Parry on PvP

good evening

I come here to complain about Parry that is very strong in these servers, Nowadays you can not hit the target on account of Dci and still Parry and all players are adding parry in their pvps because it is very overpower

Mage for example with parry gets almost immortal due to defense
can heal in a matter of seconds and yet the enemy misses all the damage due to the dci and parry

I would like to know when you are programming a change to the skill Parry

ParryMages have been around forever, long before all this garbage.

To give an alternative viewpoint;

People are taking Parry up because they have to, they are forced to, because short range weapon users are way too strong. Dismount is a huge issue, short range weapon users are now able to do this entire operation so fast you don't stand a chance. Everyone has become a weapon user, so the remaining mages are having to take up Parry.

I don't use Parry on my mage, and my only alternative right now, is to quit PvP.

I know an entire group of mages, some with, some without parry, who are winding down their PvP in the current scenario.

Parry is not the disease, it is the only a symptom. Fix the main issues, and parry won't be required so much.

I guess it depends on what scenario you PvP in, but in an open running group/solo battle, mages without parry don't stand a chance right now, they are being ripped to shreds.

In a close confined space, a mage without parry, can just about get away with it, if there is an entire group of you, and you have the entire place fielded up. Remember, Mages with Parry, sacrifice 80 Statpoints that have no other purpose than just to make parry work - which is 80 statpoints they need in mana to cast a decent amount of spells. Parry disadvantages mages so much, that if you like to cast spells, like I do, you can't cast enough.

How much Mana do I require to play a mage = 200. Much like Dexxers often aim to reach for 200ish Stamina. You try fitting 125 Str+80 Dex+150 Int = 355 Stat Points into your template, then building the +25HP increase on, then the +50 Int increase (= 430 required Statpoints), it's not possible imo, also to reach all the other required maximums. My point is here - to achieve 80 Dex, Parry Mages sacrifice a lot, those 80 points in Dex, do nothing else useful for a mage, whereas Weapon users can use all their stats to very good purpose, and they do.

So currently Mages have the option of having Parry and being able to survive at least - but not being able to cast much, or having no Parry and being able to cast a decent amount of spells - but get ripped to shreds in PvP.

I would personally, be ok if Parry as a requirement was dropped, we could survive without it, but I want the ability to cast a decent volume of spells.

The problem with parry mages is wrestle/anatomy in conjunction with parry.  This is what needs to be nerfed down to like 35% block chance, right now its 66% block chance.  The reason this needs to be changed is that template allows them to have pot-chugging plus defense plus offense with zero penalty.  A dexxer that is say bushido parry which requires more skill points on his template loses all his offense if disarmed, where the parry mage can never be disarmed.  This a big reason why you don't see and pure dexxers anymore.  Some of the issues is the power creep in global loot  combined with extra lmc of things like studded gear.  Nowadays its easy to make the 80 dex requirement on those characters without sacrificing your mana pool or HP.  I also think the bonus lmc should be removed from UO, this will make players need skill to play their templates instead of just spamming specials which is just dumb.  I think that the stamina cap should be 200 too,  there is no reason for ranged dexxers to have such a huge advantage over melee.  These are just some of things that need to be fixed in order to bring balance back into pvp and get more people involved.

Hi Higgs,

I would like to see a return of pure warriors myself. I think the big issue for them, is the main skill - healing, which is what you'd expect to be the main healing skill, is so weak in comparison to other methods - hence the rise of bushido, or sampires. Buff healing massively, to enable pure warriors to compete I believe.

Regarding the 66% block rate, ie 1 in 3 success chance of hitting, it only takes that 1 hit for you to be dismounted, and it's game over for the mage - it's that little fun out there right now. You may only have a 1 in 3 chance, but that 1 hit is all you need and the mage is ganked to pieces.

And no matter how you look at it, getting 80 Dex , 150 HP, and 200 mana, is not easy, easpecially to maintain all the other maximum stats you need. When I run a parry mage - I cannot kill any spawn to actually pvm. It completely ruins the mage.

The issue of pvming on a mage is completely different problem.  The fix to mage pvm is actually pretty simple, just add leeching benefits to spellbooks.

The 66% block rate doenst include the hci/dci check which can cause them to miss as well as the 5% chance to just straight wiff for no reason.  There is literally 4 checks the dexxer has to make it through to hit you one time which is completely absurd.  This is based on 1v1 fight because ganking is ganking no matter what template your playing.  The parry mage will always have the 4 checks every swing no matter what, whereas any other weapon skilled template can have their checks reduced by disarming.  If wrestling was actually seen as a weapon skill like swords they wouldn't be able to chug while still having the max defense of the template.  That's the issue with the setup.  Every template in the game has some kind of penalty to either offense or defense, whether it be disarm or mana vamp or whatever.  The wrestle parry mage in pvp has no penalty to play it all.  Their numbers on offense and defense will always be the same no matter what.  That is what needs to be fixed.  Look at it like this, if bushido chars could still evade damage while disarmed would that be ok?  I don't care if parry mages are played its just the combination of wrestle/anatomy with parry that needs to be adjusted.

All I know from experience right now, of playing a mage without parry, is it is not possible to match the dexxers.

So parry has to add additional benefit, and I've explained all the negatives having parry does to a mage, so many, I don't even like playing it. So I have no issue if parry were not a requirement, but we need some other protection v Dexxers right now, as without parry, I cannot PvP, I'm one of the only ones even trying it. I would like Weapon Skill Dismount Special nerfed, in response to Parry being nerfed, that may balance the playing field.

Right now, without Parry, dexxers instant hit every time, dismount, gank, dead.

That is pvp right now, you cannot discount it by saying ganking is ganking. Everyone PvP's in a team, and if you are being wiped out that fast, it's no use.

The_Higgs_1 said:

The 66% block rate doenst include the hci/dci check which can cause them to miss as well as the 5% chance to just straight wiff for no reason.  There is literally 4 checks the dexxer has to make it through to hit you one time which is completely absurd.

I always find myself wondering where you get your information from.

Since you're an expert I shouldn't have to explain that there are only 2 checks, HCI vs DCI and then parry. 

But I would LOVE to see how you come up with a 66% block rate prior to hci/dci, Oh and this phantom 5%

The_Higgs_1 said:

The problem with parry mages is wrestle/anatomy in conjunction with parry.  This is what needs to be nerfed down to like 35% block chance, right now its 66% block chance.  The reason this needs to be changed is that template allows them to have pot-chugging plus defense plus offense with zero penalty.  A dexxer that is say bushido parry which requires more skill points on his template loses all his offense if disarmed, where the parry mage can never be disarmed.  This a big reason why you don't see and pure dexxers anymore.  Some of the issues is the power creep in global loot  combined with extra lmc of things like studded gear.  Nowadays its easy to make the 80 dex requirement on those characters without sacrificing your mana pool or HP.  I also think the bonus lmc should be removed from UO, this will make players need skill to play their templates instead of just spamming specials which is just dumb.  I think that the stamina cap should be 200 too,  there is no reason for ranged dexxers to have such a huge advantage over melee.  These are just some of things that need to be fixed in order to bring balance back into pvp and get more people involved.

The “penalty” is investing 100 skill points for nothing except the extra defensive ability.  IMO, it’s a fair trade off since anatomy give literally no other benefit to a mage template with parry.

Check 1 - Weapon skill (wrestling/anatomy) 50/50 chance to hit

Check 2 - HCI v DCI 50/50 Chance to hit

Check 3 - Parry 35% chance to block hit

Check 4 - The 5% swing and miss -- If you have used a sampire in the last 7 years you would notice you can miss swinging at a slime, which at max can have 34 wrestling and you have 120 weapon skill.  According to the games calculation if your weapon skill is 60 points higher then what your hitting you shouldn't miss but yet you do.  But hey maybe slimes are refined to 70 DCI, LOL!

Also investing 100 points with todays loot is not a penalty considering you have a whole extra 120 skill on your template from just your suit.

The_Higgs_1 said:

Also investing 100 points with todays loot is not a penalty considering you have a whole extra 120 skill on your template from just your suit.

No matter how many suit points you can get, anatomy is still 100 points that could go to something else that is being invested for nothing other than some additional defense.  

I agree with the other who have continued to point out that mages resorting to so much defense (parry and anatomy) is a symptom of an unbalanced melee equation.  Most mages would love to play a more balanced offensive/defensive template (heck I know I would) but for the most part it isn't very viable.  A mage without anatomy/parry is toast the moment they are disarmed. 

120 Skillpoints in Wrestle/Anatomy.

120 Skillpoints in Parry.

80 Stat points in Parry.

That's a lot of skillpoints (240 - 33% of entire skills template)/statpoints (80 - 30% of entire statpoints) mages are having to invest in defence - I see nothing like that from Dexxers currently being invested in defence. Heck - most even drop Resist Spells and/or don't have Healing. Dexxers are able to use all those points freely to do whatever they want with. And boy they do.

Maybe if current Dexxers were forced to invest more in Defence, and were not so offensive orientated, you could balance the mages by reducing their requirement for so much Defence.

You can't throw the fact you can gain 120 of a Skill from suit properties as being a reason to nerf Parry, Dexxers are equally able to throw 120 into any other skill they want. (I argue gaining 120 Skills into a balanced suit is very difficult anyway).

The_Higgs_1 said:

Check 1 - Weapon skill (wrestling/anatomy) 50/50 chance to hit

Check 2 - HCI v DCI 50/50 Chance to hit

Check 3 - Parry 35% chance to block hit

Check 4 - The 5% swing and miss -- If you have used a sampire in the last 7 years you would notice you can miss swinging at a slime, which at max can have 34 wrestling and you have 120 weapon skill.  According to the games calculation if your weapon skill is 60 points higher then what your hitting you shouldn't miss but yet you do.  But hey maybe slimes are refined to 70 DCI, LOL!

Also investing 100 points with todays loot is not a penalty considering you have a whole extra 120 skill on your template from just your suit.

I see only 2 checks, 
here is the formula;
FORMULA: Hit Chance% = ( ( [Attacker's Combat Ability + 20] * [100% + Attacker's Hit Chance Increase] ) divided by
( [Defender's Combat Ability + 20] * [100% + Defender's Defense Chance Increase] * 2 ) ) * 100
Minimum hit Chance% is 2% at all times.

If your any good on a mage parry is not needed.  Now if you get dismounted with 7-8+ on you its not gonna matter if you have parry or not.  If the numbers are even and your mates aren't cross healing you while your footed then you need a better team.  I survive just fine on a mage without parry, just using mage weapons or an actual weapon skill.  Mages also have the ability to slow people down with fields and walls such.   There is no reason to have wrestle/parry have such a high block chance.   I get ganked all the time but it still usually takes them 15-30 screens to finally kill me with the numbers.   Todays pvp doenst have a lot of skill just some groups with numbers, its in a sad state regardless but I think that the defense of parry mages still needs adjusted.

The_Higgs_1 said:

The issue of pvming on a mage is completely different problem.  The fix to mage pvm is actually pretty simple, just add leeching benefits to spellbooks.

The 66% block rate doenst include the hci/dci check which can cause them to miss as well as the 5% chance to just straight wiff for no reason.  There is literally 4 checks the dexxer has to make it through to hit you one time which is completely absurd.  This is based on 1v1 fight because ganking is ganking no matter what template your playing.  The parry mage will always have the 4 checks every swing no matter what, whereas any other weapon skilled template can have their checks reduced by disarming.  If wrestling was actually seen as a weapon skill like swords they wouldn't be able to chug while still having the max defense of the template.  That's the issue with the setup.  Every template in the game has some kind of penalty to either offense or defense, whether it be disarm or mana vamp or whatever.  The wrestle parry mage in pvp has no penalty to play it all.  Their numbers on offense and defense will always be the same no matter what.  That is what needs to be fixed.  Look at it like this, if bushido chars could still evade damage while disarmed would that be ok?  I don't care if parry mages are played its just the combination of wrestle/anatomy with parry that needs to be adjusted.

Quick and dirty potential fix - if the target isn't holding a weapon, have disarm work against the shield. 

The parry mage has always been around and has always been strong vs a dexxer. This type of mage is not very strong to play tho otherwise. You sacrifice way too much to get defense. Half the temp, half the stats, and wrestling isn't a fun skill. It's pretty boring. 

Disarming the shield is a horrible idea. You want the last few mages to quit? What about bushido? That seems like a bushido increase again, the penalty to bush has always been disarm nerfs a lot of it's defense. But let's make shields pointless. I say a timer on specials, so you can't spam the same one nonstop. Use some different weapons. Use stamina on every swing? I mean from a mages point of view we use and consume mana for everything, while trying to get enough defense to not get shredded. I'm always out of mana on any mage I play when pvping, yet we are too strong? No sir, dexxers are too strong now and in a game that has always been about magery it's ridiculous. The difference you fail to see is that mages practice their craft non stop, especially PvP mages. So to bitch about some guy being better then you, because he puts time and effort into playing his class while you are off crafting and tmapping is ridiculous. 

Dexxers have been buffed non stop for the past few years and it has resulted in the majority of mages quitting. So yeah it's working well if you want no one to fight and to say you are the best because there is no competition..

This game should buff the mage, it's the core staple of UO. 

There he is guys, my long lost twin from a far superior universe. 🙂

North_LS said:

The_Higgs_1 said:

The issue of pvming on a mage is completely different problem.  The fix to mage pvm is actually pretty simple, just add leeching benefits to spellbooks.

The 66% block rate doenst include the hci/dci check which can cause them to miss as well as the 5% chance to just straight wiff for no reason.  There is literally 4 checks the dexxer has to make it through to hit you one time which is completely absurd.  This is based on 1v1 fight because ganking is ganking no matter what template your playing.  The parry mage will always have the 4 checks every swing no matter what, whereas any other weapon skilled template can have their checks reduced by disarming.  If wrestling was actually seen as a weapon skill like swords they wouldn't be able to chug while still having the max defense of the template.  That's the issue with the setup.  Every template in the game has some kind of penalty to either offense or defense, whether it be disarm or mana vamp or whatever.  The wrestle parry mage in pvp has no penalty to play it all.  Their numbers on offense and defense will always be the same no matter what.  That is what needs to be fixed.  Look at it like this, if bushido chars could still evade damage while disarmed would that be ok?  I don't care if parry mages are played its just the combination of wrestle/anatomy with parry that needs to be adjusted.

Quick and dirty potential fix - if the target isn't holding a weapon, have disarm work against the shield. 

Ive suggested that shield disarm before, they insta cry when its mentioned.  Magery is still the most dominate template played and is the best period.  Just cause some mages just aren't good enough to play without easy button wrestle/parry doesn't mean magery is weak somehow.  Like I said before you cant add in being ganked cause that doesn't make any difference.  If you are footed on a mage the dexxer still has chances to miss you on a mage regardless if you have parry or just a mage weapon, If the mage team foots a dexxer the mage is guaranteed to deal damage on the dexxer.  So I don't see how you guy scome up with this false information.  In order to become a good mage in UO, it takes lots of practice over a long period of time.  Once people get it down this will be a meaningless conversation.

Mages > Dexers, the only difference is you need to invest more time (practicing) to become "good" at playing a mage.   Once that's done, a dexer can barely compete with a good mage, Regardless if Parry is part of the fight or not.

Parry-Mage vs dexer 95% of the time there are 3 outcomes, but only the first two should ever happen... because Parry-Mages are so hard to hit on average you'd hit  1/3 swings, you'd need to land 4-6+ hits in a row to kill ANY "good" mages.

#1) Dexer Runs Away... (this is a loss in my book... because it's definitely not a win).
#2) Dexer Dies. (they will if they don't run)
#3) Dexer kills parry mage, because the mage has no idea how to play UO. 
(I feel this way even if the mage doesn't have Parry.)

*Dexer - a player that has no ranged "Casting" abilities, relying solely on "Weapon-Based Attacks" for both interrupts & damage output.

*Mage - Anyone with Magery & Eval-int, relying on "spells for both damage, healing & interrupts.

One of the main reasons (IMO) that dexers are so easy to beat, is because they're limited to 1.25s attacks or slower, they will ALWAYS have a chance to miss anyone at a minimum of 5% (you cannot reach 100% chance to hit anyone anymore, it's been this way for at least 6 years)

Perhaps, if Wrestling/Anatomy + Parry isn't going to be reduced somehow. dexers should have a swing speed cap of 0.75s instead of 1.25s... 

Then maybe the people would actually be correct when saying things like "I'm Forced to play with Parry or simply stop playing mages"...  it's unbelievable some of these guys.

The only reason you see a lot of parry is because dexers/archers are powerful.  You think people want to invest 120-240 skill in parry or parry and bush?  Hell no. Would much rather invest that into more utility like mystic, Necro, poisoning, weaving you name it but parry balances things

.75s lol

Ya we should definitely let these guys balances the game

A Dexer can barely compete with a good non-parry mage, add Parry to the mage, a dexer might as well not even try. (one vs one)

Obviously I wasn't being serious about the 0.75s thing... merely stating that if it should occur, then there would actually be logic behind the whole "Forced to have parry" argument.
IMO, anyone that feels "Forced" in to having Parry because of Dexers, is very inexperienced in mage-pvp.  It was made fairly clear in my previous post. anyway...

IMO a block-chance penalty should be slightly greater than it is with Parry + Bushido, because there are much less disadvantages to Wrestling OR Anatomy + Parry, than any other combination.

Parry-Mages remain close to 70% chance to completely avoid damage, with up to an even greater chance to avoid spell interruption vs dexers if Casting Focus is factored (75% / 79%) 12% CF/ 17% CF with scribe respectively.   It's fairly obvious that Mages have the upper hand against anything relying on weapon-based damage & interruptions.

The Devs add Parry to the focus spec restriction list, Instead of implementing a block chance  penalty similar to Parry + Bushido + 1-handed weapon.... the block chance penalty would have addressed the problem.  but at least they're not the best in both offense & defense anymore...

Cetric said:

The only reason you see a lot of parry is because dexers/archers are powerful.  You think people want to invest 120-240 skill in parry or parry and bush?  Hell no. Would much rather invest that into more utility like mystic, Necro, poisoning, weaving you name it but parry balances things

 The Dexer's trade off is always defense for the ability to chug potions, they have a reduced chance to block AND invest more skill points into Bushido and Parry + 1-handed weapon...  
2-handed weapons either Block OR they're "balanced" so you could chug potions... Where's the equivalent to a Wrestle/Anatomy+Parry?   They give up "weapon damage"?   shield bash hits just as hard as most weapon specials.

Wrestling + Parry mages can also disarm... as if they need it. (lol)

How exactly is that balanced?

Have you ever pvp'd since 97 Covenant? You seem stuck in a dexxer dark age in your viewpoint.

I'll invite you to our shard, and we'll set you up a pure mage so you can see what it's like.

Or we can give you a shard shield or something, to get a premade pure mage over.

Very serious offer, I'm not going to bother arguing with you, unless you take this offer up, so you know what you are talking about.

Regarding experience, over the weekend, our team (with me in - 8v8) won the PvP event, did an uncontested Harry on Saturday night because no-one would take us on, then did a few hours PvP yesterday raiding a Dragon Turtle spawn, then an hour or so more in the evening trying to take someones Harry. Many of these fights include 30 odd players from 3-6 guilds. I've only ever PvP'd on a mage as my core, and I've been doing it for almost 2 decades. Our guild is highly experienced at PvP, and mainly made up of PvP vets, original Factioners etc.

We mainly PvP against Dexxers (and it's boring as hell), why is that? We have had a couple of better non Dexxer Dismount gankfest fights recently, where the opposition were not using PvP crutches, and I even had to compliment them for a good fight, first I've had for awhile.

what server are you on cookie?

@Cookie which shard do you play on?

I have shard-shields I can go just about anywhere.
I play mages 80%+ of the time, but I can make a character for whatever shard you play on.

Europa guys, it's very active, and ton of fun. 🙂

(for pvp).

i havent pvp'd in 15 or so years, so im sort of out of the loop on current balance. the shield-disarm was just a quick idea based on what was written here.

I do know i'll never ever build a mage with parry. my old pvp templates are pure scribe mage and chiv holy light spam mage, i have no idea if they're still viable but i dont plan on changing them much. 

I do have an old eval hybrid im up in the air on what to do with and open to suggestions on.

most of this "debate" goes back to some original questions regarding balance

Should templates in pvp be balanced towards 1v1 or group vs group.  The overwhelming decision was group v group.  Parry IS NECCESARY when you are fighting 5v5 and have 3-4 archers switching onto a target, heal blocking with mortal/poison and laying waste.  1v1, yep a parry char has a decisive advantage over a dexer. 

the OP plays alone, by himself, no team and plays an archer only.  No mages, no anything else.  He is a solo archer in the world.  You can see how he formulates his opinion on the subject.

Cetric said:

most of this "debate" goes back to some original questions regarding balance

Should templates in pvp be balanced towards 1v1 or group vs group.  The overwhelming decision was group v group.  Parry IS NECCESARY when you are fighting 5v5 and have 3-4 archers switching onto a target, heal blocking with mortal/poison and laying waste.  1v1, yep a parry char has a decisive advantage over a dexer. 

the OP plays alone, by himself, no team and plays an archer only.  No mages, no anything else.  He is a solo archer in the world.  You can see how he formulates his opinion on the subject.

  Dunno, man I play mages 80%+ of the time in pvp, I don't play Any dexers that don't "cast" spells, simply for interrupting mages because without it, it feels like a waste of time.

I could kill most people much faster on a mage, because with spells, you don't need to rely on the RNG of landing hits.   Yet, I have a similar opinion as the OP on dexers vs mages (especially Dexer(s) vs Parry-mage(s))

 The OP may play solo and only play archers, it doesn't matter... you know why? because parry does make mages near-immortal vs dexers.  All because they keep their maximum level of defense + a hand free for potions.   This is why the Adjustment/nerf/tweak - whatever you want to call it, needs to be targeted specifically to Wrestling And/Or Anatomy + Parry.  No one else would have a hand free without at least temporarily dropping defense for a potion.

 Also, shield-bash - as a parry-mage there really isn't any other mastery that could compete with it, deals damage roughly equivalent to an Armor Ignore + paralyze.


 You're saying the OP is likely biased with the last comment, and most of the time it's safe to assume that, except the problem is there have been numerous posts about Parry being Overpowered if Mages are using it (on stratics), and the nerf the devs have applied doesn't address Parry, it Addressed Focus-Spec.    Hence why Parry is still overpowered.

Parry was already nerfed for mages when they added the Dexterity requirement to effectively wield a shield.  

The dex requirement was a decent fix prior to global loot revamp.  It no longer applies to the current meta.

CovenantX said:

Cetric said:

most of this "debate" goes back to some original questions regarding balance

Should templates in pvp be balanced towards 1v1 or group vs group.  The overwhelming decision was group v group.  Parry IS NECCESARY when you are fighting 5v5 and have 3-4 archers switching onto a target, heal blocking with mortal/poison and laying waste.  1v1, yep a parry char has a decisive advantage over a dexer. 

the OP plays alone, by himself, no team and plays an archer only.  No mages, no anything else.  He is a solo archer in the world.  You can see how he formulates his opinion on the subject.

  Dunno, man I play mages 80%+ of the time in pvp, I don't play Any dexers that don't "cast" spells, simply for interrupting mages because without it, it feels like a waste of time.

I could kill most people much faster on a mage, because with spells, you don't need to rely on the RNG of landing hits.   Yet, I have a similar opinion as the OP on dexers vs mages (especially Dexer(s) vs Parry-mage(s))

 The OP may play solo and only play archers, it doesn't matter... you know why? because parry does make mages near-immortal vs dexers.  All because they keep their maximum level of defense + a hand free for potions.   This is why the Adjustment/nerf/tweak - whatever you want to call it, needs to be targeted specifically to Wrestling And/Or Anatomy + Parry.  No one else would have a hand free without at least temporarily dropping defense for a potion.

 Also, shield-bash - as a parry-mage there really isn't any other mastery that could compete with it, deals damage roughly equivalent to an Armor Ignore + paralyze.


 You're saying the OP is likely biased with the last comment, and most of the time it's safe to assume that, except the problem is there have been numerous posts about Parry being Overpowered if Mages are using it (on stratics), and the nerf the devs have applied doesn't address Parry, it Addressed Focus-Spec.    Hence why Parry is still overpowered.

What would you propose then?  You Nerf parry, what do you think a group of dexers would do to a group of mages?

The_Higgs_1 said:

The dex requirement was a decent fix prior to global loot revamp.  It no longer applies to the current meta.

Even with the global loot changes adding dex to 80 is a hefty sacrifice for mages.

Cetric said:

What would you propose then?  You Nerf parry, what do you think a group of dexers would do to a group of mages?

 The same thing I propose every time.. unrelated to parry, but can still be used in conjunction..

#1) Remove Casting Focus from pvp.
#2) Remove Poison immunity (free cure) from pvp.

It's just more crap that gives mages additional RNG benefits they don't need. Take away some of the randomness and bring back player skill (timing & awareness) to pvp.

 Parry wouldn't be so Overpowered for mages if say the parry chance were reduced to 20% from 35% (only if paired with Wrestling or Anatomy), but a Parry-mage would still be more difficult for a dexer than a non-parry mage.  I want it to be consistent & balanced, in the same fashion it is for literally every other template that uses it.  

 a Mage would still beat a dexer with the proposed parry reduction.
 group vs group... is irrelevant because the same would hold true if the terms are equal.  it just depends more on how well coordinated the group is, Obviously if you play with a bunch of people that don't know what they're doing, vs another group that does... you'd lose regardless which side you're on.

Lieutenant_Dan said:

Even with the global loot changes adding dex to 80 is a hefty sacrifice for mages.

 I take it you haven't experimented much with reforging/imbuing, you clearly haven't with global loot.

 a Mage with a base of 10 dex can easily reach 80+ with very little or no sacrifice.. actually it's fairly simple to make a suit with low end runic kits to reforge + imbuing with a single filler legendary for resistances and some of the most commonly used "artifacts".  going the "Imbued" route you'd likely give up a few HPR & MR points, that's about it.   but then again... the "sacrifice" depends on how bad the filler legendary piece is.

Also, if your dex is only 10 (real) Curse & Clumsy doesn't reduce it even if your have the highest possible dex increase on your suit + potions & any other buff, which can exceed 100 dexterity without reallocating stat points from strength or intelligence.

 Covenantx, with regards to casting focus, it’s 12% tops (without inscribe), I don’t think anyone would ever die without it anymore. I think it really adds an interesting element. Weaken heal must come with a very small risk (of the aggressor casting through the disturb). We’re all 20 year vets now, nobody would ever die against a mage if you could guarantee the disturbs.

poison resistance only kicks in rarely, but often when you’re poisoned frequently , this is really fair against people who think it’s skilful to poison harm harm poison harm harm at super fast EC auto target last speed.

They’re both quite clever balances added. I really don’t know why you’re so stuck on this purist classic magery. 

Cure potions have a chance to fail, an nox has a chance to fail, bombard has a chance to stun, when you go to shield bash, they have a chance to dodge, I could go on. Let it be. I like it.

@Mervyn ;  it's 12%-17% stacked on top of dodge chance (50%) and parry chance (35%)
all of which are skewed against dexers more than anything else.

Parry + Defensive skill = 67.5% chance to completely avoid damage from a dexer. slightly lower than 1/3 attacks will land

Parry + Defensive skill + 12% Casting Focus = 75.6% to completely avoid interruption. slightly lower than 1/4 attacks will land

Parry + Defensive skill + 17% Casting Focus = 79% chance to completely avoid interruption ~slightly above 1/5 attacks will land.


Poison Immunity goes off rarely when everyone has poisoning skill...which most people do, shocker, I know.... The whole "poison, harm, harm" is irrelevant,  interrupt the harm... it's pretty  easy to get out of that.

Poison Immunity & Casting Focus aren't clever balances... stacking additional RNG onto things that were based on 100% timing is garbage.

Greater Cure potions with only 35% EP & 0.0 alchemy skill can literally only fail on lv 4 & 5 (DP  & LP) poisons... oddly enough, it requires poisoning skill to use those.   skill-based methods = 2nd tier when compared to potions. all because there's no cooldown.

As you well know casting focus doesn’t prevent you from being hit, so you’re talking about the chance to cast a heal if you’re including casting focus. But if you’re hit with infecting or mortal or if it’s the coup de gras, then the casting focus doesn’t come into your equations.

plus you haven’t factored in any hit lower defence which most dexxers hit.

@Mervyn That's why I said it's a total chance to avoid spell interruption.  the spell could be healing, offense, or utility.. it matters not.

Hit Lower Defense can only proc if you land a hit in the first place... besides, even if lower defense was in affect the entire fight. it would work as follows.

avoid being hit/spell interruption
60.75% / 71% (scribe +17 CF - HLD)
60.75% / 68% (+12 CF - HLD)
60.75% / -- (-HLD)

even if the parry reduction I suggest (20% down from 35%) were to take place the chances would be as follows:

avoid being hit/spell interruption
54% / 63% (scribe +17 CF - HLD)
54% / 60% (+12 CF - HLD)
54% / -- (-HLD)

Parry chance doesn't get reduced by hit lower defense whatsoever, it's a flat 35% at all times with 120 parry & 80+ dex, (Parry chance can be increased with the mastery though, but I'm not factoring that)... It's only the "dodge chance" that's reduced by hit lower defense, it's -35% (15 dci at 45/45)

Also, the "dodge chance" is calculated before the parry chance, so you would end up reactive paralyzing your attacker more often with low defense chance increase, so there's potential benefit there as well. (RP buys you more time than a dodge or parry)

as a side note:  HLA => HLD  for those of you who run Parry+Bushido (mages...) of course, you would have both.
 
Hit lower Attack = -25 HCI (20/45)
Hit lower Defense = -35% DCI (30/45)

If it doesn't matter whether the spell is healing, or utility, or offensive, then lets just put protection on and make the summs = a full 100%

Mervyn said:

If it doesn't matter whether the spell is healing, or utility, or offensive, then lets just put protection on and make the summs = a full 100%

  It doesn't matter because the point is it should be interrupted if you're hit, unless protection is used, Protection has penalties associated it.

Casting focus should be pvm only, or it should just be completely removed from UO altogether.
same thing with the poison immunity (free cure), if you want it, use orange petals. it's what they're there for after all...

Parry still needs re-balancing if it's paired with Wrestling or Anatomy.

20%-35% block chance if Wrestling Or Anatomy is your defensive weapon skill. (35% only if both hands are occupied)
20% block chance for Balanced 2-h melee weapons. (Balanced 2-h melee weapon + Parry + Bushido)

35% block chance for Fencing, Macing, Swords + Parry (1-h Weapon + Parry + shield  OR 1-h weapon + Parry + Bushido)

40% block chance for 2-h Fencing, Macing, Swords (melee + Parry + Bushido + 2-h weapon)

That looks much more fair to me than the current system does.


⎈ Personally, I'd rather the passive block chance be completely replaced by something you toggle so that you could guarantee a block on the next incoming block-able attack, obviously with a cooldown.   make the players timing & awareness make the difference in a fight, instead of this random garbage.  ⎈

Okay you have demonstrated you have a high chance of defence with wrestle parry against warriors. But that is what a parry mage is, a warrior defensive char. It’s a Rock Paper Scissors issue. I have a good suited parry mage, but it’s not my main char as i find it’s not very defensive against groups of mages etc. 

You could play a chiv mage with 69.9 magery and FC4. Would be very very defensive but very litttle offence. 

Mervyn said:

Okay you have demonstrated you have a high chance of defence with wrestle parry against warriors. But that is what a parry mage is, a warrior defensive char. It’s a Rock Paper Scissors issue. I have a good suited parry mage, but it’s not my main char as i find it’s not very defensive against groups of mages etc. 

You could play a chiv mage with 69.9 magery and FC4. Would be very very defensive but very litttle offence. 

 Well, your main defenses against other mages would be Magery (your timing*) & Potions.
Unless you have bushido for evasion, but as I've said in the previous post.  there are vulnerabilities to that and it requires many more skill points.

*with casting focus being part of mage pvp, "timing" isn't always reliable anymore.

the key phrase is: it’s not very defensive against groups of mages etc

the defense & offense on a wrestle/parry-mage =/= against pretty much every other type of mage with fewer vulnerabilities, because you cannot be disarmed to reduce your defenses & you always have a hand free for potions.

I have been a pure mage since the begining of time well 2000 for me. And as the years have progressed UO has slowly drifted more and more towards hybrid builds and dexxor heavy builds.. Well I believe this is the #1 reason to why most mages is going to parry is because the waki and bok builds. "And If parry needs a nerf so do those other builds right now the bokmage build gets 10% mana reduction because of the weapon skill and the bushido and parry as long as all three skills equal 300 points.... which means giving the bokmage the HUGE upperhand on casting many more spells than a normal or pure mage which doesnt make sense to me and if you couple this with the lmc 55% its a God build, the focused mage should have more mana and more damage via spells and NOT weapon hits obivously" And I also think the pure mage is trying to compete with the bokmage or the alchy bokmage or waki/bokmage or even the disarming/poisoning/ hit you with a yummy or moving shot you to death archer/fencer/poison.. Because like the parry mage is all we had left for a pure mage and now they change the coding to where you can not be a focused mage while having parry when parry was never part the main skills sets that kept you from being focused.. I specifically remember my toon having parry and being focused before 2015.. so now we can't have parry to use anymore on our mages unless you want very minimal damage being done to the target. Between all the hybrid builds and such you almost have to have parry/wrestle now days on a mage to even compete. With the dexxor heavy and hybrid builds.. I mean are we eventually going to make mage obsolete in the pvp field? Because a dexxor and evade 100% of my spells every 20 seconds and it can last from 6 seconds to 8 seconds if you have gm or above in tactic and anatomy so in theory after they use envade they can use it again in 12 seconds because 8 seconds will have done passed... Or a deathstriking poison dart nervestrike ninja.. how am i suppose to combat all of these crazy dexxor builds IF i do not want to be a dexxor that is... And I realize I'm only looking at this in the perspective of a pure mage and there is many other templates out there I understand that. But I guess my point here is I'm willing to have all pvp balanced as long as it goes both ways I suppose. Thanks for reading my spill 😂

No matter how you try to look at the numbers, it is impossible to balance world pvp, we need to change the balance paradigm and move on to arenas and battlegrounds.

P.S. if you want this, then as has already been said, everything new will be on NL first, so if you want it to be faster than later, help test and leave feedback.

Garret said:

No matter how you try to look at the numbers, it is impossible to balance world pvp, we need to change the balance paradigm and move on to arenas and battlegrounds.

P.S. if you want this, then as has already been said, everything new will be on NL first, so if you want it to be faster than later, help test and leave feedback.

Please stop suggesting this arena nonsense.  The last thing we need is a developer to actually listen to it.. not enough people would do arena's. It's a total waste.

Me +7 Years ago.

I've pvp'd every single day since then, until now.
I've not changed, the situation has barely changed.

Brilliant resurrected thread - it does show just how long we have been raising these issues.

AtomicBetty said:

Garret said:

No matter how you try to look at the numbers, it is impossible to balance world pvp, we need to change the balance paradigm and move on to arenas and battlegrounds.

P.S. if you want this, then as has already been said, everything new will be on NL first, so if you want it to be faster than later, help test and leave feedback.

Please stop suggesting this arena nonsense.  The last thing we need is a developer to actually listen to it.. not enough people would do arena's. It's a total waste.