Rogues Skills, why there are no masteries for them ?

I was not around when Masteries were implemented so, I know nothing about any players' feedback or discussions that might have arosen at that time about Masteries and skills....

Nonetheless, I can't help but noticing that Rogue skills like hiding, stealthing, stealing etc. etc. have no masteries for them....

Is there a reason for that ?

I mean, the Rogue Template is already quite limited in its playability and reason to exist so, perhaps, having Masteries that had broadened its range of playability and usefullness might have helped this particular profession....

Does anyone who was around at the time of Designing and implementing Masteries and who might have participated to the feedback and discussions on the Forums happen to know what was the reason to further limit the Rogue Template by having masteries be done for other skills but not for the Rogue skills ?

I disagree that rogues are badly limited.  With my rogue I can:
Steal balms and lotions from monsters
Steal Exodus keys, ML ingredients and gems from Exodus Zeolots
Find and open hidden boxes in Exodus or Kotl City
Steal artifacts in numerous dungeons

If I join VvV I can steal sigils, earning Silver which I can then use to purchase Royal pardons and sell to other players. 

If I were of different temperament I could stealth around champ areas and steal from players, but I don't like to do that ( I don't like upsetting people).

I see no area where having a 'mastery' would improve or expand what I can do.

To start - a lot of the masteries are based around a main skill of a template - for the rogue - they have chosen Ninjitsu, which does have a Mastery, and good ones as well.

My first thought was the same as Petra's, going to disagree on your "limited usefulness" of the Rogue.

If you go to Siege, you will notice almost every single character is using Hide/Stealth++. In my opinion, that's a bit of a downside of Siege, but it shows in that environment, it makes players feel safer, and how powerful those rogue skills are.

• VvV rogues are good - fun stealing sigils, and the fastest way to gain points almost.
• Scouting for action, Champ Spawns, it isn't all done by ghost/player cams(as assumed by most), we in fact use rogues a lot for exact scout reports, and to raid precisely at the right time.
• Anti scouting measure, again, we use rogue trackers/detect hiders to stop ourselves being scouted and to hunt and kill enemy rogues. Useful at Champion Spawns and IDOCS.
• Player stealing.
• City Stealing for items.
• Monster stealing.
• Kotl City, Ararat, Exodus hidden chests.
• Dungeon chests.
• Dungeon stealing for items.
• Khaldun Puzzle Chests.
• Combat rogues are the best dismounters, which turn the tide of pvp battles.
• Being Protector at Champ spawns, looting gold off the ground at champ spawns. 🙂

If you were to ask me for one thing from a Rogue, give them a method to get higher up the Loot chain, I always find that is a weakness in various play areas, but then there is a post I need to make still, to even articulate what I consider good loot.

Funny, I don't feel limited.  *turns into a white Tiger and goes and steals some powerscrolls*

Cookie said:

If you go to Siege, you will notice almost every single character is using Hide/Stealth++. In my opinion, that's a bit of a downside of Siege, but it shows in that environment, it makes players feel safer, and how powerful those rogue skills are.

I see your point but I've made major coin just from my thief. So much so that it's become my most favorite and profitable character ever.

I'm not sure what is classified as an actual rogue now but I personally don't acknowledge ninja as anything other than an interchangeable support skill so I do see your point on this.

If anything I'd like to see more fun things to do with a thief. Like the locked trap boxes around towns could yield some nice stuff. Dungeon chests could be improved.

All you Rogues go steal herbs!!!  Those huntsmen Recipes need the herbs to make the seasoning that going to be the real killer on the vendors for a while

I haven't played my rogue as a money maker for a very long time. In fact I only played her as such when Britannia was young and I stole armor and weapons from town chests to sell back to npcs. That's how I made enough money for my first house. I had a lot of fun doing that but you'd for sure have to consider that process a grind.

I wasn't playing when the stealable dungeon artifacts were first introduced. Now there aren't many items on the list that most shards aren't fully saturated with ...

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/pvm-player-versus-monster/stealing-in-dungeons/

For the higher end items, say Rarity Levels 9 thru 12, how much fun is it for rogues to compete for single items that spawn every 16 to 128 days? Where is the fun in knowing the system and having a rogue that camps those spawn sites, leaving only once in awhile to put an item away? Those that are into it have it locked down. That's great! But it's a pretty big stretch to call this "playing a rogue".

Stealing off monsters is not a money maker. Stealing from spawn chests isn't a money maker. There are much faster ways to earn gold than this. And while stealing from monsters is fun, why do it if the gold isn't great and the items aren't really wanted?


I don't know anyone on my shard that's VvV-ing. I'm not saying there isn't anyone playing a rogue that steals sigils but I've never once heard it talked about in General or Alliance chat. And if the ever problematic PvP thief isn't your thing? Then what?

Khaldun puzzle chests are a fun way, or were a fun way, to find low end treasure maps. But I stopped going when more and more of the chests became bugged, giving you the message that the container is secure, so you can't take anything out of it. There are easier less frustrating ways to get maps than dealing with bugged chests. 

I've never found anything of interest in a chest that spawned by using Detect Hidden in Khaldun or Exodus. They don't contain enough gold to make the time it takes worth it. And they don't contain anything that can be marketed to other players. 

I appreciate Popps opening up a dialogue on rogues but I'm not the least bit interested in masteries for rogues. Not one little bit. What I'd like, what I've always wanted for rogues, is to be useful in a way that's fun and doesn't wear out (like the dungeon stealables system). 

I can think of lots of ways systems already in place could be revisited that would make playing a rogue more fun. That would offer better and more interesting loot. And would make a rogue more useful to the rest of the player population. But I'm not going to spin my wheels and spend my energy on it until or unless dev's are looking to engage players in a dialogue on the subject.   

Ive been known to steal a scroll and a mastery every now and then. I find it a thrill to do and a challenge to escape. 

Yes I'd love to see more fun things to do. I think revamping dungeon chests with more todayish loot would be a great start. 

Then I think running around the land detecting chests to lockpick and remove trap would also be fun. 

Urge said:

Ive been known to steal a scroll and a mastery every now and then. I find it a thrill to do and a challenge to escape. 

Yes I'd love to see more fun things to do. I think revamping dungeon chests with more todayish loot would be a great start. 

Then I think running around the land detecting chests to lockpick and remove trap would also be fun. 

One thing that I find particularly underwhelming, is stealing from the Zealots in Exodus Dungeon....

While there is a very small chance to steal one of the 4 keys for Exodus, what really bothers me, is that most of the time the steal, even at 120 Legendary Stealing skill, yeilds only gold. Yes, ONLY gold, sometimes a few regular gems....

Only VERY rarely one gets 1 Peerless ingredient....

Bottom line is, MOST of the time stealing, even at the Legendary level, comes fruitless even though there is dangers associated....

Not to mention, trying to use Remove Trap on the hidden chests, still in the Exodus Dungeon....

Even at 100 GM Remove Trap skill, the message most always comes out as "Too Challenging" (UHU ???), inevtably the attempt fails setting the trap go off....

SO, it is totally pointless to carry remove trap on the Template, at least down in Exodus Dungeon.... better just stay at a distance and cast telekinesis to set the trap off....

But how much sense does this make, if I may ask @Kyronix ?

The player invests 100 skill points in the Template only to end up with a useless skill that removes no trap and using Telekinesis from a distance gets better results ?

Personally, I think that there is quite a good number of things that would need to be adjusted to make the Rogue player again fun and balanced versus the other professions in UO....

Investing skill points, like in the case of Stealing or Remove Trap, should absolutely yield better results as it does not, at least to my viewing...

Otherwise, what people would do (as they do now), is just run that one spawn or two like the roof where their time spent yields best results as compared to anything else they could do in UO.

That is at least how I see it.

I think the rogue character is the most fun of all of them. Leave it alone. I play a thief exclusively. Don't mess it up with your min/maxing meta gaming garbage. I don't care how profitable it is or what I get for "investing skill points." There are a bunch of people who play the rogue because it is unique and fun for us.

I have been answering your questions in the stratics crime section. How did I know that you would be over here trying to get the devs to ruin my play style? It is obvious to me that you know nothing about this play style unless you became an expert on the subject since last night. I don't know what you are trying to do @popps but take all the advice I gave you over there and make it work for you. Perhaps you will become humbled by it. Trash.

 😂  I see you met Popps. 

This dude seriously was asking me why a thief would want to use ninjitsu just yesterday. Now he thinks devs should listen to his suggestions on how to change the class. Wow... Just... Wow.

He has done that to T Maps, T Hunting, Pets, High Seas, Fishing, etc

They need to put some kind of warning by his name or something. 

 😂  He should come with a warning label!  😂  

Stinky_Pete said:

I think the rogue character is the most fun of all of them. Leave it alone. I play a thief exclusively. Don't mess it up with your min/maxing meta gaming garbage. I don't care how profitable it is or what I get for "investing skill points." There are a bunch of people who play the rogue because it is unique and fun for us.

I have been answering your questions in the stratics crime section. How did I know that you would be over here trying to get the devs to ruin my play style? It is obvious to me that you know nothing about this play style unless you became an expert on the subject since last night. I don't know what you are trying to do @ popps but take all the advice I gave you over there and make it work for you. Perhaps you will become humbled by it. Trash.

Not at all !

While the " PvP " aspects for the Rogue character might be fun to play, and I am NOT saying they are not, the " PvM " aspects for the Rogue character perhaps need some love.....

Take the stealables.....

People is screaming about scripters having ruined IDOCS for them, but why don't we then also mention what scripters have done to " PvM " Rogue characters trying to get the in-game stealables?

They set their BOT to sit there by the stealable at each Server up from maintanance and run their script until the item gets created and steal it..... other " PvM " Rogue players, simply do not have a chance.....

Why can't it be possible to "improve" the PvM aspects for the Rogue character without endangering the " PvP " aspects which players already appreciate ?

Not all players play a Rogue character in PvP, there is plenty who have tried, until they found out all of the shortcomings, at least in PvM, to play a PvM Rogue character and then abandoned it because they saw how underhwelming and unfun it was, due to scripters, yes, but also to a very low potential for profitability in PvM.....

Having Masteries for Rogue skills (and doing domething to stop scripters' Rogue characters) perhaps could help towards a rightfull "comeback" of the Rogue character in Ultima Online...

At least, that is the way I see it.

@popps ; You have absolutely no knowledge of using this skill, as evidenced in the other thread where you didn't know that you must have both hands empty to steal
Please refrain from advising on how a skill you have no experience of should be changed. Such ideas and suggestions should come from those who USE it.

I play my rogue often, no she doesn't make much gold, that's not the point of playing her. UO is a GAME - you play a game to have fun, or at least I do, and my thief is fun to play. Leave her alone!

@popps

My point is exactly what @Petra_Fyde said:

We have fun with our rogues. If anyone should be recommending changes, it should be me, or her, or someone who plays a rogue. Not someone who apparently just found out that the class exists yesterday and knows nothing about it. You asked me about how armor affects stealing yesterday, a clear sign that you know nothing about it. I would be surprised to learn that you have ever even used a rogue skill at all. 

If PvM stealing has an issue with scripters, it needs to be dealt with by banning those scripters, not by adding some silly masteries. When someone like @Petra_Fyde has a suggestion for how PvM stealing could be made better I hope someone listens. Until then I suggest that it be left alone and that you keep your mouth shut and go do something else if the rewards aren't worth your precious time or whatever.

I should have known you were going to try to cause problems when you were asking for a list of rogue artifacts on stratics.  In my first reply to you, I said that if you are planning on playing a rogue, you need to worry less about lists, gear, and stuff, and to focus on having fun with it instead. Believe it or not, for some of us, this game isn't all about receiving rewards for doing content. For some, the content itself is reward enough and whatever rewards we get are just extra. Perhaps you should play exclusively on test center, you get a bunch of stuff just for logging in there. Also, you will be away from the rest of us the majority of the time, which would make the game better for everyone and maybe when it comes time to test something, someone might listen to your stupid ideas.

Petra_Fyde said:

@ popps  You have absolutely no knowledge of using this skill, as evidenced in the other thread where you didn't know that you must have both hands empty to steal
Please refrain from advising on how a skill you have no experience of should be changed. Such ideas and suggestions should come from those who USE it.

I play my rogue often, no she doesn't make much gold, that's not the point of playing her. UO is a GAME - you play a game to have fun, or at least I do, and my thief is fun to play. Leave her alone!

@Petra_Fyde

 So, let me understand, should I be happy that the UO stealables, at least those which are rarer, are not unusually camped by scripters and, when this haooens, consequentially pretty much not available to the ordinary, average PvM Rogue who does not script ?

Or, that stealing from Zealots just yields for the most part some gold, exceptionally some ordinary gems (5 or 6....) and only very seldomly (this at 120 Legendary stealing....) 1 or very maybe 2 ML resources and once in a blue moon an Exodus key ?

In the time it takes a high end Rogue to get LESS then 10-15 ML resources, the people doing the Roof or some other high end Boss have made PILES of gold and items worth millions....

And what does this mean ? That these players piling up gold drive up the prices for everything (inflation) and the PvM Rogue who can hardly make a gold point or 2, cannot afford buying anything....

My point, is a point of BALANCING..... when reaching the high end of their UO profession, to MY opinion, all professions should be moreless equally capable of making the same in-game gold so as to be able to then afford whatever they may need in the game....

Sure, it is a game, and it is about fun.... no doubt about that.

My question is, though, WHY can't that fun playing of a Rogue ALSO be one that was to bring to that UO "Rogue" Profession the same gold which other Templates doing the Roof and other high end encounters can achieve in the same  playing time ?

I am not talking about taking the fun out of the Rogue profession, I am talking about making it AS profitable or at least not as much less, as other professions in UO.

Try spending 2 hours going around looting Dungeons' chests with a high end Legendary Rogue, and try spend that same exact time doing the Roof or some other high end encounter and then let's see what the "earning DELTA" is in between the 2.....

Yet, the in-game time spent is the same....

I am talking of an issue with BALANCE.

As of now, to my opinion, the Rogue, at least in PvM, is way, but WAY less profitable as other professions in UO.

I am just saying to do something to make it more rewarding to"catch up" with other Professions earnability potential in the game....

Rogues are still playable. They take patience, cunning, skill, and thinking outside of the box. An experienced, dedicated thief can do quite well. A good thief keeps thier secrets a secret on message forums. As far as stealing artifacts etc in trammel goes. I've never been a fan. I always thought those should spawn in fel dungeons and in not just one spot. It would be nice if there were a lot of random spots where there was no learnable timer. If there were some fel dungeon chests  that were worthwhile that also didnt have the same locations over and over it would promote fel dungeon crawling by giving rogues something to do while seeking out dungeon stealables as well as creating possible old school interaction between players that is not over the top. Any player that is in a fel dungeon knows the risks and should be a potential mark. With insurance in the game items are mostly safe but creating a slight chance someone has uninsured loot on them would be a nice addition.

Lol Petra. 

Oh dear. First the only stealable that's worth stealing is the inquis. That's been scripted since doom was made. The rest aren't worth the effort. 

Yes I'd like to see more to do with a thief but a complete overhaul isn't needed at all. 

Ok, so I'm weird and unusual - I don't care what stealables are 'worth' stealing - I don't play for 'worth'. At any given time I couldn't tell you how much gold I have in the bank - it's irrelevant to my play style. It just kind of accumulates when I'm not looking. I play for fun!  Stealing from mobs is fun, stealing in Exodus is fun - and you'll get more goodies if you have a bit of luck on your suit. 

Stealing sigils in VvV is most fun when there's someone around looking for you and can't find you.
Gold has nothing to do with that situation.

I had shed loads of fun last Halloween looking for boxes in Khaldun.

I'll steal the little skull candle in Doom if I want to do a particular deco scene, is it worth gold? heck no!  but if you want to set up a spooky scene for Halloween, it fits.

people doing the Roof or some other high end Boss have made PILES of gold and items worth millions....

So what? I don't want or need PILES of gold, or items worth millions.  I don't care what they've got.

Don't make the character type fit your playstyle - play a character type that already fits. If gold is your god - play a character that gets lots of gold.

popps said:

Petra_Fyde said:

@ popps  You have absolutely no knowledge of using this skill, as evidenced in the other thread where you didn't know that you must have both hands empty to steal
Please refrain from advising on how a skill you have no experience of should be changed. Such ideas and suggestions should come from those who USE it.

I play my rogue often, no she doesn't make much gold, that's not the point of playing her. UO is a GAME - you play a game to have fun, or at least I do, and my thief is fun to play. Leave her alone!

@ Petra_Fyde

 So, let me understand, should I be happy that the UO stealables, at least those which are rarer, are not unusually camped by scripters and, when this haooens, consequentially pretty much not available to the ordinary, average PvM Rogue who does not script ?

Or, that stealing from Zealots just yields for the most part some gold, exceptionally some ordinary gems (5 or 6....) and only very seldomly (this at 120 Legendary stealing....) 1 or very maybe 2 ML resources and once in a blue moon an Exodus key ?

In the time it takes a high end Rogue to get LESS then 10-15 ML resources, the people doing the Roof or some other high end Boss have made PILES of gold and items worth millions....

And what does this mean ? That these players piling up gold drive up the prices for everything (inflation) and the PvM Rogue who can hardly make a gold point or 2, cannot afford buying anything....

My point, is a point of BALANCING..... when reaching the high end of their UO profession, to MY opinion, all professions should be moreless equally capable of making the same in-game gold so as to be able to then afford whatever they may need in the game....

Sure, it is a game, and it is about fun.... no doubt about that.

My question is, though, WHY can't that fun playing of a Rogue ALSO be one that was to bring to that UO "Rogue" Profession the same gold which other Templates doing the Roof and other high end encounters can achieve in the same  playing time ?

I am not talking about taking the fun out of the Rogue profession, I am talking about making it AS profitable or at least not as much less, as other professions in UO.

Try spending 2 hours going around looting Dungeons' chests with a high end Legendary Rogue, and try spend that same exact time doing the Roof or some other high end encounter and then let's see what the "earning DELTA" is in between the 2.....

Yet, the in-game time spent is the same....

I am talking of an issue with BALANCE.

As of now, to my opinion, the Rogue, at least in PvM, is way, but WAY less profitable as other professions in UO.

I am just saying to do something to make it more rewarding to"catch up" with other Professions earnability potential in the game....

I’m sorry but no, every class should not have equal access to make the same “profit” for their activities.  While each class may have a role to play, and opportunities for fun depending on the interest of the players, they do not all produce results that have the same value in the economy... nor should they.

Dukarlo said:

Rogues are still playable. They take patience, cunning, skill, and thinking outside of the box. An experienced, dedicated thief can do quite well. A good thief keeps thier secrets a secret on message forums. As far as stealing artifacts etc in trammel goes. I've never been a fan. I always thought those should spawn in fel dungeons and in not just one spot. It would be nice if there were a lot of random spots where there was no learnable timer. If there were some fel dungeon chests  that were worthwhile that also didnt have the same locations over and over it would promote fel dungeon crawling by giving rogues something to do while seeking out dungeon stealables as well as creating possible old school interaction between players that is not over the top. Any player that is in a fel dungeon knows the risks and should be a potential mark. With insurance in the game items are mostly safe but creating a slight chance someone has uninsured loot on them would be a nice addition.

 It would be nice if there were a lot of random spots where there was no learnable timer.

That was tried with resources Years back, when their spawning was made at random locations precisely to solve the problem created by scripters and look at what happened..... now it is practically only scripters who mine and lumberjack.... and they spawn at random locations at random times...

Unfortunately, making stealables spawn at random locations I doubt that it would hurt much scripters who rely on BOTs to get around looking where those stealables spawn and steal the, as they appear....

I think that some other solution would need to be conceived to deal with the problem of scripters dominating the rare stealables spawns thanking to their scripts....

As in regards to limiting Rogues in Felucca only, I need to disagree. Most of the players in Ultima Online prefer the Trammel ruleset, not the Felucca one and this includes players who may want to play a Rogue albeit, for PvM and not PvP, necessarily....

So, limiting the use of a Rogue character to only the Felucca facet, would take away to those players who, instead, prefer the Trammel ruleset, the pssibility to enjoy playing a Rogue character, if they so wish.

Merus said:

popps said:

Petra_Fyde said:

@ popps  You have absolutely no knowledge of using this skill, as evidenced in the other thread where you didn't know that you must have both hands empty to steal
Please refrain from advising on how a skill you have no experience of should be changed. Such ideas and suggestions should come from those who USE it.

I play my rogue often, no she doesn't make much gold, that's not the point of playing her. UO is a GAME - you play a game to have fun, or at least I do, and my thief is fun to play. Leave her alone!

@ Petra_Fyde

 So, let me understand, should I be happy that the UO stealables, at least those which are rarer, are not unusually camped by scripters and, when this haooens, consequentially pretty much not available to the ordinary, average PvM Rogue who does not script ?

Or, that stealing from Zealots just yields for the most part some gold, exceptionally some ordinary gems (5 or 6....) and only very seldomly (this at 120 Legendary stealing....) 1 or very maybe 2 ML resources and once in a blue moon an Exodus key ?

In the time it takes a high end Rogue to get LESS then 10-15 ML resources, the people doing the Roof or some other high end Boss have made PILES of gold and items worth millions....

And what does this mean ? That these players piling up gold drive up the prices for everything (inflation) and the PvM Rogue who can hardly make a gold point or 2, cannot afford buying anything....

My point, is a point of BALANCING..... when reaching the high end of their UO profession, to MY opinion, all professions should be moreless equally capable of making the same in-game gold so as to be able to then afford whatever they may need in the game....

Sure, it is a game, and it is about fun.... no doubt about that.

My question is, though, WHY can't that fun playing of a Rogue ALSO be one that was to bring to that UO "Rogue" Profession the same gold which other Templates doing the Roof and other high end encounters can achieve in the same  playing time ?

I am not talking about taking the fun out of the Rogue profession, I am talking about making it AS profitable or at least not as much less, as other professions in UO.

Try spending 2 hours going around looting Dungeons' chests with a high end Legendary Rogue, and try spend that same exact time doing the Roof or some other high end encounter and then let's see what the "earning DELTA" is in between the 2.....

Yet, the in-game time spent is the same....

I am talking of an issue with BALANCE.

As of now, to my opinion, the Rogue, at least in PvM, is way, but WAY less profitable as other professions in UO.

I am just saying to do something to make it more rewarding to"catch up" with other Professions earnability potential in the game....

I’m sorry but no, every class should not have equal access to make the same “profit” for their activities.  While each class may have a role to play, and opportunities for fun depending on the interest of the players, they do not all produce results that have the same value in the economy... nor should they.

I can possibly agree on that BUT, the differences in profitability should neither be so enormous as they are now....

Each and every "ability" in Ultima Online should have a "unique" ability to get to some highly valuable items only accessable to THAT Profession, of course upon reaching the high end of the training for that given Profession.

This way, each and every Profession would have their "unique" ways at making wealth which they ONLY can make to then use that wealth for their spending needs in Ultima Online.

Otherwise, if we have Professions which can make uber millions of gold and Professions which can only make too little, of course that inbalances among Professions would be all over the place...

As I said, I see it as an issue of Balance.

Maybe @popps you can't make a profit because you don't know what you are doing. Surely you have never considered that. They just need to change the game so that you can make some gold, right? Like I said before, if you want something for nothing... Go to test center, I think you'll love it there.

I could make a couple hundred K an hour (Siege) using rogue skills if I wanted to. I don't because PvM stealing isn't really my thing, but I could. I'm not going to tell you how because I would hate to spoil the fun you might have trying to figure it out. If you are looking for an easy way to make gold, go make a sampire and leave the rogues alone.

This thread is nice for no other reason than thieves are actually being talked about

Stinky_Pete said:

Maybe @ popps you can't make a profit because you don't know what you are doing. Surely you have never considered that. They just need to change the game so that you can make some gold, right? Like I said before, if you want something for nothing... Go to test center, I think you'll love it there.

I could make a couple hundred K an hour (Siege) using rogue skills if I wanted to. I don't because PvM stealing isn't really my thing, but I could. I'm not going to tell you how because I would hate to spoil the fun you might have trying to figure it out. If you are looking for an easy way to make gold, go make a sampire and leave the rogues alone.

No, I am saying something different.

I know that, if used well in PvP, a Rogue character can possibly make, if lucky and they find the right Target, good gold with items stolen from players although, it remains to be seen if the time invested in doing that in the end is comparable, as far as profitability goes, with those players who, instead, spend their in-game time doing the Roof or similars....

My point is another, and more addresses the playability (and profitability) of a Rogue character in PvM.

Since stealing out of players is out of the question, what remains is hitting Town and Dungeon crates, stealing from Monsters and from the Zealots in Exodus, and the items which spawn to be stolen....

Considering how the stealables have been for long taken away by scripters, pretty much, how even the "rare" items (which by the way are a very rare steal...) do not receive much appeal from players and, thus, have no market so much that players who happen to steal them turn them in for Clean Up points, how stealing from the Zealots other then for the Exodus keys (another quite very rare steal, by the way... and also in direct competition with the keys being craftable....) seems to me quite pointless for the very little and scarce loot it provides (mostly little gold, rarely some nrmal gems, 5 or 6, and ultra rarely 1 ML resource, once in a blue moon 2.....), and how Town and Dungeon chests, even the highest level ones, look to give just very basic stuff totally blown by the Legendary drops which any higher end Monster would provide, I frankly do not see what would be the point of playing a Rogue in PvM as things stand now in Ultima Online....

And, apparently, my thinking is not much far away from that of the Developers if I then read this Post from Kyronix.... https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/31835/#Comment_31835

Re: Herbs - I'm apprehensive to add these to additional areas of the world.  I understand the concern that the limited spawn of them makes them difficult to acquire, however, I think the dried herbs fall into a unique category.  They've been around for a very, very long time.  They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do.

@Kyronix says ..... "They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do."

And, frankly, I wholeheartedly and totally agree with him on that.

Petra_Fyde said:

Ok, so I'm weird and unusual - I don't care what stealables are 'worth' stealing - I don't play for 'worth'. At any given time I couldn't tell you how much gold I have in the bank - it's irrelevant to my play style. It just kind of accumulates when I'm not looking. I play for fun!  Stealing from mobs is fun, stealing in Exodus is fun - and you'll get more goodies if you have a bit of luck on your suit. 

Stealing sigils in VvV is most fun when there's someone around looking for you and can't find you.
Gold has nothing to do with that situation.

I had shed loads of fun last Halloween looking for boxes in Khaldun.

I'll steal the little skull candle in Doom if I want to do a particular deco scene, is it worth gold? heck no!  but if you want to set up a spooky scene for Halloween, it fits.

people doing the Roof or some other high end Boss have made PILES of gold and items worth millions....

So what? I don't want or need PILES of gold, or items worth millions.  I don't care what they've got.

Don't make the character type fit your playstyle - play a character type that already fits. If gold is your god - play a character that gets lots of gold.

I was directing the lol at you giving popps hell. Nothing I said was directed toward you at all babe.

My point is that making decent gold as a PvM thief is entirely possible. You just don't know how and I would bet that @Kyronix doesn't either. Maybe PvM stealing does need some changes. I wouldn't know as I am not an expert in such content and it is obvious that you are not either. I suggest that we both stay out of any conversation regarding PvM thief changes with the exception of me saying DO NOT MAKE ANY CHANGES TO WHAT I DO! 

Someone here should read more, play more and speak less.

Popps, it is very profitable. If you refuse to learn the mechanics and use the full potential that's on you. If i made a samp and refused to do roof should i complain i couldn't get a cameo? Should we complain that begging won't make us millions?

Direct these posts toward something that matters like why crafting isn't half as good as loot. That's something we can all get behind. 

Urge said:

 Should we complain that begging won't make us millions?

   Hey now every year when trick or treating is rolled out and the new stuff available with GM begging the potential to beg your way into millions is there 🙂

Stinky_Pete said:

My point is that making decent gold as a PvM thief is entirely possible. You just don't know how and I would bet that @ Kyronix doesn't either. Maybe PvM stealing does need some changes. I wouldn't know as I am not an expert in such content and it is obvious that you are not either. I suggest that we both stay out of any conversation regarding PvM thief changes with the exception of me saying DO NOT MAKE ANY CHANGES TO WHAT I DO! 

It would be neat to just add in a couple things to play around with. Dungeon chests do need to be updated out of 1997. Town chests need a tweak too. Maybe steal from some NPCs.

But asking for an add usually ends with a complete overhaul that i am against.

Tyrath said:

Someone here should read more, play more and speak less.

+1

Thieves shouldn't be able to snoop while hidden, and I'll just leave it at that.

Rogue Mastery + 120 stealing = can disable insurance on things so we can steal good loot again.  Victim can make insurance claim to recover some gold

Garth_Grey said:

Thieves shouldn't be able to snoop while hidden, and I'll just leave it at that.

Oh you... I thought we talked about this before. You seemed to understand then.

Urge said:

I was directing the lol at you giving popps hell. Nothing I said was directed toward you at all babe.

Thanks for that, you made my day.  Nothing cheers up an old girl who's the wrong side of 60 more than being called 'babe'. 😂

I want my cook to be able to make 100M gold an hour!  This is not fair!

Urge said:

Popps, it is very profitable. If you refuse to learn the mechanics and use the full potential that's on you. If i made a samp and refused to do roof should i complain i couldn't get a cameo? Should we complain that begging won't make us millions?

Direct these posts toward something that matters like why crafting isn't half as good as loot. That's something we can all get behind. 

Direct these posts toward something that matters like why crafting isn't half as good as loot. That's something we can all get behind. 

I mentioned my opinion about crafting being in dire need for help various times... besides, it is before everyone's eyes how items from Loot is way better then whatever can be crafted....

Furthermore, there is something which also should, once and for all, be ended.

The fact that crafting Recipes for the most part, come from fights as Loot.

Why ?

Because Crafters are no fighters.

Therefore, their Recipes should NOT come from fighting which Crafters do not have available.

And when I talk about Crafters, I talk about characters REALLY played as Crafters and NOT mere Mules... that is, Crafters which Fighter characters have and use only as mere support for their Fighting characters to be self-sufficient....

If Crafting is, as it is, a NON-COMBAT profession, well, then, at least to my viewing, the Recipes needed for Crafters should NOT come from Fighting which only help Fighters who have Crafters only as mules, that is, secondary characters in support of their fighting characters.

Which is, why I LOVE Crafting to be complex and complicated as it is in Ultima Online where, in order to be truly a dedicated and "true" Crafter, a player needs to invest TIME in studying how it really works, spend time to train in it not only to learn the skills in the game but also in how to actually really make items and suits that make sense....

I have always hated Crafting characters being used as mules, in support of fighting characters and I would like Ultima Online, sometimes, to give some love, besides Fighing content, also to non-fighting content....

Yet, it looks like most always the best items drop where ? In fights, to "top" attackers and all that....

Well, for a change, it would be nice that also non-fighting effort, time and dedication in the game like a player who really wants to learn Crafting in Ultima Online (at least for good amor crafting) needs to put in, was to be recognized such an exceptional effort put into a NON-COMBAT profession....

Ok Popps, the Devs understand, at least on production shards, that players have support characters. That's why things like recipes have always come from fighting and no one really complains about it, well, until now.

Garth_Grey said:

Ok Popps, the Devs understand, at least on production shards, that players have support characters. That's why things like recipes have always come from fighting and no one really complains about it, well, until now.

We had recipes in heartwood remember? Look how that turned out lol. I'd actually like to see a total tally of the people banned for unattended crafting since it was made.

I forgot about those, since well, no one that I've ever known made any of that crap anyway.

Garth_Grey said:

I forgot about those, since well, no one that I've ever known made any of that crap anyway.

I made a stone anvil once, once . . .

Victim_Of_Siege said:

Garth_Grey said:

I forgot about those, since well, no one that I've ever known made any of that crap anyway.

I made a stone anvil once, once . . .

OH!

I heart my rogue!

She creeps around, snoops in fel, follows players around, gathers information, gathers loots! She is a crafty "intelligence" hoarder, oh the secrets she carries!!!! 

And not just on Pacific. LS and Baja have some real... intrigue.... *giggles*

She stealths around IDOCS (she is my shard jumper) and gets so many loots - unless there is a scripter there who spoils her fun. She will sell off things I don't want on Pacific - regularly bringing over 10mil into my collective coffers on a good IDOC night. She brings home items that should never have left Pacific or Napa. And you know what? People NEVER KNOW SHE'S THERE!


let me rephrase...
Players never know she's there - and if they do, well, they don't bother her. Maybe is because, well, they don't realize she is what - or who - she is. 😂
sneaky rogue she be! One GM poked her once, to make sure she wasn't one of those nefarious people we all want the gods to get rid of. Got into a nice conversation, provided some information, was set on her merry way.

She sneaks into Tram & Fel dungeons alike, stealing items like there's no tomorrow, and then she will sit and watch (fel) people start accusing others of taking their bandies/pots/or cursed stuffs. Oh the LOLs I get sometimes! 

There I nights I have so much fun with her, I don't even bother checking on my vendors.

Why for @popps you say Rogues are having less to do?!?!?!? Do you even HAVE a Rogue character? I know Kyronix has a Rogue toon, but probably doesn't "play" so much from a players' perspective. It is not easy for a coder to get into the end-user's mindset when they know how the entire thing is put together - (I get like that with a certain ecommerce package). Is why my son who works in the film industry cannot go and enjoy a movie anymore.. he knows how the stuff is done - so the "magic" is gone for him.

Rogues are FINE as they are - their skills are for more than a thieving skill set - is used in so many different ways that to throw a mastery at the "core" rogue skills would be overkill. Hard enough I had to fret over my Paladin... do I scroll/skill up swords, or fencing? Do I want to invest in Chiv or some other mastery? Gods, is hard to find mastery books on "small" shards - let me get XXXXXXXX out and see if she cannot steal something from those champ runners.

OH! something shiney!!!!!

Pure Rogues are FINE as they are!!!

I’m not looking for the rogue’s skill sets, used in various builds, or the training up of those skills, to be changed. I’m looking for additional content where rogue skills can be utilized.

Kirthag said:

Why for @ popps you say Rogues are having less to do?!?!?!? Do you even HAVE a Rogue character? 

it is not just me saying that ......

https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/31835/#Comment_31835

Re: Herbs - I'm apprehensive to add these to additional areas of the world.  I understand the concern that the limited spawn of them makes them difficult to acquire, however, I think the dried herbs fall into a unique category.  They've been around for a very, very long time.  They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do.

Kyronix says ..... "They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do."

And, as I said, I frankly wholeheartedly and totally agree with him on that.

I am thinking PvM Rogue, you guys are thinking of PvP Rogue.

While PvP Rogue might be fine as it is, at least judging from the Rogues posting in this thread, to my viewing, and apparently also that of at least one Developer, the PvM content and playabillity of a Rogue is NOT.

Everyone knows what you are talking about @popps. You're still wrong. Just admit that you are completely clueless about this subject and that you should have kept your mouth shut from the beginning. Every time you double down you make yourself look even more ignorant. Go play the game instead of running your mouth about content that you obviously don't even do.

Yeah, the rogue is all about working around the rules and the devs. To play one successfully involves being creative. You whining about wanting more content just shows that you are too lazy to make your own and goes against everything the rogue is meant to be. Playing a rogue isn't for everyone... Especially @popps.

These last two posts are BS. You can enjoy playing a rogue without making a lot of other players unhappy. You're not even talking about PvP rogues. You're talking about being a'holes to other players. Even your own guildmembers. Wanting more game content for rogues isn't whining.

 If you have stuff get jacked from your house or pack in tram......... it is your fault for being stupid and not taking the simple precautions in your house and not vetting new guild members.  Remember if you have it, someone else wants it and if given they opportunity WILL take it from you....... in game or RL

@Tyrath, I had quite a few PKers try to gank me at my front door, wanting to loot my housekey off my body so they could take my house and everything in it. They never got my key. I had plenty of players run into my house and log off so they'd be able to log back in later and steal everything out of the house. No such thing as locking down your stuff then. I was always able to cover the tile they logged off on and block them from logging back inside the house. I've had plenty of really good PvP thieves *yoink* my reags or whatever else they could pull out of my pack. 

But no. I've never had anyone steal items or containers from me since public / private housing and lockdowns came into being. And I've never had a guild member pretend to want to be in a guild with me then steal from me.

I am glad not to know you.

LilyGrace said:

I am glad not to know you.

Never gave me a PP Imp....

Pawain said:

Never gave me a PP Imp....

Mariah said:

I believe this thread was meant to discuss the rogue skill set as used in pvm. Role playing a rogue is a totally different, and highly confrontational, aspect of the game that is better discussed elsewhere.

It is the same thing. The only difference is the player. The templates are the same. It would be hard to mess with one without messing with the other. Sure, add more dungeon stealables, I don't care. Start adding masteries and you are messing with what I do and I have a problem with that. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is a PvM thief is just a thief that chooses to not play all of the content available to them. 

There are a lot of things I don't notice. If I noticed you I would have called you a NOOB.  Nella has a constant Stink.

 You rogue characters are hardcore even for a pure Feluccan.

I love playing my rogue, I think they are well balanced in terms of playability, I don't think they need any masteries as it is likely it would mess them up more than give them anything,

I use my rogue a little in PvP, and a lot for PvM rogueing, find it very relaxing and fun, I actually enjoy dungeon chests etc. I have never actually had the stomach to steal off other players in a real sense, though I'm happy to go to war with them, kill them and fully loot them! But that is just down to my shard domination competitive style character...

I certainly get when players say this is a class just for fun.

Due to the way I play mine, I do also get those who say the rogue could use a little more in PvM. I do believe the gold from them is sort of ok, Ararat hidden chests, and Kotl hidden chests have ok loot, no problems with them. Exodus, I quite frankly find too hard to do, too many mobs, cannot do the content. The armour/weapon loot in dungeon chests could maybe use a boost, it is still very 2000's era. I did really enjoy the Khaldun hidden chests, and hunting for the artifacts there, and I liked the artifacts artwork and concept a lot. What did in fact upset me there, was the absolute impossibility of it - I recall physically burning myself out in Khaldun and getting nothing at all, whilst players who had put in 3x less effort than me, managed to get stuff - basically, I really hate the RNG in this game, always have, because I never ever seem to get stuff. It's not like I don't play the content, I really do, I put so much effort in - anyway, enough of that. So I'm going to back Popps up a bit here, in that maybe a PvM rogue, could use a little boost in content.

Going to add an edit for just a couple of small ideas for loot. I often think I'd like to see a T-Map as a rare reward in a dungeon chest. The Kotl city flavour rewards are fine, and I think you get a lot of small gems and gold. Exodus, I think it's Exodus keys which is clever, and some imbuing regs which is good. Ararat I believe is larger gems which is fine. I enjoyed the Khaldun Event loot, which was basically the peerless ingredients for Scrappers Compendium which are an impossibility to get hold of in quantities required to make Scrappers, so that concept was welcomed. So I think things I'd potentially like to see, would be more ingredients etc. I think if you gave PvM rogues a way to collect event keys, would be cool, just another way to play for collecting event keys.

One thing I've often wanted for Rogues - is like a secret Easter Egg style hide and seek. Just anywhere on the map {Felucca}, have a secret room, or passage, or puzzle trapped room, and put something unique in it, for say just a month. Do that once a month, change location. Let the players know something is out there, leave it for a small period, and see what happens - Maybe only have 1 reward per Server, then shut it down. Make the entire Rogue base go hunting - like Indiana Jones, or Laura Croft.

Cookie said:

One thing I've often wanted for Rogues - is like a secret Easter Egg style hide and seek. Just anywhere on the map {Felucca}, have a secret room, or passage, or puzzle trapped room, and put something unique in it, for say just a month. Do that once a month, change location. Let the players know something is out there, leave it for a small period, and see what happens - Maybe only have 1 reward per Server, then shut it down. Make the entire Rogue base go hunting - like Indiana Jones, or Laura Croft.

How bout we fix the masteries we have first before adding more tires onto the fire.

popps said:

Kirthag said:

Why for @ popps you say Rogues are having less to do?!?!?!? Do you even HAVE a Rogue character? 

it is not just me saying that ......

https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/31835/#Comment_31835

Re: Herbs - I'm apprehensive to add these to additional areas of the world.  I understand the concern that the limited spawn of them makes them difficult to acquire, however, I think the dried herbs fall into a unique category.  They've been around for a very, very long time.  They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do.

Kyronix says ..... "They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do."

And, as I said, I frankly wholeheartedly and totally agree with him on that.

I am thinking PvM Rogue, you guys are thinking of PvP Rogue.

While PvP Rogue might be fine as it is, at least judging from the Rogues posting in this thread, to my viewing, and apparently also that of at least one Developer, the PvM content and playabillity of a Rogue is NOT.

My rogue is less PVP and more RPVM - if you met/know her, you'd know.

To be clear, my rogue character is primarily a dungeon crawler - exploring. She will loot the corpses people miss as they are running amock in a dungeon (especially noobs). She sometimes creates blockades to assist young players in dungeons - and all they see is "something" for the briefest moment. My rogue travels the shards, looking for IDOCs, pilfering, and looting what she can to either sell on the mall shard or bring back to Pacific.

My rogue is also a collector of... uhm.... "fine intelligence" - particularly on and for cross-shard guilds and certain nefarious players - I have 12gigs worth of screenies that can be.. uhm... delivered... if the right questions are asked. She is also a lurker at champs - not to alert friends.. but to thwart others or even to work a spawn herself (which is interesting to do, given her character). 

And those are just small samples of what XXXXXX does in-game. There is a lot more, but I fear she would lose her place in the society of which she belongs. I won't even whisper her name on the forums lest she loses the trust of so many.

There is more to being a successful rogue character than playing dev-provided content. Rogues have a certain skill set that allows them to go places, see events, and do things that border on EM or even GM stature. It is all game mechanics... if a person REALLY learns how to play a rogue.

And it is not the fault of the rogue-class that so many others have fallen to their wily ways. There are game mechanics to prevent a rogue from doing certain things - it seems the greater population has forgotten them.

Their loss.

And not all rogues are bad - "bad" depends on which side of a story a person is on. 

The point is, long time rogues (many of them dropping in here) have very developed toons and partake of activities daily for fun-filled hours on end - it is just not in the awareness of the general population; it is preferred as such. If we were, then what's the sense of being a rogue?!? The core of the class is secrecy.... 

If some of you here want to infer that players of rogues, looking for new dev-created content, lack imagination, that's fine. If you want to infer a player hasn't REALLY learned to play a rogue because they're not involved in spying on other guilds, or stealthing around an IDOC (Like, who hasn't?), that's okay I guess. 

If you want to claim others are not really ballsy rogues because they haven't infiltrated a guild in order to steal from them later, yeah ok. Or if you're of a mind that you can't be a truly edgy rogue if you're not sneaking into public houses (In Trammel where you can't be attacked), trying to catch someone moving a crate, that's fine too. But frankly, I think it's all BS and it comes off as snobbery.

The only thing suggested in this thread that would impact playstyles or builds for you ancient, wise, edgy and well played rogues would be if the OP's suggestion, that Masteries be added for rogue skills, actually came to pass. That's unlikely. So why some of you are compelled to school and belittle other players of rogues, whose styles differ from your own, is baffling to me.

Let's be clear, none of us takes a single step in this game without taking part in dev-created content. Whether you're busy getting other players to trust you so you can steal from them, or you're fancying yourself the best ever role-played rogue with almost GM-like powers, you're working within the confines of what game developers have created for you. Part of what makes dev-created content great is a sharing of ideas between players and game developers. So why are some of you discouraging other players from contributing their ideas, prattling on with your self proclaimed 1337ness?  

LilyGrace said:

So why are some of you discouraging other players from contributing their ideas, prattling on with your self proclaimed 1337ness?  

Because past has shown when asked for "love" we get complete overhauls that are the exact opposite of these player idea conversations. The outcome can go either way but being creatures of habit in a 22 year old game, change isn't always for the better. A perfect example is the recent negative feedback from t-maps. A good change was the taming revamp.

If you read the posts closely you'll see the true intention was a possible revamp with the thought of revenue comparable to a samp without using the template to it's full potential against other players.

Could there be more to do? Yes! Should that include redoing the whole system? NO!

Kirthag said:

popps said:

Kirthag said:

Why for @ popps you say Rogues are having less to do?!?!?!? Do you even HAVE a Rogue character? 

it is not just me saying that ......

https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/31835/#Comment_31835

Re: Herbs - I'm apprehensive to add these to additional areas of the world.  I understand the concern that the limited spawn of them makes them difficult to acquire, however, I think the dried herbs fall into a unique category.  They've been around for a very, very long time.  They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do.

Kyronix says ..... "They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do."

And, as I said, I frankly wholeheartedly and totally agree with him on that.

I am thinking PvM Rogue, you guys are thinking of PvP Rogue.

While PvP Rogue might be fine as it is, at least judging from the Rogues posting in this thread, to my viewing, and apparently also that of at least one Developer, the PvM content and playabillity of a Rogue is NOT.

My rogue is less PVP and more RPVM - if you met/know her, you'd know.

To be clear, my rogue character is primarily a dungeon crawler - exploring. She will loot the corpses people miss as they are running amock in a dungeon (especially noobs). She sometimes creates blockades to assist young players in dungeons - and all they see is "something" for the briefest moment. My rogue travels the shards, looking for IDOCs, pilfering, and looting what she can to either sell on the mall shard or bring back to Pacific.

My rogue is also a collector of... uhm.... "fine intelligence" - particularly on and for cross-shard guilds and certain nefarious players - I have 12gigs worth of screenies that can be.. uhm... delivered... if the right questions are asked. She is also a lurker at champs - not to alert friends.. but to thwart others or even to work a spawn herself (which is interesting to do, given her character). 

And those are just small samples of what XXXXXX does in-game. There is a lot more, but I fear she would lose her place in the society of which she belongs. I won't even whisper her name on the forums lest she loses the trust of so many.

There is more to being a successful rogue character than playing dev-provided content. Rogues have a certain skill set that allows them to go places, see events, and do things that border on EM or even GM stature. It is all game mechanics... if a person REALLY learns how to play a rogue.

And it is not the fault of the rogue-class that so many others have fallen to their wily ways. There are game mechanics to prevent a rogue from doing certain things - it seems the greater population has forgotten them.

Their loss.

And not all rogues are bad - "bad" depends on which side of a story a person is on. 

The point is, long time rogues (many of them dropping in here) have very developed toons and partake of activities daily for fun-filled hours on end - it is just not in the awareness of the general population; it is preferred as such. If we were, then what's the sense of being a rogue?!? The core of the class is secrecy.... 

No doubt, all you say is very interesting.

Nonetheless, not all players play the same way and particularly in the way as you describe, many, do go by the content that is Designed to exist for them...... so, I wonder, "if" the Developers were to "enhance" the content for PvM Rogues, at least, would that hurt your particular gameplay ?

I do not think so.

You could still enjoy and have your particular gameplay while other players, just playing by the content provided to them by the Developers, will "also" be able to enjoy playing a Rogue character following "their" preferred way of playing.....

I think we need to well keep in mind one thing, which it is, that not all players play the same game in the same way.... not even the same template or profession.... as I see it, a succesfull game (i.e. one that has a large players' base, IMHO) is one that has a Design that is capable of entertaining and catering different preferences in gameplay in different players, even when playing the same Class character....

At least, that is the way I see it.

popps said:

....Design that is capable of entertaining and catering different preferences in gameplay in different players, even when playing the same Class character....

.... and that is why UO is so very unique.

There is no "designed" character class in UO. There are skills that make up a class, BUT the game itself is not designed for fixed classes. This is why UO is successful (a game that generates positive revenue with a profit margin) for so long. It is really the ONLY game that allows players to select skills and to customize their base statistics - even after attaining full skill/stat development. Even SotA is a bit more fixed in skill sets - once you choose your base skills, you go along a fixed "tree" - you cannot change it. Only UO allows you to "remember" your past skills via the Soulstone. No other game has that for a single character/toon.

Today, Players develop (and are encouraged to do so) characters using a general template, but they are not required to do so. That is why UO is awesome. A fixed-rogue-class is useful for... what? Dungeon crawling - about it. In just about every other game in every genre, a "rogue" can snoop, pick locks, find hidden passages, steal from the environment (but don't steal from a player!), disarm traps, and what have you. Most Rogues in UO are a hybrid mix of skills. Some are Mage/Rogue, Fighter/Rogue, Bard/Rogue. Rarely do you actually come across a "pure rogue" in UO.

That leads to the question, what are the "Rogue Skills"?
Snooping - core
Stealing - core
Hiding - core
Stealth - core
Remove Trap - core (morphed to Treasure Hunter)
Lockpicking - core (morphed to Treasure Hunter)
Poisoning - with Fencing
Alchemy - if you don't already have an Inscriptionist/Mage/Alchemist in your roster
Healing
Taste ID (old-time use, almost pointless today)
Forensic ID (old-time use, almost pointless today)
Begging (more of a subclass of the Rogue... purely for environmental use)
Ninjitsu (another subclass, the "magical rogue" if you wanna get technical)
Some combat skill (most of the time Fencing, to use poisoning)

Then you have your Mage/Rogue (is more mage than rogue), and Bard/Rogue (again, more bard), or Tamer/Rogue (again, more tamer). These Hybrid Classes use some of the core skills mentioned above to augment their activity, but I wouldn't call these Rogues in the classical sense of the term. Subclasses of the "Rogue" use some, but not all, of the skills associated... these would be your Treasure Hunters and Beggars... but even these are primarily Mages, Bards, or Tamers.

I remember a time when treasure hunting was for the Rogue class in UO. However, the Treasure Hunter has come to be as a class unto itself. When you think about it - THAT IS A ROGUE. They "steal from the environment" in UO's treasure hunting - and that there is a dastardly deed according to game mechanics. I'm sure some Mage, Ranger, Artisan, or Warrior NPC within the realm is forlorn that their map was lost or stolen (by something in the game) and found by someone who dug up their supply, stash, cache, horde, or trove.

Also, UO is DESIGNED to allow players to "do as they will" within the game's many rulesets - sandbox, remember? No preset course of actions, and limited quest lines. Quests and content can be used to raise skill, but are not the defacto to do such. So many other games use guided-play and must-do strategy (which is an oxymoron if you ask me) for a character to gain in rank/skill. Those games get boring and predictable after a time, a grind-fest.

I don't think the question is whether the "Rogue Class" need masteries to be more satisfying, or even if the devs need to create more content for the use of the neglected core rogue skills (snooping, stealing, hiding, stealth). The development of direct content for those skills is just a matter of adding more accessible content for everyone's use. Although, there is Felucca...  which is really the place for a Rogue-classed character. After all, as witnessed in this thread, many posters despise the true Rogue Class.

In writings going back to antiquity, rogue (a term used loosely) is basically someone who is outside of the given society, who is good/bad - depending on who is affected. A rogue performs deeds others wouldn't dare to. To make a rogue more appealing to the masses for gameplay just... ruins the class. Even in D&D, Rogue is a title given to those who use certain skills in dastardly ways - but the main party doesn't really need a person in that capacity. The Bard could easily have a knack for lockpicking, and the mage would find hidden passages. 

Even by definition, a rogue is unscrupulous... a villain. 


~~~

Perhaps, a more apt request would be to develop a more rogueish cause in the game... but then people are not happy with what that entails, judging from this thread. If a  whole new army of "rogues" were to come into being in UO.... people would not be happy at all.

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popps said:

Nonetheless, not all players play the same way and particularly in the way as you describe, many, do go by the content that is Designed to exist for them...... so, I wonder, "if" the Developers were to "enhance" the content for PvM Rogues, at least, would that hurt your particular gameplay ?

I do not think so.

Tyrath said:

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 Probably not is if were just limited to adding more useless stuff to steal . 

 

  Another possible solution for the pollyanna candy land 

  Masteries while not changing anything that you cry about, 

You can't help yourself can you?

*polishes an apple and leaves it on Kirthag's desk*  Gee! Thanks, Teach!

I promised myself I wouldn't spin my wheels in a rogue thread unless devs want to talk about rogues. I'll go back to that thinking and save myself some aggravation. 

LilyGrace said:

Tyrath said:

.

 Probably not is if were just limited to adding more useless stuff to steal . 

 

  Another possible solution for the pollyanna candy land 

  Masteries while not changing anything that you cry about, 

You can't help yourself can you?

*polishes an apple and leaves it on Kirthag's desk*  Gee! Thanks, Teach!

I promised myself I wouldn't spin my wheels in a rogue thread unless devs want to talk about rogues. I'll go back to that thinking and save myself some aggravation. 

Tyrath said:

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   What exactly would adding masteries to the thief skills add   to change the current highly scriptable situation?  Another possible solution for the pollyanna candy land everyone gets a participation award player mindset would be to Instance every dungeon and the stealables in them.  That is a bad solution as well though as it would quickly flood the market with the stuff making it just as worthless as it is if you can't obtain it in the first place.

  Masteries while not changing anything that you cry about, I could go with IF BIG IF  at 120 stealing, 120 stealth, 100 snooping, 100 detect, 100  RT , 100 Hiding and a LvL 3 primer For Stealing............. you could steal from other players in Tram.  Since there is insurance and bless there are mechanics in place to prevent everything but cursed items from being stolen.  If someone is foolish enough to sit or walk around without things in their pack being insured they should be able to lose said things 🙂  And to be fair have the guard whack rules apply and the corpse of the thief lootable by all when the thief gets guard whacked.

Let me make an example..... Exodus Keys....

There is the Rogue's path to get them, and the Crafter's path (aside from the Warrior's path but that is another story...).

Now, personally, even with GM and Legendary Rogue skills in all that matters, that is, Detect Hidden, Lockpick, Stealing, Hiding, Stealth, Remove Trap and Snooping (mind you, we are looking at an investment of some 740 points total....), the time it takes to gather the Exodus Keys as compared to a Crafter who simply needs to "press a button" is way longer.....

Even at 100.0 Remove Trap, it hardly EVER works on the hidden Chests, way too often the Ball of Knowledge reports either "Too Challenging" or "Very Challenging" and the inevitable fail results in the Rogue character poisoned and having to deal, totally unprepared to fight with some 740 skil points already invested in non-combat skills, with the surrounding spawn.....

Compare this with a Crafter who, in their comfortableness of their Home, can quietly make that Key with no worries.....

Not to mention that, the keys that the Rogue gathers, come with the well known timer and, if a group is not found to hunt then Exodus, they go "poof" and all the work done to gather them, gets wasted.... the crafter, instead, has the invaluable luxury to make them "on demand", right when they are needed and not worry about the timer.....

All this to say, that I think the making of the keys from Crafters should have been Designed to be more complex, time consuming and costly because, as it is now, it "hurts" the Rogue's patch and gathering of the keys using that particular gameplay....

The "competition" from Crafters, simply, to my opinion "kills" the playability of a Rogue character to gather the Exodus keys.... and this, in addition to the fact that the investment of 100.0 skill points in Remove Trap results practically useless since those Traps hardly ever get removed....

Players usually tend to find what is more convenient to them.... therefore, when the Designers put in direct competition different Templates, like in this case with the Exodus keys, of course that players would soon identify what is "more efficient" to get to that wanted item and use that path rather then another.... and so the Rogue's gameplay suffers...

That's one example, but others could be made. My point being, as I said, that it is an issue of BALANCE, that is, there should not be too much difference in the profitability of different professions in UO otherwise, what players would do, is inevitably flock towards that one type of Template which is most effective to gather wealth..... and the other Templates would then suffer.

At least, that is the way i see it.

I have watched this thread carefully. The over-simplification of the difficulty in crafting Exodus keys together with refusal to accept input from experienced pvm and pvp players of the template have convinced me that this thread is merely garrulous troll.