Crafting ideas

Reforging has been trumped by Legendary Artifacts.  These drops are completely random though and sometimes leave the owner wanting different properties.

What if we added in a couple of items, such as the whetstone of enervation that will add and remove properties from items?

For example:

An item that, when used on a piece of armor, has a chance to remove a property.  Maybe do it like refinements where you can select what you want to remove and there's a chance based on your Blacksmithing or Tailoring level (whatever is applicable)

Another item that will add a property, if there is room, with chances to be the property the owner wants to be based on their skill level again.  Maybe if they are 50 Blacksmithing and they use the item and want to add Intelligence, it'll add 5 whereas if they had 120 Blacksmithing it would add 8.

This would give crafters a little more excitement with chances to craft gear tailored to what they want.  You could add chances to fail and succeed, chances for intensities, maybe rare chances to add something unique like HCI.

The items could be obtainable in the same fashion the whetstones of enervation are.  Maybe even have a cooldown on usage.

It's whatever you want it to be I would just like the idea of chance-based item customization.  There's room to be as strict as you want to be with how the item is used.

Even if I had just a small chance to remove Stamina Regeneration and add Mana Regeneration to an item, this would make a lot of players buy new gear they weren't interested in the past knowing they have the possibility to alter it into something they can use.

PLEASE POST YOUR REASON WHETHER YOU LIKE THE IDEA OR NOT

Interesting, I read to the end and didn’t come across the “crafting idea”. All this does is make Legendaries even more appealing. 

Crafting weights need to be improved. Splintering needs to be imbuable (at least to 20).

Xris said:

Crafting weights need to be improved. Splintering needs to be imbuable (at least to 20).

agree, also reforgable

sibble said:

Xris said:

Crafting weights need to be improved. Splintering needs to be imbuable (at least to 20).

agree, also reforgable

What they said. 

Imbuing also needs SSI added for jewels. Let us craft up to major artifact level at 120 skill. This would allow for optimization to more advanced characters and allow less advanced to better compete. Legendaries would still be the high end gear. 

Sometimes I'm glad the devs don't read much here.

 😂 

WornOutYourTool said:

Sometimes I'm glad the devs don't read much here.

Well, it's people like you who make reading these forums useless.

You've added nothing to the conversation, no insight, not even an opinion, just a comment to insinuate that this thread isn't worth reading.  Nothing you've said adds any value to the thread.

Trolling without moderation is pretty much what I've come to expect from both official and non-official (Stratics) forums.

While I agree crafting needs to be made relevant again, many of the suggestions here swing the pendulum too far in the other directions where crafting would be on par/better than obtaining legendaries (which I disagree with). In doing so, it would further perpetuate the issue with majority of the dungeons/monsters NOT being hunted. 

While I'd like to see perhaps the high end runics have some use added to actually using them for crafting again, realistically that's tough because this would just empower the scripters to run crafting scripts 24/7 for the runics to monopolize the market. 

I think the thing that would most help crafted items get closer to legendary (but still keep the divide) would be to bump up total property weight on exceptional items by 50pts or so. This would allow a little more modded weight without going overboard. That said, things like splinter/SSI should remain as they are as they some of the most sought out properties that people should have to work for (like they do now).

keven2002 said:

While I agree crafting needs to be made relevant again, many of the suggestions here swing the pendulum too far in the other directions where crafting would be on par/better than obtaining legendaries (which I disagree with).

From what I've read, people have made these suggestions:
- Adding items that remove and add a property from a piece of armor/weapon
- Adding properties to be imbueable that weren't imbueable before

Neither of those suggestions deals with item weight, meaning hunting mobs would still be the only place to obtain legendaries.  My original suggestion was to be able to alter legendaries, in which case the method of obtaining legendaries would not change.

Unless there's something I missed, can you give an example where any of the suggestions in this thread would make crafting "on par/better than obtaining legendaries"?

keven2002 said:

While I'd like to see perhaps the high end runics have some use added to actually using them for crafting again, realistically that's tough because this would just empower the scripters to run crafting scripts 24/7 for the runics to monopolize the market. 

There are already people who script killing mobs.  Absolutely anything added to this game can and will be scripted.  That shouldn't prevent us from getting new features added to the game.

keven2002 said:

I think the thing that would most help crafted items get closer to legendary (but still keep the divide) would be to bump up total property weight on exceptional items by 50pts or so. This would allow a little more modded weight without going overboard. That said, things like splinter/SSI should remain as they are as they some of the most sought out properties that people should have to work for (like they do now).

Couple things here... I don't really have an opinion on imbuing SSI/Splinter, I'm leaning towards that should be something that drops off mobs and not imbueable just to keep things a little unique so I agree with you there.  I'm not against increasing weight for imbueing either.

I'm more for loot customization with a reasonable cost.

Norry said:

So currently, we can onky imbue 5 properties onto items, allow us to boost that to 7 with what i suggested. Allow us to imbue higher intensities on items than we currently can.

Allowing that still means mobs drop 8 property items+(for some reason resists do and do not count for looted gear), but brings crafting into line. It will burn through resources, and we can even incorporate a gold sink.

I understand needing both to be viable.

I agree. Raising the properties to 7, along with adding 150-200 points to the "max imbuing weight",
 would bring crafted items CLOSE to Legendary artifacts, making crafting viable again, while keeping Legendaries at the "top"!

I think this would be an excellent solution. @Bleak @Kyronix

keven2002 said:

While I agree crafting needs to be made relevant again, many of the suggestions here swing the pendulum too far in the other directions where crafting would be on par/better than obtaining legendaries (which I disagree with). In doing so, it would further perpetuate the issue with majority of the dungeons/monsters NOT being hunted. 

While I'd like to see perhaps the high end runics have some use added to actually using them for crafting again, realistically that's tough because this would just empower the scripters to run crafting scripts 24/7 for the runics to monopolize the market. 

I think the thing that would most help crafted items get closer to legendary (but still keep the divide) would be to bump up total property weight on exceptional items by 50pts or so. This would allow a little more modded weight without going overboard. That said, things like splinter/SSI should remain as they are as they some of the most sought out properties that people should have to work for (like they do now).

I need to disagree with your stance on crafting (that it needs be ALWAYS kept inferior to looted items...).

What would be the point of working and spending time on crafting if then, a Crafted item could never EVER, by Design, be able to match a Looted item ?

People tend to get the best item they can use, not to settle on average ones...

Having a Crafting limited in the quality of items which people can craft as compared to items which people can loot, would simply mean people disregarding Crafting althougether (as it happens now saved a few, much limited exceptions like the Crafting of Weapons and 190 Luck pieces) and thus make Crafters pretty much unplayable...

My stance on crafting is instead different.

I am of the opinion to make Crafted items be at the very least on par with looted items BUT, make the crafting process one that is work and time intensive, CANNOT BE SCRIPTED, and one which would actually take a player to sit at the keyboard and spend their time in the game Crafting, and not doing anything else....

This way, if Crafting was not possible to be scripted, and it was a complex process to Learn and Master, and time consuming, chances are that a lot of people would not want to get into it and would, instead, ask for the services of knowledged and experienced Crafters who could then sell their wares in the game once again....

Also, by making the Crafting process a complex one, time consuming to Learn and to Master, and also time consuming to actually make items in Ultima Online, if not scriptable, players would simply leave crafting entirely to those other players willing to actually PLAY a Crafter in Ultima Online and, thus, we would no longer see MULES in Ultima Online, that is, Crafting Templates only used to support one's own needs in game... Crafting would again become a Template that players were to play as their MAIN, and not as a "Mule" character merely to support the needs of their Fighting characters...

THIS, is what I'd like to see in Ultima Online, my hope is that the Developers, @Bleak, @Kyronix , will make an effort to make Crafting in Ultima Online make a come back as it once was, many Years ago, when crafting was actually a MAIN playing profession, and not simply a "Mule" character to have and play aside of one's own Fighter....

KHAN said:

Norry said:

So currently, we can onky imbue 5 properties onto items, allow us to boost that to 7 with what i suggested. Allow us to imbue higher intensities on items than we currently can.

Allowing that still means mobs drop 8 property items+(for some reason resists do and do not count for looted gear), but brings crafting into line. It will burn through resources, and we can even incorporate a gold sink.

I understand needing both to be viable.

I agree. Raising the properties to 7, along with adding 150-200 points to the "max imbuing weight",
 would bring crafted items CLOSE to Legendary artifacts, making crafting viable again, while keeping Legendaries at the "top"!

I think this would be an excellent solution. @ Bleak @ Kyronix

If Looted items will always be kept as better as compared to crafted items, people would STILL disregard crafted items and go for Legendaries instead...

Why would people want to settle for "lesser" crafted items if they can get and use better Legendaries items instead ?

Maintaining looted items as better to crafted items would keep Crafting to remain to languish as it is now, to my opinion.

No, I am convinced that the only one way to make Crafting make a come back in Ultima Online, is to permit Crafted items to be at least on par with Looted items because players tend, understandably, to go for their BEST option, not for lesser ones....

Of course, then, in order to not have all items be always crafted, THEN the entire Crafting process should be made hard and time consuming enough so that most players would not want to bother with it thus leaving it only to those players willing to spend their in game time entirely or mostly on it....

If there is one thing that I always hated and that I think killed crafting in Ultima Online, is Crafters being used as "Mules" and, thus, not played as "Main" characters but only to support one's own Fighting Characters needs....

This has made people self sufficient and no longer needing to resort onto other players for their crafting needs. Crafters would not sell anything to others as a consequence...

If, instead, Crafting was made a complex and difficult process to learn and really Master (at least to make the really good, high end stuff), NOT SCRIPTABLE, and time consuming so that players would actually need to spend their time in game at their keyboard, doing crafting and not else, chances are that most players would not want to bother with it and, THUS, they would resort to other players willing to play a Crafter as their Main character in Ultima Online, for their Services...

THIS, I think, would make Crafting make that come back in Ultima Online which it deserves.... to make Crafting once again what it was in the early Ultima Online....

Leaving aside any comments on trying to turn our playtime into work

To my mind the main difference between crafted items and loot is 'control'. Many of my characters wear mixed suits of looted and imbued armour, because with imbuing I have the control to fill in the gaps. Both my sword fighter and my archer use totally crafted weapons, because I have the control over what properties I put on them.

The idea of more items like whetstones to give an element of control over properties on looted items interests me, with the usual symbiosis of characters in UO I would make them obtained by hunters but only able to be applied by crafters.  We can remove damage increase from weapons, but I despair of how many jewels have both damage increase and spell damage increase on them I want one or the other, but never both. I would like to be able to remove one.

I play both crafters and warriors in UO, depending entirely on my mood. But my crafters are not 'mules'. @popps you miss the point. Yes the crafters support the warriors, but in turn the warriors support the crafters by obtaining resources for them. 

Well said Petra.  Same here

sibble said:

WornOutYourTool said:

Sometimes I'm glad the devs don't read much here.

Well, it's people like you who make reading these forums useless.

You've added nothing to the conversation, no insight, not even an opinion, just a comment to insinuate that this thread isn't worth reading.  Nothing you've said adds any value to the thread.

Trolling without moderation is pretty much what I've come to expect from both official and non-official (Stratics) forums.

Lol, you want to take what I said personally and pretend like you're the center of the universe.  Sure, ill address you directly then and add to the "conversation".

Your "crafting" idea is basically the addition and removal of mage armor by npc's except you want to pick and choose whatever you'd like, in my opinion because you may not know how to manipulate this with reforging. 

You want splintering to be a reforge option.  Why? Gating good splinters as a rare find prevents pvp from turning into a further hell hole.  Id get a laugh out of flooding the market with cheap infinitely repairable god splinter weapons and reading the fallout here.  Might as well make bonebreaker imbuable too.

Get off the high horse, go read any of the other crafting idea threads for my opinion on a balanced way to improve the crafting system before starting yet another.   

@popps - your reputation proceeds your post so I won't comment too much about how it wouldn't make sense. Just know that we shouldn't be giving players automatic "God-mode" tools - i.e. players shouldn't be able to craft "Legendary" items because if that were the case any crafter could create an entire suit without setting foot in a dungeon and in reality these "Legendary" items would become "Common". 

@sibble - As mentioned by another person, you didn't really give crafting ideas as the thread name (crafting ideas) suggest. I was disagreeing with the refinement idea for properties on legendary items (as this is altering and not really crafting) because as I mentioned to popps, the end result of this change shouldn't be to make almost any piece "God mode" (things would become very boring at that point)... we play the game and the proper content to acquire those elite legendaries and that should remain the same.

That said, my suggestion about my crafting idea would be that when using something like a valorite runic hammer to make an item (ie a blacksmith uses it for 1 charge to CRAFT a weapon) the mods that would randomly be added (as they are now) would follow similar logic to how the legendary items are spawned with a combination of mods that share the same synergy (ie Mana leech / stam leech / life leech together) while also using an appropriate property weight (ie valorite would allow property weight to be slightly over cap).

My second suggestion was to just slightly increase the max weight (around 50 points) to give slightly more weights but nothing crazy (like someone said add 2 more properties and 200 more weight). This would allow a slight bump and allow people to craft things (and reforge/imbue) for a target specific item while also not overpowering things to the point of making legendary items trash.

Petra_Fyde said:

Leaving aside any comments on trying to turn our playtime into work

To my mind the main difference between crafted items and loot is 'control'. Many of my characters wear mixed suits of looted and imbued armour, because with imbuing I have the control to fill in the gaps. Both my sword fighter and my archer use totally crafted weapons, because I have the control over what properties I put on them.

The idea of more items like whetstones to give an element of control over properties on looted items interests me, with the usual symbiosis of characters in UO I would make them obtained by hunters but only able to be applied by crafters.  We can remove damage increase from weapons, but I despair of how many jewels have both damage increase and spell damage increase on them I want one or the other, but never both. I would like to be able to remove one.

I play both crafters and warriors in UO, depending entirely on my mood. But my crafters are not 'mules'. @ popps you miss the point. Yes the crafters support the warriors, but in turn the warriors support the crafters by obtaining resources for them. 

If Fighters are made capable to have and use Crafters to support their Fighters' needs, well, then to my viewing they do are mules....

And this "self-sufficiency" does kill Crafting because the reason for a Crafter to exist is to make things and sell them....

But if Crafting is made easy, chances are that any and all Fighters would have their own Crafter and make things for their Fighters so, if I may ask, to whom would then those players willing to make Crafting as their MAIN playing style, be able to sell their wares, when the rest of players will have their own "Mules" to use to support their Fighters' needs ?

They would simply not have a market to jiustify their effort in Crafting as a Main playing style.

Sorry, but while you are talking about "patching up" Crafting with some small changes here and some small changes there, I am talking about something entirely different....

I am talking about making Crafting in Ultima Online great again, a reason for players to only or mostly play a Crafter because their work will be unique, wanted by other players who will not want to make Crafters because too hard, too complex or too time consuming and would thus resort to the hired services of Crafters for their Fighters' needs and not simply develop a Crafter of their own to use as a "mule" to their Fighter....

That is at least how I see it.

keven2002 said:

@ popps - your reputation proceeds your post so I won't comment too much about how it wouldn't make sense. Just know that we shouldn't be giving players automatic "God-mode" tools - i.e. players shouldn't be able to craft "Legendary" items because if that were the case any crafter could create an entire suit without setting foot in a dungeon and in reality these "Legendary" items would become "Common". 

@ sibble - As mentioned by another person, you didn't really give crafting ideas as the thread name (crafting ideas) suggest. I was disagreeing with the refinement idea for properties on legendary items (as this is altering and not really crafting) because as I mentioned to popps, the end result of this change shouldn't be to make almost any piece "God mode" (things would become very boring at that point)... we play the game and the proper content to acquire those elite legendaries and that should remain the same.

That said, my suggestion about my crafting idea would be that when using something like a valorite runic hammer to make an item (ie a blacksmith uses it for 1 charge to CRAFT a weapon) the mods that would randomly be added (as they are now) would follow similar logic to how the legendary items are spawned with a combination of mods that share the same synergy (ie Mana leech / stam leech / life leech together) while also using an appropriate property weight (ie valorite would allow property weight to be slightly over cap).

My second suggestion was to just slightly increase the max weight (around 50 points) to give slightly more weights but nothing crazy (like someone said add 2 more properties and 200 more weight). This would allow a slight bump and allow people to craft things (and reforge/imbue) for a target specific item while also not overpowering things to the point of making legendary items trash.

i.e. players shouldn't be able to craft "Legendary" items because if that were the case any crafter could create an entire suit without setting foot in a dungeon and in reality these "Legendary" items would become "Common". 

Not really, if Crafting was to be made a complex and time consuming process that only a few would be wanting to invest time and study to master AND was to be made not scriptable I do not see how being able to craft Legendary quality pieces would impact at all their availability....

Making a piece comparable to Legendary quality would need to be a complex, laborious and time consuming process which would deter the "casual Crafter" from even wanting to attempt doing it and would ensure work and a market to those players who really want to mainly play a Crafter in Ultima Online, NOT a Fighter....

As in regards to crafted Legendary items being common, what about "Looted" Legendary items ?

Just log on Atlantic, type in the word "Legendary" in Vendor Search and see how many there are...

And those, are ONLY the ones showing up for sale, multiply by hundreds of folds for those which players have in their secure containers or Bank Boxes and one might have a rough idea whether "looted" Legendaries might or not be ALREADY much common....

And Crafting, especially if made a complex, laborious (i.e. requiring study and mind work to be mastered) and time consuming process would make them common ?

Excuse me ?

keven2002 said:

@ popps - your reputation proceeds your post so I won't comment too much about how it wouldn't make sense. Just know that we shouldn't be giving players automatic "God-mode" tools - i.e. players shouldn't be able to craft "Legendary" items because if that were the case any crafter could create an entire suit without setting foot in a dungeon and in reality these "Legendary" items would become "Common". 

@ sibble - As mentioned by another person, you didn't really give crafting ideas as the thread name (crafting ideas) suggest. I was disagreeing with the refinement idea for properties on legendary items (as this is altering and not really crafting) because as I mentioned to popps, the end result of this change shouldn't be to make almost any piece "God mode" (things would become very boring at that point)... we play the game and the proper content to acquire those elite legendaries and that should remain the same.

That said, my suggestion about my crafting idea would be that when using something like a valorite runic hammer to make an item (ie a blacksmith uses it for 1 charge to CRAFT a weapon) the mods that would randomly be added (as they are now) would follow similar logic to how the legendary items are spawned with a combination of mods that share the same synergy (ie Mana leech / stam leech / life leech together) while also using an appropriate property weight (ie valorite would allow property weight to be slightly over cap).

My second suggestion was to just slightly increase the max weight (around 50 points) to give slightly more weights but nothing crazy (like someone said add 2 more properties and 200 more weight). This would allow a slight bump and allow people to craft things (and reforge/imbue) for a target specific item while also not overpowering things to the point of making legendary items trash.

we play the game and the proper content to acquire those elite legendaries and that should remain the same.

Please, talk for yourself....

That you like "Fighting" as a way to acquire those elite Legendary pieces does not mean that all players might like fighting....

There is plenty of players who play Ultima Online for fishing, gardening, decorating their Homes AND for Crafting among other things which have nothing to do at all with Fighting.

Why shouldn't then Crafters be able to make Legendary quality items WITHOUT having to engage into fighting if Figting is NOT what they enjoy or like for their playing ?

Unless Crafters are allowed to make HIGH END quality items, comparable to legendary items that spawn as loot, how would they EVER be able to play Crafting as a really viable profession in Ultima Online ?

Why would players want to buy from crafters SUB-PAR items as compared to "looted" Legendary quality items when they can use Legendary Quality items that they get as loot from Fighting ?

And if Crafters cannot sell their items because they are CAPPED by Design for the items which they can craft to be of a lower quality as compared to items which can be found as loot, may I ask HOW would then Crafters be supposed to sell anything in Ultima Online and thus play Crafting as a really viable MAIN profession ?

That is why Crafting is now unplayable..... because Looted items have been made way more preferable then Crafted items....

If we want Crafting to make that come back which it deserves in Ultima Online, the ONLY way, to my opinion, is to permit to Crafters to be able to create Legendary Quality items.

Of course, in order then not to have the market be flooded by them, in conjunction to this, the Crafting process should then be made an elitarian one which only a few players would want to get into....

That is why I am saying that Crafting needs to be made a difficult, complex, time consuming and laborious process, NOT SCRIPTABLE.

In such a way, only those players REALLY motivated to play a Crafter in Ultima Online as their MAIN character would do it (they would have hardly any in game time left to be able to play a Fighter if they wanted to get into serious, high end quality, serious Crafting...), thus, severely reducing the amount of crafted High End Legendary quality items being created by players.

Most players finding Crafting too complex, too hard to learn, study and master and too time consuming would simply go Fight and get their Legendaries from Fighting OR buy them from those few players who took the effort, dedication and time to Master high end crafting to make them.....

Anything else, to my opinion, would NOT bring Crafting back as a serious and MAIN occupational activity in Ultima Online but would keep, to my opinion, Crafting being relegated to the role of a Mules' activity merely in support to one's own Fighters' needs.

It would not permit to players to play a Crafter as a MAIN playing style which, a game of the vastity of Ultima Online should, to my viewing, especially considering how in the early Ultima Online this WAS the case, with Crafting being a MAIN occupation and viable Profession alternate to Fighting and were Crafters were, for the most part NOT mules to Fighters but a real, MAIN Profession standing on its own.

That is what I would like to see again in Ultima Online for Crafting, a REAL come back as a MAIN, full time occupational playing style.

At least, that is how I see it.

Petra_Fyde said:

The idea of more items like whetstones to give an element of control over properties on looted items interests me, with the usual symbiosis of characters in UO I would make them obtained by hunters but only able to be applied by crafters.  We can remove damage increase from weapons, but I despair of how many jewels have both damage increase and spell damage increase on them I want one or the other, but never both. I would like to be able to remove one.

Add in dice rolls and you have balance.

It would be unfair and a bit overpowered to be able to use an item to remove exactly what property you want and another item to add exactly what you want.

Why not make it a dice roll?

Here's the idea...
@Bleak @Kyronix

You use an item that removes 1 property on a piece of armor and choose to select Lower Reagent Cost.  There's a roll based on how strong the item is you used, how intense the armor is you used it on and RNG.  If you win you get the property removed that you wanted.  If you lose it either fails to remove anything, or worse, removes something you wanted.  Maybe even a really low chance to break the item.

Then the item to add a random property, not allowing more properties than the highest legendary and but intensity can be anything depending on the roll, again same as above.

People would gobble up all the extra equipment sitting in vendor searches for months, years even.  They'd try and alter it to their liking, sometimes being successful, sometimes failing.  In the end, they'll spend time on obtaining these items and they'll spend gold on armor and weapons to use it on.

EDIT: Another nice side-effect would be decreasing the wares on the vendor searches due to more people buying and attempting to alter.

My suggestion is to make those high end runic useful for reforging, but for specific high end, hard to get clean items before imbuing.

For example, valorite runic hammer to reforge clean +10 SSI to jewels or +35 damage increase or +18 SDI. It's not easy to collect these high end runic, and may require burning 30 or more such hammer to maybe make one of the desired specs. 

Another way is for artifact resource that can time warp and revert an antique item to become brittle. Perhaps this can be a super rare item for the end of year Artisan Festival. I have 3 x legendary crafters in 3 active accounts yet the artisan festival never attracts me. 

There are some players like myself driven by acquiring functional items only. These are items that serve good purposes rather than just decor. We are only interested in a decor if it can sell for high price, so that we can use them to buy things that are functional such as power scrolls, major arties, and usable resources. 

@Seth - I'm with you in that I'm also driven by functional items. That said, you are talking about jewelry which I don't think should be able to reforge 10SSI etc on. 

However; I can see a potential for allowing the valorite runic hammer make items much better using the structural / fundamental toggles. For example as it stands now when using every single toggle on the reforging screen (10 charges of a val hammer) the total properties added still only would be 5 and most of the properties are the same as what can be imbued (maybe 1 might be overcap) all while the added durability (from fortified/integral - 2 charges) doesn't even go to max durability AND it can't be repaired. I think that if we use 8+ charges of a valorite hammer (over half it's charges) we should get something with some use in return (versus something we can create using a copper/gold runic + imbuing). 

@sibble - Sorry I just disagree with adding more stuff (that's not really even crafting; aside from needing to craft the refinement) that relies on the RNG which is infamous as it is. 

@popps - Replying twice (separately) to my single post is a perfect example of why there is no need for me to rebut any counter you provided (twice). I say this with no malcontent but I think if you spent half the time playing the game that you spent posting about the game; you would have a much better idea on how game mechanics work and why things need to be balanced. Again,we shouldn't be adding the "God-mode" ability...if people want that they can download Duke Nuke'm. 

My only addition to this thread will be the same feelings I"ve posted before on this topic. The absolute best items in the game should be craftable, or do I need to remind everyone of the actual titles...Legendary Blacksmith !!!...Legendary Tailor !!! Not..."Kinda Good, but you can get better items from The Roof"...

Garth_Grey said:

My only addition to this thread will be the same feelings I"ve posted before on this topic. The absolute best items in the game should be craftable, or do I need to remind everyone of the actual titles...Legendary Blacksmith !!!...Legendary Tailor !!! Not..."Kinda Good, but you can get better items from The Roof"...

That is what I am trying to say....

People do not settle for the "lesser" items, they want to use the top quality ones...

If top quality items are set to ONLY come from Loot well, guess what.... players will go hunting, get those Looted Legendary items and disregard crafting entirely....

And if "lesser" crafted stuff is being disregarded, I do not see how any player wanting to seriously play a Crafter as a MAIN character, NOT a Mule, would be able to play in Ultima Online....

They would make "lesser" items which noone wants because guess what ? They get better items from hunting....

So, the bottom line question one needs to ask is, "Do we want a playable and viable Crafting in Ultima Online to exist or not " ?

My crafters are NOT mules. I find the term offensive and insulting, because by your definition I, and people like me, are RL mules.  Housewives and househusbands who 'craft' for their families but do not sell.  Please stop using it.

..........

Petra_Fyde said:

My crafters are NOT mules. I find the term offensive and insulting, because by your definition I, and people like me, are RL mules.  Housewives and househusbands who 'craft' for their families but do not sell.  Please stop using it.

My apologies, that was not my intention.

I was using this word, simply because it has been used in Ultima Online for a very, very long time to indicate, this was my understanding, a crafting template used by the same one player only (or mainly)  to support one's own Fighting character and not as a viable, "main" character to be used fully "alternatively" to a Fighter one, as one's own most relevant playing style in Ultima Online. (i.e. most of the playing time spent in Ultima Online....).

At least, that was my understanding of the sense that this word has been used over the Years when discussing these matters in relation to Ultima Online gameplay styles and Professions, certainly not in reference to real life.

I mean, these Forums here, are to discuss things about Ultima Online, not real life, I understand.

What other word should then be used to better clarify the concept if I may ask ?

The point here, is to be able to use a word which might indicate, in the Ultima Online gaming world, a Crafting template basically mostly only used for self sufficiency of a player using it to support one's own fighters' characters.

That is, only, or mostly to support one's own Fighting templates and not to be played as a standalone, "main" character most of the time that one is logged into Ultima Online.

What other term would then be better and preferable to be used, when trying to explain and discuss such a thing in the gaming World of Ultima Online ?

Garth_Grey said:

My only addition to this thread will be the same feelings I"ve posted before on this topic. The absolute best items in the game should be craftable, or do I need to remind everyone of the actual titles...Legendary Blacksmith !!!...Legendary Tailor !!! Not..."Kinda Good, but you can get better items from The Roof"...

If this were the case, why would we go hunting? Most loot is armor or weapons. 

Agree 100% @Pawain

Pawain said:

Garth_Grey said:

My only addition to this thread will be the same feelings I"ve posted before on this topic. The absolute best items in the game should be craftable, or do I need to remind everyone of the actual titles...Legendary Blacksmith !!!...Legendary Tailor !!! Not..."Kinda Good, but you can get better items from The Roof"...

If this were the case, why would we go hunting? Most loot is armor or weapons. 

I am of the opinion that it is possible to maintain in the same one gaming environment a fully "main" playable Fighting character and a fully "main" playable Crafting character.

The one condition to have "both" characters be viable as a "main" played character, that is, one that would occupy the players in-game time like 90% of the time, is that what such a character can achieve is comparable with the other.

That is, if a Fighter can have access to Legendary quality items through fighting and hence looting, so then should the crafters be likewise able to have access to the same quality of Legendary items when making them, instead of looting them (crafting vs. fighting).

Having either one be only able to get to "lesser" items as compared to the other one, would inevitably have players flock to the one playing style (Fighting or Crafting) which would give them the upper hand in terms of quality of items obtained and frequency of availability.

This is why I insist on saying that Crafters should be made able to make Legendary quality items if we really want Crafting to be a thing in Ultima Online again.

If Fighters are able to get better stuff from loot (as it is now), why would then players want to bother with crafting and settle for lesser items ?

To me, it would make no sense.

Once we agree on this "balance", that is, crafted items needing to be craftable of the same quality as that of Legendary looted items, of course we would need to go on to "step 2" of it.... that is, making it sure that then Crafting would not "top" Fighting as a way to get best items in the game...

And how can this be achieved ?

My idea, was that of making crafting so complex, high learning curve and time consuming as a crafting process that only a few players would want to make the effort and hard work of really mastering it....

This would then limit the number of crafted Legendary quality items in the game (because only a limited number of crafters would make the effort to go all the way to high end crafting... and because the crafting process for such items would be so much time consuming that they would be hardly left any time to play a Fighter if most of their time needs be spent on crafting to make such high end items....) but still make it a viable option for those players who really want to make the effort, dedication and work to learn and master the complex and time consuming crafting process at least to make High End, Legendary quality items.

There you go.

BOTH ways to obtain high end items would be viable, but neither one would top the other.

Perhaps there might be other ways to achieve such a balance between Crafting and Figthing as a way to obtain high end items, I do not know, to my mind came up the one of making Crafting a very complex, high learning curve and very much time consuming, perhaps to others other ways to make the 2 different ways to get to high end items might come up their minds....

But the key goal to reach, if we want both ways to get high end items as a main play style for players, that is either through Fighting or Crafting be alternate to one another, THEN, the way I see it, it must be permitted to Crafters to be able to make items which are comparable to Legendary looted ones and not lesser to them.

That is at least how I see it.

@popps - Where do you draw the line by your logic? I could make the same exact argument using Begging; that it should allow for us to get legendary gear because it's only fair. Maybe the legendary items that are the most sought after should also just be in the local shop wooden boxes so a thief could steal them; again why should this template settle for lesser items?

At the end of the day the game is built around content and the best of items should only go to those that can complete it. There is no risk with crafting (ie no risk no reward) like there is with fighting. I do think crafting should have the potential boosted a bit as I outlined earlier but there is no reason a player should be able to craft the same caliber items as the highest end content provides. 

At the end of the day I think the Devs are smart enough not to give in to those people that want the entire game to be a walk in the park with everything being the same no matter who you are and what you do so this is my last post directed to you as you seem to be repeating yourself with the same "it's only fair" logic so ultimately we can agree to disagree. 

@popps I have 21 developed characters. Are you saying the game should be geared so I should only be able to effectively play 1 of them. I could play 6 to 8 hours a day if I pleased. Your silly complications and time needed won't effect me. I could use a more complex crafting  system and make much better armor than someone like you who does not know the mechanics of current crafting system.

keven2002 said:

@ popps - Where do you draw the line by your logic? I could make the same exact argument using Begging; that it should allow for us to get legendary gear because it's only fair. Maybe the legendary items that are the most sought after should also just be in the local shop wooden boxes so a thief could steal them; again why should this template settle for lesser items?

At the end of the day the game is built around content and the best of items should only go to those that can complete it. There is no risk with crafting (ie no risk no reward) like there is with fighting. I do think crafting should have the potential boosted a bit as I outlined earlier but there is no reason a player should be able to craft the same caliber items as the highest end content provides. 

At the end of the day I think the Devs are smart enough not to give in to those people that want the entire game to be a walk in the park with everything being the same no matter who you are and what you do so this is my last post directed to you as you seem to be repeating yourself with the same "it's only fair" logic so ultimately we can agree to disagree. 

Risk in fighting ?

Where is that if I may ask when a fighter has his/her suit all insured ?

I am sorry, but I cannot see any difference in between Fighting and Crafting, to me they are the same, sure, different play styles suiting different players but I do not see why they should not bring the same end results (same high end items...).

The "risk" so to speak with Crafting, justifying high end items, could come from the work, dedication, time investment connected with climbing a steep learning curve and complexity of the mechanics as well as in game time to spend on it.

It does not have to be related to "death" (which, due to insurance does not even matter much, does it ?), it can be related to "work" and time spent associated.....

I have no problem at all in seeing also other skills, you mentioned begging and stealing among others, being able to provide access to the high end items....

What is necessary here, though, is to make sure that any way that would permit to players to get high end items, would not be possible to be scripted or such items would soon be all over the place (but perhaps they already are.... aren't they ?).

Begging, not sure about stealing (it would depend on the stealing mechanics I would imagine), could perhaps be too easily scripted, even if the chance at a high end item was totally in the hands of the RNG... people would simply script begging characters 24/7 until they pile up high end items through it.

After all, don't we already have that happen with Figthing where fighters are scripted to farm high end items ?

Perhaps, here is where the line could be drawn.... avoiding those skills and skill related mechanics which could too easily be scripted....

But crafting ?

Depending on how the crafting process was to be created, I am hopefull that it could be made one that cannot be scripted because the script would be too complex, too massive, too cumbersone to want to bother with.

One thing I am quite confident about though, unless Crafting is permitted to create same quality as high end Looted items, it will never be able to be a viable Profession once again in Ultima Online...

I mean, why would players want to ever settle for "lesser" crafted items, if they can use for their templates better ones obtained via Looting ?

Mule was a term that began back before SoulStones. It was never meant to be any woke hurtful word. It meant the character(s) that did all of the heavy lifting, everyone knows that...well, I thought every one did.

Pawain said:

@ popps I have 21 developed characters. Are you saying the game should be geared so I should only be able to effectively play 1 of them. I could play 6 to 8 hours a day if I pleased. Your silly complications and time needed won't effect me. I could use a more complex crafting  system and make much better armor than someone like you who does not know the mechanics of current crafting system.

One does not "have to" play any and all Professions in Ultima Online.... if they wish so, they need to play them as intended....

It is their choice, they can do it or not.

So, if Crafting was made particularly complex, time consuming, and with a very steep learning curve, at least when trying to make high end items comparable to Legenrday looted items, then players would need to make a choice on how they would be willing to spend their in game time, that is, whether playing a crafter is so much important to them to invest in playing a crafter the overall majority of their playing time.

I see this as a necessary compromise to make Crafting once again a Profession of its own, playable as a "Main" character, without unbalancing the game.

If High End Crafting will be sufficiently cumbersome to limit the number of players wanting to do it and, thus, the number of High End items which players could craft, comparable with Legendary Looted items, I do not see how this ability would inbalance the game.

YET, it would be possible once again to play a Crafter as one's own Main occupation in Ultima Online...

Those who do not want to bother with this cmplex, time consuming and steed learning curve Crafting ? They would get their high end items through Fighting as they do now...

I frankly do not see why people gets so heated up by this....

Is it better to have a useless Crafting where crafters cannot make anything worth selling other then Imbued Weapons and 190 Luck pieces ?

I don't think so.

I'd rather be able to have a Crafting that could make any and all items of comparable quality to High End Legendary looted pieces BUT with strings attached to it then what we have now which basically makes Crafting hardly playable.

popps said:

Pawain said:

@ popps I have 21 developed characters. Are you saying the game should be geared so I should only be able to effectively play 1 of them. I could play 6 to 8 hours a day if I pleased. Your silly complications and time needed won't effect me. I could use a more complex crafting  system and make much better armor than someone like you who does not know the mechanics of current crafting system.

One does not "have to" play any and all Professions in Ultima Online.... if they wish so, they need to play them as intended....

It is their choice, they can do it or not.

So, if Crafting was made particularly complex, time consuming, and with a very steep learning curve, at least when trying to make high end items comparable to Legenrday looted items, then players would need to make a choice on how they would be willing to spend their in game time, that is, whether playing a crafter is so much important to them to invest in playing a crafter the overall majority of their playing time.

I see this as a necessary compromise to make Crafting once again a Profession of its own, playable as a "Main" character, without unbalancing the game.

If High End Crafting will be sufficiently cumbersome to limit the number of players wanting to do it and, thus, the number of High End items which players could craft, comparable with Legendary Looted items, I do not see how this ability would inbalance the game.

YET, it would be possible once again to play a Crafter as one's own Main occupation in Ultima Online...

Those who do not want to bother with this cmplex, time consuming and steed learning curve Crafting ? They would get their high end items through Fighting as they do now...

I frankly do not see why people gets so heated up by this....

Is it better to have a useless Crafting where crafters cannot make anything worth selling other then Imbued Weapons and 190 Luck pieces ?

I don't think so.

I'd rather be able to have a Crafting that could make any and all items of comparable quality to High End Legendary looted pieces BUT with strings attached to it then what we have now which basically makes Crafting hardly playable.

No matter how complicated things are made, many of us will have usable templates that cover everything.
Your complicated ideas just hurt the casual players.

Pawain said:

popps said:

Pawain said:

@ popps I have 21 developed characters. Are you saying the game should be geared so I should only be able to effectively play 1 of them. I could play 6 to 8 hours a day if I pleased. Your silly complications and time needed won't effect me. I could use a more complex crafting  system and make much better armor than someone like you who does not know the mechanics of current crafting system.

One does not "have to" play any and all Professions in Ultima Online.... if they wish so, they need to play them as intended....

It is their choice, they can do it or not.

So, if Crafting was made particularly complex, time consuming, and with a very steep learning curve, at least when trying to make high end items comparable to Legenrday looted items, then players would need to make a choice on how they would be willing to spend their in game time, that is, whether playing a crafter is so much important to them to invest in playing a crafter the overall majority of their playing time.

I see this as a necessary compromise to make Crafting once again a Profession of its own, playable as a "Main" character, without unbalancing the game.

If High End Crafting will be sufficiently cumbersome to limit the number of players wanting to do it and, thus, the number of High End items which players could craft, comparable with Legendary Looted items, I do not see how this ability would inbalance the game.

YET, it would be possible once again to play a Crafter as one's own Main occupation in Ultima Online...

Those who do not want to bother with this cmplex, time consuming and steed learning curve Crafting ? They would get their high end items through Fighting as they do now...

I frankly do not see why people gets so heated up by this....

Is it better to have a useless Crafting where crafters cannot make anything worth selling other then Imbued Weapons and 190 Luck pieces ?

I don't think so.

I'd rather be able to have a Crafting that could make any and all items of comparable quality to High End Legendary looted pieces BUT with strings attached to it then what we have now which basically makes Crafting hardly playable.

No matter how complicated things are made, many of us will have usable templates that cover everything.
Your complicated ideas just hurt the casual players.

But it would limit nonetheless  the number of players willing to get into High End crafting reducing them to only those truly motivated to play a Crafter 90% of their in-game time and to make the work, study and effort to master the truly high steep learning curve of it....

Which it would make those Crafted, "same-Legendary-Quality" items be reduced from crafting and, thus, not be able to really replace Legendary Quality items obtained through Looting...

Voila', we get our wanted game Balance while consenting to Crafters to make same Quality items as Legendary Looted items...

Crafting in Ultima Online makes a comes back as a Main occupation and activity...

Casual players wanting to do some crafting ?

They could still do it ONLY, not the really top notch High End quality crafting which would need a whole lot more effort and in game time that they might be willing to invest....

keven2002 said:

@ Seth - I'm with you in that I'm also driven by functional items. That said, you are talking about jewelry which I don't think should be able to reforge 10SSI etc on. 

However; I can see a potential for allowing the valorite runic hammer make items much better using the structural / fundamental toggles. For example as it stands now when using every single toggle on the reforging screen (10 charges of a val hammer) the total properties added still only would be 5 and most of the properties are the same as what can be imbued (maybe 1 might be overcap) all while the added durability (from fortified/integral - 2 charges) doesn't even go to max durability AND it can't be repaired. I think that if we use 8+ charges of a valorite hammer (over half it's charges) we should get something with some use in return (versus something we can create using a copper/gold runic + imbuing). 

keven2002 said:

@ sibble - Sorry I just disagree with adding more stuff (that's not really even crafting; aside from needing to craft the refinement) that relies on the RNG which is infamous as it is. 

Not wanting RNG is a fair opinion... I'm just surprised a player would have this opinion based on the fact that most mechanics in UO are chance-based - even combat.

120 Taming 120 Lore?  There's still a chance to fail to tame that dragon...

However, I disagree with it not being considered crafting.  It's very similar to imbuing and refining.  Part of it is skill-based, part of it is chance - the only difference between that and imbuing is imbuing also takes additional resources, and in this case, the item to refine properties is the resource.  Also haven't discussed how to obtain the item at all as there are hundreds of ways to handle that.

Imbuing is skill-based, uses resources, and has chance to fail.  The idea is almost identical.

keven2002 said:

My second suggestion was to just slightly increase the max weight (around 50 points) to give slightly more weights but nothing crazy (like someone said add 2 more properties and 200 more weight). This would allow a slight bump and allow people to craft things (and reforge/imbue) for a target specific item while also not overpowering things to the point of making legendary items trash.

You realizing only 50 points won't help much, regardless of how many "mods" are allowed. I think my original comment of adding 2 more mods (up to 7) and 150-200 points of weight will bring crafting back, without "overpowering" the Legendary Artifacts,as they can have 8 mods AND 5 resists in the 17-19 range. The trade off being that while the Legendary can have a little more "weight", an imbued piece can be tailored to EXACTLY the mods needed. Making both viable.