Can Provo be fixed

for next event please <span></span> @Kyronix @Mesanna

It worked for Black gate.  You can sit and watch 2 orcs fight for 3 minutes or kill them instantly with anything else.  I guess on dead shards you could wait a few minutes to kill a lich but they don't stay alive that long on busy shards.

It doesn't work in deceit  and crowd control is important  

The mobs they make for many events can not be provoked.  You can peace.  I don't know if the paras can be discorded.

"Pawain said:

It worked for Black gate.  You can sit and watch 2 orcs fight for 3 minutes or kill them instantly with anything else.  I guess on dead shards you could wait a few minutes to kill a lich but they don't stay alive that long on busy shards.

Personally, I think that these "Treasures of..." Events should have content achieveable "also" by templates other then the "same old, same old...."

Sure, killing something with a Bard might take longer and 2 Orcs fighting one another might take 3 minutes for a kill BUT, I need to think, the Developers MIGHT be able to code the Drops so that the rate is "higher" using skills which take longer to kill as compared to skills which take a shorter time to kill ?

In the end, time is the same for all players....

So, regardless whether a Dexer can fight 50 MoBs in 3 minutes and a Bard only 1, the drop rate could be "adjusted" to what skill is being used there ?

Of course, it will need to take into account players using multiple skills like Bard AND Fighting skills and avoid them getting "both" skills' advantages as far as drops go...

It should be EITHER one... want to a be a Bard ? Then fine, the drop rate will be with less kills as they take more time, want to be a Fighter ? No problem, the drop rate will be a lot more kills to be needed to get a drop....

This way, ALL playing styles could be taken care of with these "Treasures of..." type of Events.

@Kyronix , @Bleak , what do you think ?

popps said:

"Pawain said:

It worked for Black gate.  You can sit and watch 2 orcs fight for 3 minutes or kill them instantly with anything else.  I guess on dead shards you could wait a few minutes to kill a lich but they don't stay alive that long on busy shards.

Personally, I think that these "Treasures of..." Events should have content achieveable "also" by templates other then the "same old, same old...."

Sure, killing something with a Bard might take longer and 2 Orcs fighting one another might take 3 minutes for a kill BUT, I need to think, the Developers MIGHT be able to code the Drops so that the rate is "higher" using skills which take longer to kill as compared to skills which take a shorter time to kill ?

In the end, time is the same for all players....

So, regardless whether a Dexer can fight 50 MoBs in 3 minutes and a Bard only 1, the drop rate could be "adjusted" to what skill is being used there ?

Of course, it will need to take into account players using multiple skills like Bard AND Fighting skills and avoid them getting "both" skills' advantages as far as drops go...

It should be EITHER one... want to a be a Bard ? Then fine, the drop rate will be with less kills as they take more time, want to be a Fighter ? No problem, the drop rate will be a lot more kills to be needed to get a drop....

This way, ALL playing styles could be taken care of with these "Treasures of..." type of Events.

@ Kyronix , @ Bleak , what do you think ?

Seth said:

popps said:

"Pawain said:

It worked for Black gate.  You can sit and watch 2 orcs fight for 3 minutes or kill them instantly with anything else.  I guess on dead shards you could wait a few minutes to kill a lich but they don't stay alive that long on busy shards.

Personally, I think that these "Treasures of..." Events should have content achieveable "also" by templates other then the "same old, same old...."

Sure, killing something with a Bard might take longer and 2 Orcs fighting one another might take 3 minutes for a kill BUT, I need to think, the Developers MIGHT be able to code the Drops so that the rate is "higher" using skills which take longer to kill as compared to skills which take a shorter time to kill ?

In the end, time is the same for all players....

So, regardless whether a Dexer can fight 50 MoBs in 3 minutes and a Bard only 1, the drop rate could be "adjusted" to what skill is being used there ?

Of course, it will need to take into account players using multiple skills like Bard AND Fighting skills and avoid them getting "both" skills' advantages as far as drops go...

It should be EITHER one... want to a be a Bard ? Then fine, the drop rate will be with less kills as they take more time, want to be a Fighter ? No problem, the drop rate will be a lot more kills to be needed to get a drop....

This way, ALL playing styles could be taken care of with these "Treasures of..." type of Events.

@ Kyronix , @ Bleak , what do you think ?

When we say to include different types of character in a quest, it means they are used for different purpose in a quest line. For example, thieves required to steal something to activate a spawn, so that warriors can then fight (Kotl). Or need to go fishing to get parts so as to access a certain Boss area, so hunters (dexers, warriors, mages, tamers) can fight.

I have not seen anyone in the world design a system where a bard can get a drop by watching 2 monsters killing themselves (and eating pop corn), while a warrior runs like mad and kill 3 rooms of 100 monsters to get the same drop. Then warriors have to repair all the worn out expensive armor, jewels and weapons, while the bard, only need to change to a new, cheap music device.

Blackthorn, Khaldun, Kotl, Shrine wars, etc are all hunting events. You are asking for something else that sounds ridiculous. It should only be when the event is designed specifically for such character type, e.g. Artisan Festival is ONLY for crafters.

Please don't ask the Dev to design different drop rate for different types of character using the same monsters in a hunting event. This is *Slap Forehead*

I have not seen anyone in the world design a system where a bard can get a drop by watching 2 monsters killing themselves (and eating pop corn), while a warrior runs like mad and kill 3 rooms of 100 monsters to get the same drop. Then warriors have to repair all the worn out expensive armor, jewels and weapons, while the bard, only need to change to a new, cheap music device.

It is called Balance, as I see it.

I do not see nothing wrong in having different Templates having a different drop rate depending on their "kills" rate ability....

It is clear that different Templates have a different drop rate, some may drop way faster as others and, YET, all players have still one common denominator, TIME.....

They all spend X time in the game, whether it is with a Fighter, a Tamer, a Bard, a whatever.

The only thing that needs to be assessed is "on average" what drop rate have the different Templates in the same X amount of time and then adjust it for the different Templates so as to balance them all in a way that moreless get the same number of drops in the same amount of time, regardless whether one uses a Fighter, a Spellcaster, a Tamer, a Bard or whatever.

If the Developers could pull such a thing out, then we could again see a variety of Templates playing the Events in Ultima Online that the players enjoy because, there would no longer be 1 type of a Template who gets the most drops, but ALL Templates, regardless what they are, would moreless get the same number of drops in the same amount of time.

Players would be finally able to play the Templates that they enjoy playing, and not those which are "most productive"....

Personally, I think such a change would be for the better sake of Ultima Online, as it would "free up" players in their choice of a Template to participate at a given Event without worrying that, if they are using this or that type of a Template, they could be missing out on drops....

Those who love playing a Bard, could be playing a Bard and still get moreless the same drops as, say, a Sampire...

Freedom of playing style, finally, and way more enjoyment in playing Ultima Online for players....

I see no valid reason for mobs being immune to provoke.  Bards don’t need some insane refactored drop rate, that is just dumb.  If you want to play a bard in Deceit you will be less efficient and get fewer drops, just like any other less efficient template... but barring a legitimate PvM skill for a PvM event through coding is ridiculous.

Popps, do you have a bard, and play it regularly?

Or is this just ANOTHER opinionated post based on no experience?

My mystic bard doesn't need any help killin stuff I just need all my skills to work  imagine if whirlwind stopped working that is how provo not working affects me..

Asking for more balance in the game is not unreasonable. Playing a sampire or dragoon (as I do) is considerably over-powered compared to other builds. The trick here isn't to lower the effectiveness of overpowered skills and classes, the trick is to make the underpowered skills more viable.

What a lot of us would like is a meaningful, effective reason to play a bard in more than just the very few niche events that a bard is helpful at. Imagine if having a bard in your party increased the drop rate of artifacts and rewards. Or a bard song that instantly made all hostile NPCs target each other or paralyze across an entire screen versus having to one at a time things. The same with a blanket discordance ability across the screen. Bards were once very overpowered in the game and I recognize they needed to scale that back. The sheer fact, though, is every boss is un-discordable and un-provokable. What is the bard class? It is not really effective at overt combat anymore nor are the benefits of being a 4x120 bard as useful for defense as the point and scroll investment requires.

I would love to see area effects for bards i made another post about people not liking to party and if my bard buffs just affected everyone in  a radius around me that would rock 

Turning bards into an AoE class would be excellent. 

I wonder if they ever would umporve upon the fire horn?  Maybe make it some sort of enhanced bard weapon.  Possibly slayer properties and such.

I use my Provo/Tamer to solo the Pit to farm the crystals.  He also did well doing the Black Gate Quest and the Black Gate Champ Spawn.  Didn't take him to Deceit tho..

Jepeth said:

Asking for more balance in the game is not unreasonable. Playing a sampire or dragoon (as I do) is considerably over-powered compared to other builds. The trick here isn't to lower the effectiveness of overpowered skills and classes, the trick is to make the underpowered skills more viable.

What a lot of us would like is a meaningful, effective reason to play a bard in more than just the very few niche events that a bard is helpful at. Imagine if having a bard in your party increased the drop rate of artifacts and rewards. Or a bard song that instantly made all hostile NPCs target each other or paralyze across an entire screen versus having to one at a time things. The same with a blanket discordance ability across the screen. Bards were once very overpowered in the game and I recognize they needed to scale that back. The sheer fact, though, is every boss is un-discordable and un-provokable. What is the bard class? It is not really effective at overt combat anymore nor are the benefits of being a 4x120 bard as useful for defense as the point and scroll investment requires.

Yes, better and more effective Bard songs would be a wonderful thing to have but in the end, what matters is "drops".....

That a Bard can improve one's own Party to get more drops or more easily, does not help that Bard to get his/her drops...

And what about the Bards who like to play Solo or they play on a low Population Shard not at prime time and, thus, have a serious hard time finding fellow players to hunt in a Party ?

There needs to be, to my opinion, a way for Templates other then Sampires or their variations of and Tamers to participate to these Event and get their own drops, individually, likewise....

Besides, there is more Templates in Ultima Online besides Bards who are neglected for these Events... what about them and all those players who actually enjoy playing those other Templates ?

Is it possible for them also that the Developers were to find a way to have them able to get drops during these Events, also ?

popps said:

Jepeth said:

Asking for more balance in the game is not unreasonable. Playing a sampire or dragoon (as I do) is considerably over-powered compared to other builds. The trick here isn't to lower the effectiveness of overpowered skills and classes, the trick is to make the underpowered skills more viable.

What a lot of us would like is a meaningful, effective reason to play a bard in more than just the very few niche events that a bard is helpful at. Imagine if having a bard in your party increased the drop rate of artifacts and rewards. Or a bard song that instantly made all hostile NPCs target each other or paralyze across an entire screen versus having to one at a time things. The same with a blanket discordance ability across the screen. Bards were once very overpowered in the game and I recognize they needed to scale that back. The sheer fact, though, is every boss is un-discordable and un-provokable. What is the bard class? It is not really effective at overt combat anymore nor are the benefits of being a 4x120 bard as useful for defense as the point and scroll investment requires.

Yes, better and more effective Bard songs would be a wonderful thing to have but in the end, what matters is "drops".....

That a Bard can improve one's own Party to get more drops or more easily, does not help that Bard to get his/her drops...

And what about the Bards who like to play Solo or they play on a low Population Shard not at prime time and, thus, have a serious hard time finding fellow players to hunt in a Party ?

There needs to be, to my opinion, a way for Templates other then Sampires or their variations of and Tamers to participate to these Event and get their own drops, individually, likewise....

Besides, there is more Templates in Ultima Online besides Bards who are neglected for these Events... what about them and all those players who actually enjoy playing those other Templates ?

Is it possible for them also that the Developers were to find a way to have them able to get drops during these Events, also ?

I think Bards songs are powerful enough, my toons get over 150HP when they are on.  Pets get max regens.  Then everyone gets more damage.

Bards can get drops.  KILL STUFF!  Barding is 4 skills, you can have 3 more.

Pawain said:

popps said:

Jepeth said:

Asking for more balance in the game is not unreasonable. Playing a sampire or dragoon (as I do) is considerably over-powered compared to other builds. The trick here isn't to lower the effectiveness of overpowered skills and classes, the trick is to make the underpowered skills more viable.

What a lot of us would like is a meaningful, effective reason to play a bard in more than just the very few niche events that a bard is helpful at. Imagine if having a bard in your party increased the drop rate of artifacts and rewards. Or a bard song that instantly made all hostile NPCs target each other or paralyze across an entire screen versus having to one at a time things. The same with a blanket discordance ability across the screen. Bards were once very overpowered in the game and I recognize they needed to scale that back. The sheer fact, though, is every boss is un-discordable and un-provokable. What is the bard class? It is not really effective at overt combat anymore nor are the benefits of being a 4x120 bard as useful for defense as the point and scroll investment requires.

Yes, better and more effective Bard songs would be a wonderful thing to have but in the end, what matters is "drops".....

That a Bard can improve one's own Party to get more drops or more easily, does not help that Bard to get his/her drops...

And what about the Bards who like to play Solo or they play on a low Population Shard not at prime time and, thus, have a serious hard time finding fellow players to hunt in a Party ?

There needs to be, to my opinion, a way for Templates other then Sampires or their variations of and Tamers to participate to these Event and get their own drops, individually, likewise....

Besides, there is more Templates in Ultima Online besides Bards who are neglected for these Events... what about them and all those players who actually enjoy playing those other Templates ?

Is it possible for them also that the Developers were to find a way to have them able to get drops during these Events, also ?

I think Bards songs are powerful enough, my toons get over 150HP when they are on.  Pets get max regens.  Then everyone gets more damage.

Bards can get drops.  KILL STUFF!  Barding is 4 skills, you can have 3 more.

Bards can get drops.  KILL STUFF!  Barding is 4 skills, you can have 3 more.

I am sorry, but, as I see it, a Bards should not need a Weapon skill or Spellcasting to kill things, it should be able to do it with its Bardic skills, namely, Provocation, Discord, Peacemake.

Often people see Bardic skill in "support" of other skills, well, to my opinion, that is a gross mistake which should not be done.

A Bard is a Bard and should be able to play using his/her bardic skill, and not need "other" skills in order to be able to play which would then make the Bardic skills a "2nd Class" set of skills only used to "support" 1st Class fighting skills.

That is at least if we want to see skills ALL on a same, equal footing.

So you want a template that only requires 480 points to kill the same as templates that take 780 points and require actual suit building.
 😂 

@popps please just play on TC where you can get everything with no effort.

How many points have you turned into Deceit now?  I just passed 700 and have all the human and elf suits spare and have chests with 120 more to trade to others for mannequins.   You have til Saturday to play instead of post about not getting drops.  KILL STUFF.  I got my 5 epaulets that were my goal. Someone traded me a Titan relic for one so I had to get another to replace it. Then I decided to get one for My Garg.  So, I still need 100 more for a kotl ring and some more boots.

Also got 20+ cubes. How many did you get?

Make goals instead of making complaints and learn how to play better, Or accept mediocrity and leave us out of your choice.

My Blacksmith demands drops! I have 120 skill points invested! Gimme gimme gimme! We are weeks into this event and even though I (we) know what works, I Demand the devs give me 500+ drops credited to my acct!!!

BTW @popps Congrats on joining a decent guild on Catskills. I did see your {ALLY} tag today. Gawd help em!

jelinidas said:

My Blacksmith demands drops! I have 120 skill points invested! Gimme gimme gimme! We are weeks into this event and even though I (we) know what works, I Demand the devs give me 500+ drops credited to my acct!!!

BTW @ popps Congrats on joining a decent guild on Catskills. I did see your {ALLY} tag today. Gawd help em!

Will Popps finally see how fast and easy a Fel spawn is?

Again all  i am asking is that all my skills work as intended....

Must every thread devolve into you all personally attacking Popps?

Returning back to the point of this thread 480 skill points is a large investment for, as mentioned earlier, not a lot of synergy between them. Having 120 in each music skill improves the skills overall but more tangible benefits could be found. I cannot discord, provo, and peace every single pair of monsters, that's silly. But I can use my sword, augmented by tactics, bushido, and anatomy to synergize together. Other than the Pitts or multiple pocket bards for pet health purposes I've yet to see an EM boss, a limited-time event, or true endgame content that a bard would be a fun, viable character to bring. 

As I previously said, if bards are meant to be a support class only, fine. But let's expand what they can do to give players a fun reason to play them in support situations.

Jepeth said:

Must every thread devolve into you all personally attacking Popps?

Returning back to the point of this thread 480 skill points is a large investment for, as mentioned earlier, not a lot of synergy between them. Having 120 in each music skill improves the skills overall but more tangible benefits could be found. I cannot discord, provo, and peace every single pair of monsters, that's silly. But I can use my sword, augmented by tactics, bushido, and anatomy to synergize together. Other than the Pitts or multiple pocket bards for pet health purposes I've yet to see an EM boss, a limited-time event, or true endgame content that a bard would be a fun, viable character to bring. 

As I previously said, if bards are meant to be a support class only, fine. But let's expand what they can do to give players a fun reason to play them in support situations.

I do play a bard. I use her in certain situations, not others. I do see Popps play, ask questions, disregard answers and still write novels. Move on...

I have an Archer bard that can kill many things.  I use him at Corgul and Scalis to give buffs to the others.

Discord:

Tribulation	in jux hur rel	Cast: 30; Upkeep: 16
Target Hit Chance reduced by up to 32%, Spell Damaged reduced by 32%, Damage Taken can trigger additional damage between 20-60% of the damage taken as physical once per second. (Discordance Based) (Chance to Trigger damage Musicianship Based)
Despair	kal des mani tym	Cast: 30; Upkeep:18
Target Strength Reduced by up to 32, 20 – 60 Damage (Physical), every 2 seconds. Dang good  Peace: Resilience kal mani tym Cast: 30 Upkeep: 8 Poison resistance increase(not the stat), Mortal, Bleed, Curse effect Durations decreased, Hp regen bonus 2-8, mana regen bonus 2-8, stamina regen bonus 2-8. Perseverance uus jux sanct Cast: 30; Upkeep: 8 Party Defense Chance increased by up to 16%, Damage reduced by up to 16%. Casting focus bonus 1-4%. Excellent for solo.  I use this for Balrons in Chaos. Provocation:  Inspire			uus por	Cast: 30 Upkeep: 8
Party Hit chance increase by up to 15%, Damage increase by up to 40%, SDI increased by up to 15% (PvP Cap 15)(Provocation Based)
Invigorate	an zu	Cast: 30; Upkeep: 8
Party Hit Points increased by up to 20, Party healed for 7-16 dmg every 4 seconds. (Provocation Based). Party Strength, Dex, Int, Increased by Up to 8. Excellent for groups. I get over 150HP Players just dont want to party.  Maybe spread the word about how good these buffs are. They are all better than any other masteries.  Peace does more regens than Consume. Jepeth said: Must every thread devolve into you all personally attacking Popps? I'll tell anyone when they are wrong or misinformed. He just happens to be one of those often.

• Agree the dynamic event spawn should be provocable.

• Agree that devs should consider making bard buffs not require being in a party, after all, the song can be heard in a certain radius, right?  If this were done, the mana consumption of the bard songs would likely need to be capped, as it's based on the number of targets affected by the song.
• Disagree that bards should get adjusted treatment in the drop calculations.  If a bard successfully discords a target, and is using a weapon skill and pet, it's already then getting more damage dealt as a result of barding.

Provocation is one of the most powerful skills in the game, as is the mastery.

A bard/tamer/archer (or warrior) combo absolutely owned generals in the invasions.  Why?  Provoke spawn onto general, pet attacks and tanks, and warrior skill dealt damage.  That's three+ sources of damage dealt.  Same is true for champ spawn bosses.

Frankly fellas I think you should ignore him if you're that frustrated. Please do not take this as me being rude but it's just becoming a bit much?

And Paiwan to your point about the buffs I agree they are more useful than players give them credit. But the original point of the thread was discussion of the ineffectiveness of provocation. Imagine if one of those songs made it so you never failed a provoke or a discord. -That- would be worth something. 

Jepeth said:

Frankly fellas I think you should ignore him if you're that frustrated. Please do not take this as me being rude but it's just becoming a bit much?

And Paiwan to your point about the buffs I agree they are more useful than players give them credit. But the original point of the thread was discussion of the ineffectiveness of provocation. Imagine if one of those songs made it so you never failed a provoke or a discord. -That- would be worth something. 

Im just saying the devs turn it off for many of these events.  Hell I made a thread the first time this was done. Before this forum existed.  They must have a reason.  I accepted it.

I mean, I agree. Nothing in the game is here by happenstance. But I like these forums because we can all discuss and debate changes and additions in a venue that we know they read. Not to speak for the developers but just because they had a reason however many years ago you made that thread doesn't mean they aren't still interested in our feedback and ideas. Or at least I hope that's the case!

As they say, just doing something because that's how we've always done it is a poor reason not to discuss ways to improve. 

Maybe a more fruitful way to look at this topic is how could they continue to intertwine bard skills with others to make those remaining three hundred points more viable for 4x120 bard. If your bard songs helped summons exist substantially longer. I'd love to see a return of the enticement ability in such a way that using provoke I could move my RC towards the direction I want it to go.

We should let the cook kill and BBQ the monsters in Deceit... each meal earn points to get a drop. 😂

Seth said:

We should let the cook kill and BBQ the monsters in Deceit... each meal earn points to get a drop. 😂

I guess that it is a bit far fetching to compare a skill like cooking or Camping, for that matter, to skills like those for a Bard....

A fully rounded Bard, is an investment in 480 skill points, 120 x Musicianship, Provocation, Peacemaking and Discordance.

And for a fully Rounded Rogue, it is even worse !

At 120 Stealing, 100 Snooping, 100 Hiding, 100 Lockpicking, 100 Detect Hidden, 100 Remove trap and one should also consider some Ninjitsu, there is some templates which, if one wants to respect their Role fully and not just use bits and pieces of them, pretty much leave no room for anything else...

Such Templates, fully rounded around their meant Role, should, to my opinion, be considered fully playable standalone Templates and be able to get drops and items just as like other Fighting Templates.

That is why I was proposing the idea of some "Super Masteries" whereas, if a Template had many skills all connected to that Role (like around 500 if not more Role related REAL skill points invested in the Template), they would get extra benefits from that enabling those Template to make a fully standalone playable Template on par with Fighting Templates.

We have 0 Magery Weapons, and spells like in Mysticism (Animated Weapon) whereas a spellcaster can actually use other skills related to their Role and still get fighting capabilities....

Why, for example, couldn't such a Super Mastery get the same done for a Rogue or a Bard where, if they had a sufficient "real" skills related to their Rogue or Bard role, they could get to wield a Weapon and effectively fight as a Fighter could thus enabling them to be a standalone character fully capable to get their drops just like Fighting characters can ?

Jepeth said:

 using provoke I could move my RC towards the direction I want it to go.

Have you tried?  I regularly use provoke to direct EVs onto the creature I want them to attack. 

My 4 x 120 bard can quite happily do mini champs in the Abyss, harvest Exodus keys in that dungeon and solo all but the belfry in Shadowguard. Belfry we do as a group at the same time as we do the roof, because most of the other char types can't solo that either. 

But.  Horses for courses. She can't do everything, and that's why we have several character slots, to make different characters for different situations. 
I could see an argument for popps' assertions if we were restricted to one character, but we're not. (Siege excepted)

This not a 'one size fits all' game, never has been and isn't intended to be. Play the right character type for the situation.

I have a thief - she steals things, she doesn't expect to get drops from fighting.  When I take her after Exodus keys she gets them from Zealots and hidden boxes. 

Petra_Fyde said:

Jepeth said:

 using provoke I could move my RC towards the direction I want it to go.

Have you tried?  I regularly use provoke to direct EVs onto the creature I want them to attack. 

My 4 x 120 bard can quite happily do mini champs in the Abyss, harvest Exodus keys in that dungeon and solo all but the belfry in Shadowguard. Belfry we do as a group at the same time as we do the roof, because most of the other char types can't solo that either. 

But.  Horses for courses. She can't do everything, and that's why we have several character slots, to make different characters for different situations. 
I could see an argument for popps' assertions if we were restricted to one character, but we're not. (Siege excepted)

This not a 'one size fits all' game, never has been and isn't intended to be. Play the right character type for the situation.

I have a thief - she steals things, she doesn't expect to get drops from fighting.  When I take her after Exodus keys she gets them from Zealots and hidden boxes. 

But.  Horses for courses. She can't do everything, and that's why we have several character slots, to make different characters for different situations. 
I could see an argument for popps' assertions if we were restricted to one character, but we're not. (Siege excepted)

But then, why don't we get "new" content that Templates "other" then fighting characters are more fit to participate to ?

I mean, Event after Event it is always the same old same old..... fighters, kills, fighters, kills and some more fighters and some more kills....

And guess what types of Templates are most fit for these Event after Event after Event ?

Fighting Templates....

And so, all other types of Templates keep "missing out" on new content and new Events....

I am saying either of the 2....

Either make the other Templates be capable to likewise participate to Events tailored for Fighing OR, bring on New Events that are specifically tailored for Templates who are NOT focused on fighting....

There is a whole lot of players in Ultima Online who enjoy playing Templates "other" then fighters and Sampires or their variations of....

Ok
1.. this is not about drops i have gotten them with every template i have tried
2. this is not about Bards needing to be changed (although i could offer several great ideas for this)
this is about provo not working correctly in an event area it was a BUG reported in testing and never fixed i simply want it to work correctly in the next event.......

Petra_Fyde said:

Jepeth said:

 using provoke I could move my RC towards the direction I want it to go.

Have you tried?  I regularly use provoke to direct EVs onto the creature I want them to attack. 

I have but in my experience even with 120 provoke I don't get consistent results. What I'd like to see instead of simply using provoke is an expansion of the skill to return a bit of the enticement code. Hit the skill, target the mob or the summon and either select another mob for it to target OR select a tile on the ground and they move in that direction. 

And, again, I'm not suggesting that a single character should be able to do every experience in this game. But instead trying to offer ideas to expand the relative small list of things they currently are okay at to include a greater variety of things. Playing your bard at mini champs and the roof rooms sounds like a lot of fun! But you're choosing that path because it appeals to you personally, not because the bard is any better at it than another type of character. What I would like to see is more specific, individual experiences that a bard character could shine in.

This all goes back to play a template that is more effective if you want certain "stuff". Even if things were able to be provoked, the bard is going to take even longer than a tamer to get drops because you have to wait to use the skill and in that time frame someone will come kill whatever you are barding. I can already see it now... then it goes from "please allow us to bard" to "bard drops need to be increased because we can only use the skill so often" or "make bard skills have no cool down". 

@popps - you have been told probably over 100 times now that you can't expect every single template to be the same (ie. a bard is not going to get some sort of "barded blade"). You say the same thing about literally every new content that comes out; you for whatever reason decide you want to use the least effective template (I believe for the virtue tile quest unbounds you said tamers/pets should be better). Bottom line is you know by now that a sampire and a tamer are 2 of the best templates for killing and getting "stuff" so just make them (you have been posting long enough now to have made both). In the event a tamer isn't as effective switch to the sampire. End of story. 

It's unrealistic to think that a bard would get drops for just buffing players in the party bc if that were the case you would see everyone with a second EJ account trailing their sampire/tamer running bard buffs and getting double the drops. 

keven2002 said:

This all goes back to play a template that is more effective if you want certain "stuff". Even if things were able to be provoked, the bard is going to take even longer than a tamer to get drops because you have to wait to use the skill and in that time frame someone will come kill whatever you are barding. I can already see it now... then it goes from "please allow us to bard" to "bard drops need to be increased because we can only use the skill so often" or "make bard skills have no cool down". 

@ popps - you have been told probably over 100 times now that you can't expect every single template to be the same (ie. a bard is not going to get some sort of "barded blade"). You say the same thing about literally every new content that comes out; you for whatever reason decide you want to use the least effective template (I believe for the virtue tile quest unbounds you said tamers/pets should be better). Bottom line is you know by now that a sampire and a tamer are 2 of the best templates for killing and getting "stuff" so just make them (you have been posting long enough now to have made both). In the event a tamer isn't as effective switch to the sampire. End of story. 

It's unrealistic to think that a bard would get drops for just buffing players in the party bc if that were the case you would see everyone with a second EJ account trailing their sampire/tamer running bard buffs and getting double the drops. 

I am sorry, but I refuse to accept the concept that, in order to get somewhere in Ultima Online (i.e. get the "good" stuff), one HAS TO either play a Sampire (or its variations of...), or a Tamer.

One of the "assetts" of Ultima Online has always been the multitude of its Templates.

THEN, this means that the Developers should make, rather then only or mostly content that Sampires and Tamers are most efficient at, ALSO other content where "other" Templates would be most efficient at and, BEAT Sampires and Tamers at getting that high end items....

That is, rather then having over and over only "Treasures of...." Events where Sampires and Tamers get all the high end goodies because the "means" to those goodies if through bashing and killing MoBs, my opinion is that the Developers should "also" throw in other types of Events where Bards, Rogues and other types of Templates can "beat" Sampires and Tamers in getting the good stuff and not just useless deco stuff.....

This, if we want to see in Ultima Online,variability of Templates and to appease players who enjoy to play Templates other then Sampires and their variations of, or Tamers.

popps said:

keven2002 said:

This all goes back to play a template that is more effective if you want certain "stuff". Even if things were able to be provoked, the bard is going to take even longer than a tamer to get drops because you have to wait to use the skill and in that time frame someone will come kill whatever you are barding. I can already see it now... then it goes from "please allow us to bard" to "bard drops need to be increased because we can only use the skill so often" or "make bard skills have no cool down". 

@ popps - you have been told probably over 100 times now that you can't expect every single template to be the same (ie. a bard is not going to get some sort of "barded blade"). You say the same thing about literally every new content that comes out; you for whatever reason decide you want to use the least effective template (I believe for the virtue tile quest unbounds you said tamers/pets should be better). Bottom line is you know by now that a sampire and a tamer are 2 of the best templates for killing and getting "stuff" so just make them (you have been posting long enough now to have made both). In the event a tamer isn't as effective switch to the sampire. End of story. 

It's unrealistic to think that a bard would get drops for just buffing players in the party bc if that were the case you would see everyone with a second EJ account trailing their sampire/tamer running bard buffs and getting double the drops. 

I am sorry, but I refuse to accept the concept that, in order to get somewhere in Ultima Online (i.e. get the "good" stuff), one HAS TO either play a Sampire (or its variations of...), or a Tamer.

One of the "assetts" of Ultima Online has always been the multitude of its Templates.

THEN, this means that the Developers should make, rather then only or mostly content that Sampires and Tamers are most efficient at, ALSO other content where "other" Templates would be most efficient at and, BEAT Sampires and Tamers at getting that high end items....

That is, rather then having over and over only "Treasures of...." Events where Sampires and Tamers get all the high end goodies because the "means" to those goodies if through bashing and killing MoBs, my opinion is that the Developers should "also" throw in other types of Events where Bards, Rogues and other types of Templates can "beat" Sampires and Tamers in getting the good stuff and not just useless deco stuff.....

This, if we want to see in Ultima Online,variability of Templates and to appease players who enjoy to play Templates other then Sampires and their variations of, or Tamers.

So, what content would melee fighters or tamers be not good at?  Go ahead tell us.

@Pawain crafting? So the bid turn in from... oh wait, someone else can fill it for them.

Pawain said:

popps said:

keven2002 said:

This all goes back to play a template that is more effective if you want certain "stuff". Even if things were able to be provoked, the bard is going to take even longer than a tamer to get drops because you have to wait to use the skill and in that time frame someone will come kill whatever you are barding. I can already see it now... then it goes from "please allow us to bard" to "bard drops need to be increased because we can only use the skill so often" or "make bard skills have no cool down". 

@ popps - you have been told probably over 100 times now that you can't expect every single template to be the same (ie. a bard is not going to get some sort of "barded blade"). You say the same thing about literally every new content that comes out; you for whatever reason decide you want to use the least effective template (I believe for the virtue tile quest unbounds you said tamers/pets should be better). Bottom line is you know by now that a sampire and a tamer are 2 of the best templates for killing and getting "stuff" so just make them (you have been posting long enough now to have made both). In the event a tamer isn't as effective switch to the sampire. End of story. 

It's unrealistic to think that a bard would get drops for just buffing players in the party bc if that were the case you would see everyone with a second EJ account trailing their sampire/tamer running bard buffs and getting double the drops. 

I am sorry, but I refuse to accept the concept that, in order to get somewhere in Ultima Online (i.e. get the "good" stuff), one HAS TO either play a Sampire (or its variations of...), or a Tamer.

One of the "assetts" of Ultima Online has always been the multitude of its Templates.

THEN, this means that the Developers should make, rather then only or mostly content that Sampires and Tamers are most efficient at, ALSO other content where "other" Templates would be most efficient at and, BEAT Sampires and Tamers at getting that high end items....

That is, rather then having over and over only "Treasures of...." Events where Sampires and Tamers get all the high end goodies because the "means" to those goodies if through bashing and killing MoBs, my opinion is that the Developers should "also" throw in other types of Events where Bards, Rogues and other types of Templates can "beat" Sampires and Tamers in getting the good stuff and not just useless deco stuff.....

This, if we want to see in Ultima Online,variability of Templates and to appease players who enjoy to play Templates other then Sampires and their variations of, or Tamers.

So, what content would melee fighters or tamers be not good at?  Go ahead tell us.

Aside that Bards, just as one example possible, CAN be used with fighting, perhaps content where fighting is not required might be content where Sampires and Tamers would not be "the" choice ?

Unfortunately, it seems that, Event after Event, it is all about fighting.... and ONLY about fighting....

I did just fine with my Paladin in Deceit.  I did not like how my Sampire had to run off to heal.

To stay on Bards for Mariah.  Like others said, it is too slow to kill things with a bard when any other template can run up and 1 hit the whole screen full.  They cant make provoke insta kill stuff, the mobs are fighting with their AI.  I tried my Mystic thower there for a day. It was horrible, by the time I cast an RC, someone came in and killed the whole room.  And my thrower could one kill things 1 at a time.  I took off throwing and put on macing and imbued a whip and was able to get drops.  He could not kill paragon Lichs, rams or eles, but he could kill enough other stuff to get drops.

Bard is a support skill that can be used in many places. 480 points does not warrant a kill all real quick character. Could use bard songs and have made a warrior with just tactics and a weapon skill. And be at exactly 720 points.  Run the peace mastery for regens. That would clear rooms just as efficiently.

Instead of wanting to change things maybe yall could ask for advice on how to incorporate what you want to play into something that will kill fast.

I already said, The devs should let these thing be provoked but if they did, someones gonna run up and kill the whole room before the bard kills 1 thing.

I'm fine with "fixing" provo so that things can be provoked (as long as the skills align). But I disagree with the whole "bard should get the same drops as other templates".

@popps - you refuse to believe a lot of things and that's why so many things are repeated (and people get so annoyed with your post). The fact of the matter is that for this event (treasures of) which is 100% "kill as much stuff as you can and do as much damage as you can", a bard is just not the most effective template. End of story. Just accept it.

There are a few other events I have used my bard for (he has weaving too) and I've done fine because I'm hitting a single target and doing massive damage with WoD from my own buffs. That said, I didn't even bother bringing him out for Deceit because there are simply too many mobs (and people) that I cannot effectively get drops. I learned this one the first day and played as effectively as I could to maximize my drops. 

If you think Devs are going to allow a supporting char that you can 100% dual/triple client while they run behind your main char (using bard songs) and get the same amount of drops you are out of your mind. It was bad enough the EJ accounts were able to get drops from this event; we don't need 2 EJ accounts (one peace one provoke) running behind a main account and someone getting 3x the drop all because you feel like any template should get the same amount of drops.

Pawain said:

I did just fine with my Paladin in Deceit.  I did not like how my Sampire had to run off to heal.

To stay on Bards for Mariah.  Like others said, it is too slow to kill things with a bard when any other template can run up and 1 hit the whole screen full.  They cant make provoke insta kill stuff, the mobs are fighting with their AI.  I tried my Mystic thower there for a day. It was horrible, by the time I cast an RC, someone came in and killed the whole room.  And my thrower could one kill things 1 at a time.  I took off throwing and put on macing and imbued a whip and was able to get drops.  He could not kill paragon Lichs, rams or eles, but he could kill enough other stuff to get drops.

Bard is a support skill that can be used in many places. 480 points does not warrant a kill all real quick character. Could use bard songs and have made a warrior with just tactics and a weapon skill. And be at exactly 720 points.  Run the peace mastery for regens. That would clear rooms just as efficiently.

Instead of wanting to change things maybe yall could ask for advice on how to incorporate what you want to play into something that will kill fast.

I already said, The devs should let these thing be provoked but if they did, someones gonna run up and kill the whole room before the bard kills 1 thing.

They cant make provoke insta kill stuff, the mobs are fighting with their AI.  I tried my Mystic thower there for a day. It was horrible, by the time I cast an RC, someone came in and killed the whole room.  And my thrower could one kill things 1 at a time.  I took off throwing and put on macing and imbued a whip and was able to get drops.

Mysticism, as one example, as the Animated Weapon spell....

Why not create some "Super Masteries" where, if a given Template has 500+ real skill points in skills all related to a given Role, they get the ability to summon something which can fight for them and can fight damn well, on par with how efficient a Sampire or a Tamer can be ?

For example, a Bard with 120 in all 4 Bardic skills, all real skills, could be given a Super Mastery to summon something like an Animated Weapon that exists for Mysticism which would give them the exact same chances at drops that a Sampire or a Tamer could have...

And the same for a Rogue, a Rogue having all real skills in Hiding, Stealthing, Lockpicking, Snooping, Stealing, Detect Hidden and Remove Trap (maxing all of them out would need 740 skill points, by the way, when the CAP is 720, and no magery even....) would be given the ability with a Super Mastery to summon something that would fight for them and, thus, enable them to get drops just like Sampires and Tamers can...

I mean, with some ingenuity I am sure that solutions CAN be found to enable Templates OTHER then the same old same old Sampires and Tamers to participate to these Events and get drops just fine...

Norry said:

And thats why i said early on to give credit for

the healing from provo mastery

The extra damge from being discorded/disco mastery

They changed it from way back being last hit for looting rights. Just if they add more things for credit, people have more options.

I am ok getting fewer drops if i can play my favorite combat template, even if its not the best(no, i dont want crafters doing combat stuff).

I am ok getting fewer drops if i can play my favorite combat template, even if its not the best(no, i dont want crafters doing combat stuff).

Why not ?

I mean, Tinkers can already craft Golems and KOTL Automatons to fight for them.

The only problem is, that they have been made too weak.

Imagine a Tinker trying to kill stuff in Deceit with a Golem or an Automaton.... laughable....

BUT, if these crafters' fighting craftables where made way more powerfull and endurable (like a pet is) AND with an easier way to repair them and bring them back to life if killed, THEN, also crafters could participate to these fighting Events through their craftable creatures...

@popps - stay on topic or this thread will be locked.

You have 7 slots for a reason. Some are support characters. Build the best "team" you can. Not all characters, or pets, are perfect for all situations. 

Well said @jelinidas

keven2002 said:

Well said @ jelinidas

This is my last post on the argument to stay on topic.

I need to answer, as I do not think it is well said when, most of the Events being released, result over and over, being new content mainly (or exclusively) for fighting characters, with Sampires and their variations of, or Tamers, to be the ones performing the best.

My point is, that there is a whole lot of other types of Templates in Ultima Online, Bards included, and the new content and Events, should ALSO consider them as eligible templates to gather the new Rewards and not just throw out new content that is feasible mostly for Sampires and their variations of or Tamers....

Yes, there is several characters possible in an Account BUT, if new content gets most always released for always the same Templates to be the ones to best perform in it, those "other" Templates will stay to collect the dust as players will likely disregard using them if the new content forces them to always use the same old, same old Sampires and their variations of, or Tamers.

This is what I had to say on the argument so, I will not answer further posts on this topic.
Thanks.

@popps If you really want to discuss this theory please start another thread for it.

It is as simple as this; out of all the rewards from the Deceit event how many of them were things specifically for a bard/crafter/thief? This is not just a coincidence. 

So I'll reiterate one more time with the hopes that it finally sinks in. There are professions (templates) in UO for a reason. There will be some tasks certain templates are better than others. It's unrealistic to think that a non-fighting character should get the same rewards as a fighting one. Just like it's unrealistic to think a fighting character should get the same rewards as a crafter (ie BODs). Yet that is what you keep trying to say. 

There is a reason you go to a doctor for an xray and not a carpenter. Different professions (ie templates) have different uses. Accept it and move on.

You are incorrect. There are 'professions' because we recognize some skills synergize better with others. The templates on the character creation screen are suggestions at best considering you can only put major points into two skills at creation. Ultima Online has always been a game where one can mix and match skills to create different templates as opposed to games like WoW with multiple class types that are (key word here) balanced so as to be useful across a range of content.

In a thread trying to discuss ways to improve the provocation skill and bard experience we're told by a vocal few over and over that everything is hunky dory and to stop complaining.

Where does this aversion to change and improvement come from? I don't wish to be cynical but we don't need to treat every single suggestion in a zero-sum frame. Improving one range of skills (or class if you prefer) does not mean they will nerf another.

Do you think making every template receive the same drops is an improvement? I personally think it's actually watering down the game to cater to those that do not wish to learn game mechanics and want everything handed to them. 

If you read the thread from the beginning you will see @popps is inferring that a pure bard (which is outlined as 4 skills ie. 480 points) should get the same amount of drops as a 720+ skill warrior/tamer. I don't see that as an improvement. He also references crafters being viable during events like this. Please do not try to pass these off as "improvements" when it's simply making the game easier for him because he refuses to learn it.

Your frustration with Popps, deserved or otherwise, seems to be prejudicing you against all improvements. I apologize if this is a misread of your previous statement but the changes he suggests would not entirely benefit him alone. That is a virtual impossibility in a game this complex.

I have read and contributed to the thread from the beginning. My opinion on this matter hasn't much changed despite all the arguments made by you and others. Suggesting that there is an inherent difference between these two class approaches and they should not be rewarded equally is fine, but I don't agree with it. But saying 'this is the ways things are stop trying to suggest otherwise' does nothing to improve the game. 

Let us shift our perspective a minute. Treasure hunting is another class approach with a massive points expenditure. GM lockpicking, GM remove trap, GM cartography. But no one is arguing that treasure hunters must have an equal chance at getting Deceit drops. Because as an approach there exists a multitude of things they excel at doing unique to them. Crafters can find success and wealth in what they produce, there are a multitude of things they can do.

What specific, unique thing exists for bards to do? If they are to be a support class alone, fine. But without something unique for them let's have a reason to play one at something like Deceit. 

Bards are pretty much a support class. They are extremely useful and powerful in the right place (Doom/Shadowguard/Navry/Scalis/EM Events/etc/etc) with bard songs but they don't have much stand alone ability compared to other templates. On top of bard songs they can use their skills while using the bard songs with no interruption. I don't have a problem with any of that.

Where I think it's a problem is when people think that every template/class should be the same and be as effective / get the same rewards. That's where I draw the line. It's not even close to even that a bard (who could technically be AFK or following a main account) would get as many drops as a sampire would (as they spam whirlwind killing handfuls of things at once).

@Jepeth - I think many people would argue that treasure hunting and crafting are both no longer lucrative 🙂 Additionally, I could make the same argument for a thief or a ninja using stealth. These templates do about as well as a bard does with drops. If you think a bard should get more drops from something like Deceit then shouldn't the thief or ninja get more too? Why shouldn't the crafter not get as many if hes making the armor and weapons people are using the fight back? You can use that same argument with any template. At the end of the day most templates have their spots/events where they get more out of things. Such is life.

Sorry, 'such is life' isn't an effective argument for me when we are discussing a video game. We (the players) can provide meaningful feedback and ideas to the developers to enhance our game play experience. Life is messy and uncontrollable. What we're suggesting for the game is simply a matter of coding and time.

As it happens I do think ninjas and stealthing thieves need more to do. And crafters. And fishermen. And, as I think others have been trying to say during this thread, everyone that is not a fighting character. Not producing an equal amount of rewards across different class builds is your perspective to have, even if I don't agree with it. But not providing meaningful content for the other class approaches in the game that aren't tamers of sampires is unfortunate and I believe the developers could do better. You say that "most templates have their spots/events where they get more out of things" but as I asked earlier, what one event in the last two-ish years (since I've returned to the game) has provided an experience that bards alone can shine in?

Jepeth said:

You say that "most templates have their spots/events where they get more out of things" but as I asked earlier, what one event in the last two-ish years (since I've returned to the game) has provided an experience that bards alone can shine in?

Well said, very well said.

That is the point that I am trying to get through, apparently fruitlessly....

I see, Event after Event with the Deceit's Treasures of the Undead Lords only being the latest one, new content (and rewards) to be handed over to fighting characters leaving all other types of Templates just out of the window to watch....

Just like fighting characters get their content with Events where they can "shine", so to speak, because of how the Events are being Designed, I would "also" like to see new content (and Rewards) being added also for other types of Templates, for example Bards but not only Bards...

As I mentioned, one of the strong points in favour of Ultima Online has always been its variaty of Templates and playing styles yet, I keep seeing Events being thrown out where Sampires and their variations of, or Tamers, are "the" one Templates to be used as they are the ones that "shine" in these Events and in order to get the Rewards goodies....

Well, I would love to see "also" new Event content thrown out where "other" types of Templates, other then Sampires and their variations of, or Tamers, would be the ones to be used to "shine".

@Jepeth - I don't want to sound like a jerk here but you need to go back and read my post. I gave you the answer in regards to where bards shine. 

I think you have lost sight to the argument Popps made which was that a bard should have gotten the same drop rate as a sampire/tamer for Treasures of Deceit which I'm saying they shouldn't have. I've already gone over this several times so please re-read my posts for the support there. At the end of the day the fact of the matter is that there are certain templates that work better for certain events; in this case a warrior/sampire was the most effective.

That said, if you are saying in general there needs to be more stuff to do for various templates then I 100% agree there. There are many templates that should have things carved out for them in other events that are geared towards them but that's likely outside the scope of this thread.

@Kevan2002 I don't think you're sounding like a jerk at all but we're clearly not connecting on a central issue here. About where bards can shine you said: "Doom/Shadowguard/Navry/Scalis/EM Events/etc/etc)." But I was asking in what recent event within the last two years "bards alone can shine in?" All of the content you mention is older than two years with maybe the single exception being EM events. Events which bards, unfortunately, only lend themselves to the kinds of gameplay people seem to hate, namely the EJ bard on follow.

I have not lost sight of the argument Popps has made concerning bards getting as many drops as other classes. In lieu of other meaningful experiences for bards then having 'more to achieve' in the global events like Deceit would, in essence, 'give us something to do.' If turning up the rewards they could gain is objectionable to you (and you have made your point, even if I don't agree with it) then, as Mcdougle and others have suggested, instead of upping the rewards or making new bard specific content, maybe they should add a couple fun skill additions for us to level the use of a bard.

Perhaps bards can work similar to the Justice Virtues? When I "support" another player (instead of protect as in Justice), when the other player gets a drop you will get one (or grant you the same loot right) as well if they remain close for event like Treasure of. So for cases where I can't provo, doing peace / discord and their masteries also allow you get drops as a pure support role. 

Aragorn said:

Perhaps bards can work similar to the Justice Virtues? When I "support" another player (instead of protect as in Justice), when the other player gets a drop you will get one (or grant you the same loot right) as well if they remain close for event like Treasure of. So for cases where I can't provo, doing peace / discord and their masteries also allow you get drops as a pure support role. 

In shadowguard, bards in party providing area effect from peace mastery and healing, can also get a drop without attacking.

Aragorn said:

Perhaps bards can work similar to the Justice Virtues? When I "support" another player (instead of protect as in Justice), when the other player gets a drop you will get one (or grant you the same loot right) as well if they remain close for event like Treasure of. So for cases where I can't provo, doing peace / discord and their masteries also allow you get drops as a pure support role. 

Sort of like Protection works with Scrolls of Power if one is Knight of Justice ?

The only problem I see with this, is players abusing of it....

That is, players running 2 accounts or more, with a Fighter to kill stuff, and their own Bard or Bards "on tail" running Masteries to then end up with double or triple, if not more, of the drops they would get with their Fighter alone...

It needs to be something which makes it so that a Bard needs to be "actively" played by a player and not be possible to be played "multi-accounts" along with one's own Fighting character....

Seth said:

Aragorn said:

Perhaps bards can work similar to the Justice Virtues? When I "support" another player (instead of protect as in Justice), when the other player gets a drop you will get one (or grant you the same loot right) as well if they remain close for event like Treasure of. So for cases where I can't provo, doing peace / discord and their masteries also allow you get drops as a pure support role. 

In shadowguard, bards in party providing area effect from peace mastery and healing, can also get a drop without attacking.

yah, similar approach can be applied to these events then

When I hunt with my bard in a group I use provo or peace masteries, when I hunt alone with her I use discord masteries. I provo 2 mobs, discord one and then use both discord masteries on it. They do significant damage. The first mob dies and I provo the remaining one onto the next target and repeat the process. Sometimes I use EVs and provo them onto the mob.  Discord masteries do significant damage. I particular noticed the effect of tribulation when firing cannons at the beacon lighthouses.
In my opinion the one thing I'd really like changed is the delay timer, a little shorter please, and yes, I agree with the OP, the number of mobs that are immune to my song. Nothing so frustrating as getting the message 'you cannot incite that'. 

Having said that, some of those 'immune' creatures can't be provo'd, peaced or disco'd, but they will succumb to despair and tribulation.

Petra_Fyde said:

When I hunt with my bard in a group I use provo or peace masteries, when I hunt alone with her I use discord masteries. I provo 2 mobs, discord one and then use both discord masteries on it. They do significant damage. The first mob dies and I provo the remaining one onto the next target and repeat the process. Sometimes I use EVs and provo them onto the mob.  Discord masteries do significant damage. I particular noticed the effect of tribulation when firing cannons at the beacon lighthouses.
In my opinion the one thing I'd really like changed is the delay timer, a little shorter please, and yes, I agree with the OP, the number of mobs that are immune to my song. Nothing so frustrating as getting the message 'you cannot incite that'. 

Having said that, some of those 'immune' creatures can't be provo'd, peaced or disco'd, but they will succumb to despair and tribulation.

Sure, Bards can kill stuff, the one big problem though, is that they are way too slow, as compared to other types of Templates, in getting MoBs killed....

Hence, when these Events come up, hardly anyone uses a Bard, since that would way slow down their chance at drops and, consequentially, at Rewards.

Result is, that Bards remain largely unused throughout these Events.

I think that this is what needs to be looked up and adjusted, the efficiency for Bards to be able to get MoBs killed....

Now, if a Bard with the full set of Bardic skills (120 x 4 = 480 real skills) was to be made able to use Bardic skills on Paragons and tougher MoBs, that "could" make things different as, this way, the Bard, through using Provocation, Discordance and Peacemaking songs could use the Paragons as his/her Weapon and get stuff killed and get drops....

And, most importantly, it would be a character that would have to be "actively" played, and not scripted...

I mean, the player playing the Bard would have to react fast with peacemaking songs to stop being attacked and right away use Provocation songs on multiple MoBs to get them fight as well as Discordance to speed up the kills....

I doubt seriously that anyone could script all that, too many variables... therefore, it would be a Bard who can kill, possibly as good as Sampires and their variations of or Tamers, and thus be able to be "on par" to get drops at these Events, but would have to be manually controlled by a player who'd have to be "at the keyboard" to actively man it....

You are way to obsessed with 'scripting', and if you in any way imply that I 'script' my bard, or any other character I shall be seriously offended. No software with the ability to 'script' uo in a way unintended by developers has ever been loaded onto my pc. Oh, and I play in EC, which does not have the 'follow' capability

Bards need:
1. a shorter delay between skill uses, or even no delay if using a different skill, so that there may be a delay between provo attempts, but not between provo and disco for example
2. less unbardable mobs. 

Killing things quickly can be achieved, when discord and provo work, by use of the mentioned discord masteries and summoned creatures. All bards have some supplementary skill, mine has magery. Her full template is Music, discord, provocation, peacemaking, magery, meditation. All at 120 real skill.

My Bard got plenty of drops 120 mystic/focus running the provo mastery using slayer books and instruments i did plenty of damage the whole point of this thread was asking that my skill provocation worked as intended nothing more...

Petra_Fyde said:

You are way to obsessed with 'scripting', and if you in any way imply that I 'script' my bard, or any other character I shall be seriously offended. No software with the ability to 'script' uo in a way unintended by developers has ever been loaded onto my pc. Oh, and I play in EC, which does not have the 'follow' capability

Bards need:
1. a shorter delay between skill uses, or even no delay if using a different skill, so that there may be a delay between provo attempts, but not between provo and disco for example
2. less unbardable mobs. 

Killing things quickly can be achieved, when discord and provo work, by use of the mentioned discord masteries and summoned creatures. All bards have some supplementary skill, mine has magery. Her full template is Music, discord, provocation, peacemaking, magery, meditation. All at 120 real skill.

Of course not !!

I was just saying, in generic terms, that there needs to be particular attention to what way Bards would be enpowered in their ability to help kill stuff and get drops themselves, because there is scripts out there and some players using them...

In no way I was suggesting anyone in particular using scripts, it was only generical.

As Bards play out now, with their Masteries, they can be used on a secondary account to "buff up" one's own main Fighting character. And some players also have the ability to script up this Bard follower so as to adjust their Mastery depending on the whatever need of the moment that their Fighter might have. Now, if Bards where to be made more effective, but not in a way that would make it not realistically possible to script them, I imagine that players would abuse of them working with 2 accounts, one a Fighter and another a Bard and double their drops.....

So, I am all for making Bards more effective but only if the playing of that more effective Bard requires a player to actually control it being at the keyboard, and not through some script, however complex it might be.

It was nothing directed at anyone, just talking in general terms.
Sorry if I was misunderstood.

McDougle said:

My Bard got plenty of drops 120 mystic/focus running the provo mastery using slayer books and instruments i did plenty of damage the whole point of this thread was asking that my skill provocation worked as intended nothing more...

Yes, unfortunately you have certain people that used that as a spring board for their own desire to water the game down and make things easy for them so that they don't have to put as much effort into things as others

keven2002 said:

McDougle said:

My Bard got plenty of drops 120 mystic/focus running the provo mastery using slayer books and instruments i did plenty of damage the whole point of this thread was asking that my skill provocation worked as intended nothing more...

Yes, unfortunately you have certain people that used that as a spring board for their own desire to water the game down and make things easy for them so that they don't have to put as much effort into things as others

Seriously ?

How many Bards have we seen on our respective Shards or on any other Shard, for that matter, into Deceit for the Treasures of the Undead Lords Event, and how many Sampires and their variations of or Tamers have we seen ?

I do not seem to recall having seen any Bard.... I have seen a few Tamers and a whole lot of Sampires, Paladins, Archers and fighters in general. I think I have seen 1 Mystic/Mage but he/she did not seem to be having much luck in killing targets as fast as Fighters were able to...

I have seen Fighters killing Paragons Lich Lords in just a few hits, the only 1 Paragon they were usually running from was the Paragon Ram until a tamer came to tank it and then they took it down in little time.... of course, earning way more looting rights as the tamer as they were able to do way, but way more damage then any pet....

There is no Agenda here, only a genuine desire to see all types of Templates be enabled to participate, as much equally as possible, to these "Treasures of...." types of Events which, I understand, will be the main form of new content that Ultima Online will be getting, at least as I understood and please, correct me if I got it wrongly....

Like it or not, the Fighter template (melee or ranged), because of the items and the properties being available, is capable of delivering some massive damage, so much damage, that hardly any pet can compete with, forget about a Bard or a Spellcaster....

Most spellcasters, for obvious reasons, use Protection.... well, ever seen how many hits can a Fighter (Dexer or Ranged is the same) deliver in the time that a spelllcaster is casting their spell ?

At 1.25 swinging, a Fighter over the time span of a fight can absolutely obliterate the damage that a spellcaster, or that a Tamer can do.. forget about what damage a Bard can do....

No, it is not about any Agenda, it is only about seeing a more equal footing among the various Templates in Ultima Online when it comes to participate to Events, get drops and then, consequentially, Rewards.

That's at least how I see it.

I see it as you should build a effing sampire if you feel that's the way of the game from now on. Krampus will be out soon, my tamer with provo is awesome against those minions. I don't run him that way year round...i adapt!

McDougle said:

My Bard got plenty of drops 120 mystic/focus running the provo mastery using slayer books and instruments i did plenty of damage the whole point of this thread was asking that my skill provocation worked as intended nothing more...

And that was answered.  The new dungeons have all been made so that the mobs can not be provoked.  Working as intended.  Just like the new epaulets are working as intended by not transmogrifying. Provoke worked at the Black Gate.  

We may not like the decisions the devs make, but we have to adapt around them.

jelinidas said:

I see it as you should build a effing sampire if you feel that's the way of the game from now on. Krampus will be out soon, my tamer with provo is awesome against those minions. I don't run him that way year round...i adapt!

Yes you love having Bards around those annoying minions!