DEAR DEVELOPERS..... can we please have next Year's Arc be focused on CRAFTING and Crafters ?

Since the end of the Year is approaching, I assume that the Ultima Online Developers might be discussing on what to Focus next Year's Ultima Online's Global Arc....

May I humbly make a suggestion ?

Since the drops of Legendary Items, Crafting, which was a LEADING gameplay content in Ultima Online, has gone the way of the Dodo..... unfortunately.....

There is hardly any need to work with crafting, saved for Luck suit and some special Weapons' Imbuing....

Yet, Crafting has always been one of the driving forces in Ultima Online and this, since its beginning....

Could we please hope in a serious Crafting comeback of Crafting in next Year's Arc ?

NOTE : Please, PLEASE, do NOT simplify the current complexity of Crafting as it is in Ultima Online. Leave it as complex or, possibly, even MORE complex as it is to Craft in Ultima Online.

Why am I saying so ?

Because :

(1) - First and Foremost I would NOT want Crafters to be used as mere "Mules" in support of Fighting Characters. I want Characters to need the time and effort necessary to be MAIN characters to be played for those players who actually enjoy Crafting and want Crafters to be their MAIN character to play in Ultima Online.

(2) - Making Crafting a complex and time consuming activity in Ultima Online, this would be the rightfull compensation, to my opinion, to the benefits that it would provide (Risk vs. Reward). Since Crafting obviously is a non dangerous activity, its "high"Risks need to come in the form of complexity to learn all of the ins and outs of Crafting and get through it, as well as of time invested in that activity towards the Rewards that it may provide to the Crafter.

Making Crafting an "easy" and "quick" enterprise to manage, I am much afraid, would make it more likely to see Crafters used as Mules in mere support of fighting characters rather then be used as genuine, MAIN characters to be played with the rightfull investment of study and work time which I think they deserve and should take.

Only a complicated, much study needing Crafting mechanics as well as investment of time in Crafting processes, I think would make Crafting characters be only used by those players who actually WANT to play a Crafter as their MAIN character, and not use a Crafter character as merely a "Mule" in support of their other Fighting characters....

Thank you very much.

Marge said:

Yes this is just what uo crafting needs - more complexity!  *ROLLEYES* *please note the sarcasm*

I have yet to make head or tails of the refinements - or as I call them the clean up point givers.

And if you don't think crafting is already time consuming you have yet to make a luck suit or gorgon lenses.

Do we want to see Crafters being used a mere Mules in support of fighting "main" characters ?

I sure hope NOT !!

The ONLY way, to my opinion, to dissuade most players who do not see Crafting as their "main" occupation in Ultima Online, is to make it extremely complex, difficult to Master (i.e. needing much time to study and learn and absorb it...) and very time consuming to be processed.

This way, ONLY those players who truly want to play a Crafter in Ultima Online as their MAIN playing character will want to take the work, study, time and dedication that it needs to play it....

All other players, who mainly use Fighting as their leading occupation in Ultima Online, might not want to bother with the complexities of Crafting and time it takes, althougether, and prefer to call Crafters' hired services as they need them.....

Which would then give to Crafters in Ultima Online a reason and a way to exist on their own, as MAIN played characters.....

I think it a NECESSITY if we want Crafting and Crafters to be played as MAIN Characters and not as mere "Mules" in support of Fighting "Main" characters.....

MissE said:

I ALREADY play my crafters as much as my other 'main' characters so in that respect I don't have a 'main'.  I want my crafter to support my other 'mains'. 

My crafters are there to support my whole game play style from running my shops to my fighting characters.  If yours currently isn't then I guess you do not play the crafter properly.

I do NOT want more complexity put into crafting, more stuff to craft, SURE, but definitely NOT More complex.  In fact a lot of crafting needs to be more simplified rather than making it more complex.  Mucking around with reforging and all that rigmarole is already the biggest pain in the butt, and as for refinements the less said the better.

The last thing UO needs is more complexity in crafting.

I have 2 main crafters on two separate accounts and cover all trades.  These two characters do NOT leave town. I don't want them to leave town, and they can make ANYTHING.

I have another two characters dedicated to gathering for my crafter.  ie does fishing, lumberjacking, mining. 

I then run across three accounts 3 tamers, 3 mystic/mages, 3 archers, 2 sampires, 3 thieves and a bard. With a few other characters a mix of various skills. 

In fact a lot of crafting needs to be more simplified rather than making it more complex.

An astounding and loud NO to that !!

If Crafting gets more simplified, then what will stop players who mainly fight to just raise their Crafters and be "self-sufficient" in their Crafting needs WITHOUT having to rely on "external" Crafters as "hired services" for their Crafting needs ?

AT LEAST, if Crafting is kept complex, time consuming and difficult to be learned and Mastered, most mainly fighting players will not want to bother with it and invest time in Crafting and, therefore, will need to rely on external Crafters hired for their services....

And this, WILL bring work and gameplay to DEDICATED Crafters in Ultima Online....

Making Crafting more simplified would KILL Crafting as a dedicated form of gameplay, to my opinion.

Most if not all players, at that point, would just train up a Crafter and become totally self-sufficient for all of their crafting needs not needing to rely on other players, who instead would like to play a Crafter as their MAIN playing character in Ultima Online.

I have no doubts on that, personally. 

Make Crafting more simplified and easier would mean the END of Crafting in Ultima Online as a DEDICATED and main occupation and profession for players in Ultima Online.

We would only see pretty much any and all Crafters be then used as mere "Mules" from players in support of their "main" Fighting characters....

No thank you.

I have 2 main crafters on two separate accounts and cover all trades.  These two characters do NOT leave town. I don't want them to leave town, and they can make ANYTHING.

I have another two characters dedicated to gathering for my crafter.  ie does fishing, lumberjacking, mining. 

I then run across three accounts 3 tamers, 3 mystic/mages, 3 archers, 2 sampires, 3 thieves and a bard. With a few other characters a mix of various skills. 

Question.
Do you need to rely on "OTHER" Crafters' players in Ultima Online for your needs ?

Other then rarely and seldomly, or when you "do not feel like" to bother with your crafting needs, I need to imagine, with that Team you got, that you are pretty much "self-sufficient" in all of your Crafting needs.

Is that so, is my question ?

If the answer is yes, as I imagine, don't you "perhaps", just perhaps think that this self-sufficiency might be a BAD thing overall for Ultima Online because it reduces interaction among players and, most importantly, the ability for players who might want to play a Crafter as a "MAIN" played character in Ultima Online to be able to support their gameplay ?

Why would anyone want to hire a dedicated Crafter if they could be easily "self-sufficient" in any and all of their crafting needs and thus not need to hire other players ?

If Crafting was to instead be difficult, complex to Learn, requiring much study and time dedicated and invested in it, OF COURSE, is my thinking, that ONLY (or mostly) those UO Players REALLY wanting to play a Crafter in Ultima Online as their "Main" Character would want to bother with any and all of that....

Most other players, mainly interested in Fighting in Ultima Online, is my thinking, would not want to bother will all of the complexities and time necessary for Crafting and would therefore resort to "other" players playing Crafters' as their Mains, for their whatever crafting needs....

THIS is, to my opinion, the way to see Crafting prosper and thrive in Ultima Online again.... and have the Profession of being a Crafter be once again noblified and made a wanted and important one....

That is at least how I see it.

The last enhancement to crafting was the expansion of the bod system. I don't really do them myself - because I find the whole thing too darn complicated. 
The Artisan Festival is just about to kick off for this year, I suggest you get involved in that.

I've done RL crafting: dressmaking, crochet, knitting, tatting, soft toy making. None of them were really complicated. 

I'm inclined to think that before you ask the developers to change something on this scale you find out how much support you have among the players, if any.

The last complex thing added I remember where refinements. Everybody using them tells Kyronix it's good stuff. All three of them. Totally worth the couple of weeks effort.

From all past experience, I rather vote to not have it touched at all.

@popps suggestion... just no.

I’m pretty happy with the balance and direction of looting vs crafting ingame right now.

Looting pretty much rules combat armor.

Crafting rules luck suits and weapons.

Both get involved with artifacts through drops and recipes.

Crafters have always been support chars (IE Mules) to the other classes and was the first char most players made along with a warrior class to get things started.

YES Crafting needs a MAJOR boost to bring it back to it former glory.

NO, NO, NO Crafting DOES NOT need to become more complex in fact it needs to be made easier and more stream lined.

Marge said:

Anyone that wants to play a crafter as their main toon already does just that. Making a class more complicated would be the absolute worst thing to do if you are wanting to bring on more crafters.

I personally gave up making armor when the reforging mess came out. I just wait til I find a piece on a monster's loot to make my suits even though I have 120 tailor, smith, and imbuer.

I feel pretty safe stating you are the only person who would want the crafting system to become even more complicated and convoluted than it already is today.

 

Just please, explain to me, "if" crafting was more simplified, why on earth any player would want to hire a Crafter in the game for their needs and not just have one themselves, to be self-sufficient on any and all of their Crafting needs in Ultima Online....

It is PRECISELY the complexity of Crafting, the learning of it, the time it takes for all of that, that deters al those players interested more in Fighting to stay away from it, on average....

But if Crafting was revamped, giving to crafters the ability to "compete" with Legendary items looted from fighting, AND crafting was also simplified, made simple, WHY ON EARTH should not any and all players just get their own, personal Crafter and never need to hire a dedicated one in Ultima Online ?

Making Crafting more simple and easier to learn, Master and manage would only KILL Crafting in Ultima Online, to my opinion...... killing it, in the sense of a "dedicated" MAIN playing Profession....

Who would need to hire other players' Crafters when they could have one of their own to be self-sufficient, especially if Crafting was made more simple and less time consuming to manage ?

I am sorry, but I do not have doubts, Crafting MUST stay complex, hard to Learn, manage and work with..... only in this way it will be possible to permit players who want to be dedicated to it to be able to, and have customers actually looking for their services in the game....

This, particularly considering that most crafting resources need fighting to be gathered.... but since Crafters are no fighters, HOW would a non-fighting Crafter be able to "afford" the purchase of crafting ingredients from Fighters if then fighters, thanking to a more simplified and easier Crafting to manage and work will, for the most part, have Crafting characters of their own ?

How would "dedicated" Crafters be able to earn gold in Ultima Online to then be able to afford purchasing resources from fighters if fighters will not need to pay Crafters for their services since most fighters would have Crafters of their own and would be self-sufficient in all of their crafting needs ?


No thanks.

Crafting NEEDS to be complicated, much difficult to be learnt and mastered and time consuming to be processed.

Only in this way it would be possible to deter the "casual" Crafter away and only permit to players who REALLY want to play Crafters as their Mains, to be "THE" Crafting Resource in Ultima Online to be hired for any and all crafting needs....

This, ESPECIALLY if Crafting will get a revamp and Crafted items will be given same quality as Legendary "drop" items.....

That is at least the way I see it.

Wow, a poops thread I can actually agree with, times are a changing.

More complexity, more power and more time to crafting!

You don't like it? Then you don't appreciate the process and craft.  I 'mAiN a CrAfTeR, I enjoy that the suits I make take weeks, tons of different materials and layers of processes to complete.  Pride of accomplishment for the effort, adventure of scouring the world for different resources and appreciation for the time I spent gathering all the knowledge to do so.

If you craft to support your other characters, yeah you aren't into it and don't want it.

I have characters to support and test my crafters.  I am into it.

WornOutYourTool said:

Wow, a poops thread I can actually agree with, times are a changing.

More complexity, more power and more time to crafting!

You don't like it? Then you don't appreciate the process and craft.  I 'mAiN a CrAfTeR, I enjoy that the suits I make take weeks, tons of different materials and layers of processes to complete.  Pride of accomplishment for the effort, adventure of scouring the world for different resources and appreciation for the time I spent gathering all the knowledge to do so.

If you craft to support your other characters, yeah you aren't into it and don't want it.

I have characters to support and test my crafters.  I am into it.

You forgot to use your sarcasm font! 

@popps ; Can you show us a suit that you have made from crafting?  I can show you suits or pieces that I have made and use.

All of my toons wear crafted jewelry and use crafted weapons.

Can you show me your looted Dexxer suit?  Does it have 210 stamina and decent strength?
My crafted pieces make mine have that.

Again you are asking to change something you know little about.  Show me some of your suits to prove me wrong.

Crafting has a place. 120 more imbuing points and another stat would make crafted suits almost as good as what we can find on items now.  Too bad you do not know this.

There is enough to do in crafting now.  You can play 4 hours a day on your crafter if you choose.

Too bad you do not know how they work.  Do what someone said above, participate in the Artisan Festival this year.

IMO crafting is already too hard for you since you do not know how it works.

Pawain said:

@ popps  Can you show us a suit that you have made from crafting?  I can show you suits or pieces that I have made and use.

All of my toons wear crafted jewelry and use crafted weapons.

Can you show me your looted Dexxer suit?  Does it have 210 stamina and decent strength?
My crafted pieces make mine have that.

Again you are asking to change something you know little about.  Show me some of your suits to prove me wrong.

Crafting has a place. 120 more imbuing points and another stat would make crafted suits almost as good as what we can find on items now.  Too bad you do not know this.

There is enough to do in crafting now.  You can play 4 hours a day on your crafter if you choose.

Too bad you do not know how they work.  Do what someone said above, participate in the Artisan Festival this year.

IMO crafting is already too hard for you since you do not know how it works.

Honestly they could balance much of crafted pieces if they would bump the base resists on crafting materials to produce the kinds of resists on basic legendary pieces when crafted with arms lore.  Then it would be super easy to have crafted suits (imbued or reforged) with 5 additional mods on each piece without worrying about resists as a mod.

Exactly. 
 A 5 to 10 point boost to base resists would be great for Reforging.  Adding one more property to Imbuing would make imbuing competitive.

 A lot better approach than making crafting difficult.

popps said:

Marge said:

Anyone that wants to play a crafter as their main toon already does just that. Making a class more complicated would be the absolute worst thing to do if you are wanting to bring on more crafters.

I personally gave up making armor when the reforging mess came out. I just wait til I find a piece on a monster's loot to make my suits even though I have 120 tailor, smith, and imbuer.

I feel pretty safe stating you are the only person who would want the crafting system to become even more complicated and convoluted than it already is today.

 

Just please, explain to me, "if" crafting was more simplified, why on earth any player would want to hire a Crafter in the game for their needs and not just have one themselves, to be self-sufficient on any and all of their Crafting needs in Ultima Online....

It is PRECISELY the complexity of Crafting, the learning of it, the time it takes for all of that, that deters al those players interested more in Fighting to stay away from it, on average....

But if Crafting was revamped, giving to crafters the ability to "compete" with Legendary items looted from fighting, AND crafting was also simplified, made simple, WHY ON EARTH should not any and all players just get their own, personal Crafter and never need to hire a dedicated one in Ultima Online ?

Making Crafting more simple and easier to learn, Master and manage would only KILL Crafting in Ultima Online, to my opinion...... killing it, in the sense of a "dedicated" MAIN playing Profession....

Who would need to hire other players' Crafters when they could have one of their own to be self-sufficient, especially if Crafting was made more simple and less time consuming to manage ?

I am sorry, but I do not have doubts, Crafting MUST stay complex, hard to Learn, manage and work with..... only in this way it will be possible to permit players who want to be dedicated to it to be able to, and have customers actually looking for their services in the game....

This, particularly considering that most crafting resources need fighting to be gathered.... but since Crafters are no fighters, HOW would a non-fighting Crafter be able to "afford" the purchase of crafting ingredients from Fighters if then fighters, thanking to a more simplified and easier Crafting to manage and work will, for the most part, have Crafting characters of their own ?

How would "dedicated" Crafters be able to earn gold in Ultima Online to then be able to afford purchasing resources from fighters if fighters will not need to pay Crafters for their services since most fighters would have Crafters of their own and would be self-sufficient in all of their crafting needs ?


No thanks.

Crafting NEEDS to be complicated, much difficult to be learnt and mastered and time consuming to be processed.

Only in this way it would be possible to deter the "casual" Crafter away and only permit to players who REALLY want to play Crafters as their Mains, to be "THE" Crafting Resource in Ultima Online to be hired for any and all crafting needs....

This, ESPECIALLY if Crafting will get a revamp and Crafted items will be given same quality as Legendary "drop" items.....

That is at least the way I see it.

WornOutYourTool said:

Wow, a poops thread I can actually agree with, times are a changing.

More complexity, more power and more time to crafting!

You don't like it? Then you don't appreciate the process and craft.  I 'mAiN a CrAfTeR, I enjoy that the suits I make take weeks, tons of different materials and layers of processes to complete.  Pride of accomplishment for the effort, adventure of scouring the world for different resources and appreciation for the time I spent gathering all the knowledge to do so.

If you craft to support your other characters, yeah you aren't into it and don't want it.

I have characters to support and test my crafters.  I am into it.

I wished we could have the LIKE function on these Forums....

I think crafting is better in UO than in most other MMOs. I definitely do not want it simplified. Right now there is actual player skill/knowledge necessary for crafting. In most other games, the only thing that matters if getting the materials. Crafting itself is just mindless clicking one or two buttons. I like UO way better. 
Could crafting be better? Yes. It could also be or get worse. Thus, I'd vote for it to be left alone and to concentrate on things that are really broken.

I'm with Sliss on this... it was UO's crafting system that really attracted me to the game.

Originally, Kirthag was a tailor on ATL - until some RPing orc rez-killed her by the Empath Abbey (pre-T2A). Kirthag became a fighter then and has been since. She is my main and always will be.

However, my most enjoyable character is Tandy (previously named Minerva) - my crafter/gatherer.
Soulstones really helped me to enjoy her more. When she's done with gathering, swap out that skill for another of the crafting ones, and make all kinds of stuff. My goal with Tandy is to have her max all crafting skills and be able to make anything and everything a crafter can. She would sit at various public forges, repairing and crafting armor and weapons for people. She used to make luck suits and give them away to young ones. She fills BoDs, and is currently learning to cook cakes. 😂

Tandy became a house decorator, decorating some of the most prominent castles and homes of Napa with her crafted furniture. Eventually, this lead to house designs and even castle/keep masonry gigs. Tandy is my most versatile character, the one who gets the most game-time now and manages all of my vendors. If Tandy is in-game, she is either building, designing, or working on items for sale and giving away - and that is a lot of the time.

Over the years, my "main" toon Kirthag gets less and less time in the game - yet Tandy gets more and more. 

But there is one rub.

Making crafted suits worth selling is horribly confusing. I thought I was pretty good at figuring out things, but balancing between Imbuing and Refinements, and when to do which to what to produce something worthwhile.... ugh. Looking at all the loots I gather to determine if something should be "enhanced" in some way, or simply recycled is very time consuming - and probably why Kirthag doesn't go hunting as much anymore. Just too much to deal with and too much to think about and calculate. The last suit officially made by Tandy (all pieces) took over 5 months to do because of the maths and research and gathering involved - and I forgot how she did it. For those that still make full suits - I commend you.

Now, adding Masteries to certain crafting skills for really super-duper crafting WITHOUT the need of imbuments or refinements would be something I could get behind - and before everyone starts whimpering "not another mastery" - it is a system already in place and would probably require the least amount of tinkering to add into only CERTAIN crafting skills. Apply mastery to blah skill, add some uber high-level recipes in some crafty way to get, add mastery-level rewards for blah skill (title, etc.) and be done with it. Some love, some boost, and some credible items that can only be crafted by the masters! 

Certain items (Runed Switch, amongst others) takes a combination of skills to make. Perhaps allowing items like that would give crafters more of a purpose. 

One thing that really made me excited about another RG game (SotA) was the promise of "discoverable recipes" - meaning players could discover how to craft something, then have the ability to teach others how to craft it. So like, rather than doing quests to earn a recipe, maybe players would attempt a "create a new recipe" process... however, this would be a separately coded system that only does checks for certain things in the current skill system. (just brainstorming)

Or maybe setting up an apprentice/master relationship. THAT would be an interesting way to boost crafting gameplay - maybe the only way to attain mastery is to have trained so many apprentices! Add masteries, and only masters could train a single apprentice crafter to learn certain recipes? Needs thought is just a brainstorm - but I think this could be something new that would tie in with so many other systems without tinkering too much with the base skill codework.

Totally reworking the existing crafting system(s) - I would avoid that at all costs. These are some of the oldest systems in the game... think about that for a moment before asking for them to be messed with. 

Pawain said:

@ popps  Can you show us a suit that you have made from crafting?  I can show you suits or pieces that I have made and use.

All of my toons wear crafted jewelry and use crafted weapons.

Can you show me your looted Dexxer suit?  Does it have 210 stamina and decent strength?
My crafted pieces make mine have that.

Again you are asking to change something you know little about.  Show me some of your suits to prove me wrong.

Crafting has a place. 120 more imbuing points and another stat would make crafted suits almost as good as what we can find on items now.  Too bad you do not know this.

There is enough to do in crafting now.  You can play 4 hours a day on your crafter if you choose.

Too bad you do not know how they work.  Do what someone said above, participate in the Artisan Festival this year.

IMO crafting is already too hard for you since you do not know how it works.

hotlinks removed by Mariah

Marge said:

"Just please, explain to me, "if" crafting was more simplified, why on earth any player would want to hire a Crafter in the game for their needs and not just have one themselves, to be self-sufficient on any and all of their Crafting needs in Ultima Online...."

Pretty sure about 98% or more of UO players have crafters and are self sufficient already.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for doing something on these boards I have never seen before - everyone here for once has the same opinion and agrees with each other - Complicating Crafting further is a terrible idea. There will be snow this year in South Louisiana - hell has frozen over! 😂

Pretty sure about 98% or more of UO players have crafters and are self sufficient already. 

So, if 98% "or more" of Ultima Online players have Crafters and are self sufficient, don't we then need to realize that, BECAUSE OF THIS SELF-SUFFICIENCY, these 98% "or more" or players will not interact with other players playing a Crafter character as their "Main" ?

That is, that Crafters, as a character, is NOT a viable character to be played as a Main character ?

WHEN do players call out for "Crafting Services" ?

Ain't this "external" Crafting Service being seeked pretty much for those Suits being "difficult to be crafted" like Luck Suits or the like ?

Therefore, how can we not conclude that, PRECISELY when Crafting becomes complicated, complex, time consuming, it is THEN, that players who do not want to bother investing time and efforts in "learning" the "HOW TO" more advanced Crafting, decide not to bother with any of that and go to seek out the hired services of other players more knowledged and experienced into Crafting ?

That is, what my point is......

Which it is, that if we want to have Crafting as a viable MAIN profession in Ultima Online were some players not interested in investing the time and effort that it takes to learn and Master it, as well as process it to produce items, will go out to seek "external", hired Crafting Services for their needs.

And the ONLY one way to get this achieved, to my opinion, is to have a Crafting mechanics that was complex, require a significative EFFORT to be learned, and the Crafting processes require a significant investment of time.

How much time does a Fighter put into getting that good drop when "farming" a given Boss ?

For a Crafter, it should not be any different.... the entire process to get a good item should take effort, SKILL (learning the complexities of the "how to" produce that given, advanced, high end item....) and time.

Crafting, if at all, should be made MORE complex, NOT simplified.....

This, if we want to make Crafting a truly viable MAIN occupacy in Ultima Online as a Profession and not a mere "Mule" character in support of other fighting characters that are the "mains"....

I can guarantee this, if they don't improve crafting and instead make it more tedious and even less viable as an income than it already is, you can kiss my 14 accounts goodbye once-and-forever. 

My crafter and merchant is pretty much the only reason I login anymore.

I want two things.  To customize my own keep and castle and a bump to crafting.  I'm getting very tired of waiting for either one.

For crafting I want;
= a revamp of runic kits.  Keep it simple.  Up the charges and up the intensity and properties.
= imbuing, up the max intensity and properties and add the ability to completely remove a property.
= reforging, fix the combinations that mix mage properties with dexxer properties.
= don't know enough about refinements.
= resource gathering, improve efficiency without stupid maps only acquired by filling BODs.

After the treasure hunting "fix", you all better be careful what you wish for! 

I'll admit that I am not a high seas fan, so this year was pretty disappointing for me. I don't think I could take next year with just crafting "fixes". 

I used to craft a lot suits and nowadays because the legendaries those days are over. Crafting nowadays is only for some luck suits or weapons and especific pvp bows. With the global nerf on legendaries and the fact that people were so "used" to the 14, 15 mods pieces, i also agree that they should bring back the crafting to the same level of those legendaries.
* Give us the choice to add 2,3,4 more mods (sell in the game store a special tool for that)
* give us a choice to replace an useless skill from a jewel and replace for other maybe.
So many things can be done and I am sure 1/2 of those they can add to the store.
But dont make more complex as it is now, crafting and imbuing, it is so time consuming.
The Devs told us that "Soon" the new VVV system would be next in their to do list, why not take the same time ti implement the crafting.

I started as a crafter standing in Brit trying to make my name so i can sort of agree with popps that it should mean something but I'm not really wanting something overly complex.

I also agree with the base resist boost. 

The problem I mainly have is not being able to reach max swing with imbued gear. I spent a long time working a crafter and imbuer. 

Loot should be better but crafted imbued gear should at least provide the basics so I can use any weapon I wish.

Marge said:

As I (and Pawain among others) have said before you must have not made suit before if you don't think they are time consuming and complicated. Go make a few suits and come back in three months or more and tell us how non time consuming it is.

Make crafting anymore complicated and people will not hire crafters; they will simply farm bosses for the perfect loot.

Any character can be your MAIN character if it is the one you play and enjoy the most. Stop trying a different class of character every day then screaming for the developers to change it. Stick to a character for a few months, actually play it, and learn what they can do. If it's not to your liking, change skills and try again.

I have made suits as well as imbued them.

I have not get well into all of the ins and outs to maximize what crafting allows nowdays to make with reforging and all that but yes, I know what it currently takes to craft.

With the exception of some "fine tuned" suits which require spreadsheets and the matching of all numbers, to make "average" suits is not that big of a deal....

We need to realize that we are talking here of a Crafting "Revamp" which would bring "high end" Crafted items on par with Legendary items that are looted through fights....

Only, that with Crafting one can "design" the wanted piece while with looting, one has to wait for that lucky drop....

My thinking is, that it is necessary, if we want to give to High End Crafting the same quality of Looted Legendary pieces, it needs to NOT BE a simplified process but requires REAL LIFE skill, learning of the crafting processes involved and investment of time both into learning the "how to" and to actually "make" those high end Crafted pieces that would be"on par" with the quality of looted Legendary Artifact items.....

I do not like to put the difficulty for Crafters into the gathering of resources which, most often, are Designed to come as loot from fighting....

Crafters do not fight. Crafters make things.

Resources, therefore, should be obtainable for the largest part, to my opinion, via non fighting ways. Otherwise, Crafters become totally dependant on fighters' mood on how much to have to pay for those Resources which then can create trouble to Crafters being played as a Main character to be competitive with other Crafters being played by some player who "also" has a Fighter to gather those Resources and who can, therefore, undersell those other Crafters who do not have a Fighter character to get their Resources....

Bottom line is, that, to my viewing, the "Risk vs. Reward" for Crafters should not come as a fighting Risk, but as a difficulty in the Learning Process connected to the Learning of "How to" Craft, at least, for the High End items that would be competitive with Looted Legendary Artifacts and the likes....

And of course, also through a complexity and time consumingness of the entire crafting process.

This should be the "Risk" involved with Crafting to justify the High Rewards associated....

If Crafting was to be simplified, this making it more easy would necessarily reduce the "High Risk" associated to Crafting and would, therefore, not justify the High Rewards associated to then be able to craft High End items comparable to looted Legendary Artifacts and the likes....

That is at least how I see it.

I have crafters but don't know anything about reforging.
There are pages where I can read about it, but I'm from the "Show Me" state.
I can usually figure things out myself, but with something so complex...
why can't there be a quest that teaches you how to do reforging and imbuing...

a quest that tells you step by step of what to do... like the one you can do for animal training.
And the reward can be the materials you used and loyalty to the Gargoyle Queen.

popps said:

I have made suits as well as imbued them.

I have not get well into all of the ins and outs to maximize what crafting allows nowdays to make with reforging and all that but yes, I know what it currently takes to craft.

Reforging has been out for years.  A plain imbued suit is nowhere near a reforged suit.

You clearly are over your head on this.  Reforging is complicated.  So complicated you have never tried to do it.

How many 90 charge Barbed kits do you have?  See how long it takes you to get 10 so you can start to Reforge a suit.  10 will not be enough to make a good Luck suit.

That is at least how I see it.

Pawain said:

popps said:

I have made suits as well as imbued them.

I have not get well into all of the ins and outs to maximize what crafting allows nowdays to make with reforging and all that but yes, I know what it currently takes to craft.

Reforging has been out for years.  A plain imbued suit is nowhere near a reforged suit.

You clearly are over your head on this.  Reforging is complicated.  So complicated you have never tried to do it.

How many 90 charge Barbed kits do you have?  See how long it takes you to get 10 so you can start to Reforge a suit.  10 will not be enough to make a good Luck suit.

That is at least how I see it.

WellSaid

Pawain said:

Reforging has been out for years.  A plain imbued suit is nowhere near a reforged suit.

You clearly are over your head on this.  Reforging is complicated.  So complicated you have never tried to do it.

How many 90 charge Barbed kits do you have?  See how long it takes you to get 10 so you can start to Reforge a suit.  10 will not be enough to make a good Luck suit.

That is at least how I see it.

+1

Pawain said:

popps said:

I have made suits as well as imbued them.

I have not get well into all of the ins and outs to maximize what crafting allows nowdays to make with reforging and all that but yes, I know what it currently takes to craft.

Reforging has been out for years.  A plain imbued suit is nowhere near a reforged suit.

You clearly are over your head on this.  Reforging is complicated.  So complicated you have never tried to do it.

How many 90 charge Barbed kits do you have?  See how long it takes you to get 10 so you can start to Reforge a suit.  10 will not be enough to make a good Luck suit.

That is at least how I see it.

Yes, but also no.

Yes, reforging is complicated and only those players dedicated to Crafting usually take the time and make the effort to learn the ins and outs of it.

No, the complexity of Reforging would NOT be sufficient to "compensate" for a revamp of Crafted items that would make crafting to be "on par" with Looted Legendary items....

What is the problem with crafting now ?

That looted, Legendary items are better, far better as crafted items saved Reforged Luck items and a few Weapons.

Therefore, the "market" for Crafted items is much reduced and players who play Crafters as their "Main", may have trouble being able to "make a living" in Sosaria....

Now, if a Crafting Revamp would then have the scope and goal to again permit to Crafters to make items that would be "competitive" with the best Legendary Looted items out there, I think that this ability should be "compensated" with some checks and balances....

The checks and balances that I see is, would be increased complexity in the "how to" Learning processes involved as well as in the Crafting times.

In Real Life, usually, Professions which require a longer and more intensive study time yield better salaries.... why shouldn't it be the same for Ultima Online ?

If we want, as I think we should, bring back to Crafters the ability to be able to make items that were to compete with high end Legendary looted items, this increased and profitable ability should come with ALSO an increased effort in Learning the "how to", as well as in the time that it would take to actually make those items.

Otherwise, we would end up with the current scenario, but reversed....

If Crafting was to be simplified, what would players do ?

My guess is that players would just rush to their Crafters' characters and craft whatever high end items they may need or want and forget about going hunting for them as Looted high end items....

Basically, just like now looted Legendary items make crafted ones obsolete and a waste of time to make, if Crafting was made a simplified process, but yielding still high end items of a comparable usefullness and power as looted Legendary items, the changed scenario would see players only create these items through Crafting and no longer go hunting to loot for them....

The current inbalance between Crafted and Looted items would remain, entirely, only as reversed to what it is now.

This is why I insist that Crafting for high end items should be made a complex and difficult, time consuming process, to be able to then maintain a balance in between Crafted high end items and Looted high end items.

Anything different, to my opinion, would create inbalances in between these 2 different ways to have access to high end items.

That is at least the way I see it.

My crafter was a support character to keep my pvper and pvmers going.

I used to build a suit, go out and pvp, lose it, come back, make another - But you could always remake with the same Stats!! Being able to make what you actually want is a key part of crafting - NOT randomness.

I agree Crafting should be a main staple of UO, that has got lost along the wayside.

It cannot be made any more complicated, it is already complicated enough - I do all 8 BOD types, and enjoy them - that is the maximum complicated it should be allowed to get.

I don't currently make anything anymore, even though I have all Crafting skills. I don't want to put all that time and effort in, to get something Random. If I were to make something, I'd have planned it first, and know exactly what I am out to get. When you make a building, or an item of clothing, you don't gather all the resources, then throw them together, and express surprise at the outcome - you make something definite.

I'd like to see crafting use the Imbuing regs and material resources, to produce greater reforged style gear, that is not randomly generated, and probably have boosted stats to compete with pvm loot properties, which I also never collect because it is so random and stupid.

We are playing a game for enjoyment and to relax.  Please do not try to mimic real life into a game as @popps has suggested.

KISS Keep It Simple Stupid

There is an easy solution to make crafted items somewhat better than looted items:

Add the "cursed" property to any item with property weights higher than what can be crafted.

Done. You could still have your awesome suits with a ridiculous number of mods but eventually you'll lose it and need to get another one. The fact is that any item worth keeping stays in the game essentially forever and nothing ever really gets lost or destroyed. Cursing all of these "elite" loot items would be a step in the right direction to fix that.  

Bilbo said:

We are playing a game for enjoyment and to relax.  Please do not try to mimic real life into a game as @ popps has suggested.

KISS Keep It Simple Stupid

Unfortunately, at least to my viewing, it "simply" is NOT possible to keep Crafting simple "IF" the high end items which crafting were to be able to make where to be brought "on par" (as it should be to revamp Crafting, an important assett for Ultima Online) with those "Looted" High End Legendary items.....

I mean, if Crafting was something easy, and could produce items as good as Looted Legendary items if not better (as it should be, to my opinion....), WHY ON EARTH would any players want to fight and hope for a good drop when they could just make it ?

It simply cannot be, at least to my opinion.

YES, Crafting should absolutely be capable of creating same High End quality as Looted items to "beat" the current discrepancy which has players go hunto for drops and neglect Crafting, BUT, at the same time, Crafting cannot and should not be "made easy" because THEN, it would kill outright, to my opinion, the hunting for High End "Looted" items...

So, YES to High End Crafted Items of a comparable quality as Looted High End items BUT, at the expense of Crafting such higher end items being very complex, convoluted and a hard process to master, learn, and time consuming to produce.

Otherwise, if crafting was to be simplified, we'd see the same current inbalance between high end looted items and crafted items but, reversed....

At least, that is the way I see it.

Stinky_Pete said:

There is an easy solution to make crafted items somewhat better than looted items:

Add the "cursed" property to any item with property weights higher than what can be crafted.

Done. You could still have your awesome suits with a ridiculous number of mods but eventually you'll lose it and need to get another one. The fact is that any item worth keeping stays in the game essentially forever and nothing ever really gets lost or destroyed. Cursing all of these "elite" loot items would be a step in the right direction to fix that.  

Sorry but no.

That would be bringing, at least for those items, Felucca onto Trammel and it would not be welcomed by the majority of players....

If we want Crafting to make a real come back, it should be able to make High End items of a comparable quality as Looted ones and the drawback should not be losing them all the time where the resources and time invested to make them will be considerable and, I would imagine, the higher the quality of the Crafted item the most expensive the resources and time invested in the crafting would be....

Having them be cursed would mean losing all those Resources and Time spent and, if those items where purchased, UO Gold spent to buy them....

Who'd then be willing to spend any serious Gold purchasing them from Crafters when they would be labelled Cursed and, thus, be loosable easily?

It would not help Crafters to make a leaving.... which should be the goal of a Crafting revamp.... that revamp, to be able to give to Crafters again something to make which they can actually sell for good gold....

So, I am sorry but no, I do not think that forcing "cursed" on High End Crafted items would be a good idea at all....

Please re-read Stiny Pete's post, Popps. Pete is not suggesting that crafted items be cursed. 

Rorschach said:

Please re-read Stiny Pete's post, Popps. Pete is not suggesting that crafted items be cursed. 

Hmmm.... you mean he's referring the Cursed modifier to be added "only" to Looted items so that Crafted items "without" the Cursed modifier can actually have a market ?

In such a case, "depending" on the DELTA for the quality between Looted, "Cursed" items and regular "non cursed" Crafted items this "might" work but it would still depend very much on whether High End non-cursed Crafted items were to be "much inferior" to High End cursed Looted items as well as, how "often" these High End cursed Looted items, were to be obtainable as a drop....

What I am trying to say is, that if High End "cursed" Loot items where to be significantly superior to whatever High End could be crafted and, on top of that, they were to also be quite a common drop as Loot, I would imagine that players would STILL prefer the Looted High End items even if cursed, and,as a resultof this, Crafted High End items would still result in not having a market pretty much....

So, I imagine, it would be a "fine balance" here to be obtained which would depend very much on players' "tastes" and style of gameplay for the items which they would want to use....

Another possible "deterrant" that could be introduced to get players prefer Crafted items, even when a little "less good" as compared to Looted cursed items, would be to put in a mechanics where 90%+ of times, upon death of the character, cursed items would be looted by NPCs and the NPC would have to be killed to then retrieve them....

Although, the work around which players would probably resort to, to avoid that problem, would be to have "both" looted better cursed items AND a little lesser Crafted items with them and use the cursed items initially.... if they died and lost the cursed ones to NPCs, they would then put on the Crafted ones, albeit of a lesser quality, proceed to kill the NPCs that looted them, and recover those cursed items....

Still, in the long run it would become an annoying endeavour and many players could simply avoid the cursed ones and resort to the Crafted ones to avoid the extra weight to carry and the burden to have to always need to recover them upon the death of their character....

Other possible "work arounds" to compensate for the loss of Cursed High End looted items to NPCs grabbing them from the corpse of the player's character, would be players hunting in a group where, if their character dies and lost his/her cursed items to some NPCs, the other members of the group would focus on killing these NPCs to recover the looted cursed items from their corpses....

Still, as I said, it would depend much on how much of a "lesser quality" Crafted, non-cursed High End items would be possible to be as compared to cursed, High End looted items, as well as how "easy and frequent" as a drop, the Cursed High End looted items were made to be.

@Popps ;- I can completely agree with the sentiment that Crafting needs a boost. It is, and should be, one of the most fun, rewarding parts of UO - building your own suit, to make the characters you build, be able to go out and do stuff. It is even more rewarding, when you have done it yourself, with your own crafter.

I cannot agree that it needs to get more complicated. Lets take a step back, and actually look at what suit building currently entails.

If I take my Pure Dexxer, which is actually a really basic fun character - that the Devs helped fix the template massively by introducing the First Aid Belt, something I'd been begging for ages.

• 16 Armour Slots - to balance random properties (in many cases).
• +8 to +14 Properties per Item (Looted) +5 Properties Crafted.
• My Dexxer has attempted to Max out about 35 Properties, which is a massive feat of calculation.
• You can Imbue, and get gear that will wear down with 5 basic Properties. You can Greater Reforge and get nice gear that is fully repairable, but the Outcome is completely random (with 5? properties but can over cap some).
•  You can Enhance an Item - but not actually be able to see if a piece is Enhanced.
•  You have Material Property Bonuses.
• You have Racial Bonuses, and customisation, some parts convert, others don't.
•  You can tweak Resists/DCI through an Insane Refining process.
• Many of the Runic Tools you need for Crafting, you need to burn impossible amounts of Charges gained through the incredibly huge, varied and time consuming BOD process.
• You have to collect (some) Ingredients through a highly limited drop rate Peerless Boss system.
• You have to think about balancing Medable/Non Medable armours whether you max LMC to 55 or not.

You put all that together, and that was just off the top of my head, I've probably forgotten some aspects, and none of that is easy or simple. In fact, It is so complicated and time consuming, I believe there are only a couple of proper suit builders left in the entire game, who genuinely get it all. There is no point, anyone investing the mental energy to do this properly anymore, when you can just throw together random looted stuff that eclipses the Crafted gear that took all that knowledge and effort.

Cookie said:

@ Popps - I can completely agree with the sentiment that Crafting needs a boost. It is, and should be, one of the most fun, rewarding parts of UO - building your own suit, to make the characters you build, be able to go out and do stuff. It is even more rewarding, when you have done it yourself, with your own crafter.

I cannot agree that it needs to get more complicated. Lets take a step back, and actually look at what suit building currently entails.

If I take my Pure Dexxer, which is actually a really basic fun character - that the Devs helped fix the template massively by introducing the First Aid Belt, something I'd been begging for ages.

• 16 Armour Slots - to balance random properties (in many cases).
• +8 to +14 Properties per Item (Looted) +5 Properties Crafted.
• My Dexxer has attempted to Max out about 35 Properties, which is a massive feat of calculation.
• You can Imbue, and get gear that will wear down with 5 basic Properties. You can Greater Reforge and get nice gear that is fully repairable, but the Outcome is completely random (with 5? properties but can over cap some).
•  You can Enhance an Item - but not actually be able to see if a piece is Enhanced.
•  You have Material Property Bonuses.
• You have Racial Bonuses, and customisation, some parts convert, others don't.
•  You can tweak Resists/DCI through an Insane Refining process.
• Many of the Runic Tools you need for Crafting, you need to burn impossible amounts of Charges gained through the incredibly huge, varied and time consuming BOD process.
• You have to collect (some) Ingredients through a highly limited drop rate Peerless Boss system.
• You have to think about balancing Medable/Non Medable armours whether you max LMC to 55 or not.

You put all that together, and that was just off the top of my head, I've probably forgotten some aspects, and none of that is easy or simple. In fact, It is so complicated and time consuming, I believe there are only a couple of proper suit builders left in the entire game, who genuinely get it all. There is no point, anyone investing the mental energy to do this properly anymore, when you can just throw together random looted stuff that eclipses the Crafted gear that took all that knowledge and effort.

But @popps has only imbued items.  He has no idea how complicated crafting already is.  Stop confusing him with facts.  I challenged him to come up with ten 90 charge Barbed kits.  That would take him a year I bet.

Crafting has the time consuming and difficulty. It needs the boosts now!

@Pawain , I agree 100% not many people understand the whole process behind, like I mentioned before, I used to craft Max Luck suits and I used to charge a lot for it and people asked me, why so much and I tell them: 1st I went thru 1000 of charges to get that right piece, than you have 6 more pieces to craft, weapons, shields and all the time involved.
Anyone can just google and look on the stratics the pages and pages of guides and excel sheets on how to, what to use.
Even nowadays, the suits that I make with legendaries, I still open my excel and put everything on it and check what is missing, it is time consume, than you have imbuing, than you have enhance and you HAVE to use the metal forged after, because you dont want to loose all your work and yet you still open for mistakes, how many times i crafted a piece, imbued to just than realize I forgot to Pof. Hahah

Back when imbuing came out relic fragments were pretty rare making the properties on imbued gear that required them something special.  One thing that I think would provide a boost to crafting without too much of an overhaul would be to add a new unravel element.  It would only come from unraveling items with property weights above 1000 and require 120 imbuing and 120 in the skill of the items being unraveled (so platemail would require 120 imbuing and 120 blacksmith to get the element).

The new element would be applied to base crafted normal items (think reforging or Whetstones) and have 2 effects on the piece.  First it would apply a +75 resist bonus to the piece (think armslore bonus application).  Second it would allow 6 additional properties to be imbued and increase the imbuing cap to 800 points.

If the base piece was reforged instead of imbued it would increase the cap to 850 and use the legendary loot table caps for individual properties (MR4 instead of MR2, etc).

This would keep hunting for high level loot drops relevant and provide a mechanism to craft some higher level gear without over complicating things too much more.

The last thing we need is better gear than what we have now. The reason y'all always want better stuff is because there is already too much good stuff out there. They keep adding more HP to mobs to keep up with the power creep they created but that doesn't make the encounters more engaging, only longer. The best way to fix the whole issue is to make the "elite" looted gear temporary, and the crafted gear as the standard.

Stinky_Pete said:

The last thing we need is better gear than what we have now. The reason y'all always want better stuff is because there is already too much good stuff out there. They keep adding more HP to mobs to keep up with the power creep they created but that doesn't make the encounters more engaging, only longer. The best way to fix the whole issue is to make the "elite" looted gear temporary, and the crafted gear as the standard.

Couple of issues with this. Temporary? Why Temporary? Temporary is philosophically such a weak, negative mindset and zero fun. If you've worked for something, you want it to last. If you want Temporary - just delete all the "elite" stuff, I have no issues with it all being deleted and downgrade everything. The Suit is not meant to be the be all and the end point of the game, it is just a midpoint in building up to play the game. So why Temporary? Why have to keep going back there? There are already so many variations of suits needed for different events, and different characters we can never finish any in the first place. I don't have a certain geographical mentality of building stuff to last for 2 weeks. Are your Stats and Skills temporary - do they keep sliding backwards?

And no, didn't say we need better gear than we have now, I said I'd like Crafting to have a Boost. That can be by making the systems more cohesive, making them a bit more simple, fixing a few things, giving more choice and customisation - I certainly did not say they should hit +14 Property level, but, I do believe Crafting should be a viable Playstyle route to match PvM loot if a player wanted to go that way. If a player has put in the effort a PvMer has to get something, they should be able to get something as nice, and it can have more sentiment to certain players, if they built it themselves... (to last...!!).

Edit - Thinking about it, I realise you play on Siege, and your mindset fits there, but does not fit on production really. There is just so much more in terms of characters and gearing requirements on production. If we were back to Felucca old days, or Siege, I would have zero problem losing it all, and having to remake, but I don't want to have to do that, just to be an unnecessary time filler. That's the sort of con games with no content pull-off.

I believe that temporary gear is necessary to facilitate constant advancement. I often read people complaining that 99.9999999% of the loot they find is totally useless. Do you know why it's useless? Because the stuff that they have is better and will pretty much never need to be replaced. Temporary gear that is considerably better than crafted gear allows for those that want to have all of the "elite" gear to have it, but also requires constant maintenance to keep it (ie finding or buying new gear). It also puts demand on crafted gear as it would be the standard for suits due to it's more permanent status.

It would also add a new dimension to PvP. Someone with the best gear had better be able to fight as well because if not, he won't have that gear anymore. PvPers would have something to fight over and would have to be able to balance their skills with their gear.

So, I'll leave it at that. I agree that something has to be done to balance crafting and loot. I think my idea has merit as it is very simple and solves multiple issues. Some may think otherwise. Either way I can assure you that making things more complex, making better gear than we have now, or making craftable gear better is not the answer.

leave the randomness alone but apply it to every skill so you're a mage and want to cast flame strike boom create food you're a fierce swordsman i shall swing at that dragon wait not my horse the dragon. i am the mightiest of tamers watch my GD kill the pipper wait not my guild mate aaarrrggg when the randomness of crafting is applied to everything it shows how  ridiculous it is if i want to craft a sword of noob slaying i should be able yes make it hard make me need the hearts of twenty ogre lords but let me do it !

popps said:

Bilbo said:

We are playing a game for enjoyment and to relax.  Please do not try to mimic real life into a game as @ popps has suggested.

KISS Keep It Simple Stupid

Unfortunately, at least to my viewing, it "simply" is NOT possible to keep Crafting simple "IF" the high end items which crafting were to be able to make where to be brought "on par" (as it should be to revamp Crafting, an important assett for Ultima Online) with those "Looted" High End Legendary items.....

I mean, if Crafting was something easy, and could produce items as good as Looted Legendary items if not better (as it should be, to my opinion....), WHY ON EARTH would any players want to fight and hope for a good drop when they could just make it ?

It simply cannot be, at least to my opinion.

YES, Crafting should absolutely be capable of creating same High End quality as Looted items to "beat" the current discrepancy which has players go hunto for drops and neglect Crafting, BUT, at the same time, Crafting cannot and should not be "made easy" because THEN, it would kill outright, to my opinion, the hunting for High End "Looted" items...

So, YES to High End Crafted Items of a comparable quality as Looted High End items BUT, at the expense of Crafting such higher end items being very complex, convoluted and a hard process to master, learn, and time consuming to produce.

Otherwise, if crafting was to be simplified, we'd see the same current inbalance between high end looted items and crafted items but, reversed....

At least, that is the way I see it.

Here is the problem with your way of viewing things @popps ; You have no clue what to do with or how to do crafting in its current state and every time you ask for help and someone offers it we get yet another one of your "to my viewing" post questioning them, well why isn't it this way.  Now lets say the Devs do what you have requested (GOD forbid) it is almost a %100 chance that you will post now how do you do this and a %100 chance that we will get a "in my viewing" reply to someone trying to help you.

Here is one for you. How about you write a very detailed point paper on exactly what you want done and at the same time tell all the UO Crafters exactly how to do every mod/change you want added/changed to the current Crafting system.  This needs to include detailed instructions and also where and how to get all needed material to do your requested additions/changes.

Please forward all this information to the Devs and the people that maintain the UO Wilki.

ActionElly said:

It's already a pain that most of the good stuff has to be constantly repaired, since it's typically brittle, antiqued or cursed already. All my pieces that's greater artifact and up already have these tags.

I understand that you would like crafting to be a niche thing where only a few diehards are willing to fool with it, as I see it we already have that with reforging.

I'd agree with @ Cookie, in that the randomness should be removed so that people can once again craft their perfect suit.

This would make crafting fun and viable again, as you would see so many different suits for all the different contents of the game.

Also I made a suggestion for daily dungeon and hunting quests on stratics, which would give a very good reason to continue to do old content for rewards instead of more powerful armor that would hurt crafting.

In that post I suggested tiered crafting recipes that would require resources from different bosses and mobs. The best recipes Mythical, would require 120 skill plus all the resources. This could potentially be made a bit more difficult...but

For example:

The daily challenges would be quests you can pick up in Brit Commons. Each day the quests would be several random dungeons or monsters in different areas that include free content areas and the High Sea/ TOL areas. As well as both Fel and Ilsh champ spawns.

The challenges are only good for 1 day, so you can't save them up. You would need to pick them up each day and delete any old ones you didn't finish.

Once completed you would acquire points for the daily dungeon master npc in Brit Commons.

Some dungeons and monsters could offer more points depending on level and difficulty.

Things like Kill 10 blood elementals
Kill Travesty
Hunt and kill 50 earth elementals
Kill Barracoon the Piper

You could also make it to where subscribers get more dailies than EJ accounts.

Create new rewards that entice players to want to do this and to buy TOL and HighSeas

Such as the:

--Recipes: Mythical crafting recipes that require items from each monster to create it; something from Dreadhorn, Mel, Savage skin paint, etc. Mythical Sword, Mythical Staff, Mythical Shield and lesser versions such as exalted, grandmaster and legendary.

Create new rewards that entice players to want to do this and to buy TOL and HighSeas
Such as the:
--Recipes: Mythical crafting recipes that require items from each monster to create it; something from Dreadhorn, Mel, Savage skin paint, etc. Mythical Sword, Mythical Staff, Mythical Shield and lesser versions such as exalted, grandmaster and legendary.

Sorry but I cannot agree.

Why ?

Because it would again be forcing a Crafter, a NON-fighting character, to HAVE TO fight in order to get Crating Recipes to better, higher end items....

It would be, once again, at the benefit of players who use Crafters' characters as "mules" in support of their Fighting, "Main" characters....

No, sorry.

I would like to see Crafting and Crafters get a role of its own, once again, in Ultima Online, WITHOUT being anymore "so much" dependant on fighting and fighters....

That's why I much prefer having difficulties and hardship for Crafting be coming from a more complex and complicated mental and learning process as well as a time consuming production activity rather then keeping on forcing Crafting and Crafters be totally subject to Figthing and fighters...

To my opinion, Crafters and Crafting deserve better then being mere "Mules" at the service of fighting and fighters' characters....

Just bragging here.  I found this Wednesday night from Corgul.  Most encounters drop Mage armor. All the sea Bosses drop Leg Mage armor. This dropped as medable armor. I removed it and blessed it. I got lucky That the Mystic and Haste gave 7 split perfectly properties and I got high resists.
The best armor I have ever looted.


You can easily build a sweet dex suit around this piece.

Thanks @Kyronix @Bleak ; I have loved all the events this year!!!! 

popps said:

Sorry but I cannot agree.

Why ?

Because it would again be forcing a Crafter, a NON-fighting character, to HAVE TO fight in order to get Crating Recipes to better, higher end items....

It would be, once again, at the benefit of players who use Crafters' characters as "mules" in support of their Fighting, "Main" characters....

No, sorry.

I would like to see Crafting and Crafters get a role of its own, once again, in Ultima Online, WITHOUT being anymore "so much" dependant on fighting and fighters....

That's why I much prefer having difficulties and hardship for Crafting be coming from a more complex and complicated mental and learning process as well as a time consuming production activity rather then keeping on forcing Crafting and Crafters be totally subject to Figthing and fighters...

To my opinion, Crafters and Crafting deserve better then being mere "Mules" at the service of fighting and fighters' characters....

So in other words you don't want any crafting resources to come from hunting at all?

Historically speaking, crafters were born out of necessity - for war. Period speaking (and yes, I research this stuff just for fun), not one craft would be around if it didn't support the war-machine of dynasties past. From farming to tinkering, smithing to pottery, even embroidery (which many consider being frivolous) has root and meaning in warcraft.

Smithing - obvious... making armor and weapons
Fletching - obvious... making bows and arrows used in war and hunting
Tinkering - making adornments for rank and hierarchy, and as tech developed, making the "finer things" used in muskets and war machines
Tailoring - making uniforms and clothing the armies and their families and all the supporting people around the fighters
Embroidery - marking said uniforms to show rank, class, creed, faction; also making flags and banners (very much done with embroidery)
Farming - food! horses! cattle! veggies (no scurvy on yon navy vessels!)
Carpentry - along with Tinkers and Smiths, making all those glorious war machines (trebuchet, ballista, cannons) and housing said garrison, repairing the castle, making furniture for the officers and nobles and what not...
Pottery - Without clay pottery, how do you think the Greeks got water from the rivers to the battlefields? The Byzantines made clay plating for their armor!

I can go on and bore the masses... but in all honesty, in a game - the crafter IS the supporting character. 

It is up to a Player to decide how he/she wants to play their crafter... and I for one DID play my crafter as a main... until it got so very boring that it got pointless to be a crafter. Now... she is more of a merchant, only crafting what is needed periodically and placed on vendors for others to find. And I don't really play Kirthag (who really did start out as a tailor) much anymore either - she is more the Lady of her fiefdom and only makes appearances when needed. 

It is not about the systems for the skills, it is about the community's NEED of the solo-crafter... of which doesn't exist in UO any longer.

A sad truth, but still truth. 

ActionElly said:

popps said:

Sorry but I cannot agree.

Why ?

Because it would again be forcing a Crafter, a NON-fighting character, to HAVE TO fight in order to get Crating Recipes to better, higher end items....

It would be, once again, at the benefit of players who use Crafters' characters as "mules" in support of their Fighting, "Main" characters....

No, sorry.

I would like to see Crafting and Crafters get a role of its own, once again, in Ultima Online, WITHOUT being anymore "so much" dependant on fighting and fighters....

That's why I much prefer having difficulties and hardship for Crafting be coming from a more complex and complicated mental and learning process as well as a time consuming production activity rather then keeping on forcing Crafting and Crafters be totally subject to Figthing and fighters...

To my opinion, Crafters and Crafting deserve better then being mere "Mules" at the service of fighting and fighters' characters....

So in other words you don't want any crafting resources to come from hunting at all?

Not say "any", but definitively not "all".....

I can find it as tolerable that a minority of resources necessary for Crafting might come from fighting, but certainly, at least to my opinion, the grandest majority of what Crafters would need to make a living should definitively come from non-fighting ways and mechanics....

Otherwise, Crafters would stay (as they are), "subject" to Fighters and totally depend on fighters for their Crafting needs.

Which, it usually ends up, with Crafting (and Recipes) prices going up the roof and beyond.....

With an extremely reduced market, because most players have crafting "mules" and, thus, are self sufficient for their needs, someone please explain to me HOW a Crafter character being played as a "Main" chracter (that is, not in support of a Fighting character), could ever afford paying for Recipes 30+ millions of UO Gold and for ingredients/resources sometimes very high prices....

If the number of their buyers is very much reduced and limited (because too many players have their own crafting "mules"....), how could these Crafters being played as "Mains" be able to recover the huge expenses done to purchase Recipes and Ingredients from fighters, fundamental to the existance of their Crafting Profession ?

Kirthag said:

Historically speaking, crafters were born out of necessity - for war. Period speaking (and yes, I research this stuff just for fun), not one craft would be around if it didn't support the war-machine of dynasties past. From farming to tinkering, smithing to pottery, even embroidery (which many consider being frivolous) has root and meaning in warcraft.

Smithing - obvious... making armor and weapons
Fletching - obvious... making bows and arrows used in war and hunting
Tinkering - making adornments for rank and hierarchy, and as tech developed, making the "finer things" used in muskets and war machines
Tailoring - making uniforms and clothing the armies and their families and all the supporting people around the fighters
Embroidery - marking said uniforms to show rank, class, creed, faction; also making flags and banners (very much done with embroidery)
Farming - food! horses! cattle! veggies (no scurvy on yon navy vessels!)
Carpentry - along with Tinkers and Smiths, making all those glorious war machines (trebuchet, ballista, cannons) and housing said garrison, repairing the castle, making furniture for the officers and nobles and what not...
Pottery - Without clay pottery, how do you think the Greeks got water from the rivers to the battlefields? The Byzantines made clay plating for their armor!

I can go on and bore the masses... but in all honesty, in a game - the crafter IS the supporting character. 

It is up to a Player to decide how he/she wants to play their crafter... and I for one DID play my crafter as a main... until it got so very boring that it got pointless to be a crafter. Now... she is more of a merchant, only crafting what is needed periodically and placed on vendors for others to find. And I don't really play Kirthag (who really did start out as a tailor) much anymore either - she is more the Lady of her fiefdom and only makes appearances when needed. 

It is not about the systems for the skills, it is about the community's NEED of the solo-crafter... of which doesn't exist in UO any longer.

A sad truth, but still truth. 

A sad truth, but still truth. 

I concur that it is a sad thing that Crafters in Ultima Online might have been diminished to a mere "Mules" role....

My question to the Developers is, though, do we HAVE TO accept this sad state of things ?

In their ingenuity, creativity and ability to shape the online digital World of Ultima Online, wouldn't it "perhaps", just perhaps, be possible for Developers to change the status of Crafters and Crafting in Ultima Online and "re-shape" things so that, ONCE AGAIN, Crafting and Crafters in Ultima Online could regain a more relevant status, "on par" with that of Fighting characters and from other Professions, and not just be seen as a character that makes stuff for one's own "Main" Fighting character ?

What I would like to see, is Crafting made something which ONLY, or at least MOSTLY, those players TRULY motivated to play a Crafter most of their online time, would be willing to play with.

All other players, not finding it justified to put so much as effort and time into Crafting, would THEN need to resort out to "other" players playing a Crafter as their Main, in order to get their Crafting needs be covered....

Personally, the way I see such a thing become possible, would be making Crafting a complex and more difficult process to have to be learned (and thus put considerable effort and time into learning it) as well as the productive processed to make High End crafted items take considerable time.

All things, making ONLY those players really wanting to play a Crafter as their Main then do it with all of the other players be sufficiently deterred from wanting to play a Crafter to let other players do it and so provide that Market which Crafters would need to exist as a Profession in Ultima Online.

At least, that's the way I see it.

You're looping again Popps.... and you've missed my point. I don't always reply, but I do read.

Merus said:

WornOutYourTool said:

Wow, a poops thread I can actually agree with, times are a changing.

More complexity, more power and more time to crafting!

You don't like it? Then you don't appreciate the process and craft.  I 'mAiN a CrAfTeR, I enjoy that the suits I make take weeks, tons of different materials and layers of processes to complete.  Pride of accomplishment for the effort, adventure of scouring the world for different resources and appreciation for the time I spent gathering all the knowledge to do so.

If you craft to support your other characters, yeah you aren't into it and don't want it.

I have characters to support and test my crafters.  I am into it.

You forgot to use your sarcasm font! 

Or this...

Yeah everyone here knows exactly what they're talking about and indeed does know best on how every one should play in sandbox games.  99.99% of players agree.  /s

@popps here is what you need to be a crafter.  I only have a few tools in the picture. 
Some items are not crafting related and I am missing some items. Refinements are not pictured.

Explain how this is not complicated enough.

popps said:

Sorry but I cannot agree.

Why ?

Because it would again be forcing a Crafter, a NON-fighting character, to HAVE TO fight in order to get Crating Recipes to better, higher end items....

It would be, once again, at the benefit of players who use Crafters' characters as "mules" in support of their Fighting, "Main" characters....

No, sorry.

I would like to see Crafting and Crafters get a role of its own, once again, in Ultima Online, WITHOUT being anymore "so much" dependant on fighting and fighters....

That's why I much prefer having difficulties and hardship for Crafting be coming from a more complex and complicated mental and learning process as well as a time consuming production activity rather then keeping on forcing Crafting and Crafters be totally subject to Figthing and fighters...

To my opinion, Crafters and Crafting deserve better then being mere "Mules" at the service of fighting and fighters' characters....

4.       How would you make crafting more complicated and time consuming than it already is?

There are players who have been playing a crafter for 22 years and they are not finished. lol

Pawain said:

@ popps here is what you need to be a crafter.  I only have a few tools in the picture. 
Some items are not crafting related and I am missing some items. Refinements are not pictured.

Explain how this is not complicated enough.

Do I need to bring up how, just as an example, the Crafting Gump has been changed to "ease up" the crafting process by introducing buttons like make Max ?

Or, perhaps, the various Crafting stations ?

My point being, that Crafting, over the Years, has been on a trend to be made "more simple", more "streamlined", a faster process....

I am of the idea that this simplifying trend is a VERY dangerous one..... because it makes Crafters become increasingly more subject to become mere "Mules" at the services of Fighing "main" characters and no longer characters being players as main, principal characters by players....

Sure, a number of Resources are needed to make different stuff, but once they are stocked up, how complicated, saved a few exceptions, is the making of things ?

Crafters will always be mules for players who have time to support more than 1 template.

Change all you want. I will have time to do crafting and fun stuff. So your changes are pointless.

Is your goal to make money on crafting and you think if it is changed by your means, you will be the only one that does it? So you will be making money.  All of your ideas are based on yourself.

You can make money with crafting now.  There are reforged Bukatos that go fro 70M each.

So clicking less has ruined crafting.... Ya  I think I am done here.

@popps said.

Sure, a number of Resources are needed to make different stuff, but once they are stocked up, how complicated, saved a few exceptions, is the making of things ?

You have not tried to reforge.  The complicated comes AFTER you gather the required ingredients. Gathering is just time consuming. 

Right now crafting is complicated and time consuming.  FACT

Why do you insist it is not?  Especially since you have never reforged.

Many players have skill mules.  Few players actually know all of the parts of crafting.  I have only dabbled with refinements.

popps said:

Do I need to bring up how, just as an example, the Crafting Gump has been changed to "ease up" the crafting process by introducing buttons like make Max ?

Or, perhaps, the various Crafting stations ?

My point being, that Crafting, over the Years, has been on a trend to be made "more simple", more "streamlined", a faster process....

I am of the idea that this simplifying trend is a VERY dangerous one..... because it makes Crafters become increasingly more subject to become mere "Mules" at the services of Fighing "main" characters and no longer characters being players as main, principal characters by players....

Sure, a number of Resources are needed to make different stuff, but once they are stocked up, how complicated, saved a few exceptions, is the making of things ?

They had to do a lot of this for players physical health reasons. Players were genuinely getting Carpal Tunnel Syndrome through the sheer volume of repetitive clicking going on.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Carpal-tunnel-syndrome/

So to be fair, these improvements had to be made to the crafting process. Switching it back, would not be cool. Players were being forced to script to protect their physical wellbeing. And whilst I am against scripting, I get why players do it for Gathering, and Crafting.

I really don't think you appreciate the volume, repetitive nature, and complication of crafting for what you can produce. (As I think it was Pawain who said - try for yourself to get 10x90 charge runic tools, to produce exactly the item you want, and then find you didn't get it, wait until you've done that process a few times. And @Pawain - I liked your picture of crafting items 🙂  )

There are so few crafters left now, not because it is too easy, but because it is too hard, and the rewards too little, and they don't have a place within the game really.

In my mind, there are more intelligent, more creative ways to improve Crafting, than just adding more Clicks, and more layers of Complication.

Pawain said:

There are players who have been playing a crafter for 22 years and they are not finished. lol

This....

I am still looking for "old" recipes (Elves do not like me). I refuse to go to ATL and buy them. Only recently got enough resources to make 100 runed switches (most of which will put on a vendor) to recharge the many talismans I use in crafting things.

And I'm still working on getting to 115 Imbuing... damn that skill is almost as bad as it was GMing smithing & tinkering when we only had Power Hour...

@Popps Going to add a bit, regarding the relationship between PvM and Crafting. I think I believe completely the opposite to you, but get back to the same place - Crafters should have a more pivotal role in UO.

In my mind, Hunters (PvMers) and Gatherers should mainly be hunting for Crafting resources. Yes - Gold can drop from monsters known for hoarding gold, but in reality, would Monsters be hoarding stashes of Legendary items? Yes Humanoids/other Intelligent/Magical species would I guess. Mostly, you would hunt monsters for a specific hide or ingredient.

So I almost believe, most gear drops should be removed from PvM, and the drops should be the Crafting resources. Then you bring these resources back to Crafters to make the gear. Yes, well designed, unique artefacts such as Crimson, Tangle, Slither etc, should come from Flavoured mobs etc - but there should be a storyline, and reason for that particular Monster for having it.

This way, you bring Crafters back into the game for real.

Cookie said:

@ Popps Going to add a bit, regarding the relationship between PvM and Crafting. I think I believe completely the opposite to you, but get back to the same place - Crafters should have a more pivotal role in UO.

In my mind, Hunters (PvMers) and Gatherers should mainly be hunting for Crafting resources. Yes - Gold can drop from monsters known for hoarding gold, but in reality, would Monsters be hoarding stashes of Legendary items? Yes Humanoids/other Intelligent/Magical species would I guess. Mostly, you would hunt monsters for a specific hide or ingredient.

So I almost believe, most gear drops should be removed from PvM, and the drops should be the Crafting resources. Then you bring these resources back to Crafters to make the gear. Yes, well designed, unique artefacts such as Crimson, Tangle, Slither etc, should come from Flavoured mobs etc - but there should be a storyline, and reason for that particular Monster for having it.

This way, you bring Crafters back into the game for real.

This could easily be a weeks at a time story line. Get ingredients each week. At the end have them to craft an item.  A shirt with stats. The kind you can wear with full armor.  Or a Kilt with stats.
It's just like other UO adventures, Whetstone etc. 

Is your goal to make money on crafting and you think if it is changed by your means, you will be the only one that does it? So you will be making money.  All of your ideas are based on yourself.

Cookie said:

popps said:

Do I need to bring up how, just as an example, the Crafting Gump has been changed to "ease up" the crafting process by introducing buttons like make Max ?

Or, perhaps, the various Crafting stations ?

My point being, that Crafting, over the Years, has been on a trend to be made "more simple", more "streamlined", a faster process....

I am of the idea that this simplifying trend is a VERY dangerous one..... because it makes Crafters become increasingly more subject to become mere "Mules" at the services of Fighing "main" characters and no longer characters being players as main, principal characters by players....

Sure, a number of Resources are needed to make different stuff, but once they are stocked up, how complicated, saved a few exceptions, is the making of things ?

They had to do a lot of this for players physical health reasons. Players were genuinely getting Carpal Tunnel Syndrome through the sheer volume of repetitive clicking going on.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Carpal-tunnel-syndrome/

So to be fair, these improvements had to be made to the crafting process. Switching it back, would not be cool. Players were being forced to script to protect their physical wellbeing. And whilst I am against scripting, I get why players do it for Gathering, and Crafting.

I really don't think you appreciate the volume, repetitive nature, and complication of crafting for what you can produce. (As I think it was Pawain who said - try for yourself to get 10x90 charge runic tools, to produce exactly the item you want, and then find you didn't get it, wait until you've done that process a few times. And @ Pawain - I liked your picture of crafting items 🙂  )

There are so few crafters left now, not because it is too easy, but because it is too hard, and the rewards too little, and they don't have a place within the game really.

In my mind, there are more intelligent, more creative ways to improve Crafting, than just adding more Clicks, and more layers of Complication.

There are so few crafters left now, not because it is too easy, but because it is too hard, and the rewards too little, and they don't have a place within the game really.

 My opinion about the shortage of Crafters is instead another.... and is due to Looted items being far better, for the most part, as compared to Crafted items (with a few exceptions....).

It simply is not worth the hassle to craft items now, better just go out and get drops....

Cookie said:

@ Popps Going to add a bit, regarding the relationship between PvM and Crafting. I think I believe completely the opposite to you, but get back to the same place - Crafters should have a more pivotal role in UO.

In my mind, Hunters (PvMers) and Gatherers should mainly be hunting for Crafting resources. Yes - Gold can drop from monsters known for hoarding gold, but in reality, would Monsters be hoarding stashes of Legendary items? Yes Humanoids/other Intelligent/Magical species would I guess. Mostly, you would hunt monsters for a specific hide or ingredient.

So I almost believe, most gear drops should be removed from PvM, and the drops should be the Crafting resources. Then you bring these resources back to Crafters to make the gear. Yes, well designed, unique artefacts such as Crimson, Tangle, Slither etc, should come from Flavoured mobs etc - but there should be a storyline, and reason for that particular Monster for having it.

This way, you bring Crafters back into the game for real.

Question.

How would then Crafters starting their business be able to afford the many millions of UO Gold which likely Fighters would ask them for Crafting Recipes and Resources ?

It would be a catch 22 scenario.... Crafters needing millions of UO Gold to start their business (recipes are a must as well as ingredients to make anything) and not having them.....

Marge said:

Is your goal to make money on crafting and you think if it is changed by your means, you will be the only one that does it? So you will be making money.  All of your ideas are based on yourself.

You hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what he wants. When you trudge through his other post you can see how he's tried it with other professions too.

Not really, while I may not have platinums I have enough to afford what I may need or want....

My argument is really that of being able to see once again Crafting become a Main playing role in Ultima Online, and not just a mere "Mule" character subject to mostly or only supplying one's own Fighters' in game crafting needs....

Why should Crafting be relegated to a SECONDARY role in Ultima Online ?

What is wrong, if I may ask, about wanting it to have its rightfull Role as a Primary, MAIN playing Role just like Fighting has ?

Pawain said:

4.       How would you make crafting more complicated and time consuming than it already is?

There are players who have been playing a crafter for 22 years and they are not finished. lol

AMEN

Why cant all your toons be fighting crafters then? Make a fencing tailor that gathers the resources and then makes the item. I had one for years - it was fun.

Marge said:

Is your goal to make money on crafting and you think if it is changed by your means, you will be the only one that does it? So you will be making money.  All of your ideas are based on yourself.

You hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what he wants. When you trudge through his other post you can see how he's tried it with other professions too.

AMEN

Marge said:

Why cant all your toons be fighting crafters then? Make a fencing tailor that gathers the resources and then makes the item. I had one for years - it was fun.

Ha I had a swords miner/smith. Smelt while in combat.

Seriously, crafting does need a bump. What that would be is just a matter of opinion.

Marge said:

Is your goal to make money on crafting and you think if it is changed by your means, you will be the only one that does it? So you will be making money.  All of your ideas are based on yourself.

You hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what he wants. When you trudge through his other post you can see how he's tried it with other professions too.

Popps is just gonna have to Samp up like the rest of us!

popps said:

My argument is really that of being able to see once again Crafting become a Main playing role in Ultima Online, and not just a mere "Mule" character subject to mostly or only supplying one's own Fighters' in game crafting needs....

Why should Crafting be relegated to a SECONDARY role in Ultima Online ?

What is wrong, if I may ask, about wanting it to have its rightfull Role as a Primary, MAIN playing Role just like Fighting has ?

Crafting needs a bump .  Thats is a fact.  I am totally for making better items.

Crafting can be a main playing role now: Or Primary, Main.  (you are just  spouting synonyms)
If you want to be a crafter right now you can easily find things to craft for others.  Jewelry, 100 % LRC 70 resist suits.  dexxer suits, Weapons crafting is in dire need. 
Some players do not know that you can improve their template with crafted items. Refinements: Few know what they are or how they can help a template. I could spend hours making bracelets and rings for players that I see daily, but I aint got that much time or desire. 

If someone wants to 100% be a crafter, or T hunter, or Fisher or Pirate or etc  they can do that now.  BUT

All roles in UO are secondary:
We all can use something from another role of the game. That is how the community is bound.
UO has progressed just like RL.  You dont have to see all the roles. You can order online.

Making crafting only accessible to players that only do crafting is not going to happen. It goes against the mission of UO.

Last reply.  You are just saying the same thing over and over trying to build on repetition., but your foundation is FALSE. Crafting can be a full time role in UO.  

Marge said:

Why cant all your toons be fighting crafters then? Make a fencing tailor that gathers the resources and then makes the item. I had one for years - it was fun.

I need to conclude that I failed in making myself understood if the suggestion you make is to "make a fighting crafter"....

My argument is that a crafter should NOT mandatorily "require" Fighting skills (or an alternate character to do the fighting....).

A Crafter should, as I see it, be able to perfectly and normally be able to carry out his/her Profession WITHOUT any need to resort to fighting or be "subject" to Fighters' moods for him/her be able to even carry out his/her Profession (ingredients needed to craft) or even get it started (recipes needed to make items...).

We have a totally, 180 degrees different vision of what Crafting should be, it looks to me.

To my viewing, Crafting should be permitted to be a STANDALONE Profession that is not "that much" dependant on Fighting content to exist....

Pawain said:

popps said:

My argument is really that of being able to see once again Crafting become a Main playing role in Ultima Online, and not just a mere "Mule" character subject to mostly or only supplying one's own Fighters' in game crafting needs....

Why should Crafting be relegated to a SECONDARY role in Ultima Online ?

What is wrong, if I may ask, about wanting it to have its rightfull Role as a Primary, MAIN playing Role just like Fighting has ?

Crafting needs a bump .  Thats is a fact.  I am totally for making better items.

Crafting can be a main playing role now: Or Primary, Main.  (you are just  spouting synonyms)
If you want to be a crafter right now you can easily find things to craft for others.  Jewelry, 100 % LRC 70 resist suits.  dexxer suits, Weapons crafting is in dire need. 
Some players do not know that you can improve their template with crafted items. Refinements: Few know what they are or how they can help a template. I could spend hours making bracelets and rings for players that I see daily, but I aint got that much time or desire. 

If someone wants to 100% be a crafter, or T hunter, or Fisher or Pirate or etc  they can do that now.  BUT

All roles in UO are secondary:
We all can use something from another role of the game. That is how the community is bound.
UO has progressed just like RL.  You dont have to see all the roles. You can order online.

Making crafting only accessible to players that only do crafting is not going to happen. It goes against the mission of UO.

Last reply.  You are just saying the same thing over and over trying to build on repetition., but your foundation is FALSE. Crafting can be a full time role in UO.  

If you want to be a crafter right now you can easily find things to craft for others.  Jewelry, 100 % LRC 70 resist suits.  dexxer suits, Weapons crafting is in dire need. 

This is not so, I disagree.

Saved a few, VERY limited exceptions (high end Luck pieces, some Weapons), there is hardly any realistic demand for Crafting services, certainly, not enough for a non-fighting, primary played Crafter character to be able to afford the tens upon tens of millions of Recipes and the tens or hundreds of thousands which some resources needed for Crafting cost, prices imposed by Fighters....

Couple this with the fact that many players have BOTH Crafters and Fighters and, thus, have all their Crafting needs be covered and are fully self-sufficient, and I do not see where this Crafting "Market" might be....

Not large enough, at least, to permit to Crafter to recover the investment of 30, 40 millions of UO Gold for 1 single Crafting Recipe or the stocking up of really expensive Resources some of which are priced by Fighters quite outrageously....

Customers are quite demanding, and when they want something they want it NOW, waiting for them is usually not an option....

Therefore, since a Crafter has no clue what they might be asked to make by a customer, this means that they HAVE TO stock up any and all resources, and in quite a good quantity, so as to be ready for when that customer comes with that particular item request.

Well, I got news..... the stocking up for many expensive Resources (because of their prices gouged up by Fighters) does not come cheap.... it can be VERY daunting to a starting Crafter or one that has not a large UO Bank account....

All of this, KILLS Crafting and limits it to what it is now, pretty much players having a Fighter Main AND a Crafter "Mule" and being self-sufficient in their Crafting needs....

No Market or hardly any for Crafting.

I am sorry, but I remember Crafting being something TOTALLY different in Ultima Online..... back in 1997 and during those initial Years, Crafting WAS a thing, Crafters COULD very well be a Primary Profession for a player who wanted to play a Crafter.....

Then everything changed, and Crafting was made totally subject to Fighting and Fighters' moods....

Well, others may like this, I don't.

I would like to see Crafting make a FULL come back as a Primary playing style in Ultima Online WITHOUT Crafters and Crafting being held HOSTAGE by Fighters and fighting content....

Hi @Popps - I don't think there is any completely standalone skill in UO, and that is not the point, there are meant to be symbiotic relationships between the professions. That is what helps give them all a role to play within the game.

PvPers have the powerscrolls, Trammies have all the Artefact and Loot drops. The relationships get strained when it feels out of balance - for example Sampires being able to complete most game content solo. Scripters being able to gain so much more than normal players. Crafters having not so much of a role in the game. I think PvMers should be pegged back on Loot drops, and they should be gathering ingredients for Crafters, who then make the best gear. In my mind, Crafted gear, should certainly be the best gear, not the other way around. Unless it is a specific Mob storyline based special artefact drop such as Ornament of the Magician - (the best Artefact of all time by the way).

Crafters are not going to be able to magically produce all their ingredients and resources. It is normal practice, for them to start their path as Gatherers, to even gather enough to complete their training. Then it was quite normal for them to pick up a weapon, to hunt some of the basic mobs they needed for other ingredients. Then it would be quite normal for Hunters to have to go out and earn the harder ingredients, such as Peerless, or Stygian Abyss ingredients - all these parts are already in the game.

The problem is, as you say, and I have said in different words, PvM loot is just so much better, and Crafting is too intricate and produces way too little. So you either find ways to boost crafting, boost the items they can make, or reduce what can be gained in PvM. The Intricacy of Crafting, and many of the methods of gaining ingredients are fine (with the exception of the complete randomness you get from the best method of crafting - Greater Reforging) - it does not need to be made more difficult, or have more clicks added.

I think most of us agree Crafting needs a boost. The issue is, how to get there, from where we are now. PvM loot got too strong and unbalanced the game. Players don't want to see even stronger loot, so that rules out bumping the stats on Crafted gear (for some - for others this is OK). Players don't like seeing things nerfed, so it makes it harder to peg back PvM loot - which is what they have been doing in my opinion (We've gone from very common 14 property drops, back to what seems a fixed 8 property drops), it seems like that to me. Players like me, just say delete all the PvM loot, that's extreme, and in practice probably cannot be achieved, and would cause uproar, so whilst I say stuff like that, I get that it is not really an option for the developers.

I think the Developers need to come up with their plan/vision for Crafters in UO, communicate it, so the players know their path, then start implementing it. I don't think a Crafter can go completely Standalone, though as Pawain has said, it is still perfectly possible to function with a Crafter as your main. It is in fact still my second most used character after my PvP Mage. My Mage goes out and does all the exciting stuff, my Crafter chills out in the castle doing stuff. My PvP Dexxer has 3rd most usage, followed by Dungeon Rogue, Thrower, Tamer, Mystic in that order.

Crafters shouldn't have to rely on fighters, but fighters must rely on crafters?  

From my own point of view.

I don't have any 'mules'
I do have crafters in my family - they are as worthy of respect as my hunter characters. 
My hunters hunt for my crafters, my crafters craft for my hunters. It is a symbiotic relationship.

I no more consider my crafters to be 'mules' than I considered myself to be a 'mule' when I was making clothes for myself and my family when we were all younger.

I would be very upset if I found myself excluded from that part of the game because I prefer a more varied playstyle.

Petra_Fyde said:

Crafters shouldn't have to rely on fighters, but fighters must rely on crafters?  

From my own point of view.

I don't have any 'mules'
I do have crafters in my family - they are as worthy of respect as my hunter characters. 
My hunters hunt for my crafters, my crafters craft for my hunters. It is a symbiotic relationship.

I no more consider my crafters to be 'mules' than I considered myself to be a 'mule' when I was making clothes for myself and my family when we were all younger.

I would be very upset if I found myself excluded from that part of the game because I prefer a more varied playstyle.

Crafters shouldn't have to rely on fighters, but fighters must rely on crafters?  

I beg your pardon ?

Don't Fighters have "Loot Drops" for quite some cool items from Lesser Magic Items all the way up to Legendary items and Artifacts with unique modifiers ?

It looks to me that Fighters can very well do without Crafters......

While Crafters, currently, have simply not an alternative since it is Fighters who get from fighting the best Recipes and the most usefull resources necessary for Crafting without which there is quite a lot of no High End Crafting, it looks to me that Fighters can very well find their cool items without bothering with Crafters, for the most part.....

Marge said:

What she meant was that YOU want to flip the script and have fighters rely on crafters.

Besides, all this is really moot for next year's arc anyway. I'm sure the developers have next year outlined already.

HOW SO ?????

I must have a problem in making myself be understood in what I mean because people keep misunderstanding my argument.....

If Crafted items, with a Crafting revamp, will be put ON PAR with Looted Items, NOT BETTER (mind you, NOW, Looted Items ARE better as compared to what items Crafters can make, saved a few, VERY limited exceptions....), please explain to me HOW ON EARTH will then Fighters will become subject to Crafters if they will ALWAYS have the alternative to go fight and Loot for their drops RATHER THEN go buy them from Crafters....

It is NOW that Crafters are subject to Fighters, assuming that a Crafters' revamp will empower Crafters to make same quality items as Looted ones, Fighters will STILL have the ability to disregard the Crafting market and go fight and Loot for their items....

YET, depending how things will be changed and revamped for Crafting, AT LEAST Crafters will be having an opportunity to have a market and sell their wares.....

Have I perhaps explained myself better now ?

popps said:

Marge said:

What she meant was that YOU want to flip the script and have fighters rely on crafters.

Besides, all this is really moot for next year's arc anyway. I'm sure the developers have next year outlined already.

HOW SO ?????

I must have a problem in making myself be understood in what I mean because people keep misunderstanding my argument.....

No one is misunderstanding you, most just fundamentally disagree with the “fix” that you proposed.

Merus said:

popps said:

Marge said:

What she meant was that YOU want to flip the script and have fighters rely on crafters.

Besides, all this is really moot for next year's arc anyway. I'm sure the developers have next year outlined already.

HOW SO ?????

I must have a problem in making myself be understood in what I mean because people keep misunderstanding my argument.....

No one is misunderstanding you, most just fundamentally disagree with the “fix” that you proposed.

This. Crafting will never regress to making your name standing at the forge taking orders again. The best we can hope for is a little love for the crafted suits.

The most important question is why you keep doing this, to every skill, every week?

Urge said:

Merus said:

popps said:

Marge said:

What she meant was that YOU want to flip the script and have fighters rely on crafters.

Besides, all this is really moot for next year's arc anyway. I'm sure the developers have next year outlined already.

HOW SO ?????

I must have a problem in making myself be understood in what I mean because people keep misunderstanding my argument.....

No one is misunderstanding you, most just fundamentally disagree with the “fix” that you proposed.

This. Crafting will never regress to making your name standing at the forge taking orders again. The best we can hope for is a little love for the crafted suits.

Regress ?

First, back in days, people was "standing at the Firge taking orders" because there was no Global Chat...

Nowadays, thanking to Global Chat, whomever was to need Crafters' Services could simply ask in Chat if there was any Crafter online to provide the needed Services....

Easy, convenient for both parties.

Personally, I would not see it as a "regress".... but a Crafting Revamp to permig to Crafting and Crafters to make a TRUE comeback as the rightfull important Profession as it once was in Ultima Online.

The most important question is why you keep doing this, to every skill, every week?

Perhaps because I am of the naive idea that these Forums are intended to discuss things about Ultima Online, for ideas brainstorming, to provide feedback about Ultima Online and, in general, to discuss ANYTHING related to Ultima Online ?

Discussion is, to my my understanding, bringing up one's own ideas and differying opinions about something, discuss them and then, eventually, those who need to decide upon actually making changes to Ultima Online (the Developers....), would make up their minds hearing all parties involved and think what to do about the game.....

Also to be noted, that I understand that usually those players posting on games' Forums (inluding these Forums for Ultima Online) are a minority of the players' base, and not necessarily a subset that might be representative of the entire players' base preferences....

Therefore, is my opinion, the Developers should listen to the IDEAS presented before them, regardless whether they may be presented by a group of players or a single individual and evaluate the ideas presented, not the numbers of posters on the Forums supporting them....

This, because, as I said, not necessarily those players posting on the Forums could be representative of the entire players' base for that game.

For example, take the recent changes to Treasure Hunting (last Publish).... on these Forums many posters were quite vocal against the changes done and YET, in the game, I have met MANY players approving and enjoying those changes....

So, and I say it again, I think that the Developers should listed to the IDEAS presented to them and evaluate them for the better sake of Ultima Online regardless of how many posters might be for or against those ideas on these Forums....

I know several people that only log in to craft.
They do have other chars that can go out to fight, but they prefer to play their crafter.
When they need the recipes, they purchase them with the funds they got from items they sell.

I do agree that crafters should be able to craft higher end items. But making them harder to craft, would not be in the best interest of crafters. As others have said, there is imbuing and reforging now. Not everyone knows how to do reforging. People keep telling me to look up how to do it, but when I look at those instructions it just confuses me more. It would be better if there was an in-game tutorial of how to do it. 

Long ago, my very first character was a crafter. I was told to put Arms Lore on her, because it helped boost what you make. But nowadays I hear, that it doesn't matter if you have it at all. I'm not sure if that is true or not, but if its not working as intended, then it needs fixed.

popps said:

Regress ?

First, back in days, people was "standing at the Firge taking orders" because there was no Global Chat...

Nowadays, thanking to Global Chat, whomever was to need Crafters' Services could simply ask in Chat if there was any Crafter online to provide the needed Services....

Easy, convenient for both parties.

Personally, I would not see it as a "regress".... but a Crafting Revamp to permig to Crafting and Crafters to make a TRUE comeback as the rightfull important Profession as it once was in Ultima Online.

The most important question is why you keep doing this, to every skill, every week?

Perhaps because I am of the naive idea that these Forums are intended to discuss things about Ultima Online, for ideas brainstorming, to provide feedback about Ultima Online and, in general, to discuss ANYTHING related to Ultima Online ?

Discussion is, to my my understanding, bringing up one's own ideas and differying opinions about something, discuss them and then, eventually, those who need to decide upon actually making changes to Ultima Online (the Developers....), would make up their minds hearing all parties involved and think what to do about the game.....

Also to be noted, that I understand that usually those players posting on games' Forums (inluding these Forums for Ultima Online) are a minority of the players' base, and not necessarily a subset that might be representative of the entire players' base preferences....

Therefore, is my opinion, the Developers should listen to the IDEAS presented before them, regardless whether they may be presented by a group of players or a single individual and evaluate the ideas presented, not the numbers of posters on the Forums supporting them....

This, because, as I said, not necessarily those players posting on the Forums could be representative of the entire players' base for that game.

For example, take the recent changes to Treasure Hunting (last Publish).... on these Forums many posters were quite vocal against the changes done and YET, in the game, I have met MANY players approving and enjoying those changes....

So, and I say it again, I think that the Developers should listed to the IDEAS presented to them and evaluate them for the better sake of Ultima Online regardless of how many posters might be for or against those ideas on these Forums....

We're almost all in agreement that crafting needs something.

If crafted armor were on par with high end loot it would make hunting useless. When the hunters stop, crafters will become obsolete because suits will last forever again.

No offense but your posts about whatever skill seem to circle back to wanting every skill on par with plat making high end hunters. It simply cannot be.

Just a point they are working on crafting or am I the only one who noticed the line in latest newsletter 

"including a brand new interface for mannequins that will help with equipment comparisons"

I don't think it has made it to TC yet but THANK YOU!!!!!! in advance. 

Merus said:

popps said:

Marge said:

What she meant was that YOU want to flip the script and have fighters rely on crafters.

Besides, all this is really moot for next year's arc anyway. I'm sure the developers have next year outlined already.

HOW SO ?????

I must have a problem in making myself be understood in what I mean because people keep misunderstanding my argument.....

No one is misunderstanding you, most just fundamentally disagree with the “fix” that you proposed.

AMEN

Cinderella said:

...
Long ago, my very first character was a crafter. I was told to put Arms Lore on her, because it helped boost what you make. But nowadays I hear, that it doesn't matter if you have it at all. I'm not sure if that is true or not, but if its not working as intended, then it needs fixed.

Armslore
 is needed for armor. Gives a Resist boost. For weapons it raises damage increase which will imbued or removed in most cases to fit your needs.

Trismegistos said:

Cinderella said:

...
Long ago, my very first character was a crafter. I was told to put Arms Lore on her, because it helped boost what you make. But nowadays I hear, that it doesn't matter if you have it at all. I'm not sure if that is true or not, but if its not working as intended, then it needs fixed.

Armslore
 is needed for armor. Gives a Resist boost. For weapons it raises damage increase which will imbued or removed in most cases to fit your needs.

Thank you for that info.
I know a couple years ago I was crafting stuff with my tailor and none of the resists got over 9%.

Nice info about weapons, I have the skill to make them. I just don't know anything about that.

This guy actually has a good point for a change, give him a break.  This thread devolved into a convoluted circle of self importance.

You want crafting easier?  It's pretty basic as it is, craft some pieces, reforge it, if you don't get what you need try again.  If this is too complicated then the issue may not be the skill but may be behind a monitor.  

If simplification is what this game needs then I vote we change all pvm to operate like Blackthorne dungeon.  Collect tokens hand them in for what you want instantly.  No complicated puzzles or dungeons, no complicated peerless keying, or taking the time to travel around for these hunts.

Sound fun to your prefered play style?

I have no idea what the roof is all about and without reading into it, sounds mildly complicated but I'm not campaigning to simplify it, I don't care about it and if I did I'd read into it and test it out.  Like I did with crafting.  I'm sure it's simple when layed out.

Another clueless crafter trying to tell us how easy it is to make anything worth while in crafting.

Bilbo said:

Another clueless crafter trying to tell us how easy it is to make anything worth while in crafting.

LOL, I may well be clueless about crafting but definitively, to my understanding, @WornOutYourTool is a VERY experienced Crafter in Ultima Online and well knows what he's talking about when it comes to Crafting....

The only reason you say that is because he agreed that you had a good idea which proves my point that he is as clueless as you are.

Popps. Please create a detailed list of crafting changes you feel would be in the best interest of overall state of the game. Please list the current mechanics of the specific crafting process from beginning to end. Explain what changes you would make at every step of any given crafting project. Make a convincing argument that these changes are worth the effort of spending time and resources on and they would affect a significant portion of the UO population in a positive way.   

Wow

AMEN @Rorschach

@Rorschach
.... forgot to add to send that list to mesanna@broadsword.com

A certain poster would not be able to post "change this" posts again if he actually had to understand the game mechanics of the things they want to change.

Rorschach said:

Popps. Please create a detailed list of crafting changes you feel would be in the best interest of overall state of the game. Please list the current mechanics of the specific crafting process from beginning to end. Explain what changes you would make at every step of any given crafting project. Make a convincing argument that these changes are worth the effort of spending time and resources on and they would affect a significant portion of the UO population in a positive way.   

I thought that there was a distinct difference in players' role and Developers' role....

Now players should take the Role of a full time Developer and work extensively on detailed and comprehensive Design Projects about the game for which they pay to play ?

I do not quite follow you.... I thought that to each one his or her own.....

Players are players, Developers are Developers or, at least, that is what I thought.....

Then go play. I was asking for more direction. I wish it was different is not much help.

Rorschach said:

Then go play. I was asking for more direction. I wish it was different is not much help.

One thing, as a player, is to give a general idea about wished changes, an entire other is to produce a comprehensive and detailed laid out Design plan.....

As a player, I can notice that Crafting suffers dearly from the much better quality of dropped Loot.

Of course that, if players can get much better quality items as Loot, they won't care bothering with Crafting and crafters for their items' needs....

Ain't that obvious ?

Yet, and that is what I wanted to point out, Crafting has always been a very strong point of Ultima Online since 1997.

Then, slowly, change after change, Crafting went down a slippering slope to where it is today where, saved a few exceptions, Crafting remains pretty much unused.

You ask what changes would I like ?

As I mentioned, I would like changes that enabled Crafters to, at the very least, be able to craft items that were "on par" with looted ones...

Of course, in order to avoid turning upside down the inbalance and make crafting the wanted means for players to get items and disregard looting, I suggested that crafting for High End items was yes permitted, but made a complicated and complex endeavour requiring a steep learning process and a time consuming activity.

This, to avoid having everyone jump the Crafting bandwagon and use crafting to make their items rather then looting.

By making it a difficult process to learn and master, and time consuming to be played, it would be kept "under control", so to speak, and thus only having those players motivated at playing a Crafter as their Leading and Main character, be wanting to do it. And all other players who would not want to bother with the complexities and time investment requirements of Crafting, either keep using Loot as their source at High end items or, now as a new alternative to them, resort to the paid services of Crafters hired in UO to make them the high end items which they would need.

But at least, crafters could then be able to make a living in UO via an occupation that would be rewarding but consuming pretty much all of their in game time in order to be able to make those items which would be highly seeked because competitive with Looted one.

Players want items, and the better the items the more they want them.

To my viewing, there should be 2 ways for players to get to those items, either via Looting them OR via Crafting them.

And these 2 ways should be well balanced out so that neither one should be "dominant" as the players' preferred way to get those high end items.

The ONLY discriminant, to my opinion, to seek either way, should be a player's playing preference.

Those players who enjoy fighting should go fight and get these items as Loot, those other players who, instead, prefer Crafting as their MAIN preferred gameplay style, should be able to get SAME QUALITY high end items through Crafting.

And this, with a Design that would not make either way a more powerfull or "easier" way for players to get to those High End items.

Now, as in regards to "how" to get to this Design balance between these 2 ways to get to high end items, I think it should be left to the "Professionals" to decide and create, that is, the Designers who do this for a living and, therefore, are way more skilled and fit as players to conceive and Design.

At least, that is how I see it. 

LOL a multi word dispute from Popps.  Shocker.   Yes, you cant just say DEVS FIX CRAFTING.

Have you not seen that I post examples of weapons I would like to have as drops?  I give the stats but they fall on deaf ears.  I told them specifically what to add to the Mannequin update.

You have to show some effort.  Changing crafting affects everyone.  They want someone that actually knows the game mechanics before they follow their advice.  Just saying make crafting more complex and difficult and make everyone have to have a dedicated crafter or you can not craft is going to fall on deaf ears I hope.

@popps - Rorschach is not asking you to do the actual dev work design.  He / she / they is asking you, as a customer, what you want changed from a customer perspective.

For example here is something that I would like changed: When you select how many items to make, failed attempts count against that total.  My suggested change would be that failed attempts do not count against the total.  If I want 100 items for something that has a 75% success rate I should get 100 items even thou there were also 25 failed attempts along with the loss of materials for those failed attempts. The benefit to the player base is making a set number of items would be streamlined.  No need for multiple restarts and keeping track of how many items are left to make.

Ooo - I like that idea Tim. I hate making only so many then having to add and subtract to figure out how many more I need.

LOL  TYVM @Rorschach

@popps is like my wife telling me the car is broke.
What is wrong with it dear? I don't know it just doesn't work
What doesn't work? The car.  OK dear.
Shakes head and goes for test drive, oh wait the car doesn't start, goes to get truck and jumper cables.

TimSt said:

@ popps - Rorschach is not asking you to do the actual dev work design.  He / she / they is asking you, as a customer, what you want changed from a customer perspective.

For example here is something that I would like changed: When you select how many items to make, failed attempts count against that total.  My suggested change would be that failed attempts do not count against the total.  If I want 100 items for something that has a 75% success rate I should get 100 items even thou there were also 25 failed attempts along with the loss of materials for those failed attempts. The benefit to the player base is making a set number of items would be streamlined.  No need for multiple restarts and keeping track of how many items are left to make.

Well, as I mentioned, I think that, in order to overcome the current issue with Crafting, that is necessary to permit to Crafters to be able to make items of a quality comparable to that of Looted items.

Otherwise, players would pretty much only care about Looted items (because they are better) and disregard Crafted items.... which is the cause, to my viewing, for Crafters and the Crafting Profession in Ultima Online to languish....

Now, of course, in revamping Crafting there is also the risk of then making Crafted items be preferrable over Looted items, and hence have players all flock into Crafting their high end items rather then Looting them, which would be the opposite to the current imbalance that suffers Crafting.... in that other scenario it would be Looting that would become the underdog....

So, it is necessary to enhance the Crafting powerfullness BUT, introducing an element of hindrance, a deterrant if we will, due to which players would NOT all flock to Crafting as their preferred way to obtain High End items in place of Looting them....

And I thought, that such obstacle, such deterrant, could be realized by making the Crafting of very High End items a particularly complex and difficult process to be learned and Mastered as well as requiring time to make these items (multiple processes needed....).

This way, only the players REALLY motivated in playing a Crafter would do it, with all of the other players not liking this particular gameplay just leaving it alone and use Hunting to Loot for their High End items OR, as a new possible alternative, seek the paid Services of those UO Crafters who, instead, wanted to actually put the study, effort and time investment into learning the new High End Crafting processes...

This way, it would be more balanced out, to my opinion, with BOTH ways to get to High End items being possible and, YET, none of the 2 prevailing on the other as the players' preferred way to get to High End items....

As in regards to "how" and with what particular mechanics to make this Balance possible, I think it as better to be left to the "Professionals", the Developers who do this for a living and are way more skilled at conceiving and Designing such things as compared to players....

I agree some looted items are better, but I totally disagree with your presumption that they are easily obtained.

I, and most people I know, craft suits for all my characters, usually imbued because it's more controllable. (I hate randomness) Occasionally I'll try to reforge a piece. But then I will gradually upgrade the suit with looted pieces. A process that takes me months, if not years, to complete. Most of my characters still wear a combination of looted and crafted items and I've been playing continuously for 19 years!

As things stand loot & crafted are pretty much in balance.  Loot is annoyingly random, I occasionally wish reforging was a controllable as imbuing, or that imbuing had a slightly higher cap. Crafting is already so complicated that I don't attempt to make the really good items that I know are possible. I don't want it made so complicated that I can't do it at all! 

Petra_Fyde said:

As things stand loot & crafted are pretty much in balance.  Loot is annoyingly random, I occasionally wish reforging was a controllable as imbuing, or that imbuing had a slightly higher cap. Crafting is already so complicated that I don't attempt to make the really good items that I know are possible. I don't want it made so complicated that I can't do it at all! 

I disagree on current balance. Maybe if base resists were cap and overcap like the majority of loot.

Imbuing does need a higher cap even if it's just dedicated for resists. Reforging isn't bad if you have all the guides handy. The main thing that has steered me away from crafting is the requirement to have a forged metal tool or face a 99% chance at breaking your armor on enhancing.

Maybe we should make all the skills really uber hard and complicated so only the really motivated person would want to play UO in the first place.

I don't know about the rest of you but for myself I play UO to relax.  I have made some very nice high end luck suits that cost a fortune and some nice getting started suits that all my toons can survive with till each part can be replaced by looted pieces and those were not cheap.  I also have a Tamer that has used the pet training to train pets for my play style, I do not use Power Scrolls so they are not the uber max pets that some have made but that system is somewhat complicated but still workable.

Bottom line is if UO becomes much more complicated it will become to much like work and no I do not want to WORK at playing a game.

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID and ENJOYABLE

KISS+E

Petra_Fyde said:

I agree some looted items are better, but I totally disagree with your presumption that they are easily obtained.

I, and most people I know, craft suits for all my characters, usually imbued because it's more controllable. (I hate randomness) Occasionally I'll try to reforge a piece. But then I will gradually upgrade the suit with looted pieces. A process that takes me months, if not years, to complete. Most of my characters still wear a combination of looted and crafted items and I've been playing continuously for 19 years!

As things stand loot & crafted are pretty much in balance.  Loot is annoyingly random, I occasionally wish reforging was a controllable as imbuing, or that imbuing had a slightly higher cap. Crafting is already so complicated that I don't attempt to make the really good items that I know are possible. I don't want it made so complicated that I can't do it at all! 

I, and most people I know, craft suits for all my characters, usually imbued because it's more controllable. (I hate randomness) Occasionally I'll try to reforge a piece. But then I will gradually upgrade the suit with looted pieces. A process that takes me months, if not years, to complete. Most of my characters still wear a combination of looted and crafted items and I've been playing continuously for 19 years!

Well, the speed of that "updating" process much depends, both on the time to play of the player, and on their wealth.....

There is quite a lot of players with multiple Platinums in their UO Bank and they can easily get whatever High End looted item they need or want very fast just by buying it from other who had the drop.... so, for some players that updating process can take very, very little time.....

Bilbo said:

Maybe we should make all the skills really uber hard and complicated so only the really motivated person would want to play UO in the first place.

I don't know about the rest of you but for myself I play UO to relax.  I have made some very nice high end luck suits that cost a fortune and some nice getting started suits that all my toons can survive with till each part can be replaced by looted pieces and those were not cheap.  I also have a Tamer that has used the pet training to train pets for my play style, I do not use Power Scrolls so they are not the uber max pets that some have made but that system is somewhat complicated but still workable.

Bottom line is if UO becomes much more complicated it will become to much like work and no I do not want to WORK at playing a game.

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID and ENJOYABLE

KISS+E

I also play to relax. But I also play to compete. Not only against others but to challenge myself as well. My biggest challenge/addiction is growing my bank balance. I do love the taming changes.

I fully agree with the work statement. You absolutely have to bookmark these guides or you'd be lost trying to remember everything. ONE somewhat simple imbued piece can take over an hour from idea to paper to reading guides to crafting and enhancing. I spent days trying to reforge a perfect piece and gave up.

 Yes Popps, some people have plats. That won't even finish a top tier pvp suit now. I've seen people drop a plat on 1 jewel. Given most run multiple accounts it's almost impossible to suit multiple finished characters now that can compete. I truly feel for players that don't have much time to play and very little gold.

Bottom line. Crafting needs some form of update to compete with loot. Not exactly more complicated either.  

Bilbo said:

Another clueless crafter trying to tell us how easy it is to make anything worth while in crafting.

Your struggle with crafting is your problem, it isn't a complicated system unless you think grouped randomization is beyond comprehension.   

It's basic, your perception of me is basic, as is your posting.

WornOutYourTool said:

Bilbo said:

Another clueless crafter trying to tell us how easy it is to make anything worth while in crafting.

Your struggle with crafting is your problem, it isn't a complicated system unless you think grouped randomization is beyond comprehension.   

It's basic, your perception of me is basic, as is your posting.

LOL  No my understanding of you just like the OP is spot on as you  try to get people to believe you are both so wise and know what is better for the game despite the fact that nobody but you two think this is a great idea.

If you are as wise as you try to make yourself out to be how about you and popps get together and do what @Rorschach suggested.

You do understand that there is a big difference between not knowing how to do something and knowing how to do something and choosing not to do it because it is not worth the effort, but you think because someone chooses not to do something means they do not know how to do it just proves my point that you are clueless.

Can't wait to see your and popps proposal.

Trying to baffle people with endless drivel and bs does not mean you know squat.

Bilbo said:

WornOutYourTool said:

Bilbo said:

Another clueless crafter trying to tell us how easy it is to make anything worth while in crafting.

Your struggle with crafting is your problem, it isn't a complicated system unless you think grouped randomization is beyond comprehension.   

It's basic, your perception of me is basic, as is your posting.

LOL  No my understanding of you just like the OP is spot on as you  try to get people to believe you are both so wise and know what is better for the game despite the fact that nobody but you two think this is a great idea.

If you are as wise as you try to make yourself out to be how about you and popps get together and do what @ Rorschach suggested.

You do understand that there is a big difference between not knowing how to do something and knowing how to do something and choosing not to do it because it is not worth the effort, but you think because someone chooses not to do something means they do not know how to do it just proves my point that you are clueless.

Can't wait to see your and popps proposal.

Trying to baffle people with endless drivel and bs does not mean you know squat.

You do understand that there is a big difference between not knowing how to do something and knowing how to do something and choosing not to do it because it is not worth the effort.....

That is my point....

I would like Crafting to be improved, so as to be possible to make same quality High End items as those being looted, which I think it as necessary in order to make it a worthwhile Profession for those players who actually enjoy Crafting as their MAIN activity in Ultima Online, BUT, at the same one time, make the Crafting learning process and mechanics such a "steep" learning curve and time consuming activity that the largest majority of players will "choose" not to bother with it because too much effort to be put in for whatever advantage they might be getting from it....

Bear with me for a minute, please....

Players who enjoy fighting, usually, just use a Crafter for their personal needs, to support their Fighter, that is. So, saved helping out a Guild mate or a friend, occsaionally, their Crafter is only used scarcely, whenever they may need something.

Players who instead enjoy Crafting, do use a Crafter most of their time, sell their wares to fellow players and all that.

Now, my vision of an enhancement for Crafting, would be one that makes Crafting sufficiently a burden and a chore for all those players who only seldomly use it for personal needs or for a friend here and there to "deter" them from wanting to bother, BUT, at the same time, make it a viable played Profession for those players who, instead, are not intimidated by putting the learning effort that it takes to really Master it and the significant time necessary to actually craft these High End items having the same quality of those looted....

This way, all those players who think that Crafting is not worth their effort, both in the work necessary to Learn all of its ins and outs as well as the actual time to craft the items, will necessarily have to resort for their Crafting needs and services, to those other players who, instead, decided that Crafting was their "Main" occupation and time investment in Ultima Online and, thus, took their time and effort to Learn and Master it.

At that point, we would have a balanced out scenario between Looted High End items and Crafted High End items and both could well co-exist without either one dominating the other.

At least, that is the way I see it.