff to make statements as to whether something is set in stone/etc.

ForeverFun said:

@ McDougle, my advice is to extract the key pieces of your customer service requests from this thread and place them into the "Customer Service" "Bugs" section.  There are certainly parts of what have been written here that I'd support.

My understanding is the developers have access to the UO source code, and software is very fungible and can be changed without too much fanfare.  Nothing should really be static forever, in particular when there are paying customers requesting changes or pointing out problems.  As a corollary, I had some issues with online purchases and I heard back with resolution within days of raising issues.  This really shouldn't be any different.  It doesn't make sense for non-broadsword staff to make statements as to whether something is set in stone/etc.

Adding a new spell to magery is easy?  They have to add the scroll drops, the crafting of it.
What circle would the new spell fit in?   Maybe they could change Mindblast in some way, but what other magery spell has been changed recently?

You think this is the first time someone noticed talismans do not work for spells?  There is a reason for that.

They could revamp summons but it is doubtful they will do that because of NL.  With us only having old tag weapons and armor I doubt they would make summons stronger in NL when we will be weaker.

Summons in NL should appear stronger, just like they seemed in 1997 to 2000s.

@Pawain i think everyone understands your stance on this why continue posting negativity let people Express other opinions...

Pawain said:

ForeverFun said:

@ McDougle, my advice is to extract the key pieces of your customer service requests from this thread and place them into the "Customer Service" "Bugs" section.  There are certainly parts of what have been written here that I'd support.

My understanding is the developers have access to the UO source code, and software is very fungible and can be changed without too much fanfare.  Nothing should really be static forever, in particular when there are paying customers requesting changes or pointing out problems.  As a corollary, I had some issues with online purchases and I heard back with resolution within days of raising issues.  This really shouldn't be any different.  It doesn't make sense for non-broadsword staff to make statements as to whether something is set in stone/etc.

Adding a new spell to magery is easy?  They have to add the scroll drops, the crafting of it.
What circle would the new spell fit in?   Maybe they could change Mindblast in some way, but what other magery spell has been changed recently?

You think this is the first time someone noticed talismans do not work for spells?  There is a reason for that.

They could revamp summons but it is doubtful they will do that because of NL.  With us only having old tag weapons and armor I doubt they would make summons stronger in NL when we will be weaker.

Summons in NL should appear stronger, just like they seemed in 1997 to 2000s.

I made no claims as to how easy something might be.  I also didn't suggest adding new spells.  Usually there is some degree of complexity that changes based on the approach the developer chooses.  The UO developers are best to chime in on this.  I'd wager:

1. Changing the AOE magery spells like chain light, meteor swarm to not split the damage like various other spells is a straightforward change.
2. Adding new lesser slayer books/items is of more complexity than #1.  (Balron, virtuebane, etc).
3. Adding new spells is of more complexity than #2.
4. Adding a way to select a preferred damage type modifier to spells, is of unknown complexity, though the bard discord mastery allows this.  Quivers also allow this.
5. Changing talismans for mages is probably more error prone, I remember seeing a video on youtube showing weird odd interactions with WOD and talismans.  One interesting questions is whether it's intentional that slayers double up for melee.

I'm only guessing here.  The point stands there are plenty of suggestions, apparent open bugs, etc.  I don't know if these things are falling on deaf ears.

1. Sure I would like to be more powerful.  Allowing the AoE magery spells to do max damage to all targets sounds great.  IMO they are already powerful enough.  They kill level 1 spawn in 1 hit.
But sure lemme kill 10 dragons with 1 chain lightning.  I am for it.

2. I use slayer books for the dynamic events.  I like having to know what you need to use. 
Slayer books already come in Super and individual varieties.  If they want to add more individuals, fine by me. IMO these event Paragons should be more difficult than normal ones.  A demon slayer works fine on normal Para Balrons.  I doubt the OP has ever used one on a normal para balron.

3 and 4  spells have been the same for years, dont fix what aint broke.  We figured out how to kill all the skeletons in Khaldun. The OP probably has never done Khaldun to see what his spells to do mobs that are immune to all damage types but 1.  I have over 200 costumes from Khaldun, Mages are able to kill things. I only used my mage there.

5. Repeat 2.  I feel our current slayer books allow us to kill everything that is not a dynamic spawn super mob.  The roof is fine as is. 2 players do it every day over and over.  dont fix what aint broken.

Warriors weapons are very specific did everyone make a different demon slayer for of ice vs for of hythloth? With different elemental damage? Guess what mages (let's qualify this to someone who uses MAGERY for 90% of their damage output) had same spells as always. I carry at least a dozen slayer books trying to optimize. Nothing i have asked for is OP  or hurts another build....

Secondly, I

McDougle said:

Warriors weapons are very specific did everyone make a different demon slayer for of ice vs for of hythloth? With different elemental damage? Guess what mages (let's qualify this to someone who uses MAGERY for 90% of their damage output) had same spells as always. I carry at least a dozen slayer books trying to optimize. Nothing i have asked for is OP  or hurts another build....

Now if only the spellbook strap worked...
Improvements to mage doesn't hurt anyone...

It is working for me, at least I can carry all of them around without any problems.

When I change books at times they don't go back in strap i posted this a couple times in bugs forum 

McDougle said:

When I change books at times they don't go back in strap i posted this a couple times in bugs forum 

It's on two separate accounts. i was pondering if it might be my EC macro set up 

McDougle said:

It's on two separate accounts. i was pondering if it might be my EC macro set up 

Seth said:

McDougle said:

It's on two separate accounts. i was pondering if it might be my EC macro set up 

I just swapped some spellbooks around and now some of them are not returning to the strap! There is definitely a bug here but but but my argument still stands, all the spellbooks are weighing 0 stones and I can still carry all of them on my super sdi mage... 😂

Lol indeed!

a mage is more a utility character, not a pure dps character.

Smoot said:

a mage is more a utility character, not a pure dps character.

I think the developers understand as we've gotten hooks shield and yukios earrings both great boost what's needed is fine tuning not a major revamp..

I do agree SDI PvM mages need a boost in pvm.
They are fine with solo mobs, mostly, they really suffer in large spawn, mainly because of the disruptions, it makes them pretty much unplayable.

The solutions really is - find a way to completely minimise disruptions in PvM, it would make them far more playable.

Protection spell just doesn't do it anymore, it is far too slow casting, and the reduction in resist also proves lethal in spawn, with paralysis.

Pawain said:

I feel our current slayer books allow us to kill everything that is not a dynamic spawn super mob.  The roof is fine as is. 2 players do it every day over and over.  dont fix what aint broken.

Let's play it out a bit.  Let's assume 2 players could finish the roof bosses 2x as fast as today, using new equipment.  What's the downside to that?  It's reducing the net time spent in a given roof run.   

The time spent keying for roof should also be reduced -- say, you key the rooms, and they stay keyed for 12 hours.  So you can do the roof any number of times during that 12 hour window once keyed, without the repeated room grind.  I think that would add to the fun.  Those same 2 players you reference could choose to keep running it all day, or they could get some of their life back.

Seth said:

The dragon slayer is a lesser slayer that does double slayer damage vs ancient wrym, greater dragon, dragon and drakes.... but demon slayer is a super slayer, single slayer for all demons... I think all they need to do is make demon slayer a lesser slayer.

PlayerSkillFTW said:

Seth said:

The dragon slayer is a lesser slayer that does double slayer damage vs ancient wrym, greater dragon, dragon and drakes.... but demon slayer is a super slayer, single slayer for all demons... I think all they need to do is make demon slayer a lesser slayer.

That's the way it used to be. There was a "Daemon Slayer" Lesser Slayer, and a "Demon Slayer" Super Slayer that included Daemon and Gargoyle under it. One of my friends had a pre-AoS Demon Slayer Juka Bow that was modified after AoS launched, and it ended up with both Demon Slayer and Daemon Slayer on it. He would deal absurd damage to the Dark Father, but would always 1 shot himself if Blood Oathed by DF.

Single target Necro spells such as Strangulate and Poison Strike (even though it has splash damage and is affected by Conduit) should be made affected by Slayer Spellbooks as well.

Thanks for the past info, do u remember the numbers for the “absurd” damage for the DF? Because currently my cold mystic spell with dragon slayer is more than 500 per hit. I have not tried the ancient wry but I think damage is at least 200-300 per hit.

ForeverFun said:

Pawain said:

I feel our current slayer books allow us to kill everything that is not a dynamic spawn super mob.  The roof is fine as is. 2 players do it every day over and over.  dont fix what aint broken.

Let's play it out a bit.  Let's assume 2 players could finish the roof bosses 2x as fast as today, using new equipment.  What's the downside to that?  It's reducing the net time spent in a given roof run.   

The time spent keying for roof should also be reduced -- say, you key the rooms, and they stay keyed for 12 hours.  So you can do the roof any number of times during that 12 hour window once keyed, without the repeated room grind.  I think that would add to the fun.  Those same 2 players you reference could choose to keep running it all day, or they could get some of their life back.

I'm not a speed gamer. I also would like to kill things faster. 

I just do not see anything changing.

The title of this thread portrays an imbalance.  Yet no one has posted numbers from a mage, melee toon or archer hitting the same target.  In most cases my Archer does more damage per hit.

This gets nowhere until there is a proven imbalance in many areas.  Which playing a Mage for many hours a day along with over 3/4 of my shard. I do not see an imbalance.  I res these so called superior melee toons where I play.  The only time I have used a melee toon is in these dymanic Dungeon events.  Which I welcome as a change from my usual play.  But, my melee toons are now mothballed until the next one.  Back to mage/tamers.

We have a player on LS that is a plain mage that just shoots fireballs at rapid pace and makes EVs.  He plays everywhere and can solo Doom.