Why a Rogue needs to use the Invisibility spell/potion rather then a Smoke Bomb ?

Stop no literally you have to stop when using a smoke bomb now I know getting revealed surrounded by monsters is terrifying but stop when using the bomb then move slowly (this is where never run toggle most needed)

Grimbeard said:

Stop no literally you have to stop when using a smoke bomb now I know getting revealed surrounded by monsters is terrifying but stop when using the bomb then move slowly (this is where never run toggle most needed)

You're a rogue not a racer? It's meant to be slow 

Grimbeard said:

You're a rogue not a racer? It's meant to be slow 

To clarify if you are stopping and using bomb there is zero need to cast a spell 

Grimbeard said:

To clarify if you are stopping and using bomb there is zero need to cast a spell 

Unfortunately your inability to play correctly doesn't merit changes to something that's working 

The thing is, and many will disagree with me on this. But smoke bombs aren't a rogue's resource, they're a ninja resource. I find invis spell much more useful because you can keep casting it when revealed repeatedly and still manage to get away without dying. I've cast it as many as 3 times before I managed to stay hidden and stealth away.

Petra_Fyde said:

The thing is, and many will disagree with me on this. But smoke bombs aren't a rogue's resource, they're a ninja resource. I find invis spell much more useful because you can keep casting it when revealed repeatedly and still manage to get away without dying. I've cast it as many as 3 times before I managed to stay hidden and stealth away.

This.

Petra_Fyde said:

The thing is, and many will disagree with me on this. But smoke bombs aren't a rogue's resource, they're a ninja resource. I find invis spell much more useful because you can keep casting it when revealed repeatedly and still manage to get away without dying. I've cast it as many as 3 times before I managed to stay hidden and stealth away.

Here's what Google sez, and it aligns with what most are saying. we don't need a change for Ninjer smoke bombs, Thieves don't use em. 

Google sez: Smoke bombs are far more strongly associated with ninjas than with thieves. Their use is deeply rooted in historical and pop culture depictions of ninjas as stealthy operatives who vanish in a puff of smoke.

Why Ninjas and Smoke Bombs Go Hand-in-Hand

• Historical usage: Real ninjas (shinobi) in feudal Japan used smoke bombs as diversionary tools to escape or confuse enemies. These were often crafted from hollowed-out eggshells filled with gunpowder and irritants.

• Tactical advantage: Ninjas used them both defensively (to flee when discovered) and offensively (to blind or disorient targets before striking).

• Psychological effect: The sudden disappearance in smoke contributed to the myth that ninjas had supernatural powers, reinforcing their mysterious image.

• Pop culture reinforcement: From anime like Naruto to video games like Ninja Gaiden, smoke bombs are a staple of the ninja toolkit, often shown as tools of stealth and surprise.

What About Thieves?

While thieves in fiction might occasionally use smoke bombs, especially in modern heist or spy stories, this is more of a borrowed trope from ninja lore. Thieves are more commonly associated with lockpicks, disguises, or sleight-of-hand than with theatrical escapes.

So if you're crafting a character or scene and want to lean into the classic imagery, smoke bombs scream "ninja"—not "thief."

LOL,

Grim had me foul, I really thought he was higher troll tier for a while. 
His problem is not because he's running instead of walking!

@popps Are you asking why you cannot use hiding skill after performing stuff like; stealing action/skill?
If there is a delay between a stealing action and the moment a thief can perfrom hide action, there is a VERY good reason.

Also, what Petra and i'm sure (maybe) the AI of Victim are saying make sense, but it's not the point he's making.. his problem is not with the maximize/enhance hiding; smoke bomb itself.. it's with hiding.

He just did not know what Smoke Bomb was really doing.. using his HIDING skill.
Personally, i'm a coward so indeed I have magery and smoke bomb is only for emergencies.

Edit: if u read Petra.. DROP THE PROTECTION! It's a crutch, for that build. You keep proving me right.

KroDuK said:

Edit: if u read Petra.. DROP THE PROTECTION! It's a crutch, for that build. You keep proving me right.

You play you, I'll play me. I don't like to fizzle when I want to cast invis. That way only leads to grey robes.

Petra_Fyde said:

I'll play me.

Elf imbuer style.

KroDuK said:

Petra_Fyde said:

I'll play me.

Elf imbuer style.

So now you have 2 active account to come tell us how terrible we and the game are ?

KroDuK said:

LOL,

Grim had me foul, I really thought he was higher troll tier for a while. 
His problem is not because he's running instead of walking!

@ popps Are you asking why you cannot use hiding skill after performing stuff like; stealing action/skill?
If there is a delay between a stealing action and the moment a thief can perfrom hide action, there is a VERY good reason.

Also, what Petra and i'm sure (maybe) the AI of Victim are saying make sense, but it's not the point he's making.. his problem is not with the maximize/enhance hiding; smoke bomb itself.. it's with hiding.

He just did not know what Smoke Bomb was really doing.. using his HIDING skill.
Personally, i'm a coward so indeed I have magery and smoke bomb is only for emergencies.

Edit: if u read Petra.. DROP THE PROTECTION! It's a crutch, for that build. You keep proving me right.

He just did not know what Smoke Bomb was really doing.. using his HIDING skill.

• Players can double-click a Smoke Bomb to make a normal Hiding skill check (treated as if they pressed the Hiding skill button), which if they succeed they will become Hidden, and then immediately make an additional free Stealth skill check to enter Stealth
• Players cannot use a Smoke Bomb immediately after Stealing from another player, and must wait the normal 10 seconds skill cooldown after stealing from a player before they may use a Smoke Bomb

Another case of being given the answer or answers and continues to argue can we please lock now ?

In before lock.

The irony of ninja being considered a magic Makes his point even more pointless 

Pawain said:

• Players can double-click a Smoke Bomb to make a normal Hiding skill check (treated as if they pressed the Hiding skill button), which if they succeed they will become Hidden, and then immediately make an additional free Stealth skill check to enter Stealth
• Players cannot use a Smoke Bomb immediately after Stealing from another player, and must wait the normal 10 seconds skill cooldown after stealing from a player before they may use a Smoke Bomb

Smoke bombs, allow players with at least 50 Ninjitsu skill to go into hiding instantly, even while in combat. Once the bomb has been activated, a Hiding skill check is performed as if the player were greater than 7 squares away from their opponent. Players with 100 skill in Hiding can detonate a bomb and go into hiding right next to an attacker.
Using a bomb counts as activating the Hiding skill and is thus affected by skill delay (around 10 seconds). If revealed, a player cannot use a bomb to hide again until the skill delay has elapsed.

They sound OP to me.  I guess you would have to understand game mechanics to get to the OP point.

Again ninja is magic rogues should not use magic at all but have the ability to use every kind if you are struggling use both bombs and invis pots problem solved again @Mariah let's lock this 

The issue here is not how smoke bombs work, 

They work like they have worked for years, you just want them to work a different way.

How can you say the issue is not how they work?  Bard skills have delays, other skills have delays.

That is inherently how they work.

Outside people wonder why popps is treated poorly this thread a perfect example a question asked answered and then the arguments begin but but but...

 You are entitled to your opinion.

Rorschach said:

 You are entitled to your opinion.

Gotta love trash talking mods..

Grimbeard said:

So now you have 2 active account to come tell us how terrible we and the game are ?

Wrong topic.. this should have been deleted by the moderation if they were not just doing moderation on people they dislike on their personal character/account.

PS: the picture u refer on the house placement topic was taken in 2024. You fool.

Grimbeard said:

The irony of ninja being considered a magic Makes his point even more pointless 

And your ROGUE/THIEF does not have Magery?
Every single point u did in this post was planly wrong or totally dumb.
You blaming him for your bad answersss??? shame on you McDougle.


The difference with your knowledge and popps knowledge is very THIN!!
Consider this knowing popps has trouble learning and the fact that he keeps trying to learn.. unlike you.. that knows VERY LITTLE and pretend you know more stuff than me for example.. wich is HILARIOUS.

Grimbeard said:

Rorschach said:

 You are entitled to your opinion.

Gotta love trash talking mods..

This is totally insane!! Start by deleting McDougle off topic and left field stuffssss.
Wich totally does not help the OP andmake things worst.
I would say his insult/bullying toward the OP.. but yeah, you are in on it, it seems... 

All you had to say here to Popps is.. to consider the PvP.. if there is a 10 sec delay between hide and steal..
Other than that POPPS demands make sense.. do u know why?? cuz of heresy like invisible potion (giving every template invisibility is sooooo bad on a MMO sandbox) same for stuff like apple to remove curse..
Him asking for easy mode smoke bomb 100% invis with an OP next to an attacker with no delay, make sense here.. cuz of the other heresy on this sandbox.


@popps Try this.. 4/6 casting ninja.. as soon u pop a smoke bomb u got a free stealth check u can legit teleport away from the heath zone, almost INSTANT.. drop the protection spell it's a crutch for elf imbuer.
PS: same after stealing.. u'll be 2/6 mage invis then 4/6 shadow jump away.
Easy to get 4/6 even on a thief ninja.. cuz of heresy BS added like recently free FasterCasting on a new item piece. (exclusive broken stuff)


TL;DR for popps to demand to drop the 10 sec delay between hide and stealing make so much sense.. if u consider stuff like invisible potion.. you guys consider this stupid.. as I consider the invisible pot stupid (easy option for untalented players)
I would say it's kinda dumb to have invisible potion and still having a 10 sec delay between hide and steal.. like the left hand did not know what the right hand was doing type of dumb.

Edit2: just in case.. MY solution wouldn't to remove the 10 sec delay but delete heresy like invisible potion and tell him to get good with magery and/or ninja thief or play another class.. like a tamer on trammel.

Back then u'd need to use magery SCROLLS if u wanted ninja on such build for a quick invisible, as a solo thief after stealing... till the moment u realised u'd be WAY better using poison and kill people instead stealing from them. 

Going to agree with Popps on this one.

People wanting to differentiate between rogues, and ninja's, mine/many have both sets of skills.

If the smoke bombs were not there to be used - why are they in the chests as re-stockable resources - having clearly stealthed up to them, then used detect hidden, and remove trap - then steal to get the item potentially. The entire point of a smoke-bomb was to give you one chance to hide whilst in combat mode - to then be stopped by a timer is quite laughable...

If the steal fails, you are on a timer, and cannot use the smoke-bomb - it actually does not make sense.

I would certainly argue a smoke bomb is more rogue-like than an alchemist or mages invisibility potion, although of course my rogue has magery as well...

And no differentiation has ever been made between Paladins, and Necromancers...
Or warriors, and spellcasters...
{Sampires...}.

Why go so hard on rogues/ninjas.

Not sure if I hate Cookie right now or myself.. good post.

KroDuK said:

Not sure if I hate Cookie right now or myself.. good post.

Absence makes the heart...

I mean, I totally disagree on the solution.. but it make sense there is something wrong here we can agree on that.

Personally the smoke bomb, I see them as a design for scout mostly PvP.. and to be honest a HUGE QoL for hiding.. missing those hiding cuz u don't cheat and do not count every single tile every time u needed to hide.. was SOOOO frustrating.

To me, I loved me some smoke bomb for emergencies reason.. PvE and PvP.. cuz yeah, if u'd knew how frustrating hiding was before SE.. I couldn't stand playing thief.


To me the heresy is still stuff like invis potion and all those OP gears..
You can have like 1,1k skill on your thief? back then to use ninja.. u had to make choice on your thief, personally I drop magery to use invis scrolls.. not long after I realised i could legit drop stealing for poison and have way more fun.. Wich explain why I had to train back stealing when I came back in 2024 (stealing on soulstone)


But let's agree.. it's kinda dumb to still limit the hiding skill since invisible potion exist (combine with magery) The delay on smoke bomb itself shouldn't be mess with but hiding on the other end... If u can lift the hiding limitation and keep the smoke bomb, do it.

If he cries about the tiles distance.. remind him of this post.
At the end, everything is streamline but nothing is changing.. wich is sad.

There used to not be a timer on smoke bombs.

Animal form stealth pvpers survived a lot more than they should so that's where the timer came in. This is one of those things where tram play got caught in the crossfire. 

I agree with the timer. Between mage-potion-turkey feathers-invis items-smoke bombs there's numerous ways to workaround and become a better player having to master the timing of it all.

Let's agree on something then for smoke bomb.. this delay is 100% needed in PvP, but other activities, like Cookie mentions.. the hiding delay could be lifted considering everything like Urge mentions.. except if u steal from players.

I'd still prefer my idea; the hard fun mode.. so do that but in same time cancel stuff like invis pot and harcap the suit total intensity points from/in felucca. 

Idk i'm torn.

I could make bank selling smoke bombs if the timer was removed. 

Playing a thief should be a mastered art. It shouldn't be easy or accessible to everyone just because of a few backpack items. 

I don't really count the invis pots because they have a slight delay where smoke bombs are instant. 

They will never unnerf ninja

Urge said:

Idk i'm torn.

I could make bank selling smoke bombs if the timer was removed. 

Playing a thief should be a mastered art. It shouldn't be easy or accessible to everyone just because of a few backpack items. 

I don't really count the invis pots because they have a slight delay where smoke bombs are instant. 

popps said:

Urge said:

Idk i'm torn.

I could make bank selling smoke bombs if the timer was removed. 

Playing a thief should be a mastered art. It shouldn't be easy or accessible to everyone just because of a few backpack items. 

I don't really count the invis pots because they have a slight delay where smoke bombs are instant. 

Well, if you mean stealing from players when you say thief, for that is necessary to be in the Thieves Guild...

It could be made so that there was no timer for smoke bombs "unless" the Rogue was to join the Thieves Guild and thus no longer be just a Rogue but become a rounded full Thief... in that case, the smoke bomb timer would apply...

Smoke bombs are for ninja not rogue 

Not even close to what i meant.

Basically that was a polite way of saying learn to play. 

Urge said:

Not even close to what i meant.

Basically that was a polite way of saying learn to play. 

I think hidden ambushers with detect hide, go beyond the realms of learn to play.

It is RNG. So it would be good to have a counter.

And playing in heavy mobs for stealing - easy to say, ok, I'll only ever go to the quiet places, but that defeats the point.

I get that but playing a thief should take time patience and skill. I am 1000% against making changes to make this a new farming temp just because it's now profitable. 

Now if you were to suggest an adjustment to mob detect...have at that. 

Urge said:

I get that but playing a thief should take time patience and skill. I am 1000% against making changes to make this a new farming temp just because it's now profitable. 

Now if you were to suggest an adjustment to mob detect...have at that. 

I do not have time or patience... 🙂
I want to have fun, the rogue concept has really developed over the last few years, and has become a lot of fun. I'd pretty much call it a finished product in terms of template.
I'm all for opening up templates, especially the more unique ones, and the result has been very popular.

Now for the Mages. 🙂

I think a lot of people started playing rogues last event in the safety of the city and have no clue on how to play now that easy mode is off

popps said:

It could be made so that there was no timer for smoke bombs "unless" the Rogue was to join the Thieves Guild and thus no longer be just a Rogue but become a rounded full Thief... in that case, the smoke bomb timer would apply...

It would be a brilliant idea to fix your actual wtf.. but after that I would find my thief bland.. like I find my tamer bland. If they do that for hiding tho (not smoke bomb).. it could streamline the wtf.

Solution wise I align with Urge, but I'd make it even more skilled personally.. by deleting stuff for felucca.. way less automation required.

Grimbeard said:

I think a lot of people started playing rogues last event in the safety of the city and have no clue on how to play now that easy mode is off

lol!

Some people have never stalked an entire champ spawn at a chance for a powerscroll and it shows. 

Urge said:

Grimbeard said:

I think a lot of people started playing rogues last event in the safety of the city and have no clue on how to play now that easy mode is off

lol!

Some people have never stalked an entire champ spawn at a chance for a powerscroll and it shows. 

I have eaten so many ps right before death...

Grimbeard said:

I have eaten so many ps right before death...

He would indeed, start eating those PS as soon the first poisoned shuriken would land on him; waving the white flag.. In fact this the main reason if today he loves fishing soo much.. *raising the white flag* 

KroDuK said:

Grimbeard said:

I have eaten so many ps right before death...

He would indeed, start eating those PS as soon the first poisoned shuriken would land on him; waving the white flag.. In fact this the main reason if today he loves fishing soo much.. *raising the white flag* 

FL killed me a lot 

A game like Albion did something clever.. some weakling would start trashing their inventory, the fix was; some valuable stuff within the last 120seconds before getting killed would be restored.
Risk vs Reward while limiting the anti play.

Being that kind of bad manner would get you a perma kill on sight sentences from my part. On all your characters.. but we both know it's all crap, made up McDougle story.

Shadow Strike. Have 70+ Fencing, and carry a high HCI dagger. Steal, equip the dagger then immediately stab something with Shadow Strike, and you're hidden again. Just make sure you're not in a Form so you can activate Shadow Strike after the steal attempt.

Good call, personally back then u needed tactic to perform special attack and me 2024 thief was using a shitty mage weapon:
                                                        
But yeah, no special attack with mage weapon

Edit: this weapon tho would do that job.. I had this when I drop stealing for poison:
                                                        
Would also help for my 4/6 ninja.

Popps clearly has ninja on this toon based on his other thread complaining about hitting a animal form macro.... since you are a ninja you can use other ninja spells like mirror image to deflect attacks.

I'm literally doing this on my thief that has zero remove trap. I stealth around in animal form (white tiger for extra DCI & speed) then when I find a sparkle I change into human form while picking the lock then stealth back a few tiles while casting mirror image. Then I cast telekinesis 3 times (2/6 casting) AND cast invis usually without getting hit. If I do end up getting hit (mirror images usually absorb all the hits and stop the attack) and my spell is interrupted, that's when I pop a smoke bomb. I'd say 90% of the time I don't need to move or run away but on the off chances I get revealed I can either cast invis again because almost nothing is aggro'ed on me.

The only time you should actually be unhidden (99% of the time) is when attempting to steal an item from the chest...in that instance you  pre-cast mirror images to absorb hits... or you would need to use an invis potion...or turkey feathers...or invis spell (you can easily get like +25 magery with a simple equip spellbook & shield)...or use a shadow strike weapon as someone else mentioned... the possibilities are pretty large. 

TL:DR - There isn't anything wrong with hiding/ninja/thief... some people just need to learn to play the mechanics.

keven2002 said:

There isn't anything wrong with hiding/ninja/thief... some people just need to learn to play the mechanics.

keven2002 said:

There isn't anything wrong with hiding/ninja/thief... some people just need to learn to play the mechanics.

keven2002 said:

There isn't anything wrong with hiding/ninja/thief... some people just need to learn to play the mechanics.

This can't be said enough.

KroDuK said:

Good call, personally back then u needed tactic to perform special attack and me 2024 thief was using a shitty mage weapon:
                                                        
But yeah, no special attack with mage weapon

Edit: this weapon tho would do that job.. I had this when I drop stealing for poison:
                                                        
Would also help for my 4/6 ninja.

Pretty sure there are some old invasion weps around too that can have up to 30% HCI on them. A Dagger or Assassin Spike with that would be perfect if you can't fit HCI anywhere on suit.

Why am I not surprised.. such a shame.
Hopefully EA make a move before 2025 ends..
Cancel NL and temporary events, bring back risk vs reward, good old MF run and give us a legit shard + a good CC.
PS: still waiting on part 1 of the good CC that was supposed to land summer 2025.