Parry Balance Discussion

Greetings!

We would like to continue the balance discussion about the Parry skill in the current PvP meta. Below are the two solutions that are currently on the table:

• The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced by 15%-25%* for defenders that use refinements or have spell skills (Magery, Necromancy, Mysticism, or Spellweaving) that are greater than or equal to 70.0

or

• Players using spell skills (Magery, Necromancy, Mysticism, or Spellweaving) will have their faster casting cap reduced by 1 to 2 points* when their parry skill is greater than or equal to 70.0

*Reduction values subject to change.

The goal for these changes are to provide a balance between hybrid templates vs mage/dex templates and emphasize the differences in template selection. Publish 104 will also allow players to view their last parry chance.

We look forward to your feedback on the proposed changes. If you have any additional suggestions regarding the parry skill we are open to ideas.

Suggestion:

• The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced by 15%-25%* for defenders that have over 720.0 total skill points. Determine how much wiggle room for skill points above 720.
• Set a hard modified skill cap and leave the Parry skill alone.

TLDR - If you make this change it will just result in somebody who min/maxes to death their characters to find the optimal template setup to work around either of the proposed changes so in a week instead of parry mages you have some other template like a herding begger lol

Seeing how the discord pvp changes had had inadvertent changes to the pvm, I would prefer if they just left it alone to be honest because if these changes affect my sampire in any way that is related to pvm I and anybody else who enjoys being a samp may just be quite upset and do something else. As for pvp I could give two craps about that pvp is so broken in this game and there is so many people using illegal programs that unless you have been playing uo nonstop for 20 years or you join them and use programs that remove field graphics or remove trees or other objects weather dynamic or static you basically watch them run around nonstop casting spells without rubberbanding and watch your health bar drop to zero while watching the client tell me You cannot cast that yet. 

As a main parrymage my 2 cents.

Few things to address:

Evasion should be nerfed/removed from pvp

90 dex will change nothing. Should require 125-150 dex to parry

Keep parry in but instead of parrying all damage you take x amount of damage based on real parry skill and dex (sure throw in real tactics andd weapon skill. Exclude anatomy/eval and wrestling from it)

There is no loss to refining more resists while sacrificing dci, because you're actually harder to hit with 25/30 dci 120 parry 80 dex vs 45 dci 120 parry 80 dex. Refinements should be more accessible to newer players or should only work in PvM.

If I would have to pick between those two options then I would pick the bottom one, But I still think there are better options.

Lastly and off topic: why don't we use statics forum? It has been around for 20 years and has built a huge community throughout then. I just found out about these forums today. Seems counter productive to have two forums for players. Just my two cents. 

Bleak said:

Greetings!

We would like to continue the balance discussion about the Parry skill in the current PvP meta. Below are the two solutions that are currently on the table:

• The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced for defenders that use refinements or have spell skills (Magery, Necromancy, Mysticism, or Spellweaving) that are greater than or equal to 70.0

or

• Players using spell skills (Magery, Necromancy, Mysticism, or Spellweaving) will have their faster casting capped when their parry skill is greater than or equal to 70.0

The goal for these changes are to provide a balance between hybrid templates vs mage/dex templates and emphasize the differences in template selection. Publish 104 will also allow players to view their last parry chance.

We look forward to your feedback on the proposed changes. If you have any additional suggestions regarding the parry skill we are open to ideas.

Although I think both of these changes are terrible-  Why did you not include the broken 4/6 chiv on the list of spellcasters?  It is the most broken spellcaster in game. If you are going to go through with either of these awful ideas- be sure to add it to ALL casters.  Thanks.

Although I think both of these changes are terrible-  Why did you not include the broken 4/6 chiv on the list of spellcasters?  It is the most broken spellcaster in game. If you are going to go through with either of these awful ideas- be sure to add it to ALL casters.  Thanks.


How much is parry reduced if you have refinements/over 70 in scenario A?


What is your fc capped at in scenario B? 


It feels like you guys have not thought this through as per usual.


Also- if you are going to reduce something for a mage for having refinements- what gets reduced on a pure dexer?  Kinda seems weird that one temp can have it with no disadvantage and another can't.

PARRY should be hard capped at 25% for mages and dexxers with DCI REFINEMENTS. Or any one with magery and parry  skill above 70 should have a hard cap of 30% Parry chance. there could be a npc that people can remove dci refinements from mage suits just like how you can remove mage armor. also should be able to put mage armor back on. 

amit said:

Few things to address:

Evasion should be nerfed/removed from pvp

Suggestion : If any template has more than X total skillpoints in combine parry and resist spells, the effectiveness of both are reduced by X%.

Anticipated results : All pvp templates have a weakness. No impact to traditional classes.

Would it help to reduce the parry chance if total skill points are over 720 (or slightly higher) , since this would help balance the difference between hybrid templates vs mage/dex templates as Bleak stated?

If you limit the change to PvP I couldn't care less.
If you can't and PvM is affected then my feeling is if a player choses to spend the skill and dext. points on Parry than why shouldn't he/she get the benefit.

The amount of extra skill points you can pick up from items or refinements is different issue and should at least be looked at with out capping skills effects.

Yeah let’s make the game even more complicated...

Would it help to reduce the parry chance if total skill points are over 720 (or slightly higher) , since this would help balance the difference between hybrid templates vs mage/dex templates as Bleak stated?

Best solution. agreed.

Any chance you can make it so that you don’t need a degree in quantum game mechanics to compete in pvp?

CovenantX said:

# 1 or # 2 huh...

1) We need to know what the parry chances are reduced to.

2) We need to know what the new caps on Fc & Fcr would be.

 # 2 - would be pretty damn crippling if it's a penalty to both Fc & Fcr, but mages shouldn't get the best possible defense & the best possible offense at the same time -which is what they have right now.

That's a pretty ridiculous statement that parry mages have the best offense and defense in the game.  Parry mages with wrestle/anat give up the offense of using a wep.  Weps are by far the most powerful offense/DPS in the game.  Splintering is the most powerful special in game.  They lose both of these.  Defense wise- evasion and chiv are both more powerful and i'd argue 4 second band aids are too.  Parry mages have a good mix of both offense and defense- but they lack any good damage to actually kill any decent mage or dexer.  

Don't lower the casting due to parry... that is just dumb.  If you want to lower the parry chance for casters I don't have a huge problem with it depending how much you're lowering it (30% max parry chance is OK with me), but you have to nerf evasion somehow.  Evasion nerf options:

1.) Make it a longer cast
2.) Double the cool down
3.) decrease the evasion chance
4.) change evasion so that it just applies normal parry chances to magic dmg for the window 

Ya parry is only a problem for archers melee dexxers have no problem splinter helps for them but a pure archer not much of a chance against wrestle parry with being able to spam disarm 

nerf parry add bush parry pop evasion even better than parry by itself 

Paithan said:

CovenantX said:

# 1 or # 2 huh...

1) We need to know what the parry chances are reduced to.

2) We need to know what the new caps on Fc & Fcr would be.

 # 2 - would be pretty damn crippling if it's a penalty to both Fc & Fcr, but mages shouldn't get the best possible defense & the best possible offense at the same time -which is what they have right now.

That's a pretty ridiculous statement that parry mages have the best offense and defense in the game.  Parry mages with wrestle/anat give up the offense of using a wep.  Weps are by far the most powerful offense/DPS in the game.  Splintering is the most powerful special in game.  They lose both of these.  Defense wise- evasion and chiv are both more powerful and i'd argue 4 second band aids are too.  Parry mages have a good mix of both offense and defense- but they lack any good damage to actually kill any decent mage or dexer.  

• Players using spell skills (Magery, Necromancy, Mysticism, or Spellweaving) will have their faster casting capped when their parry skill is greater than or equal to 70.0 its the worst things you can do and its going to kill all the parry caster template,.
• The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced for defenders make more sense and if its for everyone .its not parry and caster school the problem its parry.
  
• dont touch refinements ,if you raise resist you lose dci and if you raise  dci you lose resist.
• if you going to nerf parry ,remove it from the restriction list for pure mage
•  you have to nerf evasion somehow and 4/6 chiv

Parry and Mage shouldnt exist in one char without any penalties, it brings inbalance. If a mage want to take parry for 35% more parry chance he has to sacrifice his magical potential and cap of 1 fc and 4 fcr is the good sacrifice. Regarding evasion, just make duration depending from parry, 1 sec per 20 parry skill and 1 sec bonus for GM parry. So sampire wouldnt affect, because nearly everyone use 120 parry and this are 7 sec evasion. If a mage take 59,9 parry without getting penalty of 1 fc and 4 fcr cap, he'll get just only 2 sec evasion and this is rly nothing comparing to currently situation.

Both are not good. Granted we ALL know some half assed fix will go in where u guys just nerf something because you refuse to try and balance it, for some reason you guys prefer the bandaid and forget about it process.

Why not change parry into a damage reduction formula, and change evasion to not work if magery, mysticism, or spellweaving at greater than 70(with or without skill increase).
Requirements 
(spells casting school mage,Myst,spellweaving -70)
95 dex
———————
1% Damage Evasion per 10 points parry
3% Damage Absorbtion per 10 point parry.
so at 120 Parry + 95 dex you have a 12% chance to evade(parry) the attack completely and have a 36% absorption. Which means an Armor Ignore would do 22-23 damage. 

CovenantX said:

   Mages typically do have much higher offense & defense than dexers do.

  4/6 chivalry is the only thing that exceeds the recovery (healing) over any other template, but they lack the offense to kill anyone.  

 

That being said, I'm glad they're going the skill vs skill route to adjust parry, I don't see a reason to add all the casting skills to it though, Chivalry is debatable...  but Necro, Mysticism, or Spellweaving?   Those skills aren't really useful as standalone skills, they basically need to be combined with magery for them to be viable.

They support Magery very well (and all of those skills would be paired with Magery (maybe Chivalry) anyway) so just adding Magery to the list reducing parry would cover everything that's better than it should be without unnecessarily dragging unused templates down with it.

Side note:  some people posting here are against this because it would affect their 'sampire' (pvm) templates. (Necromancy &/Chivalry + parry) etc etc.

Parry just allows mages to get so many more spells off, regardless if the spell is offensive or defensive It's strong enough to where dexers might as well not even log in unless they have a group to gank with...  if a parry-mage plays defensive against any type of dexer, they'll never die.

Mages can compete with anything they want regardless if Parry is part of their template or not, one vs one or otherwise.

I also think it's pretty funny that you guys claim "evasion" is overpowered though.

I mean, the only thing that's changed with evasion came with global loot.....  that would be Mages can now use it with little to no sacrifice same deal with parry.

if parry chances are reduced w/Magery+Parry it should carry over to Evasion chances as a result of it.   (Magery & Chivalry perhaps? probably for the best)

We'll have to see what other options come about,  I'm not really a fan of the Fc/Fcr penalty  But, I will definitely go with it if that's the only option for a reasonable balance between mages & dexers in pvp.  Parry has been broken long enough.

the Refinement thing doesn't really make sense, it should be skill-only imo, but if it is based on refinements, there has to be away to remove refinements from Armor added Which there should be anyway.

Parry mages do not have more offense and defense then dexers. They have way less DPS and both their offense and defense can be interrupted.  If they are going to put something ridiculous in with casting classes- it should affect ALL classes.  Why does a dexer get to use parry and necro/chiv/etc with no punishment but a mage cant? 

 Makes no sense.  No "pure" skills are useful anymore as stand alone skills.  

This game is about balance.  You can have high offensive chars that can kill fast but have a lot of limitations/ you can have high defensive chars that are impossible to kill but cant kill anyone/ and you can have hybrid temps that have a mix of both.


Dexers do not have it rough with splintering wep.  They hit parry mages a lot and only need to string together a good 4 or so hits with splinter to kill someone.  The only class that I think has the short end of the stick right now is archers.


I would love to see you go up against good dexers one v one without parry. You would get eaten alive.

Evasion is overpowered.  That is why literally everyone uses it when group fighting.  The 12 second cool down on 8 seconds of evading 60% of spells?  That is a joke.


The only thing I can agree with you on is the refinements.

ezikel said:

• Players using spell skills (Magery, Necromancy, Mysticism, or Spellweaving) will have their faster casting capped when their parry skill is greater than or equal to 70.0 its the worst things you can do and its going to kill all the parry caster template,.
• The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced for defenders make more sense and if its for everyone .its not parry and caster school the problem its parry.
  
• dont touch refinements ,if you raise resist you lose dci and if you raise  dci you lose resist.
• if you going to nerf parry ,remove it from the restriction list for pure mage
•  you have to nerf evasion somehow and 4/6 chiv

I agree with everything said here.

Evasion especially.

4/6- remove curse is by far the biggest issue.  Low mana cost, fast cast, and removing EVERYTHING is a huge issue.

Cazador said:

Both are not good. Granted we ALL know some half assed fix will go in where u guys just nerf something because you refuse to try and balance it, for some reason you guys prefer the bandaid and forget about it process.

Why not change parry into a damage reduction formula, and change evasion to not work if magery, mysticism, or spellweaving at greater than 70(with or without skill increase).
Requirements 
(spells casting school mage,Myst,spellweaving -70)
95 dex
———————
1% Damage Evasion per 10 points parry
3% Damage Absorbtion per 10 point parry.
so at 120 Parry + 95 dex you have a 12% chance to evade(parry) the attack completely and have a 36% absorption. Which means an Armor Ignore would do 22-23 damage. 

Why would dexers only get to use the most overpowered spell in the game (especially VS mages)?  

That is a really bad idea.

@Paithan yeah, chivalry should be capped at 0/6 or 2/6 casting and should apply to this parry formula. 

Paithan said:

Parry mages do not have more offense and defense then dexers. They have way less DPS and both their offense and defense can be interrupted.  If they are going to put something ridiculous in with casting classes- it should affect ALL classes.  Why does a dexer get to use parry and necro/chiv/etc with no punishment but a mage cant? 

 Makes no sense.  No "pure" skills are useful anymore as stand alone skills.  

This game is about balance.  You can have high offensive chars that can kill fast but have a lot of limitations/ you can have high defensive chars that are impossible to kill but cant kill anyone/ and you can have hybrid temps that have a mix of both.


Dexers do not have it rough with splintering wep.  They hit parry mages a lot and only need to string together a good 4 or so hits with splinter to kill someone.  The only class that I think has the short end of the stick right now is archers.


I would love to see you go up against good dexers one v one without parry. You would get eaten alive.

Evasion is overpowered.  That is why literally everyone uses it when group fighting.  The 12 second cool down on 8 seconds of evading 60% of spells?  That is a joke.


The only thing I can agree with you on is the refinements.

And I think PVP is a very bias topic. It depends on the individuals' experience as well. Among my group of Asian PVP friends, the best PVP for war is NOT a Parry Mage. Why not hold a world class PVP tournament and see what are the real templates, the winner's template. After the competition, congrats the champion and then, Nerf his template. Cold.

All the options sounds bad. Would have been better to leave parry alone.

how much is the parry chance reduction going to be? 5%?

You can not "FIX" PVP with the current itemization of UO, alls you will do it make a different goto char. and people will whine about that.  The system needs a check to see what the person is fighting real person or computer controlled whatever.  If it is a real person/persons all mods are striped away and you are reverted back to playing PVP PRE-AoS where it was all about skill.  You are now fighting with 720 skill and GM items.  Strip out all the previous "balance fixes" and let the games begin.  Now lets see who the real PvPers are and not the beefed up stat/skill/equipment players, this is supposed to be PvP not EvE.

Paithan said:

Cazador said:

Both are not good. Granted we ALL know some half assed fix will go in where u guys just nerf something because you refuse to try and balance it, for some reason you guys prefer the bandaid and forget about it process.

Why not change parry into a damage reduction formula, and change evasion to not work if magery, mysticism, or spellweaving at greater than 70(with or without skill increase).
Requirements 
(spells casting school mage,Myst,spellweaving -70)
95 dex
———————
1% Damage Evasion per 10 points parry
3% Damage Absorbtion per 10 point parry.
so at 120 Parry + 95 dex you have a 12% chance to evade(parry) the attack completely and have a 36% absorption. Which means an Armor Ignore would do 22-23 damage. 

Why would dexers only get to use the most overpowered spell in the game (especially VS mages)?  

That is a really bad idea.

Oddly enough paith, regardless of what anyone says it’s a shit idea unless you say it. I think that’s obvious 

Seth said:

...are you trying to balance or make a template completely useless? I think what you are doing is the latter.

Same thought.

ArielHardy said:

The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced for defenders that have over 720.0 total skill points.

This..... maybe.... I still don’t like any nerf to parry mages because it’s a trade off of survival vs damage output. The only players that negate this trade off use 10plat suits to do it & don’t represent the bulk of UO.

I’d suggest going alil higher than 720 because even the most basic shield (hephaestus) has +10 parry. A 720 cap penalizes players for using one of the most basic shields designed for parry mages - would b silly. A 760-775 cap would make more sense as it gives players +15 on a bracelet and ring including the +10 parry shield & mayb +15 somewhere else (spellbook w/ 15 mage possibly).

This would balance those few in PvP using 30-45 skills on EACH jewl while not killing off a template.

Cazador said:

Both are not good.

Oddly enough paith, regardless of what anyone says it’s a shit idea unless you say it. I think that’s obvious 

True & True LOL.

***Edit*** Sorry abt the misquote Cazador, I cant figure this forums quoting mechanics right on my phone & I’m not at home.

Acid_Rain said:

Seth said:

...are you trying to balance or make a template completely useless? I think what you are doing is the latter.

Same thought.

ArielHardy said:

The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced for defenders that have over 720.0 total skill points.

This..... maybe.... I still don’t like any nerf to parry mages because it’s a trade off of survival vs damage output. The only players that negate this trade off use 10plat suits to do it & don’t represent the bulk of UO.

I’d suggest going alil higher than 720 because even the most basic shield (hephaestus) has +10 parry. A 720 cap penalizes players for using one of the most basic shields designed for parry mages - would b silly. A 760-775 cap would make more sense as it gives players +15 on a bracelet and ring including the +10 parry shield & mayb +15 somewhere else (spellbook w/ 15 mage possibly).

This would balance those few in PvP using 30-45 skills on EACH jewl while not killing off a template.

Cazador said:

Both are not good.

Oddly enough paith, regardless of what anyone says it’s a shit idea unless you say it. I think that’s obvious 

True & True LOL.

***Edit*** Sorry abt the misquote Cazador, I cant figure this forums quoting mechanics right on my phone & I’m not at home.

You Still can use the shield, just don't get te skill bonus oO (if you train parry up 120 and use that shield will still 120)

To me as a Pure Parry Mage this change is the easier to dev, and best to do to nerf the 800 skill suits.

You Still can use the shield, just don't get te skill bonus oO (if you train parry up 120 and use that shield will still 120)

To me as a Pure Parry Mage this change is the easier to dev, and best to do to nerf the 800 skill suits.

Training to 120 defeats the entire purpose of the shield. Finding balance by nerfing a desirable item for the template doesn’t make sense to me.

Most jewelry that’s desirable to farm has some +skills. 720 seems low for a penalty. The balance should affect ridiculously high numbers (800 and up are a balance problem)  but allow some room for commonly used items like the +12 scrappers or +15 spellbook & the +10 Hephaestus. A +15 jewl (2 jewl so +30 total) doesn’t seem that far fetched which is how I got those numbers. Was trying to find a safe middle ground.

I guess it would mainly depend on just how much a % nerf they have in mind. I still think it would be better to rework the evasion formula on parry mages as that seems to be the bigger problem. 

yes. i don't think someone with only +10 skill points should suffer the same penalty as someone who has +100 skill points

I still don't understand the motivation for another round of 'nerf' for the parry image. 

The last round was about a year or so ago, where the parry skill being included in focus spec and spell damage is already reduced. 

Maybe whoever proposed to you is not a good pvp player. Try coming over to Asian servers, currently at Asuka where pvp war is fought. The last time I joined them in Formosa and Asuka, I dont recall the groups are swarming with Parry Mage.

In fact, I am trying to build a Bokuto Mage with Splintering myself, but it is so hard to build. One Japanese expert  spar with my Parry Mage and killed mine in like less than 30s. No kidding. And several times. I am still trying to figure out what he did.

Again I am not a great pvper but this is the easiest for me now. 

Please don't nerf the parry mage template anymore.

Seth said:

I still don't understand the motivation for another round of 'nerf' for the parry image. 

The last round was about a year or so ago, where the parry skill being included in focus spec and spell damage is already reduced.

........

Please don't nerf the parry mage template anymore.

Agreed 100%

Balance issues seem to be with bush/parry (evasion) & + 800 skills - NOT parry itself. 

Please reassess the suggested changes as both seem to not address the real problem.

Every round of balance ends with a handful of nerfs to multiple templates, a ton of upset players and ending with even more OP annoying templates.

We should look at the root cause imo which is the insane multi skill jewels being spawned to create all these templates. Instead of template nerfs the loot table should be adjusted so this issue and any thereafter will be resolved on it's own.

If the issue is bush parry mages, they should raise the tactic requirement for specials from 60 to 90. 

CovenantX said:

Paithan said:

Parry mages do not have more offense and defense then dexers. They have way less DPS and both their offense and defense can be interrupted.  If they are going to put something ridiculous in with casting classes- it should affect ALL classes.  Why does a dexer get to use parry and necro/chiv/etc with no punishment but a mage cant? 

 Makes no sense.  No "pure" skills are useful anymore as stand alone skills.  

This game is about balance.  You can have high offensive chars that can kill fast but have a lot of limitations/ you can have high defensive chars that are impossible to kill but cant kill anyone/ and you can have hybrid temps that have a mix of both.


Dexers do not have it rough with splintering wep.  They hit parry mages a lot and only need to string together a good 4 or so hits with splinter to kill someone.  The only class that I think has the short end of the stick right now is archers.


I would love to see you go up against good dexers one v one without parry. You would get eaten alive.

Evasion is overpowered.  That is why literally everyone uses it when group fighting.  The 12 second cool down on 8 seconds of evading 60% of spells?  That is a joke.


The only thing I can agree with you on is the refinements.

   The only way a dexer would have higher DPs is if they can hit ~70%+ of the time.

   and it's not about DPS, it never has been in pvp.    It's about Burst... Dexers have the low burst damage & no 'stack-ability' for combos.

 Pure Mages are the only useful 'pure' template out there.   Dexers can't compete without running away constantly, mages can, but they're still going to run if they get below 50-60% HP.... or before that.  I'm sure you know.

Evasion is "Overpowered" because Parry is overpowered....   Why else did everyone have Wrestle/Anatomy+Parry-mage before the Tactics requirement was reduced & non-focus spec wasn't a game-breaking penalty anymore?   (publish 96)  only dexers could go with evasion before global loot, instead they opted for archery because melee has terrible offense, now archers have terrible offense, and melee still has terrible offense....   No one cried about evasion until Mages were able to use it again.  you know why? because evade dexers can't f***ing kill anything, they're pretty much useless.   they need high defense to compensate the lack of offense.... sort of like chivalry, wonder why they capped chivalry at 2/6 if Magery is part of the template?   smh   I don't know how it's so easy for you guys to miss the problem completely, it's unbelievable to me.

Also, If your entire template depends on whether your weapon is Splintering or not, something's f****d up. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.   and um...What exactly stops a mage from using splintering Weapons?   Oh, right.. nothing it's just easier for a mage to kill people that are splintered because you don't need to worry about RNG preventing your spells from dealing damage. nor do you need to keep within 1-tile range before you know if the RNG is going to screw you or not.

Between Damage resistance % and % to avoid attacks (dodge/parry), skill-based methods of healing & consumables & low damage output, people are too hard to kill One vs One.  the only option for pvp has slowly become group pvp that's the problem.   there wasn't a point in UO's history that group pvp wasn't good.... but there also hasn't been a point until the recent years that group pvp was basically the only option.

Besides, Evasion doesn't make mages useless in pvp, but Parry alone pretty much makes dexers useless in pvp. sad day...

Everyone used anat + parry because you had double the SDI then.  15% on a bok mage vs 30 on a parry mage.  

Dexers are fine and can kill people easily (even with parry).  If someone is having trouble it is simply because they are bad.  The only temps that kind of suck now are archers.  I think they got nerfed way too hard.

I would be up for a global fix on parry by reducing its % chance by up to 10% where you are 25% at 120 and 20% at gm.

CovenantX said:

  The only way a dexer would have higher DPs is if they can hit ~70%+ of the time.

   and it's not about DPS, it never has been in pvp.    It's about Burst... Dexers have the low burst damage & no 'stack-ability' for combos.

 Pure Mages are the only useful 'pure' template out there.   Dexers can't compete without running away constantly, mages can, but they're still going to run if they get below 50-60% HP.... or before that.  I'm sure you know.

Evasion is "Overpowered" because Parry is overpowered....   Why else did everyone have Wrestle/Anatomy+Parry-mage before the Tactics requirement was reduced & non-focus spec wasn't a game-breaking penalty anymore?   (publish 96)  only dexers could go with evasion before global loot, instead they opted for archery because melee has terrible offense, now archers have terrible offense, and melee still has terrible offense....   No one cried about evasion until Mages were able to use it again.  you know why? because evade dexers can't f***ing kill anything, they're pretty much useless.   they need high defense to compensate the lack of offense.... sort of like chivalry, wonder why they capped chivalry at 2/6 if Magery is part of the template?   smh   I don't know how it's so easy for you guys to miss the problem completely, it's unbelievable to me.

Also, If your entire template depends on whether your weapon is Splintering or not, something's f****d up. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.   and um...What exactly stops a mage from using splintering Weapons?   Oh, right.. nothing it's just easier for a mage to kill people that are splintered because you don't need to worry about RNG preventing your spells from dealing damage. nor do you need to keep within 1-tile range before you know if the RNG is going to screw you or not.

Between Damage resistance % and % to avoid attacks (dodge/parry), skill-based methods of healing & consumables & low damage output, people are too hard to kill One vs One.  the only option for pvp has slowly become group pvp that's the problem.   there wasn't a point in UO's history that group pvp wasn't good.... but there also hasn't been a point until the recent years that group pvp was basically the only option.

Besides, Evasion doesn't make mages useless in pvp, but Parry alone pretty much makes dexers useless in pvp. sad day...

Personally, I am using a pure Parry Mage. 120 Magery, Eval Int, Med, Resist 120 Wresting, Parry Total Skills 720. It is too expensive to go for 820. So I am a regular PVP player who does not represent the best person out there. Your analysis is very detailed but yet: 1) It would affect a simple PVP player like me. 2) As mentioned earlier, the best Asia PVP players are absolutely not "Parry Mage". If they add Bushido, they are squeezing 100 skill points into a very tight template at very high cost. We are talking about 100 million per jewellery. If they have the budget for such suit, so be it. Salute to the Gear PVP Champion. I am happy with a pure Parry Mage just for fun sake. Also regarding this: "Parry alone pretty much makes dexers useless in pvp" - Then I think dexers should not wear any protective magical armor, as it makes mage spells useless. I have heard the Asukan PVP masters raised their fire resistance to 75 to counter the FS spell. They don't use parry mage. They are also as good or even better than you in PVP. Try search Youtube, organise a East Vs West Tournament as central location like Hawaii. Parry Mage isn't selling like hot cakes here. I am one of the 90% who doesn't have money to buy 820 skills jewels. Why not do this on Siege or Mugen?

It's almost impossible to say which option is best when there has been zero mention of what the penalty is going to be. Is the parry chance going to be cut in half like when you have less than 80 dex? Or is it going to be a flat 5% to 10% decrease?  

It makes a huge difference. Need some numbers here.

cobb said:

It's almost impossible to say which option is best when there has been zero mention of what the penalty is going to be. Is the parry chance going to be cut in half like when you have less than 80 dex? Or is it going to be a flat 5% to 10% decrease?  

It makes a huge difference. Need some numbers here.

I have updated the original post with the reduction values as well as the proposed alternative.

i dont believe any of these suggestions youve posted bleak are a good choice i think its much more simple to lower the chance to block a small % chance and honestly the only ones who this is even a problem for is archer we are disarm spammed non stop as if we could even hit enough to catch a kill on a parry mage that knows what he is doing but really i think a small % taken out of parry chance is the right thing to do not mess with casting or anything else 

My 2 Cents. 

Lower Parrying chance if the player has a shield equipped but no weapon/book. Suggested Same parry chance as a weapon with no shield. 120 parrying = 20%.

Lower parry Chance shift to one handed Weapons from bushido if Magery or Mysticism >= 60 or Chivalry Mastery is on.

Currently 120 Bushido + 120 Parry = 35% Parry Chance. Suggested 20% If Magery or Mysticism >= 60 Or Chivalry Mastery is on. This means 120 Bushido Mages/Holy Fisters could only really utilize 60 Parrying. 

That's where I would start. Shouldn't be much of a change for Pvm Players. 
 

@Bleak

First idea: First of all what does 15-25% reduction mean?  That is a huge gap.  I think a 10% reduction globaly would be more than adequate.  i.e. 25% at 120. If you do a 25% reduction that is 10% chance to parry at 120? and 5% at gm?  That is killing it and making it completely worthless.  That is not the idea of a nerf.

Refinements should have nothing to do with this change.

You should not limit it to casters.

2nd idea:  Awful and you ruin hybrid temps.  Hybrid temps are a mix between offense and defense.  I hope chiv users would get their fast cast reduced as well for having parry.  This should really not even be contemplated.

3rd idea:  I could get on board with a 10% reduction with over 820 skill points also.  <--- probably the best fix so then the people that do not have a bunch of gold on items can still play a 720 skill char and be ok.

Did anyone mention disarm for shields? That could probably be the best fix for wrestle/anat parry mages.

Paithan said:

Refinements should have nothing to do with this change.

Refinements with resists are broken on parry characters.

You sacrifice dci for more resists - although if you have 120 parry the way the game is set up now it actually makes you HARDER to hit with less DCI and parry.

If you're smart on your parry pvp chars, you really don't worry about your DCI. You ideally  want little to no DCI with parry. Test it on TC. See how much you tink. 🙂

First idea make refienment completely useless and only nerf caster.
2nd idea is terrible and make all caster with parry complete unplayable
3rd idea only nerf the over 720 skill and a guys with 120 parry and 719  are ok lol

Suggestion -keep the reduce of parry ,but for everyone one that ave parry
                    - remove parry from restriction list for pure mage. pure mage are not stronger that any other temp with parry
                   - raise the dci caps for non parry skill

amit said:

Paithan said:

Refinements should have nothing to do with this change.

Refinements with resists are broken on parry characters.

You sacrifice dci for more resists - although if you have 120 parry the way the game is set up now it actually makes you HARDER to hit with less DCI and parry.

If you're smart on your parry pvp chars, you really don't worry about your DCI. You ideally  want little to no DCI with parry. Test it on TC. See how much you tink. 🙂

I run 35-40% dci quite often.  I notice a big difference in how often I am hit with 35% vs 45% and both temps have parry.  So i will have to disagree.

ezikel said:

                 ...   - remove parry from restriction list for pure mage. pure mage are not stronger that any other temp with parry...
                  

My suggestion...

.25% block and evasion chance reduction for every point of skill over 770 (12.5% reduction at 820 skill).

Remove the dex requirement for block chance but make the dex requirement for shield bash to work at all be 80.

Result is that parry mages with less than 770 skill points who aren’t using their shield offensively get some mana back and keep their defense.  Dex requirement kicks in to use the shield offensively.  Excess +skill items achieve some balance by reducing block/evasion chance.

Wentoxxx said:

ezikel said:

                 ...   - remove parry from restriction list for pure mage. pure mage are not stronger that any other temp with parry...
                  

Pure mage is mage with only mage skills without any parry, in that case pure mage isnt affected by any nerfs, so you shouldnt be worry. If it has parry than its not more pure mage, but a parry mage. Parry mage in current version hast not only huge defence, but can still attack with shield bash and everyone know that. That's a big benefit and no need to understate that advantage to deal 35 damage with stun. As well parry mages cas disarm/stun with wrest. And for that build you dont need 720+ skill points. Also problem is by magery + parry in one build.

I can remember long time ago in the time before age of shadow, all shields were without property spell chaneling and if you want to cast any spell a shield droped into backpack. With release of AoS whole game changed a lot, and to bring some bonus to mages they could wear shields for getting its bonus in form of lmc, resist, dci. etc. But mages learned to abuse this feature and took parry as extra defence and this has brought us to the current discussion. A mage should be often hit by any meele than every 3-4-th hit. The current game mechanic cant forbid to anyone to take this skill, but it can bring much less benefit than now, because now its imbalanced. Every parry mage laught seeing how dexxer hit him every 3d hit with ~15-20 damage and he heal himself with "heal" spell in 0,25 for 13-15 hp. Even great heal has delay of 0,75 sec and heal huge amount of hp. By seeing that low cast time dont forget that meele can swing in best case with 1,25.  A parry mage even dont need to run from any dexxer, he can just stay and heal himself and even there a dexxer couldnt bring that parry mage under 50% hp and for sure couldnt kill it.

@ Bleak 

If you dont believe me you can create 2 chars on TC a parry mage and a dexxer. Then let a dexxer hit that parry mage and count how often he hit. After that you can build your own opinion regarding that case. If you see that a dexxer do enough damage and can kill that parry mage in currently form than you dont need to change anything. But I doubt it.

Ya and after you build them- let a real pvper build them and then try fighting a stacked dexer.  Fighting them with parry you have a shot at living.  Fighting without you'll have to have some good RNG not to die.

Merus said:

My suggestion...

.25% block and evasion chance reduction for every point of skill over 770 (12.5% reduction at 820 skill).

Remove the dex requirement for block chance but make the dex requirement for shield bash to work at all be 80.

Result is that parry mages with less than 770 skill points who aren’t using their shield offensively get some mana back and keep their defense.  Dex requirement kicks in to use the shield offensively.  Excess +skill items achieve some balance by reducing block/evasion chance.

This is a pretty cool idea.  But I think you would need a cap on the reduction (for both parry and evasion). 

Also- how do you get around jewels that have extra skill that you aren't using for your temp?  

Paithan said:

Merus said:

My suggestion...

.25% block and evasion chance reduction for every point of skill over 770 (12.5% reduction at 820 skill).

Remove the dex requirement for block chance but make the dex requirement for shield bash to work at all be 80.

Result is that parry mages with less than 770 skill points who aren’t using their shield offensively get some mana back and keep their defense.  Dex requirement kicks in to use the shield offensively.  Excess +skill items achieve some balance by reducing block/evasion chance.

This is a pretty cool idea.  But I think you would need a cap on the reduction (for both parry and evasion). 

Also- how do you get around jewels that have extra skill that you aren't using for your temp?  

Not sure a cap is needed.  The more +skill the more you balance the parry.  An 820 template loses 12.5%.... an 850 template loses 20%. 

This would be a choice in the +skill items you use.  Having +skill is a choice and there is already some flexibility built in with 50 skill points before the penalty starts to kick in.  Ultimately it would mean being a little more selective in +skill jewelry, but I’m not sure that is a bad thing.

Bleak said:

The goal for these changes are to provide a balance between hybrid templates vs mage/dex templates and emphasize the differences in template selection.

The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced by 15%-25%* for defenders that use refinements or have spell skills (Magery, Necromancy, Mysticism, or Spellweaving) that are greater than or equal to 70.0 or
Players using spell skills (Magery, Necromancy, Mysticism, or Spellweaving) will have their faster casting cap reduced by 1 to 2 points* when their parry skill is greater than or equal to 70.0

Ok, I've not played for a few weeks, work been really busy, and I've been into other hobbies etc, so I feel a bit rusty.

Of the 2 options, only 1 can really happen, ie the first option, reducing parry chance is "only" a nerf, whereas reducing faster cap casting is a complete wipe-out for a mage.

Back to the main goal, and I'm actually really glad you put this in, because it's often really hard trying to think what the solution is, when you don't precisely know what the Devs are even aiming for.

"The goal for these changes are to provide a balance between hybrid templates vs mage/dex templates and emphasize the differences in template selection. "

I am personally still struggling with the concept that parry is the issue at all.

When elite players say parry is the "issue", they mean their hybrids or dexxers cannot kill parry mages in about 10 seconds flat, so that's an "issue". The issue certainly isn't that parry style mages have such high dps they burst you down in seconds... {unlike the other way around}.

I don't even use parry, I run a pure mage, so I am unbiased in a sense, I used to run parry. I see friends run parry mages still, they only make their parry mages look good, because they are amongst the best pvpers and team players in the game. {Off topic - I would love to see you promote pure scribe mages, by raising our fast cast to 4...}.

The only way I see parry can be an issue, is on a parry bushido weapon mage, where they have the usage of evasion, confidence, parry, shield bash and - most importantly, all weapons and their related weapon skill specials. The problem with these hybrids, is they really get to use everything to the max, and current equipment allows them to have everything, stats and skills.

Now it all depends on how you class these templates - are they hybrids, is it the parry making them overpowered? My personal opinion is these are dexxers, they behave like modern dexxers, with full weapon usage and all related weapon specials, huge mana, huge dex, all being used to useful effect. They have a weapon usually, they have high dex, its this attacking force that is making them so highly destructive, not their defensive game (this just makes them annoying). And as others have mentioned, parry mages themselves, are certainly underpowered for damage, and do sacrifice a lot of stats for no reason.

Where am I going with this?

"To emphasize the differences between template selection".

Pure dexxers are obvious, pure mages are obvious (to make it more obvious - Healing , Inscription and Magic Resist skills need to be buffed to place more emphasis on pures - these are core skills that have been left to rot, to allow the rise of Hybrid characters to have it all - if these skills were more important, it would be harder to ditch them), Hybrids currently basically have everything. (But then dexxers are not far behind {with huge mana pools, massive weapon selection and lethal specials added to their already high dex} - hence parry being so universal in the first place as defence against this onslaught).

If a character goes Hybrid, it must (but doesn't currently) make a choice between being a defensive template, or an offensive template, or, it must chose between having it all, but being slightly weaker at it all. They cannot have it all, and be stronger in every aspect. The oldschool Archer Mages, were a classy template, really had to balance things off in a difficult way, they couldn't have everything - and the good ones, earned a lot of respect.

I personally do agree you need to rebalance Hybrids, but I'm not sure parry is the complete solution - a lot of this issue is caused by dexxers and their very wide ranging abilities, that Hybrids have tagged onto - many mages have developed dexxer tendancies, have it all, and have become a bit OP, but again to emphasize, much like certain dexxers out there also.

amit said:

Paithan said:

Refinements should have nothing to do with this change.

Refinements with resists are broken on parry characters.

You sacrifice dci for more resists - although if you have 120 parry the way the game is set up now it actually makes you HARDER to hit with less DCI and parry.

If you're smart on your parry pvp chars, you really don't worry about your DCI. You ideally  want little to no DCI with parry. Test it on TC. See how much you tink. 🙂

I want the ability to add mage armor back and take off refinements.  I only paly dexers and I don't think parry needs a nerf. I do however think evasion needs a fix.  I want it to not evade 100% and give like a 20-25% chance to hit them thru it.

Parry+Magery (shield & no bushido) maximum 'passive' block chance of 20% (from 35%)
Parry+Magery (1h weapon) maximum 'passive' block chance of 15% (from 30%)
Parry+Magery (2h weapon) maximum passive block chance of 25% (from 40%)

Chivalry+Parry (shield & no Bushido) maximum 'passive' block chance of 35% (no change)
Chivalry+Bushido+Parry (1h weapon) maximum 'passive' block chance of 15% (from 30%)
Chivalry+Bushido+Parry (2h weapon) maximum 'passive' block chance of 25% (from 40%)
Evasion: Increases Parry chance by up to 170% & allowing you to block magical attacks for the duration of effect.
Bushido+Parry+Magery block chance during evasion: (if Magery => 70.0 or higher)
40.5% block/evade with a 1h weapon.
67.5% block/evade with a 2h weapon.

Bushido+Chivalry+Parry: @120 parry
40.5% block/evade with 1h weapon
67.5% block/evade with 2h weapon

Bushido+Parry templates without Magery or Chivalry => 70.0 would have the full benefit of Parry (Shield) or Parry & Bushido (1h or 2h weapons) as follows.

81% block/evade with 1h weapon
100% block/evade with 2h weapon

Cookie said:

Ok, I've not played for a few weeks, work been really busy, and I've been into other hobbies etc, so I feel a bit rusty.

Of the 2 options, only 1 can really happen, ie the first option, reducing parry chance is "only" a nerf, whereas reducing faster cap casting is a complete wipe-out for a mage.

Back to the main goal, and I'm actually really glad you put this in, because it's often really hard trying to think what the solution is, when you don't precisely know what the Devs are even aiming for.

"The goal for these changes are to provide a balance between hybrid templates vs mage/dex templates and emphasize the differences in template selection. "

I am personally still struggling with the concept that parry is the issue at all.

When elite players say parry is the "issue", they mean their hybrids or dexxers cannot kill parry mages in about 10 seconds flat, so that's an "issue". The issue certainly isn't that parry style mages have such high dps they burst you down in seconds... {unlike the other way around}.

I don't even use parry, I run a pure mage, so I am unbiased in a sense, I used to run parry. I see friends run parry mages still, they only make their parry mages look good, because they are amongst the best pvpers and team players in the game. {Off topic - I would love to see you promote pure scribe mages, by raising our fast cast to 4...}.

The only way I see parry can be an issue, is on a parry bushido weapon mage, where they have the usage of evasion, confidence, parry, shield bash and - most importantly, all weapons and their related weapon skill specials. The problem with these hybrids, is they really get to use everything to the max, and current equipment allows them to have everything, stats and skills.

Now it all depends on how you class these templates - are they hybrids, is it the parry making them overpowered? My personal opinion is these are dexxers, they behave like modern dexxers, with full weapon usage and all related weapon specials, huge mana, huge dex, all being used to useful effect. They have a weapon usually, they have high dex, its this attacking force that is making them so highly destructive, not their defensive game (this just makes them annoying). And as others have mentioned, parry mages themselves, are certainly underpowered for damage, and do sacrifice a lot of stats for no reason.

Where am I going with this?

"To emphasize the differences between template selection".

Pure dexxers are obvious, pure mages are obvious (to make it more obvious - Healing , Inscription and Magic Resist skills need to be buffed to place more emphasis on pures - these are core skills that have been left to rot, to allow the rise of Hybrid characters to have it all - if these skills were more important, it would be harder to ditch them), Hybrids currently basically have everything. (But then dexxers are not far behind {with huge mana pools, massive weapon selection and lethal specials added to their already high dex} - hence parry being so universal in the first place as defence against this onslaught).

If a character goes Hybrid, it must (but doesn't currently) make a choice between being a defensive template, or an offensive template, or, it must chose between having it all, but being slightly weaker at it all. They cannot have it all, and be stronger in every aspect. The oldschool Archer Mages, were a classy template, really had to balance things off in a difficult way, they couldn't have everything - and the good ones, earned a lot of respect.

I personally do agree you need to rebalance Hybrids, but I'm not sure parry is the complete solution - a lot of this issue is caused by dexxers and their very wide ranging abilities, that Hybrids have tagged onto - many mages have developed dexxer tendancies, have it all, and have become a bit OP, but again to emphasize, much like certain dexxers out there also.

Stand by here people @Cookie is going to have a heart attack, are you ready for this, Cookie is %1000 RIGHT, there I said it.  I always thought that UO was suppose to be a sandbox not a sandbox with restrictions.  If you want to be "A" be A and understand A's strength and weakness or be "B" and understand those also.  UO needs to stop trying to FIX everything and let people be what they want.  I am a crafter so when is UO going to NERF everybody so my crafter is equal, it is not fair I tell you, WWHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Cookie said:

I personally do agree you need to rebalance Hybrids, but I'm not sure parry is the complete solution - a lot of this issue is caused by dexxers and their very wide ranging abilities, that Hybrids have tagged onto - many mages have developed dexxer tendancies, have it all, and have become a bit OP, but again to emphasize, much like certain dexxers out there also.

The most powerful skill is to run. Mages can't cast spell when running, and Dexers can't hit a target that is running away.

Given 2 pvper inside an arena with limited running space, who is at disadvantage? 

Mages because spells can be interrupted. Even if dexers can't always land a hit but he has an arsenal of powerful special moves that kill mages easily. Without parry protection, even 120 wrestling is rubbish. 

All the maths and theory, it depends heavily on the individual experience, combat scenario, war or 1vs 1 etc. 

Completely disagree with this statement below. I think this I a bias call.

"Parry chances should be reduced only if paired with Magery".

You only have mathematical theory and unproven in the field. As I said, the world isn't swarmed with Parry Mages as the no. 1 choice.

It is so funny that I am figuring out how to build a Bokuto Splintering mage with Boshido because I feel its more powerful than my 720 skill pure Parry Mage.

And someone dedicated an entire thread to nerf my so called poorer pvp template.

@Bilbo lol. 🙂

@Seth, I agree with a lot of what you say. I really cannot see how mage/parry is an issue.

Maybe it's triple combinations (of stuff that shouldn't go together - bit like Sampires in pvm) that are an issue, I'd possibly restart this, by collecting a more clear view of what the real issues for players are?

For example, CovenantX and myself have a completely opposite view re mages and dexxers, however I think we can both agree pure "focussed" mages and dexxers could use some attention. Both hardly exist, yet both were the backbone of pvp. (and for me, pvm also).

My worst parts of pvp include;

Running = the most powerful pvp asset. (I agree Seth).

• Mages have para spell, which is broken by trapped boxes instantly, or negated by magic resist (fair enough), but the combination of these means a large majority of templates can drop resist too easily, meaning hybrids have it too easy to add too many op skills. Mages cannot stop, or prevent dexxers from running. (Mystic mages can with sleep, but then they cannot have parry, which makes them instantly mincemeat v dexxers so is fair enough - however, if a template manages to gain Mystic + Mage + Parry effectively and have full regens and stats - that would be OP I agree.
• Dexxers have splintering, and dismount weapon specials. Both incredibly effective at slowing/stopping characters from running. It's all one way traffic. Mages have no dismount spells. {Maybe Mindblast - yes that completely unused spell, should have a chance to confuse, disorientate and dismount an opponent (if used on foot)...?}

Deathstrike = an unmounted ninja skill, not a mounted dexxer skill. Especially not dexxers that have managed to fit it all into their template by dropping resist, and using trapped boxes to stay on the run and be pretty much unkillable.

Flamestrike does zero damage almost. It's really hard in pvp even being able to cast higher circle spells, but when you do, and it doesn't even dent a dexxer… Then of course they just offscreen and come back full anyway. I think SDI needs to be increased. Maybe the nerf to fish-pies has fixed this, I've not actually pvp'd since the new patch so cannot comment.

I'll be honest, I've gone off pvp. A lot of my perspective is now that of Ex Mage pvper, but I can still discuss what turned me off. Mainly it was the unstoppable dexxer horde, that had all the weaponised hybrids added to their ranks. It just all got so skill-less.

@Cookie thanks

Back to the others, I don't agree with changing anything with Parry at all with only one spell school.

My simple Parry Mage
Magery 
Resist
EI
Med
Wrestling 
Parry 
6 x 120, maybe over 720 but the + skills are not useful.

Of all the most important thing in the world, you are going to nerf this template? Are you joking, is this template killing all the pvp in 1vs 1, arena and war all over the world. I must be a genius! But all my former pvp friends won't think so. None of them use this template. Given an experienced pvp, I can't kill them easily, tried and tested. Warrior mages chop him up in less than 1 min, seen that also many times.

But it is effective and AFFORDABLE.
I don't have to buy 100 million splintering or super duper antique jewel that cost more than a castle.

This is a very poor proposal and does not solve any exploit, balance the playing field whatever. 

Say what you can with your theory and maths that Parry is OP but this isn't happening out there in the fields.

Archery used to be OP I think, that everyone can see  Say archery boshido mystic. This is an awfully powerful combo if can manage to squeeze in.

Yes I said SQUEEZE. Everyone is squeezing up to 820 to 840 skills.

And you are nerfing a newbie, puritan parry mage. btw this is one of the few pure mage options 

Poison Mage
Alchemy Mage
Parry Mage
Scribe Mage

I didn't know a simple parry mage scares someone off, until now.

Devs have a problem with only listening to the most vocal people on the boards who generally don't know what they are talking about when it comes to pvp.  You can tell this based on all of the parry "solutions" they came up with.

I agree with you seth- if they go that route it certainly shouldn't just affect one template.  It's pretty crazy that chiv is still like that.  They should have just fixed chiv to begin with instead of letting dexers have the broken skill.

@Paithan Yes, and the majority of the good pvp players are probably not even reading this or even if they do, be bothered by this. Who cares about nerfing a newbie pvp template.

My 720 parry mage happen to be on Atlantic now.

Latency is 230 minimum. If parry is so great, I will stand still at Fel Yew gate and spam Heal. There will soon see corpses around my OP Parry mage as the last man standing. Dream on, this isn't going to happen. 

So many players just read updates, try to adapt and just fight.

Until one day when they discover everything is nerf and nothing's useful anymore, then they will soon forget about the game and leave. 

Seth said:

Who cares about nerfing a newbie pvp template.

My 720 parry mage happen to be on Atlantic now.

Latency is 230 minimum. If parry is so great, I will stand still at Fel Yew gate and spam Heal. There will soon see corpses around my OP Parry mage as the last man standing. Dream on, this isn't going to happen. 

@CovenantX ; I thought you wrote to nerf parry when it is specially paired with magery? 

So my template is this, a pure Parry Mage.
Magery, Med, EI, Resist, Wrestling, Parry.

There is no Chivalry as you said Parry with Magery only, so its 2/6 max.

You felt this is OP? Then prove it by showing how it can defeat every other template even those with 840 skills super hybrid.

Not maths and theory but show in real pvp video. And for everyone East to West to see. Maybe we all missed an exploit or OP combo.

Seth said:

@ CovenantX  I thought you wrote to nerf parry when it is specially paired with magery? 

So my template is this, a pure Parry Mage.
Magery, Med, EI, Resist, Wrestling, Parry.

There is no Chivalry as you said Parry with Magery only, so its 2/6 max.

You felt this is OP? Then prove it by showing how it can defeat every other template even those with 840 skills super hybrid.

Not maths and theory but show in real pvp video. And for everyone East to West to see. Maybe we all missed an exploit or OP combo.

1) No why should parry be nerfed for mages. 

2) Template outdated? Excuse me, ain't you trying to nerf an outdated template then?

Thanks for confirming, end of discussion.

@Bleak you can close this thread now. 

Paithan said:

Devs have a problem with only listening to the most vocal people on the boards who generally don't know what they are talking about when it comes to pvp.  You can tell this based on all of the parry "solutions" they came up with.

I agree with you seth- if they go that route it certainly shouldn't just affect one template.  It's pretty crazy that chiv is still like that.  They should have just fixed chiv to begin with instead of letting dexers have the broken skill.

it is the sad truth and it is why we get uncomplete solution in the last pvp update.Seth said:

@ Paithan Yes, and the majority of the good pvp players are probably not even reading this or even if they do, be bothered by this. Who cares about nerfing a newbie pvp template.

My 720 parry mage happen to be on Atlantic now.

Latency is 230 minimum. If parry is so great, I will stand still at Fel Yew gate and spam Heal. There will soon see corpses around my OP Parry mage as the last man standing. Dream on, this isn't going to happen. 

So many players just read updates, try to adapt and just fight.

Until one day when they discover everything is nerf and nothing's useful anymore, then they will soon forget about the game and leave. 

pure parry mage get already nerf and it was a bad one.its only bandaids a part of a probleme and fix nothing.parry need to be remove from restriction list and lower the chance they cant parry be 5 10% for all template

ezikel said:

Paithan said:

Devs have a problem with only listening to the most vocal people on the boards who generally don't know what they are talking about when it comes to pvp.  You can tell this based on all of the parry "solutions" they came up with.

I agree with you seth- if they go that route it certainly shouldn't just affect one template.  It's pretty crazy that chiv is still like that.  They should have just fixed chiv to begin with instead of letting dexers have the broken skill.

it is the sad truth and it is why we get uncomplete solution in the last pvp update.Seth said:

@ Paithan Yes, and the majority of the good pvp players are probably not even reading this or even if they do, be bothered by this. Who cares about nerfing a newbie pvp template.

My 720 parry mage happen to be on Atlantic now.

Latency is 230 minimum. If parry is so great, I will stand still at Fel Yew gate and spam Heal. There will soon see corpses around my OP Parry mage as the last man standing. Dream on, this isn't going to happen. 

So many players just read updates, try to adapt and just fight.

Until one day when they discover everything is nerf and nothing's useful anymore, then they will soon forget about the game and leave. 

pure parry mage get already nerf and it was a bad one.its only bandaids a part of a probleme and fix nothing.parry need to be remove from restriction list and lower the chance they cant parry be 5 10% for all template

I prefer the 3rd option where the characters with extra skill points are penalized.

Also I think 15-25% reduction is way too much. There would be almost no reason to take parry with that kind of penalty. It should be more like a 5-10% reduction. 

My suggestion would be to make the reduction be 10% of the extra skill points. So for someone with 100 extra skill points, they would suffer a 10% penalty. 50 extra skill points would give a 5% penalty.

Seth said:

1) No why should parry be nerfed for mages. 

2) Template outdated? Excuse me, ain't you trying to nerf an outdated template then?

Thanks for confirming, end of discussion.

@ Bleak you can close this thread now. 

This thread is beginning to get personal. Please keep personalities out of it. Reasoned, well thought out suggestions, not trashing each others' game play and templates.

@CovenantX,

Due to ultra high itemisation, consumables and a deliberate policy of making everything the same - Hybrids, getting rid of any template diversity (dressed up as creating template diversity, it's always the way), we have a situation for Pure Mages where;

Meditation = not required due to huge int, and mana regens available.

Resist Spells = not required due to orange petals, trapped boxes, and cleanse.

Inscription = not required due to the SDI and Casting Focus it provides being nothing compared to itemisation.

3 core skills, ie 340 skillpoints + say +100 from items = 440 redundant skillpoints on a Mage to allocate elsewhere.

This is why Pure Mages are dead, a. half their skills are redundant, b. they cannot compete with everything everyone else is adding.

Now what to add?

Answer = Weapon + Tactics... due to there being so many overpowered weapon specials. {Also, Bushido, Mystic, Chiv, maybe Necro, due to great additional Defensive abilities, or even more Offensive}.

Now if everyone is adding a weapon to their template, ie Dexxers and Hybrids, what is everyone going to need...?

Yep, Parry. Parry is the solution to the broken Pure Mages, and the drive towards Hybrids, Dexxers, Weapon Users and making everything the same.

It is Chicken and Egg - and the Chicken (Weapon usage) came first, not the Egg (Parry).

Fixing Parry, which is in fact just the innocent bystander in all of this, does absolutely nothing to the overall problem.

And PS.

My personal response to all of this, is to not follow the crowd, I've stayed as pure as possible.

I will not pick up a weapon, I would love if the Devs added a mages offhand globe (crystal ball style graphic) to our left hands, to replace the shield graphic. (Same stats as current shields, different graphic for mages).

I would love if the Devs boosted Inscription and Magic Resist, to make pure mages more attractive again in PvP and PvM, this would actually increase diversity by pulling away from the current conglomerate of dexxers and hybrids.

I use a pure scribe mage in pvm, and I switch scribe out for Spellweaving in pvp. It's the most pure, balanced spellcasting form I can find, and I do enjoy it tbh, spellweavers are a good balanced well rounded class.

Basically, I should not be able to compete (without parry), the only reason I can, is I'm just that far ahead of the rest of you in pvp. 🙂

But tbh, I've grown tired...

CovenantX said:

Seth said:

1) No why should parry be nerfed for mages. 

2) Template outdated? Excuse me, ain't you trying to nerf an outdated template then?

Thanks for confirming, end of discussion.

@ Bleak you can close this thread now. 

  1) Because Parry is broken when Mages use it against Dexers...  why else?

no one cares about parry-mages vs <insert variant>-mages.   mages are the only ones that can kill something with Parry consistently..... because...spells?      Doesn't that explain why there are so many more parry/evade-mages than anything in UO?  

Why do people refine fire resist to 75 when most dexers use cold or poison damage weapons & reducing DCI?    the obvious & logical answer is to provide more defense against mages.

  2) It's out-dated because of meditation = useless... Context, remember?  your template would be an easy win against any dexer ~90% of the time.  Against another mage it depends on your skill/timing interrupts vs theirs... A pvper would know that though.

Seth said:

Of all the most important thing in the world, you are going to nerf this template? Are you joking, is this template killing all the pvp in 1vs 1, arena and war all over the world. I must be a genius! But all my former pvp friends won't think so. None of them use this template. Given an experienced pvp, I can't kill them easily, tried and tested. Warrior mages chop him up in less than 1 min, seen that also many times.

But it is effective and AFFORDABLE.
I don't have to buy 100 million splintering or super duper antique jewel that cost more than a castle.

 by your own admission 'warrior mages' kill you in seconds.  I'm 100% sure it's because of their spell-play, because you have parry.  It's definitely not the weapon doing most of the damage.

  I'm just going out on a limb here and say it's safe to assume:

1) You have less than 80 dex on your "Parry-Mage".   

2) You aren't a pvper.

3) Both 1 & 2, as it would explain exactly why you try and hold the position you do.

 Anyone that thinks Parry is fine is oblivious to the state of pvp right now.

 You can reforge/imbue an effective parry-mage suit... with or without meditation as part of your template.  a Parry-mage (using Parry Mastery) can use shield-bash as part of a combo effectively reaching 'weapon damage' levels... with wrestling.  Which is what 90%+ of all mages were before publish 96, Parry was broken then, it's broken now.  (of course they were mostly using higher-end suits than reforged+imbued, but beyond a certain point, it matters not).

CovenantX said:

Seth said:

1) No why should parry be nerfed for mages. 

2) Template outdated? Excuse me, ain't you trying to nerf an outdated template then?

Thanks for confirming, end of discussion.

@ Bleak you can close this thread now. 

  1) Because Parry is broken when Mages use it against Dexers...  why else?

no one cares about parry-mages vs <insert variant>-mages.   mages are the only ones that can kill something with Parry consistently..... because...spells?      Doesn't that explain why there are so many more parry/evade-mages than anything in UO?  

Why do people refine fire resist to 75 when most dexers use cold or poison damage weapons & reducing DCI?    the obvious & logical answer is to provide more defense against mages.

  2) It's out-dated because of meditation = useless... Context, remember?  your template would be an easy win against any dexer ~90% of the time.  Against another mage it depends on your skill/timing interrupts vs theirs... A pvper would know that though.

Seth said:

Of all the most important thing in the world, you are going to nerf this template? Are you joking, is this template killing all the pvp in 1vs 1, arena and war all over the world. I must be a genius! But all my former pvp friends won't think so. None of them use this template. Given an experienced pvp, I can't kill them easily, tried and tested. Warrior mages chop him up in less than 1 min, seen that also many times.

But it is effective and AFFORDABLE.
I don't have to buy 100 million splintering or super duper antique jewel that cost more than a castle.

 by your own admission 'warrior mages' kill you in seconds.  I'm 100% sure it's because of their spell-play, because you have parry.  It's definitely not the weapon doing most of the damage.

  I'm just going out on a limb here and say it's safe to assume:

1) You have less than 80 dex on your "Parry-Mage".   

2) You aren't a pvper.

3) Both 1 & 2, as it would explain exactly why you try and hold the position you do.

 Anyone that thinks Parry is fine is oblivious to the state of pvp right now.

 You can reforge/imbue an effective parry-mage suit... with or without meditation as part of your template.  a Parry-mage (using Parry Mastery) can use shield-bash as part of a combo effectively reaching 'weapon damage' levels... with wrestling.  Which is what 90%+ of all mages were before publish 96, Parry was broken then, it's broken now.  (of course they were mostly using higher-end suits than reforged+imbued, but beyond a certain point, it matters not).

Wentoxxx said:

CovenantX said:

Seth said:

1) No why should parry be nerfed for mages. 

2) Template outdated? Excuse me, ain't you trying to nerf an outdated template then?

Thanks for confirming, end of discussion.

@ Bleak you can close this thread now. 

  1) Because Parry is broken when Mages use it against Dexers...  why else?

no one cares about parry-mages vs <insert variant>-mages.   mages are the only ones that can kill something with Parry consistently..... because...spells?      Doesn't that explain why there are so many more parry/evade-mages than anything in UO?  

Why do people refine fire resist to 75 when most dexers use cold or poison damage weapons & reducing DCI?    the obvious & logical answer is to provide more defense against mages.

  2) It's out-dated because of meditation = useless... Context, remember?  your template would be an easy win against any dexer ~90% of the time.  Against another mage it depends on your skill/timing interrupts vs theirs... A pvper would know that though.

Seth said:

Of all the most important thing in the world, you are going to nerf this template? Are you joking, is this template killing all the pvp in 1vs 1, arena and war all over the world. I must be a genius! But all my former pvp friends won't think so. None of them use this template. Given an experienced pvp, I can't kill them easily, tried and tested. Warrior mages chop him up in less than 1 min, seen that also many times.

But it is effective and AFFORDABLE.
I don't have to buy 100 million splintering or super duper antique jewel that cost more than a castle.

 by your own admission 'warrior mages' kill you in seconds.  I'm 100% sure it's because of their spell-play, because you have parry.  It's definitely not the weapon doing most of the damage.

  I'm just going out on a limb here and say it's safe to assume:

1) You have less than 80 dex on your "Parry-Mage".   

2) You aren't a pvper.

3) Both 1 & 2, as it would explain exactly why you try and hold the position you do.

 Anyone that thinks Parry is fine is oblivious to the state of pvp right now.

 You can reforge/imbue an effective parry-mage suit... with or without meditation as part of your template.  a Parry-mage (using Parry Mastery) can use shield-bash as part of a combo effectively reaching 'weapon damage' levels... with wrestling.  Which is what 90%+ of all mages were before publish 96, Parry was broken then, it's broken now.  (of course they were mostly using higher-end suits than reforged+imbued, but beyond a certain point, it matters not).

Absolutely agreed!!!

80%+ mages in pvp have parry. Because its a trump vs any dexxer. Just 1 skill bring such huge advantage agains dexxer. As CovenantX said meditation is not more needed thank to new equip and that increase again mage potential. I cant believe that any parry mage who know how to use his build will ever lose to any dexxer, this is absolutely impossible, the only reason to loose is    

- extremely bad ping, huge laag etc.

- a mage got a call of a friend in rl and let his char afk

- a mage has right skills, but cant use it properly

Someone say here pure pary mage arent so strong as crossed parry mages like necro parry mages or myst parry mages and that is not true. Pure parry mage dont have such burst as both crossed parry mages, but they have still extremely huge damage if they know how to do it. As well they can use disarm every time and heal themself .

Letz see what will happen if  nerf option 1 will come online.

Parry and 70+ magery/myst/necro/sw the parry chance is getting dropped to 15% by 120 parry.

Some parry mages will keep parry build, but finally have to learn and master their build to stay alive and to kill other. Some parry mages change their build to necro/myst/alchy/scribe/SW mages without parry. FInally mage will become mage and not a defensive fortress. They lose defence, but gain more offence.

In case of nerf option 2.

Parry and magery/myst/necro/sw 70+ will get fc/fcr 1/4 cap. Here I would suggest to add bushido as well, to nerf bush parry mages.

In that case parry mage will keep their huge defence potential agains dexxer. They will be still hard to kill by dexxer, but they will be more easy defeated by any other non parry mages. Also in that case we'll get some kind stone-paper-scissors system. Dexxer can kill non parry mages, non parry mage will kill parry mages and parry mages will kill dexxer, but need as I said to master their build.

I personally prefer the second option, because it will hit bush mages as well as parry mages and have some kind stone-paper-scissors system.

Also I would bring some possibility to increase casting focus for mage and generally increase their cap to 20. Mage should be hit and get damage, but lesser disturbed by casting.

Paithan said:

Although I think both of these changes are terrible-  Why did you not include the broken 4/6 chiv on the list of spellcasters?  It is the most broken spellcaster in game. If you are going to go through with either of these awful ideas- be sure to add it to ALL casters.  Thanks.


How much is parry reduced if you have refinements/over 70 in scenario A?


What is your fc capped at in scenario B? 


It feels like you guys have not thought this through as per usual.


Also- if you are going to reduce something for a mage for having refinements- what gets reduced on a pure dexer?  Kinda seems weird that one temp can have it with no disadvantage and another can't.

Agree. It’s really incredible how the dev team has managed to not think this through and somehow overthink it at the same time. 

All these proposed solutions are WAY too complicated for the average player to grasp and have way too many exceptions to the rules, thus increasing the gulf between pro-PvPers and everyone else. 

You were on the right track with the recent change to 90. Keep it simple stupids.  Parry is for dexxers, make it require some more dex! 90 is ridiculously low, it should be 120 to be fully effective.  Try something simple first.

Yeah I have played this game for 20 years and it’s getting too complicated for me, think that about sums this game up.

Complete lack of foresight by devs when they slowly introduce small changes over time that complicate things, let us talk about pure/non pure templates for pvp, where in the game does it display your max pvp spell damage or faster casting? I’ll tell you where, nowhere, on any client. 

Yes I agree. It is getting overly complicated.

Although I picked the 3rd option, it would be even better to just not nerf parry in the first place. A parry nerf isn't even needed. Reading thru the comments, i am not the only one who thinks this way.

Im not a fan of the combat changes from the last patch, and these proposed changes as well.  Things were quite balanced, but now it is getting weird with all these complicated rules.

Seth said:

Excuse me, I have 80+ dex, and that is the reason my template have very little plus skills because of focusing on adding more dex instead of plus skills.

Yes warrior mages kill my character in seconds. I am trying to say that there are much more powerful templates to nerf than the pure mage, dexxer templates.

Your discussion keep centering around parry mage versus dexxer? This concludes that you have very little experience in pvp. Or is this what Atlantic has to offer? What is the dexxer template? Does it have bushido? I tried against a sampire and it wasn't an easy kill either because he has evasion and confidence. Nothing wrong, and my parry does not guarantee that its safe. I lost 2 rounds and won 1 round. So why nerf parry mage?

Optimus said:

5% decrease in parry cap, with a large reduction in evasion + increase in cool down.

This would be good, but I guess it's too simple for the devs. Not enough rules and complications for the devs to do something like this

@CovenantX

• Resist fits perfectly (in the list of core redundant skills), many pvp templates drop resist. It's one of the big issues, why I think it should be buffed to make sure templates (both mage and dexxer) require it, or trapped boxes fixed maybe.

• Dismount is the most unfun part of pvp, it just kills the vibe. It is certainly overpowered. Running is just an essential part of current pvp, used by all classes. Dismount prevents running. Of course, I personally would prefer everyone was on foot chained to the same area. 🙂 But nah, I also like using different terrains.

• But I do agree with you - the initial fix does not solve any issues. (By the way, I still don't actually get your exact template issue? - Mage parry chiv?). If the Devs nerf Parry, players will still all use Parry, nothing at all will change, because Parry is a requirement in the current state of pvp. The pvp patch where Bleak wanted to nerf Parry last time (removing it from focussed list of skills and therefore reducing SDI), myself and my GM, both stood on parry mages at Test Centre Yew Moongate, sat there and said to him, this will not change a thing, it will not reduce parry usage, and somehow, god knows how, it even boosted parry usage. (Because all the Hybrids that he allowed to be created by the tactics change went weapon usage, meaning more parry was needed {I even forecast that at the time as well}). I say the same again.

• I do think the issue is about triple skills going together, with Parry included- but I would be interested in which ones you think it is exactly, because I don't seem to have an issue with them. For me, the second anyone takes up Parry, they've wasted a ton of skill-points that allow me as one of the very rare pure mages to take advantage of. But I get that everyone needs Parry, because Dexxers rip them apart in seconds (or Dismount them - to be ganked on foot, thus altering the entire course of a team battle in a very unfair way).

• "You could be a Nerve-strike mage (without Parry) it's not the problem. " - It is for me. It's just another weapon user, another wannabee dexxer, and ironically for you, another template promoting the usage of Parry as a defence mechanism, the bit you don't see, the reverse side to that coin.
  

 Ok crazed mages, time to serious up. 

@Bleak and the dev team are gonna pitch this change to the stakeholders at some scrum meeting and the first question from the producers is gonna be:

#1 “What is the problem we are fixing and how much dev-time is it going to eat up?” 

* Insert the best answer you can give. Keep in mind the people you’re explaining this to don’t play the game and have very little idea of what you’re talking very about!!! KEEP IT SIMPLE. *

#2 “What is the easiest solution to this problem that requires the least amount of dev-time and is the easiest to test/implement/explain?”

*** My answer: increase the dex needed to 120 ***

If your answer is harder to explain than that, well good luck to you, math-nerd. But the rest of the drooling idiots and I need something we can understand. I’m not saying your solution isn’t good, hell it might be better! But we need something we can explain in simple terms to non-experts.

The stakeholders have tons of stuff they want to use dev-time on, so you need to convince them that this change is more important and more time critical than whatever awful new expansion they are currently coding. (My guess is Ultima finally goes to outer space and we colonize the UO moon.)

Take out ALL past "FIXES" and let the players decide what they want to play.  Quit trying to "FIX" our sandbox

LordSolor, fair enough post, I've tried to take you up on it, and failed tbh… the problem is too big.

{I don't think your solution can work, because it pretty much only gives Parry skill to the warriors, dexxers and weapon users. They then get the benefit of all the overpowered weapons, as well as the only defence - I play a non parry mage, and can tell you, you get ripped to shreds so fast sometimes, you cannot even blink}.

I think parry is the back-end of the issue, I think the front end needs fixing.

I think the front end, is the dominance of weapon users, and that templates need to be able to play without parry.

I'd actually be interested to see what else other players think is the problem, before trying to pull this together.

I could add other issues - the impossibility to cure lethal poison from dexxer templates.

Or, Deathstrike being used on the run by mounted dexxer, non ninja style templates.

Trapped Boxes negating paralyse spell.

Too much Dismount being used by dexxers, not available to mages.

Notice 3 of the main issues up there, require parry to mitigate (deathstrike, dismount, lethal poison hit). I don't even mention splinter, or all the other specials I have no issues with.

I do believe PvP should have a move, and counter move ability, at the start, we used to have this, mages had the ability to counter move. We cannot counter move dismount, we cannot cure lethal poison without 20 greater cure potions (rarely get time for an arch cure spell, especially with bleed, splinter, and many other effects being piled on top of you), our paralyse is broken far too easily, meaning we have almost no way to slow a dexxer, while they have every method under the sun of stopping mages. Only Cleanse can "cure" a mortal - again, the useful spells, have been spread out over the different mage-schools, which also does not help. Dexxers can access ALL weapon specials by changing weapons, Mages cannot access all spell types, useful ones are locked away in small specialist mageclasses.

And I don't have a simple solution, I have a range of things to think about;

• A huge amount of this has been caused by itemisation, the ability for classes to have full access to all stats and skills to the max, allowing the ones that can use them all effectively to benefit. Mages cannot - they don't use Dex. Hybrids can, they cast spells, they use weapons, and Dexxers can - they use weapons, and use non stop specials with their huge mana pools. Somehow dealing with too many bonuses from Itemisation could help, reviewing the caps, and it's almost a case of saying, if you have this skill cap in use, you can't have this - it's now become the combination of stuff that is an issue - not just as simple as "parry is broken it needs a fix".

• I think - bring back pure style mages, the more of these there are, the less weapon users, the less requirement for parry in the first place. Look at the whole myriad of ways mages have been hit, what has decimated them, turned the game into this dexxer/hybrid mess, where parry is so dominant. Buff Inscription, Meditation, Magic Resist for mages, and Magic Resist, Healing for dexxers (to promote pure dexxers), pull the classes apart a bit more.

Here is the simplest solution -done once and for all - remove all handicaps in pvp setup vs pve, let the players use any and all builds, items, masteries. To compensate the fragile human form since everything in the game oriented towards fighting big bosses and mean monsters, give players 1k of life (or something like that) when fighting in pvp. Thats it, nothing else, never have to balance this issuer again. I think it is ridiculous to punish players for using toys that they were given to begin with - train skill to 120, use items with +skill points, etc.  Let those legendary skills, super uber items, various templates shine to the fullest

LordSolor said:

 Ok crazed mages, time to serious up. 

@ Bleak and the dev team are gonna pitch this change to the stakeholders at some scrum meeting and the first question from the producers is gonna be:

#1 “What is the problem we are fixing and how much dev-time is it going to eat up?” 

* Insert the best answer you can give. Keep in mind the people you’re explaining this to don’t play the game and have very little idea of what you’re talking very about!!! KEEP IT SIMPLE. *

#2 “What is the easiest solution to this problem that requires the least amount of dev-time and is the easiest to test/implement/explain?”

*** My answer: increase the dex needed to 120 ***

If your answer is harder to explain than that, well good luck to you, math-nerd. But the rest of the drooling idiots and I need something we can understand. I’m not saying your solution isn’t good, hell it might be better! But we need something we can explain in simple terms to non-experts.

The stakeholders have tons of stuff they want to use dev-time on, so you need to convince them that this change is more important and more time critical than whatever awful new expansion they are currently coding. (My guess is Ultima finally goes to outer space and we colonize the UO moon.)

cobb said:

Yes I agree. It is getting overly complicated.

Although I picked the 3rd option, it would be even better to just not nerf parry in the first place. A parry nerf isn't even needed. Reading thru the comments, i am not the only one who thinks this way.

Im not a fan of the combat changes from the last patch, and these proposed changes as well.  Things were quite balanced, but now it is getting weird with all these complicated rules.

Agreed, keep it simple, KISS.

Pure dexxer's toasted by pure parry mage, whine.
So Nerf Parry Mages. 

So next:

Pure mages (except Parry) minced by Dexxers, I shall whine even harder!

Nerf all Dexxer Special Moves!

When is this ever going to end!?

I wouldn’t vote for any of those ideas.

refinement problem?  Nerf refinements.

hybrid problem?  Nerf jewelry overcapping 720 skills.

Nerfing casting cap because someone has parry?  Terrible idea.

Paithan said:

CovenantX said:

   Mages typically do have much higher offense & defense than dexers do.

  4/6 chivalry is the only thing that exceeds the recovery (healing) over any other template, but they lack the offense to kill anyone.  

 

That being said, I'm glad they're going the skill vs skill route to adjust parry, I don't see a reason to add all the casting skills to it though, Chivalry is debatable...  but Necro, Mysticism, or Spellweaving?   Those skills aren't really useful as standalone skills, they basically need to be combined with magery for them to be viable.

They support Magery very well (and all of those skills would be paired with Magery (maybe Chivalry) anyway) so just adding Magery to the list reducing parry would cover everything that's better than it should be without unnecessarily dragging unused templates down with it.

Side note:  some people posting here are against this because it would affect their 'sampire' (pvm) templates. (Necromancy &/Chivalry + parry) etc etc.

Parry just allows mages to get so many more spells off, regardless if the spell is offensive or defensive It's strong enough to where dexers might as well not even log in unless they have a group to gank with...  if a parry-mage plays defensive against any type of dexer, they'll never die.

Mages can compete with anything they want regardless if Parry is part of their template or not, one vs one or otherwise.

I also think it's pretty funny that you guys claim "evasion" is overpowered though.

I mean, the only thing that's changed with evasion came with global loot.....  that would be Mages can now use it with little to no sacrifice same deal with parry.

if parry chances are reduced w/Magery+Parry it should carry over to Evasion chances as a result of it.   (Magery & Chivalry perhaps? probably for the best)

We'll have to see what other options come about,  I'm not really a fan of the Fc/Fcr penalty  But, I will definitely go with it if that's the only option for a reasonable balance between mages & dexers in pvp.  Parry has been broken long enough.

the Refinement thing doesn't really make sense, it should be skill-only imo, but if it is based on refinements, there has to be away to remove refinements from Armor added Which there should be anyway.

Parry mages do not have more offense and defense then dexers. They have way less DPS and both their offense and defense can be interrupted.  If they are going to put something ridiculous in with casting classes- it should affect ALL classes.  Why does a dexer get to use parry and necro/chiv/etc with no punishment but a mage cant? 

 Makes no sense.  No "pure" skills are useful anymore as stand alone skills.  

This game is about balance.  You can have high offensive chars that can kill fast but have a lot of limitations/ you can have high defensive chars that are impossible to kill but cant kill anyone/ and you can have hybrid temps that have a mix of both.


Dexers do not have it rough with splintering wep.  They hit parry mages a lot and only need to string together a good 4 or so hits with splinter to kill someone.  The only class that I think has the short end of the stick right now is archers.


I would love to see you go up against good dexers one v one without parry. You would get eaten alive.

Evasion is overpowered.  That is why literally everyone uses it when group fighting.  The 12 second cool down on 8 seconds of evading 60% of spells?  That is a joke.


The only thing I can agree with you on is the refinements.

This.

Oreogl said:

I wouldn’t vote for any of those ideas.

refinement problem?  Nerf refinements.

hybrid problem?  Nerf jewelry overcapping 720 skills.

Nerfing casting cap because someone has parry?  Terrible idea.

Yep, agreed, I think people don't really get the issue here, or the solution.

I actually logged in for the first time in a month last night, quite a few of my guild were on, my GM told me to get to Despise, and we did a really cool Baracoon. We got scouted, fine, 1 orange showed up, then a team showed up, and we had a cracker of a fight. We were basically so happy to have a team fight for the first time in ages, our team went all running man. We had a great fight, but lost, our tactics were bad because we just wanted to fight and run so much - had we taken and held the Island, we could have won, and kept the boss.

But during this, I chatted to my GM a bit, and he came up with a few ideas.

• If it's mage/parry/bushido that is the issue, nerf the evasion when used in this combination.
• Weapon users just basically hit too much, and have too many specials - nerf hit chance, will indirectly fix parry.
• Hybrids using weapons, should have their hit chance reduced, and/or their SDI reduced when using spells - they basically can do too much and have full effects.
• Raise the DCI cap back up for mages without parry.
• Put a skillcap on +skill jewellery.
• Analyse skills like Magery, Spellweaving, Chivalry, Bushido, Necro, Ninja, Parry, Mystic, don't let them have the full effect of certain spells at a low level of skillpoints, it allows templates to get full powerful effects in some cases, for only 60 skillpoints invested in a skill.

These are just ideas, but they give a better view of some of the issues maybe.

It's all just basic Math, Decreasing the max parry chance to 30% isn't going to be enough. See spreadsheet below. Honestly if you are a human parry mage your parry chance is probably already 30% because of the JOAT Bushido and most players don't even notice. 

25% When factored with hit Lower defense would be a good starting point, but 20% max parry chance for the skill combinations I mentioned before would put things more in line to where Hit lower defense more or less negates parry chance against those templates. (This would put us back to what things were like when imbuing first came out but DCI could be overcapped) 

Shield with Open Hand: 20% Max Parry Chance (Pots or Parry, your choice) 
Magery or Myst >= 60 Or Chivalry Mastery on. 20% Max Parry Chance with 1 handed weapon (Negates bushido shift) 

Leave the skill requirement to reach 20% Parry chance the same. The goal is more template diversity not less. This means you aren't just Nerfing parry mages, you are also freeing up 60 Skill points. This also means that parry mages can still achieve max Parry chance, but only if they sacrifice potions the same way two handed warriors and shield users do. 

JoaT doesn’t calc bushido.

Id love to say that this has a simple solution but its not gonna be simple.  the massive global loot change a few years back did too much damage to both mages and archer/thrower setups.   I can say that lowering max parry chance to 20% when combined with casting schools is a good way to fix this but I think the speed of the easy to make 210+ stam suits would just rise up and take over pvp again.  You could put in a stam cap to negate that  or slow wep speeds of bows, but how could you do that without affecting the pvm side.  I also think bandage cap should be 6 secs and not 4 but im sure everyone would lose their minds over that too.   We certainly cant just go back and delete global loot items without massive crying and quitting, I personally wouldn't care if it was all deleted but people would be upset.  So how do you solve these issues?   All I can say is good luck in your attempts.

In the first year that global loot came out it wasn't that easy, but since it was massively script farmed through Putrifier and other ML monsters before they fixed it, it became very common to have these high stat/skill suits.   I can make either of those suits in less then a day right now and not spend more then like 100-150m.   

I think parry just needs to come down a bit when combined with casting schools then see how that goes for a patch and adjust more if necessary.  

The_Higgs_1 said:

In the first year that global loot came out it wasn't that easy, but since it was massively script farmed through Putrifier and other ML monsters before they fixed it, it became very common to have these high stat/skill suits.   I can make either of those suits in less then a day right now and not spend more then like 100-150m.   

I think parry just needs to come down a bit when combined with casting schools then see how that goes for a patch and adjust more if necessary.  

I have 2 legendary imbuer myself so I am not referring to something you can make easily in the own backyard.

Unless u know of an exploit to farm Legendary gears with specific combinations.

Sure parry can come down a bit for parry mages, so it's less taxing for the rare, pure pvp Dexxers.

So should all the HCI, SSI and Special Moves that Dexxers can use. Splintering with bleeding, force walking, mortal strikes, etc.

Can we have mages casting spell while the horse is moving? Why not? Dexers and archers can still fight with their weapons while moving.

I would have much rather seen a "High Seas 2.0 discussion" brought up before yet another unnecessary potential PvP change, I know, my comment brought nothing to this discussion, this will be my only one.

Seth said:

Can we have mages casting spell while the horse is moving? Why not? Dexers and archers can still fight with their weapons while moving.

Dexxers have to be point blank. 

Ranged Damage Dealers have to use Mana for only Base hits that are now 100% Physical. IF they have hit spell other than velocity it lags them when it goes off. 

Both still have RNG to hit their targets. Refer to spreadsheet I posted earlier. 

The only counter to mages being able to cast on the run would be for them to make spells a % Chance to land and then we open up a whole other can of worms. Could you imagine only haveing a 1% Chance to land 4 spells in a row? The more RNG added to pvp, the worse it becomes. 

I would be curious to see a test center with that rule put on it though for fun.

Mervyn said:

JoaT doesn’t calc bushido.

I would like for them to add this to the Wiki for Joat and parrying if it is true. The only references i've seen is players talking about old five on fridays, but no one who could link to it, And someone quoting a book in game.

I Understand it's an old game, but you shouldn't have to DIG through google to find a five on friday from 14 years ago or have played the game back in the samurai empire to learn that JOAT doesn't effect bushido parry chance. 

And actually as I look at the new character creation screen, I'm starting to understand why UO hasn't really attracted a new player base in the last 10 years. Starting a new thread for that rant. 

King_Greg said:

Mervyn said:

JoaT doesn’t calc bushido.

I would like for them to add this to the Wiki for Joat and parrying if it is true. The only references i've seen is players talking about old five on fridays, but no one who could link to it, And someone quoting a book in game.

I have done some research into this, and have found a reference to it in the UOHerald Archive Bushido page.  I can not find any reference in publishes to a change relating to it, I am working on the assumption that Mervyn's information is correct and will update the description on the Bushido page accordingly.

Thank you thank you. 

Have they decided which terrible idea they are going with that will make this dexer online?

Paithan said:

Have they decided which terrible idea they are going with that will make this dexer online?

It pretty much already is dexxer online.

I've been pvping pretty solidly over Xmas, for up to 12 hours a day the last few days, actually had a good time - so feel in a very good place to comment right now.

This idea cannot really proceed as it is.

If they do anything to nerf parry mages, they really have to buff non parry mage defence by quite a lot.

I personally don't mind parry being nerfed in itself, if they want to redress the fact that too many players use parry, but, it's certainly being used for a reason.

My personal pet hate, I'm going to say it again, way too much dismount going on (half the reason everyone has parry is the relationship between topics), whilst I've had a really good few days, and there is a lot of balance in a way, the dismounting is what is ruining the flow. It's got to be the crutch everyone uses, the must have. You cannot have a sensible fight. I get why the dismount is there, it's almost the only way players can stop other players, there is so much healing and running involved, but, this volume of dismount certainly isn't the way. Stealthers/archers on foot using dismount, fair enough, mounted dexxers using it whilst running and using lightning fast macro's - not really cool, they take no disadvantage using it, and turn the tide of battles way too unfairly - OR give dismount to mages as a spell (whilst on foot), and see how the dexxers feel then at this one sided skill being used on them.

The sad part is, The Main reason mages will run Parry is for the fact they have no real way to put distance between themselves and a dexxer. Paralyze and Sleep are spells they use for that purpose. Now if a warrior has Resist and it's ineffective that's great! that means the warrior actually dedicated skill points to handle that! However trapped boxes are another story.

A Mage should NOT want to be up close and personal with a warrior. They honestly shouldn't have to. Getting close to a mage should be a difficult thing but rewarding once you do. I LIKE the idea of penalizing a mage to have parry, But I think in order for that to be fair then mages need to have some way of being equal to the Dexxer templates they are going to face. Do not just nerf a template/skill without having a plan to make the caster balanced with the dexxer.

I for one enjoy playing a caster class, But in UO it's gotten to the point where I end up not being able to keep up with Dexxers. I don't even mean just in PvP either. Gathering up Spell Damage gear is tedious and honestly even with every artifact available(which creates a rather hideous looking outfit I must add) I am still not able to keep up with a Dexxer's damage.

PvP.. I mean.... I am okay as long as no one hits me in the face.

So yeah, A mage with a shield looks pretty stupid, But it's just what it's come to when dealing with templates that maul your face and prevent you getting out of the face mauling by clicking a box.

@Bleak Please Please Plleeeeaaaaseee If we are going to do this change, Then let's have a plan for balancing Dexxers and Casters so one isn't just overpowering the other.

Cookie said:

I personally don't mind parry being nerfed in itself, if they want to redress the fact that too many players use parry, but, it's certainly being used for a reason.

Yeah nerfing something just because lot of people are using it is a really bad idea. Just because lot of people use it does not mean it is overpowered.

Why not nerf Magic Resist as well then? Lot of pvp characters have it. Must mean it is overpowered as well ..... 

Once again, this thread is dedicated to discussing 'basic' pvp templates. I do have the so called old pure mage with parry and 80 Dex template.

It is probably effective against another Pure dexxer. But frankly speaking, who on earth uses Pure pvp template for 1v1, mass war, or arena? 

If your objective is to make Pure Dexxer viable again, there are many other templates that will toast the pure warrior without parry. 

For one, the pure Dexxer is not popular as well not because of parry mage alone.

And parry mage isn't the king because there are any other templates that kill it. 

At the very least, it is a viable template for me because it protects my template from the "Dexxer" part of the Dexxer/Archer Hybrids with Mage/Ninja/ Bushido/Mystic/Necro. Every experienced pvp uses some hybrids.

If mages don't need shields, then warriors don't need spells. Please nerf all the other hybrids as well....

...and kill UO finally and forever!

If your PVM dexxer gets strucked down by a Parry Mage, it probably isn't meant for PVP, like a Sampire. Please upgrade to a hybrid warrior mage.

The parry mage is just one of such PVP templates that is defensive. In war, my team mate makes me do utility like healing, cast invisible, bless and run away or everyone targets me. 

By the way, when I just started out with the basic Parry Mage, my friend can kill it with his sampire because of evasion and bokuto nerve strike. 

It is a beginners template, not useful for pvm but good defense against weapons in pvp. Against other hybrids, it was toasted many times. 

All you have to do is make shields disarmable.

You guys have all these ideas and theyreally all great. But I think that is the simplest fix by far.

amit said:

All you have to do is make shields disarmable.

You guys have all these ideas and theyreally all great. But I think that is the simplest fix by far.

There have been really terrible ideas in this thread. Devs don’t understand how OP dexters are if you don’t have parry.

Its like I said, the global loot change has lead to all these issues in todays pvp.  Question is how do you fix that?  I don't think there is a way without causing a lot of people to either quit or get upset.  Id like to see either stat caps or skill point caps.  But how do you put something like that in without affecting the pvm side of the game, base it on being flagged in combat or just in felucca?  Pvp may just be too far gone to even attempt to fix it without a major overhaul, which would cause more people to be upset.  There is a chance if they take a hard route to fix it, but they would have to endure losing people in order to eventually gain people in the long run.  In its current state pvp is incredibly boring and just stupid, there really isn't any skill in it anymore.   Refined resists, massive consumables, lots of running, evasion spam, and zerg ganking.  At the very minimum, id remove refinements from pvp period.  Lower parry chance by like 5-10% for a patch and see how it goes.  Add some kind of penalty for combining bushido with chiv and magery, casting or long cooldown on evasion.  Let it run for a patch and adjust if necessary on next patch.  If I was a dev, I would grow a set and delete the global loot upgrade including all items already farmed.  Only way back to any sense of normalcy in the game, but that's me.

If parry is 35% now, lower it to 25%(For PvP).... BUMMM So easy to balance stuff with out breaking the game.

I don't combat pvp, (as in not intentionally as the primary aspect that I enjoy of this game, I get attacked and do my evasives or die lol), but I do enjoy the pvm and crafting aspects of this game enormously. I even roll with the changes even though I'm quite behind the times in what is current or "most effective" even in PVM. But I do have the suggestion that it is thoroughly tested and please try to keep these changes away from the PVM aspects of this game. In terms of super bosses, it's hard to find parties on some shards so we solo/duo (at most most of the time) what is "current" and without the way things work as they are I can forsee much frustration and probably just avoiding that as content I log in and enjoy.

 I am seeing little spurts of more players on the "Dead" shards I play on (non-atlantic) so I'm hopeful some of the things I've done on the ones I do play on have positive impact on the community or stir interest in people that just sit on like 5-6 active accounts so they don't lose things they hoarded over the decades. I'm in the process of leveling 2nd account for my main account to have a bro at all times when doing "high end" content. I'd despise seeing a poorly implemented "update" destroy many hours of work I'm investing just to have some fun. I try to positively support this game everywhere I go when I'm talking to people that are disenfranchised with other more modern MMO's, and I genuinely believe that there are things in UO that keep it relevant or possibly relevant for years to come. Housing and the plethora of "trammie/ laid back" content is enough to keep older less intense attitude players (intense attitude not something I'm trying to say is bad at all mind you) plopping along for who knows how long. I enjoy Ultima Online and many of its features immensely. Please try to do a better job of forseeing the consequences of changing mechanics so that it doesn't cause other segments of the game to leave. I'm not threatening to leave if something changes, but I will say some of the things that change do aggravate and annoy me, and other times I literally have to be told or know something changed to even notice it.
 Thanks for your time.

Paithan said:

amit said:

All you have to do is make shields disarmable.

You guys have all these ideas and theyreally all great. But I think that is the simplest fix by far.

There have been really terrible ideas in this thread. Devs don’t understand how OP dexters are if you don’t have parry.

Agreed, that is why I asked for tourney worldwide and see the templates that come forth to battle. All these theories... I used to doing these thinking until I see the really good fights. Then all these doesn't matter anymore. 

Sometimes in a war everything happens so fast we dont even know how one dies. Try to study YouTube UO mass war and see if you can catch up and understand how each toons in there die from a fight. How many times do you need to rewind and replay?

They already agreed, originally they wanted to nerf the Parry + Pure Mage template. But they agreed this is already an outdated template. It is effective against dexxers, probably some old school pvper as well which is not popular.

Try the pure dexxer against other warrior mage template (non parry mage) and see how they die.

Just because one's pvp skill and experience is poor and lose against an old school pure parry mage and want to nerf it, is laughable. 

Paithan said:

amit said:

All you have to do is make shields disarmable.

You guys have all these ideas and theyreally all great. But I think that is the simplest fix by far.

There have been really terrible ideas in this thread. Devs don’t understand how OP dexters are if you don’t have parry.

I was trying to be nice 🙂

OoOOh  Those "dex-ters" are sooooo scary man.   LOL

Pure dexxers are also outdated,  even PVM like Sampire uses some other magic schools.

If they nerf the parry, it will only benefit pure dexxers which virtually no one would use.

The really powerful one is the dexxer-mage or other magic schools with 840 skills. 

Parry mage is only a basic defensive, those dexxer magic hybrids are the real champion and expensive to fit one up. 

I just can't believe the options on the table in regards to parry. It's like you guys have never pvped before. The problem with the parry skill is you don't have to sacrifice anything to have it anymore. Is it possible you still guys don't realize this?

With 80 Skill points on each ring and bracelet (A fact that boggles my mind) you guys just need to do 1 of 2 things either:

A) Lower the effectiveness of the Parry skill across the board. (Then perhaps a 1v1 won't last 1 hour)

If you insist to make parry less useful for caster types you MUST also add Chiv to this list. 4/6 Chiv is silly enough . . . why allow them to have that much defense? To annoy your players?

Paithan said:

There have been really terrible ideas in this thread. Devs don’t understand how OP dexters are if you don’t have parry.

I feel like this whole conversation has been overcomplicated. After reading through all of the posts up to this point I think it's fairly simple. Splintering caused mages to NEED parry to survive, let alone compete. Ever since the dawn of this game "better" pvpers played mages and "worse" ones played dexxers. When really good players play dexxers parry doesn't seem to be as big of an issue, if any. If you nerf parry for mages even the best mages will probably struggle even vs the crappiest dexxers. This isn't complicated. Parry isn't strictly overpowered itself. So many mages build templates around parry because it's a necessity.

Whatever though. This game has been beat into submission. May as well proceed with silly changes like this and kill it off for good.

Kel said:

Parry isn't strictly overpowered itself. So many mages build templates around parry because it's a necessity.

That is stated perfectly imo.

Paithan said:

Kel said:

Parry isn't strictly overpowered itself. So many mages build templates around parry because it's a necessity.

That is stated perfectly imo.

Aye, they should just leave this alone for good. You just need a mix of magics and weapon to kill in pvp. You can't kill a Parry Mage, or ANY experienced pvper template with just handheld dexxer weapon Alone. Even if I dont parry I can still run, evade, try touch me Dexxer. 

And as I have said before, it's different fighting in the wild va inside a 7x7 house.

I hope the proposition can understand why the strong opposition. Parry is already a focus spec, don't have to make it totally useless and ineffective.

Literally the only templates being played are either evasion temps or temps with people carrying a shield.  The only common denominator is parry, it has to be the issue in the current awful meta.  Simple logic is all it takes to determine this.  Unless they put in a lowered skill total hard-cap, parry has to be adjusted down.

The_Higgs_1 said:

Literally the only templates being played are either evasion temps or temps with people carrying a shield.  The only common denominator is parry, it has to be the issue in the current awful meta.  Simple logic is all it takes to determine this.  Unless they put in a lowered skill total hard-cap, parry has to be adjusted down.

I don't see anything wrong with defensive skills. Parry requires to hit, evasion is against All hitting and spells or archery. If anything, evasion is more powerful than Parry.

Why not talk a out nerfing evasion first. For this, Dev please post in all languages and make sure all the pvper know. See their response.

So if they NERF ParryMages what will become the new OP PvPer

Seth said:

The_Higgs_1 said:

Literally the only templates being played are either evasion temps or temps with people carrying a shield.  The only common denominator is parry, it has to be the issue in the current awful meta.  Simple logic is all it takes to determine this.  Unless they put in a lowered skill total hard-cap, parry has to be adjusted down.

I don't see anything wrong with defensive skills. Parry requires to hit, evasion is against All hitting and spells or archery. If anything, evasion is more powerful than Parry.

Why not talk a out nerfing evasion first. For this, Dev please post in all languages and make sure all the pvper know. See their response.

Umm without parry you cant evade!  So how is evasion more OP again?  If parry is fixed right it will lower peoples chance to evade.  Man im tired of being right

The_Higgs_1 said:

Seth said:

The_Higgs_1 said:

Literally the only templates being played are either evasion temps or temps with people carrying a shield.  The only common denominator is parry, it has to be the issue in the current awful meta.  Simple logic is all it takes to determine this.  Unless they put in a lowered skill total hard-cap, parry has to be adjusted down.

I don't see anything wrong with defensive skills. Parry requires to hit, evasion is against All hitting and spells or archery. If anything, evasion is more powerful than Parry.

Why not talk a out nerfing evasion first. For this, Dev please post in all languages and make sure all the pvper know. See their response.

Umm without parry you cant evade!  So how is evasion more OP again?  If parry is fixed right it will lower peoples chance to evade.  Man im tired of being right

I am not sure, it did not occur to me parry skill is related to evasion. From Uo guide chance to block is based on bushido, tactics and anatomy only. This is the reason why my parry is 60 for my sampire but my evasion timing can be max up to 8 secs. 

Not sure if i missed anything.

Bilbo said:

So if they NERF ParryMages what will become the new OP PvPer

Seth said:

I am not sure, it did not occur to me parry skill is related to evasion. From Uo guide chance to block is based on bushido, tactics and anatomy only. This is the reason why my parry is 60 for my sampire but my evasion timing can be max up to 8 secs. 

Not sure if i missed anything.

Paithan said:

Evasion is overpowered.  That is why literally everyone uses it when group fighting.  The 12 second cool down on 8 seconds of evading 60% of spells?  That is a joke.

PlayerSkillFTW said:

Paithan said:

Evasion is overpowered.  That is why literally everyone uses it when group fighting.  The 12 second cool down on 8 seconds of evading 60% of spells?  That is a joke.

You only get 8 seconds of 60% Evasion if you have 120 Bushido AND 120 Parry AND GM+ Tact AND GM+ Anat. No Parry Mage has that. Not to mention, Parry Mages that use Evasion, are wielding a Wep , therefore being vulnerable to Disarms.

Evasion used to be overpowered, back when it had no CD, had no skill requirements other than Bush+Parry, and only Mages had the MR to keep it up 24/7. Hence why they added the 20 sec cooldown to it, and made it require Warrior skills for the max duration.

Cookie said:

Resist Spells = not required due to orange petals, trapped boxes, and cleanse.

Learn to Mana Vamp. Watch people without Resist crap their pants and run. 1 Mana Vamp basically neuters them.

Cookie said:

• Dismount is the most unfun part of pvp, it just kills the vibe. It is certainly overpowered. Running is just an essential part of current pvp, used by all classes. Dismount prevents running. Of course, I personally would prefer everyone was on foot chained to the same area. 🙂 But nah, I also like using different terrains.

Dismount actually puts a Dexxer at a bigger disadvantage than it does a Mage in a 1v1. If a Dexxer gets on foot and Dismounts you, just Teleport away from him, and proceed to nuke his ass. Him taking longer to get to you, or to run from you, buys you more time to unload on him with spells. Just keep interrupting any Ethy attempt, and you have him. Teleport is a third level spell that can be quickly cast to create an up to 10 tile gap between you and the dexxer, where you can hit him with spells, and he's gotta try to slog his way to you. The only time this doesn't work, is if you're Yew Gate fighting near a crapload of houses that block Teleport. Mages can dismount others as well, from range, with a Bola.

It seriously sounds like you need to take a look through your spellbook, and realize just all the tools that Mages have at their disposal. This combination of utility tools (Bless, Teleport for gap open/close, Wall of Stone for LoS, E-Field to block passage, Dispel Field to bring down Wall of Stone/E-Field/Gates, Invis to break targeting, Greater Heal for 10 tile cross heals, Arch Cure for ranged/AoE cures, Reveal, Gates) is something that no other base skillset has. Mages also have a good amount of burst and healing capability. If you combine that with Parry, you get not only even more defense on the template, but by extension, you also get more offense out of it due to more uninterrupted casts, not to mention the burst of mixing in a Shield Bash with a Exp+FS. No other template has that degree of versatility.

Seth said:

By the way, when I just started out with the basic Parry Mage, my friend can kill it with his sampire because of evasion and bokuto nerve strike.

Mana Vamp his Sampire, and watch him be unable to do anything. If the Sampire has Parry for Evasion to work, then odds are he doesn't have Resist.

Yes mages have 64 spells.

Yes mages with parry can help to defend against dexxer. 

My concern was previously with mage warrior or dexxer pvper.

After removing the parry from the mage, you just made every pvm dexxer template more effective against any mage in pvp? They probably need to bokuto nerve me to death, no chance to even cast a spell unless I have protection and FC fr = 0. 

PlayerSkillFTW - You can always tell the players who don't play a mage, they give it all the theory craft, and talk a good game. Go and play a pure mage on Atlantic in 10v10 battles, and tell me how it goes for you.

Then tell me how easy that mana vamp was (circle 7 spell, anything above circle 4 is pretty hard to cast in pvp with dexxers all over you), and how feared you were due to you using it. I can tell you from real ingame experience, it does very little.

Go and hit your little teleport key when you are splintered, bleeding, stunned, dismounted with 10 players dumping on you and you're stuck on foot again because your the mage without parry.

Current mounted dismount puts the dexxer at no disadvantage at all, they have macros that work the speed of light, off and on in the blink of an eye, meaning they were never at a disadvantage.

The_Higgs_1 - You have just not seen the entire issue I'm afraid. "All these players have parry, parry must be the problem..." Is just a gross oversimplication, to the point of not even seeing the real issue.

Thing is, I don't even use parry. Nerfing parry will have zero effect on me. But I do know what it will do. It will convert the last few parry users in the game to weapon users/dexxers. Or the ones like me who have so far refused to use parry, will have to quit, we already cannot compete, and facing even more dexxers/weapon users than the current avalanche will be an impossibility.            

Cookie said:

@ PlayerSkillFTW - You can always tell the players who don't play a mage, they give it all the theory craft, and talk a good game. Go and play a pure mage on Atlantic in 10v10 battles, and tell me how it goes for you.

Then tell me how easy that mana vamp was (circle 7 spell, anything above circle 4 is pretty hard to cast in pvp with dexxers all over you), and how feared you were due to you using it. I can tell you from real ingame experience, it does very little.

Go and hit your little teleport key when you are splintered, bleeding, stunned, dismounted with 10 players dumping on you and you're stuck on foot again because your the mage without parry.

Current mounted dismount puts the dexxer at no disadvantage at all, they have macros that work the speed of light, off and on in the blink of an eye, meaning they were never at a disadvantage.

@ The_Higgs_1 - You have just not seen the entire issue I'm afraid. "All these players have parry, parry must be the problem..." Is just a gross oversimplication, to the point of not even seeing the real issue.

Thing is, I don't even use parry. Nerfing parry will have zero effect on me. But I do know what it will do. It will convert the last few parry users in the game to weapon users/dexxers. Or the ones like me who have so far refused to use parry, will have to quit, we already cannot compete, and facing even more dexxers/weapon users than the current avalanche will be an impossibility.            

it's very expensive to equip and use a good mage dexxer. That is why I like my noob pure mage with parry and 720 skills only. It's cheaper although I do spend quite a bit to get the full specs with 80 DeX, but way cheaper because I dont need uber weapon.

Still don't get why anyone would nerf a template that is basically outdated, defensive and only 720 skill points. Is this really a top priority requiring a sticky discussion. 

....
What else is the next nerf guys, so I dont have to waste time and money only to be made redundant overnight.

Bokuto splintering nerve strike with magery  and bushido evasion, is it OP? Mystic with bushido and magery? Archer Mystic Ninja warrior?

CovenantX said:

Bilbo said:

So if they NERF ParryMages what will become the new OP PvPer

    Mages - any variant, would still be the best. 

I wouldn't say they'd be OP at that point though.  Let's just say they won't be the best by the same margin that they are right now.

 

this is 100% the worst idea ive ever seen for a change and if you take faster casting away from parry mages it fully ruins the template and the funny part is you have 3 different shields with faster casting on it to promote mages using it. these changes are design to make dexers overpowered in pvp and if a mage takes parry he is using skill points that could be use for more damage so that's a choice he makes to do less damage for more defence if you want to nurf anything nurf the anatomy and parry together with healing instead of using wrestling but don't nurf parry you will ruin every char that's been built that way and me personally I will quit this game for good. I might only have 2 accounts and maybe it don't hurt you guys to lose 2 more accounts but I am sure I am not only one that feels this way plenty of free shards I can play that actually vaule are time and the characters we have built to play how we wanna play

@Bleak

This is by far one of the worst changes that I have seen recommended. If you take FC away from mages with parry, you give dexers the entirety of pvp. If you devuff parry too much, you also give dexers the entirety of pvp. I'd like you to try to fight a group of dexers with mages with no parry, mages will get demolished. In a 1v1 scenario, a dexer can walk through a mage without parry. 

If you make either of these changes mentioned, you ruin pvp and balance. 

All the options sound bad. Need to just leave parry alone.

CovenantX said:

Bilbo said:

So if they NERF ParryMages what will become the new OP PvPer

    Mages - any variant, would still be the best. 

I wouldn't say they'd be OP at that point though.  Let's just say they won't be the best by the same margin that they are right now.

 

TY for your reply.  It just seems everytime one play style is nerfed then there is another one that gets whined about until it is nerfed.  Wonders what would happen if UO stripped out all the past nerfs 

Suggestion:

• The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced by 15%-25%* for defenders that have over 720.0 total skill points. Determine how much wiggle room for skill points above 720.
• Set a hard modified skill cap and leave the Parry skill alone.

I would go with the first of these suggestions an use like 750-760 as the break point.  The second one seems like it would effect more then pvp.   Id just like to see it go from 35% down to 25% for parry chance for everything without it affecting other stuff.  Then just see how it goes for a few weeks live and adjust it if it needs it.   

There is no way that dexxers will take over UO no matter what happens to parry, mage will always be king of pvp.   Right now dexxers are completely useless, with a little adjustment to parry they might be able to login in again and try.

The_Higgs_1 said:

There is no way that dexxers will take over UO no matter what happens to parry, mage will always be king of pvp.   Right now dexxers are completely useless, with a little adjustment to parry they might be able to login in again and try.

Lol, do we even play the same game? 🙂

Are we in some alternate reality or something.

Sampires (pvm domination), Mounted Dexxer Deathstrikers (pvp), Dismount Stealthers (pvp), Weaponised Hybrids (pvp), Parry style Casters +90 Dexterity (pvp), Lethal Poison Nox Dexxers (pvp), Pure Dexxers with +80 mana for specials(pvp), all these are Dexxers of some style. Dexxer in UO is quite a broad definition, and Dominates.

What servers, playstyles, guild are you in, what's your playstyle?

Where do you see Pure Mages fitting in, in any of this, or even beginning to compete, let alone being the King?

As you see, I would happily have Parry nerfed (it fits my definition of Dexxer - too much Dex to be useful for a Mage - Mages shouldn't need Parry or Dexterity - I agree you can debate this), but Parry cannot be nerfed at the cost of destroying Pure Mages even further, and turning everything into one of the Dexxer styles I have listed above. Basically, the Parry Caster styles, are hanging on to the last vestiges of being a Mage that they can.

I myself have rejected Parry, having Dex, and using a Weapon, someone has to stick up for the principles here. I would like Pure Mages buffed, so Mages have another option, and can be Mages again. Suggestions = Buff DCI, Resist Spells, Meditation, Wrestle, Inscription, give us Off-Hand Globes/Crystal Balls for Graphics (Craftable with Tinkering/Inscription) that have Stats but do not use Parry. All of these options, would help strengthen Casting Classes enough to drop Parry, without a Nerf being required.

lmao. this is turning out to be real ugly. But that is to be expected when you decide to nerf a skill that really should not be nerfed

The_Higgs_1 said:

Suggestion:

• The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced by 15%-25%* for defenders that have over 720.0 total skill points. Determine how much wiggle room for skill points above 720.
• Set a hard modified skill cap and leave the Parry skill alone.

I would go with the first of these suggestions an use like 750-760 as the break point.  The second one seems like it would effect more then pvp.   Id just like to see it go from 35% down to 25% for parry chance for everything without it affecting other stuff.  Then just see how it goes for a few weeks live and adjust it if it needs it.   

There is no way that dexxers will take over UO no matter what happens to parry, mage will always be king of pvp.   Right now dexxers are completely useless, with a little adjustment to parry they might be able to login in again and try.

Seth said:

Right now parry mage is OP? Against who, pure dexxers?

Alright, nerf the parry and make it drop when a mage holds up a shield.

My Sampire would be finally be 100% effective against a mage, using my bokuto with splintering 20, Hit lightning 50%, HLD 50% and adding nerve strike. Force walking, bleed and para. Don't let me land a hit, or it will be OOoooOOO.. Try to cast a spell when I swing at 1.25s with the fastest sword. And I can evade spells and Confidence with Bushido.

CovenantX said:

Seth said:

Right now parry mage is OP? Against who, pure dexxers?

Alright, nerf the parry and make it drop when a mage holds up a shield.

My Sampire would be finally be 100% effective against a mage, using my bokuto with splintering 20, Hit lightning 50%, HLD 50% and adding nerve strike. Force walking, bleed and para. Don't let me land a hit, or it will be OOoooOOO.. Try to cast a spell when I swing at 1.25s with the fastest sword. And I can evade spells and Confidence with Bushido.

    What are you talking about?   they could do both of Bleak's suggested changes, and dexers still wouldn't be above mages.   they'd simply be competitive again that's all.

  your sampire would be 100% effective against a mage if parry were nerfed?  That would mean your sampire would be at least 90% effective right now while parry is on almost 100% of casters in pvp lol.    but you know it's not true because if it were, this conversation wouldn't even be taking place.

Seth said:

We just ruled out mages for good in PVP when PVM Sampires can now cut them up like Tofu also.

Sorry add Chivalry to the list. My Sampire I can still swap out 4/6 jewels in PVP and cast heal and remove curse.

  You're a funny guy..   so it's ok for parry-mages to "rule out" dexers.  gotcha, cause that's what has been happening for the last 3-4 years or so.   

Could you imagine how garbage mages would be if 'Resisting Spells' had a Passive 35% chance to completely negate each spell's damage?     ...as long as Parry does that against dexers, It's ok though right?

  What's stopping you from going 4/6 chivalry right now on your sampire?    I don't have a problem pvping with my sampire, I just don't enjoy spending 20+ minutes chasing a guy that's only likely to be hit by 1/3-4 attacks  when I'm expected to hit 4-5 times without them healing to kill them.    It's much faster for me to just switch clients to a mage and take em out in a few minutes.  

Honestly, most of the time it was faster to use a mage even before parry-mages were possible again. just not every time like it is now.

Seth said:

I would have a lesser issue if the nerf is targeting the skill cap rather than the skill itself. This is another ball game. The topic has become Parry Mage + another skill, whatever that maybe or who it may affect, I am not sure.

I will argue the rest of your statements for the sake in case Bleak back track to the original plan.

"so it's ok for parry-mages to "rule out" dexers.  gotcha, cause that's what has been happening for the last 3-4 years or so.  "

CovenantX said:

Seth said:

I would have a lesser issue if the nerf is targeting the skill cap rather than the skill itself. This is another ball game. The topic has become Parry Mage + another skill, whatever that maybe or who it may affect, I am not sure.

I will argue the rest of your statements for the sake in case Bleak back track to the original plan.

"so it's ok for parry-mages to "rule out" dexers.  gotcha, cause that's what has been happening for the last 3-4 years or so.  "

   the skill cap isn't the main culprit.   It's bonus stats more than anything.  you could have every single skill at 120.0 if you have less than 80 dex Parry will block less than 5% of the time. 

    Instead of reducing the stats on new existing gear (cause there's so much of it now, and all it'll do is cause people to quit) the only thing to do is reduce the parry chances.

  the topic became Parry+Magery because no other template with parry has anywhere near as powerful an offense as that.   If you read and understood most of what this thread has been talking about you'd know this.

   Pvp templates are and always have been effective against pvm templates regardless of parry or not... you throw out all this nonsense like it helps your argument somehow but all it does is tell everyone you have no idea what you're talking about.  -Thanks for posting this btw  "ruling out" the trolls is half the battle.

Seth said:

> What is wrong when a PVP Parry Mage Template is effective against a PVM Warrior Dexxer Template. 

What you are proposing is going to make every PVM Warrior template effective against a PVP mage in PVP. They just need to pop on the right weapon and swing mindlessly. (1 action nullifies 64 spells)

Your are the one that is funny.

 

   You seem to be implying that parry is only useful against pvm templates (sampires)... yet, in the history of UO there hasn't been a "PVP Template" to ever EVER struggle with any PvM template until now?  .... lol...  as if it wasn't obvious before, There's no way in hell you have any UO pvp experience.

 Personally, I don't think repeating oneself is very funny.    However, I do think it's hilarious to watch a troll slay himself for once.   

I mean, have you ever heard of a "pvper" crying about pvmers beating them?   I have never heard of that since I started UO in 97' (except tamers - when there was no follower limit =X)

Personally I read and enjoyed your articles at stratics but your argument here is way out.

Seth said:

Personally I read and enjoyed your articles at stratics but your argument here is way out.

Now you are calling me a noob with no PVP experience whatsoever, and yet I am the one asking for this to be tested out in the fields.

Cookie said:

The_Higgs_1 said:

There is no way that dexxers will take over UO no matter what happens to parry, mage will always be king of pvp.   Right now dexxers are completely useless, with a little adjustment to parry they might be able to login in again and try.

Lol, do we even play the same game? 🙂

Are we in some alternate reality or something.

Sampires (pvm domination), Mounted Dexxer Deathstrikers (pvp), Dismount Stealthers (pvp), Weaponised Hybrids (pvp), Parry style Casters +90 Dexterity (pvp), Lethal Poison Nox Dexxers (pvp), Pure Dexxers with +80 mana for specials(pvp), all these are Dexxers of some style. Dexxer in UO is quite a broad definition, and Dominates.

What servers, playstyles, guild are you in, what's your playstyle?

Where do you see Pure Mages fitting in, in any of this, or even beginning to compete, let alone being the King?

As you see, I would happily have Parry nerfed (it fits my definition of Dexxer - too much Dex to be useful for a Mage - Mages shouldn't need Parry or Dexterity - I agree you can debate this), but Parry cannot be nerfed at the cost of destroying Pure Mages even further, and turning everything into one of the Dexxer styles I have listed above. Basically, the Parry Caster styles, are hanging on to the last vestiges of being a Mage that they can.

I myself have rejected Parry, having Dex, and using a Weapon, someone has to stick up for the principles here. I would like Pure Mages buffed, so Mages have another option, and can be Mages again. Suggestions = Buff DCI, Resist Spells, Meditation, Wrestle, Inscription, give us Off-Hand Globes/Crystal Balls for Graphics (Craftable with Tinkering/Inscription) that have Stats but do not use Parry. All of these options, would help strengthen Casting Classes enough to drop Parry, without a Nerf being required.

First of all magery is the only stand alone casting school in the game due to its 64 spell versalility.  There is no other casting school you can use without something helping it, be it weapon skill or another casting school.  

I play mostly a mystic mage on most shards, the extra skill varies from scribe or nox or weaving depending on what type of fight Im going to be in.   I don't run parry and my dex is never over 70 even with pot, and ive been killing dexxers for years with that setup.  Of course if your being attacked by a gank of dexxers your probably going to lose if you dont run away.  But that can be said about any template in the game so it doesn't matter.   Right now everyone has parry regardless of what template theyre playing cause its too strong to not have.  Even the bush ninja deathstriker has it plus resist spells cause global loot allows such nonsense.  Before all this people had to choose between parry or resist which balanced the equation and kept people from making OP templates.  Like I said I could agree with the skill cap around 750-760 and beyond that you lose parry chance down to 20-25%.  Id rather see just a parry chance drop without affecting skill/stat caps.

Oh and if your not able to beat a dexxer now on a mage without parry, then you just need to practice more.  The mage literally has every advantage in the fight from range to massive versatility.  You can field, teleport, cast dmg, kite direction around objects or on top of roofs.  Open your books and learn the other 62 spells other then explo, fs.  

Like I said: make shields disarmable, nerf cool down of evasion (make it like 30 seconds to a minute). Nerf chiv casting, make a frozen casting time for animal form. Maybe tweak refinements a little bit so they're more accessible (removing armor types e.i. studded samurai, bone, hide, plate)

gg

@CovenantX

I am beginning to believe this thread is no longer providing any useful feedback or suggestions.

Rorschach said:

I am beginning to believe this thread is no longer providing any useful feedback or suggestions.

Thats true, because there are 2 sides, first one peple playing parry mages as main chars in pvp and its clear they dont want any changes, because nerfing their template force them to change their template and they dont want spend time and money for that. On the other sides we have dexxers that have big disadvantage vs parry mage. Both sides try to defend their template nothing else. Very few people bring some useful feedback with examples in average math chances.

Out of all the posts in this thread the most ridiculous was the original post by Bleak, a case of start as you mean to go on.

If you are going to nerf parry for mages I would suggest that you do one or more of the following to ensure the mage class doesn't get absolutely tore up.

1. Remove the dex requirement for parry

2. Bring back 4/6 mage casting

3.  Make it so casting a spell no longer removes your weapon or wrestling special proc.

4.  allow 4/6 chiv casting with magery

5. allow specials with mage weapons (without tactics or anatomy)

6.  do something about the trapped boxes breaking paralyze exploit.

7.  allow magery focus spec to have any other skills 

 

Lieutenant_Dan said:

If you are going to nerf parry for mages I would suggest that you do one or more of the following to ensure the mage class doesn't get absolutely tore up.

1. Remove the dex requirement for parry

2. Bring back 4/6 mage casting

3.  Make it so casting a spell no longer removes your weapon or wrestling special proc.

4.  allow 4/6 chiv casting with magery

5. allow specials with mage weapons (without tactics or anatomy)

6.  do something about the trapped boxes breaking paralyze exploit.

7.  allow magery focus spec to have any other skills 

 

Of course some of these can be made with compromise...

For instance,  they could keep the skill restrictions for focus spec mages AND do there parry nerf IF they allow focus spec mage to have 4/6 mage casting.

Seth said:

@ CovenantX

I strongly believe you are the one who is seriously inexperience in PVP.

Hmm... do you play Dexxer pvp? Don't talk maths, talk with actions, come pvp with your parry mage so show us how good it is.

Oh I know, you have mistaken all those "mages" standing in the game as "parry mages".

My PVM tamer mages are also using shields. What do you want us to hold on the left hand when it can get free specs from Legendary shields.

Lieutenant_Dan said:

If you are going to nerf parry for mages I would suggest that you do one or more of the following to ensure the mage class doesn't get absolutely tore up.

1. Remove the dex requirement for parry

2. Bring back 4/6 mage casting

3.  Make it so casting a spell no longer removes your weapon or wrestling special proc.

4.  allow 4/6 chiv casting with magery

5. allow specials with mage weapons (without tactics or anatomy)

6.  do something about the trapped boxes breaking paralyze exploit.

7.  allow magery focus spec to have any other skills

Wentoxxx said:

Rorschach said:

I am beginning to believe this thread is no longer providing any useful feedback or suggestions.

Thats true, because there are 2 sides, first one peple playing parry mages as main chars in pvp and its clear they dont want any changes, because nerfing their template force them to change their template and they dont want spend time and money for that. On the other sides we have dexxers that have big disadvantage vs parry mage. Both sides try to defend their template nothing else. Very few people bring some useful feedback with examples in average math chances.

OMG!!!! If anyone thinks dexxers are better then mages you are a bad player PERIOD!!!.   Second the mod who said this thread is going nowhere has no idea how to play UO.  Its literally not even a discussion, parry needs to be nerfed.  Either by a hard cap on skills or a overall nerf to parry, if not the game in pvp will die completely.  *Mic drop*

The_Higgs_1 said:

OMG!!!! If anyone thinks dexxers are better then mages you are a bad player PERIOD!!!.   Second the mod who said this thread is going nowhere has no idea how to play UO.  Its literally not even a discussion, parry needs to be nerfed.  Either by a hard cap on skills or a overall nerf to parry, if not the game in pvp will die completely.  *Mic drop*

I guess I've been misjudging players all this time then, they've all been playing dexxers for the "challenge".

And players have been taking up the passive parry skill that's wastes Dex, loses Int and skillpoints on their mages just for fun, (because there aren't actually any dexxers out there they need to use parry against).

@CovenantX - pure mages do get tore up by dexxers, I know, because I play one every day, in every pvp scenario going.

I'll leave it here, but basically myself , and many many good pvpers I know, would completely disagree with your stance. I've said everything that can be said now.

Cookie said:

I guess I've been misjudging players all this time then, they've all been playing dexxers for the "challenge".

And players have been taking up the passive parry skill that's wastes Dex, loses Int and skillpoints on their mages just for fun, (because there aren't actually any dexxers out there they need to use parry against).

@ CovenantX - pure mages do get tore up by dexxers, I know, because I play one every day, in every pvp scenario going.

I'll leave it here, but basically myself , and many many good pvpers I know, would completely disagree with your stance. I've said everything that can be said now

CovenantX said:

Cookie said:

I guess I've been misjudging players all this time then, they've all been playing dexxers for the "challenge".

And players have been taking up the passive parry skill that's wastes Dex, loses Int and skillpoints on their mages just for fun, (because there aren't actually any dexxers out there they need to use parry against).

@ CovenantX - pure mages do get tore up by dexxers, I know, because I play one every day, in every pvp scenario going.

I'll leave it here, but basically myself , and many many good pvpers I know, would completely disagree with your stance. I've said everything that can be said now

  

    No, that's why people play mages.    except dexers aren't part of the 'challenge' anymore, they're weak & super easy to survive, especially if you add parry to the mage.

  players take up parry (and bushido) to evade spells.... dexers are a non-issue since wrestle/anat+parry... you don't need "evasion' to fight a dexer.... parry does it all by itself.   you're grasping at every tiny little thing you possibly can.... Surely it's becoming embarrassing by now.

  I've been playing non-parry mages, they get tore up if they're bad at pvp..... but guess what, parry is so good, it doesn't matter if you're bad at pvp or not.    That's the point.

  if these 'good' pvpers' pvp like you describe your pvp, I wouldn't doubt they'd disagree with me. (though I think you're just making it up, tbh)

  I'll just leave this here: (taken from Stratics)

Cookie said:

I'm not sure a dexxer should be able to kill a parry mage easily, or at all 1v1?
But to be fair, a parry mage cannot also kill a dexxer unless you've trapped it - due to the sacrifices made, and the healing and running ability of dexxers.
I personally, gave up playing a parry mage, because I can't cast enough, I like to cast fields and larger spells non stop in group fights, I like my DPS.
It means I cannot fight at Yew gate without being mincemeat.
I'm a group fight player, I fight in large groups, over objectives.
A few of my friends play parry mages or dexxers, and they basically protect me, keep me alive, and I do the annoying support stuff.
Reaper, energy fields, paralyse fields, thunderstorm, essence of wind, a few heals, meteor swarm, flamestrikes etc.

   Anything else?

Don't see anything that contradicts @Covenantx?

In fact, it all 100% backs up my current position.

I'm saying parry mage is a super defensive template, that is not great to play as a mage. So super defensive, it should at least be hard to kill. I can agree there may need to be some sort of adjustment re PvP, but the issue is not down to parry, as I've said 100 times now, it's due to the dexxers being OP in the first place.

I've also stated there, I don't like playing parry mages, I did for awhile a few years ago, they just don't have enough spell casting ability for me. Doesn't affect me in the slightest if parry mages are nerfed - BUT it does turn the game into Dexxer Online, more so than it is even now.

I've also stated pures get destroyed, in an open environment like Yew Gate by the dexxer armies. If I'm in a team battle, I have to hide right at the back quite often to stay alive.

I have also stated previously, players like you, need to state what the issue is clearly. Is your issue parry, or is it evasion? Is your issue a parry mage, or a bushido/chiv parry mage? You seem out to nerf the entire mage class. I play a pure mage - and I have no issue with evasion... I have no issue with mages that have parry - because they have used skillpoints, to achieve very little from my perspective. So what is the issue exactly?

And to add, as a player who actually pvp's, in a team with other players, I don't need to make anything up, especially to justify myself to a forum warrior like yourself. And I'll say the same to Higgs as well - the two of you, have fallen back into default mode of tackling the player and suggesting I'm a bad pvper, as you are both losing your arguments.

We can leave it there, it's a perfect summary.

Cookie said:

CovenantX said:

    No, that's why people play mages.    except dexers aren't part of the 'challenge' anymore, they're weak & super easy to survive, especially if you add parry to the mage.

  players take up parry (and bushido) to evade spells.... dexers are a non-issue since wrestle/anat+parry... you don't need "evasion' to fight a dexer.... parry does it all by itself.   you're grasping at every tiny little thing you possibly can.... Surely it's becoming embarrassing by now.

  I've been playing non-parry mages, they get tore up if they're bad at pvp..... but guess what, parry is so good, it doesn't matter if you're bad at pvp or not.    That's the point.

  if these 'good' pvpers' pvp like you describe your pvp, I wouldn't doubt they'd disagree with me. (though I think you're just making it up, tbh)

  I'll just leave this here: (taken from Stratics)

Cookie said:

I'm not sure a dexxer should be able to kill a parry mage easily, or at all 1v1?
But to be fair, a parry mage cannot also kill a dexxer unless you've trapped it - due to the sacrifices made, and the healing and running ability of dexxers.
I personally, gave up playing a parry mage, because I can't cast enough, I like to cast fields and larger spells non stop in group fights, I like my DPS.
It means I cannot fight at Yew gate without being mincemeat.
I'm a group fight player, I fight in large groups, over objectives.
A few of my friends play parry mages or dexxers, and they basically protect me, keep me alive, and I do the annoying support stuff.
Reaper, energy fields, paralyse fields, thunderstorm, essence of wind, a few heals, meteor swarm, flamestrikes etc.

   Anything else?

Don't see anything that contradicts @ Covenantx?

In fact, it all 100% backs up my current position.

I'm saying parry mage is a super defensive template, that is not great to play as a mage. So super defensive, it should at least be hard to kill. I can agree there may need to be some sort of adjustment re PvP, but the issue is not down to parry, as I've said 100 times now, it's due to the dexxers being OP in the first place.

I've also stated there, I don't like playing parry mages, I did for awhile a few years ago, they just don't have enough spell casting ability for me. Doesn't affect me in the slightest if parry mages are nerfed - BUT it does turn the game into Dexxer Online, more so than it is even now.

I've also stated pures get destroyed, in an open environment like Yew Gate by the dexxer armies. If I'm in a team battle, I have to hide right at the back quite often to stay alive.

I have also stated previously, players like you, need to state what the issue is clearly. Is your issue parry, or is it evasion? Is your issue a parry mage, or a bushido/chiv parry mage? You seem out to nerf the entire mage class. I play a pure mage - and I have no issue with evasion... I have no issue with mages that have parry - because they have used skillpoints, to achieve very little from my perspective. So what is the issue exactly?

And to add, as a player who actually pvp's, in a team with other players, I don't need to make anything up, especially to justify myself to a forum warrior like yourself. And I'll say the same to Higgs as well - the two of you, have fallen back into default mode of tackling the player and suggesting I'm a bad pvper, as you are both losing your arguments.

We can leave it there, it's a perfect summary.

Aeyko said:

@ Bleak

This is by far one of the worst changes that I have seen recommended. If you take FC away from mages with parry, you give dexers the entirety of pvp. If you devuff parry too much, you also give dexers the entirety of pvp. I'd like you to try to fight a group of dexers with mages with no parry, mages will get demolished. In a 1v1 scenario, a dexer can walk through a mage without parry. 

If you make either of these changes mentioned, you ruin pvp and balance. 

Well said! We are confused by what they are trying to achieve with this, and to benefit who the most. They want the super clear Dexxer (not even a magic warrior hybrid) to be mage killers in PVP.

Seth said:

Cookie said:

CovenantX said:

    No, that's why people play mages.    except dexers aren't part of the 'challenge' anymore, they're weak & super easy to survive, especially if you add parry to the mage.

  players take up parry (and bushido) to evade spells.... dexers are a non-issue since wrestle/anat+parry... you don't need "evasion' to fight a dexer.... parry does it all by itself.   you're grasping at every tiny little thing you possibly can.... Surely it's becoming embarrassing by now.

  I've been playing non-parry mages, they get tore up if they're bad at pvp..... but guess what, parry is so good, it doesn't matter if you're bad at pvp or not.    That's the point.

  if these 'good' pvpers' pvp like you describe your pvp, I wouldn't doubt they'd disagree with me. (though I think you're just making it up, tbh)

  I'll just leave this here: (taken from Stratics)

Cookie said:

I'm not sure a dexxer should be able to kill a parry mage easily, or at all 1v1?
But to be fair, a parry mage cannot also kill a dexxer unless you've trapped it - due to the sacrifices made, and the healing and running ability of dexxers.

Don't see anything that contradicts @ Covenantx?

In fact, it all 100% backs up my current position.

Well said!

'Only the inexperienced will say this:

#1

"   No, that's why people play mages.    except dexers aren't part of the 'challenge' anymore, they're weak & super easy to survive, especially if you add parry to the mage."

>> Sorry the good PVPers don't play pure mages, they play Hybrid mages.
Warrior Dexxer Mages, Archer Mages, Mystic Mages, Parry Mage is just on one of the defensive options and its NOT the Striker of the team. Ofcourse there are many other template options.

People who don't PVP in a team won't understand this.

He keep talking about "Dexxer"  without referring a specific PVP templates, whereas I have showed him mine. And he said it is outdated!

Yet he keep wanting to nerf the parry.

Yes this is very contradicting!

#2

"  I've been playing non-parry mages, they get tore up if they're bad at pvp..... but guess what, parry is so good, it doesn't matter if you're bad at pvp or not.    That's the point."

>> Maybe he should play more parry mage to understand its not the king pin in any PVP field fight. Oh maybe he is an expert in Parry Mage, then we should ask for a Demo Video to show case all his theories in this thread.

There are none so far!

#3

"  if these 'good' pvpers' pvp like you describe your pvp, I wouldn't doubt they'd disagree with me. (though I think you're just making it up, tbh)"

>> You doubt!? Thanks for admitting you are just a theory person with not much pvp experience. Everything the opposition disagrees here are all tried and tested. Again, you are free to showcase your finest in Parry Mage that it should be nerfed. Ofcourse, you need to find worthy opponents in viable PVP Hybrid templates and Not Pure Templates.

This thread is getting way too personal. Leave out the criticism of each other's play/playstyle and stick to the topic please.

If you do not have parry- dexers are way overpowered.  Parry is needed to compete.  Dexers do just fine STILL vs people with parry.  I do think 35% at 120 might be a bit much- mainly due to how badly they nerfed archers.  The only nerf that really makes sense is global nerf of 5-10%.  

The people that theory talk about dexers not being overpowered- how about you go to Atlantic and fight the medium to high end dexers with no parry on your mage and let's see what happens.  I already know the result.  

CovenantX said:

 

  # 1)  "good mages play hybrids"   No,  good mages can play any mage and still win the majority of their fights.       Good dexers were at this stage before parry was easy for mages to get again... shocker, I know.

   -  In case you haven't noticed. I'm not referring to Team Fights.    one vs one, every single template you mentioned would beat a dexer more often than not.  in a team, it's even more difficult for dexer(s) to compete against it.      everyone knows it, except you apparently.

  Btw, what part of 'weapon being your only source of damage' do you not understand?

  # 2) I don't need to play parry-mages anymore than I have to know a Mage without Parry > a Dexer .  Obviously a mage with parry will be much better than a dexer...

  You however, lose to sampires as a parry-mage (you said it, not me) because you're Inexperienced, which would cause you to lose regardless of the template going against you..  again, stop embarrassing yourself.

 # 3)  Context escapes you yet again, an unfortunate pattern with you... it's unbelievable.

Paithan said:

If you do not have parry- dexers are way overpowered.  Parry is needed to compete.  Dexers do just fine STILL vs people with parry.  I do think 35% at 120 might be a bit much- mainly due to how badly they nerfed archers.  The only nerf that really makes sense is global nerf of 5-10%.  

The people that theory talk about dexers not being overpowered- how about you go to Atlantic and fight the medium to high end dexers with no parry on your mage and let's see what happens.  I already know the result.  

Cookie said:

@ PlayerSkillFTW - You can always tell the players who don't play a mage, they give it all the theory craft, and talk a good game. Go and play a pure mage on Atlantic in 10v10 battles, and tell me how it goes for you.

Then tell me how easy that mana vamp was (circle 7 spell, anything above circle 4 is pretty hard to cast in pvp with dexxers all over you), and how feared you were due to you using it. I can tell you from real ingame experience, it does very little.

Go and hit your little teleport key when you are splintered, bleeding, stunned, dismounted with 10 players dumping on you and you're stuck on foot again because your the mage without parry.

Current mounted dismount puts the dexxer at no disadvantage at all, they have macros that work the speed of light, off and on in the blink of an eye, meaning they were never at a disadvantage.

Parry mage surviving 10 vs 1 focus targeting?

Please show proof with a video and what are the 10 templates.

If there is an exploit that needs to adjusted, so be it. But I have not seen and experienced the same. 

CovenantX said:

Seth said:

Thanks for confirming again, in summary:
1) You don't play parry mages

2) You confirmed that parry mages are outdated templates

3) You are not referring to team fights, only 1V1 perhaps in a boxed up sparring environment. Isolated scenario.

4) Apparently, you arguments are gearing towards supporting Pure Dexxer template since your ruled out all hybrids.

This is why it draw so many other opposition and even suggestions to buff the pure mage. Everyone understands this and it is evident that they are bringing up buffing the pure mage.

And it is evident that you are the only who is lost in your own argument.

If you counter any of the above points, you are contradicting yourself, complicating and confusing us even further

.

And if you can't defend any of the above, you have lost more than 80% of the argument.

   1)  That's how I know dexers don't "tear up" mages without Parry I play without Parry on Mages.    .   but this guy wants to be able to pvp with 230 latency, loses to a sampire (pure dexer) like parry is going to help with that, and claims parry is fine?     Yeah, let's listen to this guy.... not.

  

  2)  Where did I say Parry-mages are outdated?   I said meditation is outdated (referring to your template because it has Med (useless skill in todays pvp)).... despite it being specified in the very post about it, you somehow failed to notice.

  3) I guess it takes a genius to notice I'm referring to one vs one?    hmm.. it seemed clear to everyone else no?  shocker, I know.  (that pattern tho?)

 4) Parry doesn't affect anything else to the same extent.... What else is new? lol

 

--

  What opposition?    You?   hehe...  most 'good parry-mages' aren't not even defending parry from being nerfed. They're defending Parry from the two proposed nerfs in the OP.  

 So far the consensus is a global -10%  parry chance reduction (this means you won't block as much).   I'd said 10-15%  (preferring -15%) but 10% is better than nothing.. but any nerf is better than nothing... lol

   It's evident I lost my argument?   My argument is to nerf parry for mages...  the original post suggests nerfs are coming (finally)   The current 'fixes' affects more skills than necessary (imo) but, magery is one of them.   -Judging by that, my argument is already won. 

Where did you get the idea that I lost my argument again?   -I've got an idea about that, but I don't think I should say it.

Seth said:

1)  Ofcourse I know dexxers don't tear up parry mages, this is what everyone is talking about.

CovenantX said:

Seth said:

1)  Ofcourse I know dexxers don't tear up parry mages, this is what everyone is talking about.

CovenantX said:

   1)  That's how I know dexers don't "tear up" mages without Parry I play without Parry on Mages. 

   Does anyone that knows how to read want to debate about parry?

  

   

Didn't you say you don't even really play and when you do it's on a dead LS shard?

If so- then you don't know how it is fighting actual good dexers on mages without parry.  I do.  Parry is needed if you want to ever get a spell off.  The more I read your comments on dexers not being overpowered- the less i can take you seriously.  The only dexers that aren't overpowered are archers.

Well, here we go again.  Same argument on another forum, convoluted by nothing but contradicting theoretical nonsense.  Refer to stratics for pages of myself disproving every statement made by players who don't even participate in pvp suggesting parry is overpowered.

The only change to parry that wouldn't absolutely ruin this game is a slight reduction in parry chance.  Evasion is the real issue with the state of pvp.  I've posted videos of low tier dexxers slaughtering the best parry and non parry mages left in this game.  The response was "quit posting evidence that only supports your side of the argument."  Incredible response.

Have been playing an archer mage recently, obviously without parry or refinements.  No evasion means I am target 90% of the time in group fights.  Had a sweet 2v2 a few days ago against an archer and an AI/LP mage.  In five minutes I think I managed to get a magic arrow off between being splintered half the fight and the archer hitting successful 50+ damage double shots on nearly every swing.  I tell ya, nothing as fun as being hit so much that the mage you're fighting doesn't even cast spells because he hits so often with a weapon.  

What Paith has offered has been offered many times before.  I'd enjoy seeing anyone arguing against parry to fight someone like Gen, Leet, etc without parry.  These "theory arguments" of oh ya a parry mage will beat a dexxer 100% of the time are stupid.  Sure, lock them into a 10x10 box and maybe you're right.  Take it into the context of the actual game we play (which is not your perfect vision of everyone stays on the same screen and dies with honor!) then you ruin this game considering how many stupid mods have been introduced to dexxers.  IE. splinters, max damage with max swing, double hit spells, endless mana pools, etc.  

@Bleakat this point i don't much care what is changed, but if anything is based on "if player has refinements" then a method of removing refinements and/or re-adding mage armor to armor should be implemented in tandem

Cetric said:

@ Bleakat this point i don't much care what is changed, but if anything is based on "if player has refinements" then a method of removing refinements and/or re-adding mage armor to armor should be implemented in tandem 

100%

LOLOLOL, its still astounds me that 7 pages into this thread people still say they cant pvp today without parry on a mage (cause apparently dexxers are too strong).   I have literally played a mage for over ten years without parry and never once had a issue fighting dexxer.   Sure I get ganked sometimes by multiple dexxers and die, but you cant use that as a reason to say dexxers are OP.  Any template that ganks you will kill except for maybe a tailor carpenter, LOL.   Splintering has had its nerf already which pushes them further behind the 8 ball in pvp.  Now its time for parry to get its nerf, its been long overdue since global loot came out.   Lastly if you need parry and/or evasion to survive on a mage in pvp then I suggest you go back to training on liches to get better. 

The_Higgs_1 said:

LOLOLOL, its still astounds me that 7 pages into this thread people still say they cant pvp today without parry on a mage (cause apparently dexxers are too strong).   I have literally played a mage for over ten years without parry and never once had a issue fighting dexxer.   Sure I get ganked sometimes by multiple dexxers and die, but you cant use that as a reason to say dexxers are OP.  Any template that ganks you will kill except for maybe a tailor carpenter, LOL.   Splintering has had its nerf already which pushes them further behind the 8 ball in pvp.  Now its time for parry to get its nerf, its been long overdue since global loot came out.   Lastly if you need parry and/or evasion to survive on a mage in pvp then I suggest you go back to training on liches to get better. 

Another person that it is hard to take seriously.  Someone that does't play because he cannot compete.  

You personally can't beat any decent dexer on Atlantic 1v1 on a mage without parry.   That is just a fact.  When I'd flag you on ATL you would either die in 30 seconds or run into your house and gen chat warrior.  Taking advice from you is very counterproductive.

What they did to splinter is pretty hard to call that a nerf, btw.  The powerful part of dexers swinging at max speed and still slowing you down was kept in.  

Devs:  Please don't use crazy theory for this update.  Listen to the people that know what they are talking about.  Go test fighting dexers on ATL vs mages with no parry BEFORE anything so you can see how bad it is.

Paithan said:

CovenantX said:

Seth said:

1)  Ofcourse I know dexxers don't tear up parry mages, this is what everyone is talking about.

CovenantX said:

   1)  That's how I know dexers don't "tear up" mages without Parry I play without Parry on Mages. 

   Does anyone that knows how to read want to debate about parry?

  

   

Paithan said:

The_Higgs_1 said:

LOLOLOL, its still astounds me that 7 pages into this thread people still say they cant pvp today without parry on a mage (cause apparently dexxers are too strong).   I have literally played a mage for over ten years without parry and never once had a issue fighting dexxer.   Sure I get ganked sometimes by multiple dexxers and die, but you cant use that as a reason to say dexxers are OP.  Any template that ganks you will kill except for maybe a tailor carpenter, LOL.   Splintering has had its nerf already which pushes them further behind the 8 ball in pvp.  Now its time for parry to get its nerf, its been long overdue since global loot came out.   Lastly if you need parry and/or evasion to survive on a mage in pvp then I suggest you go back to training on liches to get better. 

Another person that it is hard to take seriously.  Someone that does't play because he cannot compete.  

You personally can't beat any decent dexer on Atlantic 1v1 on a mage without parry.   That is just a fact.  When I'd flag you on ATL you would either die in 30 seconds or run into your house and gen chat warrior.  Taking advice from you is very counterproductive.

What they did to splinter is pretty hard to call that a nerf, btw.  The powerful part of dexers swinging at max speed and still slowing you down was kept in.  

Devs:  Please don't use crazy theory for this update.  Listen to the people that know what they are talking about.  Go test fighting dexers on ATL vs mages with no parry BEFORE anything so you can see how bad it is.

Cetric said:

@ Bleakat this point i don't much care what is changed, but if anything is based on "if player has refinements" then a method of removing refinements and/or re-adding mage armor to armor should be implemented in tandem 

That is right, they should stop nerfing and close this thread. A new thread about proper balance (tandem) actions, e.g. for the refinement and mage armor, etc is good.

The_Higgs_1 said:

LOLOLOL, its still astounds me that 7 pages into this thread people still say they cant pvp today without parry on a mage (cause apparently dexxers are too strong).   I have literally played a mage for over ten years without parry and never once had a issue fighting dexxer.  

This thread is closed. Thank you for all of the feedback.