Shadowguard changes

I brought this up on another discussion website and it was suggested that I post here.  Why have changes been made to the Fountain and Belfry?  You now have to use all 4 drains or you won't get credit for the Fountain.  When soloing the Fountain, the spawn is so horribly low that this change has made it impossible to finish the room unless you're fortunate enough to have all 4 drains close to the spigots.  In the Belfry, I have tried my cu sidhe and frost dragon.  Neither of them can stay on the tower with the Greater Dragon.  I know our pets have always been pushed off but now, our characters are being pushed off too even though the GD is focused on our pets.  Are these changes permanent?  Were they done in error?  If they are permanent, I think that was a big mistake and Shadowguard will go the way of Doom.  So sad to see.  Any feedback would be appreciated.

First...the way the fountain was SUPPOSED to work is that you were to use all 4 drains...and it's not supposed to be a solo encounter,..yeah I know..I can't get people to help me, my friends are never on....still not supposed to be a solo encounter. Yes I have done that before...go in, collect pieces for about 10 minutes, go back out and back in and use those pieces....that's kinda not how it works though lol.

As for the belfry...pets have always been pushed off the platform, as far as players being pushed off now? While I hope that's not intended, because it is a pain in the rear lol, it's really not that bad, killing the drakes is fairly easy and that's how the room was intended to work in the first place, so technically being able to get your flying pets up there without having to kill drakes is a bug, I know it's just using game mechanics and sure it makes it a lot easier to NOT have to kill the drakes but now I feel with these changes it's working the way it's always supposed to...since Shadowguard is Kyronix's baby maybe he can chime in 🙂

Larisa said:

First...the way the fountain was SUPPOSED to work is that you were to use all 4 drains...and it's not supposed to be a solo encounter,..yeah I know..I can't get people to help me, my friends are never on....still not supposed to be a solo encounter. Yes I have done that before...go in, collect pieces for about 10 minutes, go back out and back in and use those pieces....that's kinda not how it works though lol.

As for the belfry...pets have always been pushed off the platform, as far as players being pushed off now? While I hope that's not intended, because it is a pain in the rear lol, it's really not that bad, killing the drakes is fairly easy and that's how the room was intended to work in the first place, so technically being able to get your flying pets up there without having to kill drakes is a bug, I know it's just using game mechanics and sure it makes it a lot easier to NOT have to kill the drakes but now I feel with these changes it's working the way it's always supposed to...since Shadowguard is Kyronix's baby maybe he can chime in 🙂

Just to point out your entire post does nothing to refute the OP.  Regardless of how it was “supposed to be”, these changes do not improve the encounter... they just make it more annoying.

I've never liked how the belfry worked at all. The fact that the bell will spawn drakes even on people who are on the tower is ridiculous (because what if one of those drakes drop the wing? Makes no sense). It might make more sense if the wing brought the whole party up, or, if the party could continue fighting drakes on the ground while the party on the tower remains unaffected by the drake spawns. Then you could have a continuous stream of people trying to get up the tower - but when the drakes spawn for the people already on the tower, there exists a notion that the tower has to be loaded with certain players (while others stay grounded), and all the wing searching and drake killing has to be carefully planned out, with players already loaded on the tower unable to kill the drakes that spawn around them (which could contain the wings).

Ive been farming the roof non stop in preparation that I won't really be able to do it again next week unless some people stumble online.  The room changes would just be the cherry on top.  Will be searching for stuff to do next week, Im sure my wife will be happy at least.

This has very little to do with me. 

I mentioned in on one of my bug posts an issue with the belfry just as an example, however rather than address the issue as a whole, just the example with the belfry has been addressed in an obscure way that was not my proposed solution. So I’m washing my hands of this one.

https://forum.uo.com/discussion/227/16-bugs-to-be-fixed-for-publish-100-please#latest

How long has Shadowguard been out?

Years?  (I honestly don't know)

Why these changes and why now?

And yes, this will just be another version of Doom.  Why instead of killing encounters and slapping hasty, dumb, non-player-friendly fixes on these things don't you guys at Broadsword take some time and really think these encounters out?

I honestly question your actual game design chops.  Sometimes you hit the nail on the head, and sometimes you just flail about wildly with these things.

hold on a second. 

Nobody has actiallly sad so. But I’m getting the overall feel that some people are maybe opposed to the changes. Can someone explain why?

Let us talk about the belfry. The challenge is and always has been to ring the bell, kill the drakes, get feather, attack dragon until pushed off, rinse and repeat. What does it matter that you the pet owner get pushed off also?? What does it change for you please? 

How exactly were you killing the boss before? Are you seriously trying to tell me, that instead of playing the game as intended, you were getting on the platform and when your pet got pushed off, you logged out and back in or something to get your pet back up onto the platform by abusing auto pet log out?

"" Sometimes you hit the nail on the head""

Pappy always said, "Even the blind hog finds an acorn occasionally"

Mervyn said:

hold on a second. 

Nobody has actiallly sad so. But I’m getting the overall feel that some people are maybe opposed to the changes. Can someone explain why?

Let us talk about the belfry. The challenge is and always has been to ring the bell, kill the drakes, get feather, attack dragon until pushed off, rinse and repeat. What does it matter that you the pet owner get pushed off also?? What does it change for you please? 

How exactly were you killing the boss before? Are you seriously trying to tell me, that instead of playing the game as intended, you were getting on the platform and when your pet got pushed off, you logged out and back in or something to get your pet back up onto the platform by abusing auto pet log out?

NO....actually if you have a flying pet you can get it to fly up there without you ever having to kill a drake 🙂

Being pushed off is not a big deal....BUT having your pet get stuck when it's pushed off and then having it glitch out IS a big deal....seems to be just with non-flying pets...so far as our testing as confirmed.

If you’re using flying pets then nothing has changed. 

Yeah it has changed because pre-publish we went in with all Cu's, killed the drakes and stood on the platform and not one person got pushed off only pets so the character getting pushed off is new..as is the pet getting pushed off and stuck is new.

Its no secret that myself and Kyronix have an ongoing history of disagreements. I’m afraid I feel I should again voice my dissatisfaction here.

So, you’ll see this change to the belfry has probably come from what I mentioned in this thread:

https://forum.uo.com/discussion/227/16-bugs-to-be-fixed-for-publish-100-please#latest

And basically for years I’ve been campaigning on this issue about auto pet logout being abused and for years Kyronix has defaulted to “not a bug” response (which per chance happens to be the response that requires the least amount of work to do)

the only reason I mentioned the belfry in my bug post was because I was aware that Kyronix designed shadowguard (and it is a very good encounter, credit where credit is due). I mentioned specifically the belfry as Kyronix would have more of an understanding of how the game is supposed to work (since he designed it) and so rather than accept that auto pet log out is not quite “working as intended” he just changes this one specific example so as to not be affected by auto pet logout...

What about all of the others? Such as summoning pets to ilshenar? maybe when you log out in ilshenar with a pet he will change it so yoi get nudged all the way back to the moongate....

The thing is..I WAS able to log out to retrieve my pet...that worked fine...as intended 🙂 BUT now it won't follow me....it will stop and stay but won't follow or come.

Larisa said:

The thing is..I WAS able to log out to retrieve my pet...that worked fine...as intended 🙂 BUT now it won't follow me....it will stop and stay but won't follow or come.

That is a bug then that needs to be addressed. 

Also I have to ask, why bother making these changes yet still allow fruit eating pets to consume the orchard apples to prevent spawn appearing? 

Yes...I really wouldn't be upset if they stopped allowing the auto-pet log out....though it has been really handy! I can manage without it, you just get so used to using it! It would take some adjusting for sure but it wouldn't really effect my game play too much.

Larisa said:

Yes...I really wouldn't be upset if they stopped allowing the auto-pet log out....though it has been really handy! I can manage without it, you just get so used to using it! It would take some adjusting for sure but it wouldn't really effect my game play too much.

Then you dont do spawns. Pets wonder all over the place and go 2 screens away in whatever direction.  If pets would follow commands then maybe.  Come to LS Ill show you how horrible the pet AI is.  Or grab any pet and dont mount it and run a couple of laps around Luna your pet will get stuck in seconds.  Run through Shame with a pet in tow.

Pawain said:

Larisa said:

Yes...I really wouldn't be upset if they stopped allowing the auto-pet log out....though it has been really handy! I can manage without it, you just get so used to using it! It would take some adjusting for sure but it wouldn't really effect my game play too much.

Then you dont do spawns. Pets wonder all over the place and go 2 screens away in whatever direction.  If pets would follow commands then maybe.  Come to LS Ill show you how horrible the pet AI is.  Or grab any pet and dont mount it and run a couple of laps around Luna your pet will get stuck in seconds.  Run through Shame with a pet in tow.

Then what you’re requesting is an improvement to pet pathfinding. Nothing to do with auto logout.

I do not post here to abolish the scriptures, but to fulfill them.

You post to abolish fun so the numbers will drop and you can get your Fel shard built for the 10 players left.

Mervyn said:

hold on a second. 

Nobody has actiallly sad so. But I’m getting the overall feel that some people are maybe opposed to the changes. Can someone explain why?

"Some prople?!"
The reason pretty much everyone is opposed to these changes because they take an already incredibly grindy system and make it more so. Grind is not fun. Grind makes people not want to log in. There should be less of it, not more.

Pawain said:

You post to abolish fun so the numbers will drop and you can get your Fel shard built for the 10 players left.

I usually just get the feel of someone whom enjoy's flamebaiting.  Kinda just feel bad for him.

Pawain said:

Larisa said:

Yes...I really wouldn't be upset if they stopped allowing the auto-pet log out....though it has been really handy! I can manage without it, you just get so used to using it! It would take some adjusting for sure but it wouldn't really effect my game play too much.

Then you dont do spawns. Pets wonder all over the place and go 2 screens away in whatever direction.  If pets would follow commands then maybe.  Come to LS Ill show you how horrible the pet AI is.  Or grab any pet and dont mount it and run a couple of laps around Luna your pet will get stuck in seconds.  Run through Shame with a pet in tow.

NO I don't do spawns on a TAMER...I do spawns on my Sampire..I stopped spawning on a tamer ages ago....and if your pet gets stuck...go back and get it....if it gets hung up on a corner..go back and get it! Like doing Andro's and trying to get those darn centaurs to follow you down to him..that's fun! LOL I honestly don't mind it..

Sliss said:

"Some prople?!"
The reason pretty much everyone is opposed to these changes because they take an already incredibly grindy system and make it more so. Grind is not fun. Grind makes people not want to log in. There should be less of it, not more.

Exactly. Grinds aren't fun. 

The Belfry is already a tremendously boring encounter. It doesn't need to be more so. (Tedium disguised as complexity doesn't make anything less boring)

But you haven’t explained why or how it’s more of a grind? Again, please explain what difference this has made. How is it harder now? What did you do before that you can’t do now?

Pawain said:

You post to abolish fun so the numbers will drop and you can get your Fel shard built for the 10 players left.

Amen to that! 

Auto stable is not a bug, it was put in to avoid people losing their pets when they lost connection for whatever reason. That's not just Kyronix's opinion, it's the TEAM's stand on the question, blaming Kyronix is just 'shooting the messenger'.  However, it is widely abused.  I, personally, would be quite happy if the pet was auto stabled and stayed there, meaning that when you logged in you'd have to go to the stable and fetch it. But then my character is a peace tamer, I don't use it to get my pets to out of the way places, I use the crystals/jawbone or I walk using 'follow me' and area peace. 

On the fountain, the difference in spawn between one person trying to do it and two is way more than double. If the spawn for one was increased just a bit (25%?) it would make it more possible for someone who can't find a partner when needed.  Less RNG and more even percentages on the drops would help too. Far too often you end up with a bag full of 'wrong' corners and desperately hoping for the one you need to fall before the timer runs out.

Sliss said:

Mervyn said:

hold on a second. 

Nobody has actiallly sad so. But I’m getting the overall feel that some people are maybe opposed to the changes. Can someone explain why?

"Some prople?!"
The reason pretty much everyone is opposed to these changes because they take an already incredibly grindy system and make it more so. Grind is not fun. Grind makes people not want to log in. There should be less of it, not more.

Petra_Fyde said:

On the fountain, the difference in spawn between one person trying to do it and two is way more than double. If the spawn for one was increased just a bit (25%?) it would make it more possible for someone who can't find a partner when needed.  Less RNG and more even percentages on the drops would help too. Far too often you end up with a bag full of 'wrong' corners and desperately hoping for the one you need to fall before the timer runs out.

Yeah by comparison the armory isn't nearly as bad when you bring more people.  I usually 3 client the armory but never more than two on the fountain, from two to 3 is really dramatic.  And even when Im playing with other people we will still split the fountain to groups of two unless we are just going in for pieces.

Petra_Fyde said:

Auto stable is not a bug, it was put in to avoid people losing their pets when they lost connection for whatever reason. That's not just Kyronix's opinion, it's the TEAM's stand on the question, blaming Kyronix is just 'shooting the messenger'.  However, it is widely abused.  I, personally, would be quite happy if the pet was auto stabled and stayed there, meaning that when you logged in you'd have to go to the stable and fetch it. 

So any random lost connection basically ends whatever you happened to be doing if you are playing a tamer so you can run back to town and get your pet.  Maybe not a big deal if your play time consists of sitting at Luna bank, but utterly horrible if your out actually playing the game, particularly in a keyed encounter.

It's stupid comments like these that get these pancaked ideas put into the game.

Merus said:

Petra_Fyde said:

Auto stable is not a bug, it was put in to avoid people losing their pets when they lost connection for whatever reason. That's not just Kyronix's opinion, it's the TEAM's stand on the question, blaming Kyronix is just 'shooting the messenger'.  However, it is widely abused.  I, personally, would be quite happy if the pet was auto stabled and stayed there, meaning that when you logged in you'd have to go to the stable and fetch it. 

So any random lost connection basically ends whatever you happened to be doing if you are playing a tamer so you can run back to town and get your pet.  Maybe not a big deal if your play time consists of sitting at Luna bank, but utterly horrible if your out actually playing the game, particularly in a keyed encounter.

It's stupid comments like these that get these pancaked ideas put into the game.

 One way to avoid that problem is to get rid of the stupid keys, and just let us play the game without all the grind!

Merus said:

Petra_Fyde said:

Auto stable is not a bug, it was put in to avoid people losing their pets when they lost connection for whatever reason. That's not just Kyronix's opinion, it's the TEAM's stand on the question, blaming Kyronix is just 'shooting the messenger'.  However, it is widely abused.  I, personally, would be quite happy if the pet was auto stabled and stayed there, meaning that when you logged in you'd have to go to the stable and fetch it. 

So any random lost connection basically ends whatever you happened to be doing if you are playing a tamer so you can run back to town and get your pet.  Maybe not a big deal if your play time consists of sitting at Luna bank, but utterly horrible if your out actually playing the game, particularly in a keyed encounter.

It's stupid comments like these that get these pancaked ideas put into the game.

Hello @merus did you read the link about the proposed auto pet log out fixes?

https://forum.uo.com/discussion/227/16-bugs-to-be-fixed-for-publish-100-please#latest



I encourage you to do so. As contrary to your scenario. The pet would actually remain in game for 5 mins and would continue to defend you. And if you reconnected before your player was fully logged out, you would not need to retrieve your pet from the stables. The proposed changes to auto pet log out actually help tamers, as they make characters with veterinary more desirable and are more friendly vs genuine disconnects.

Merus said:

Petra_Fyde said:

Auto stable is not a bug, it was put in to avoid people losing their pets when they lost connection for whatever reason. That's not just Kyronix's opinion, it's the TEAM's stand on the question, blaming Kyronix is just 'shooting the messenger'.  However, it is widely abused.  I, personally, would be quite happy if the pet was auto stabled and stayed there, meaning that when you logged in you'd have to go to the stable and fetch it. 

So any random lost connection basically ends whatever you happened to be doing if you are playing a tamer so you can run back to town and get your pet.  Maybe not a big deal if your play time consists of sitting at Luna bank, but utterly horrible if your out actually playing the game, particularly in a keyed encounter.

It's stupid comments like these that get these pancaked ideas put into the game.

Well I did say it was my personal feeling - I lose con seldom, and when I do 9 times out of 10 when I get back in game I'm dead and get a 'pet cannot be returned to you' message so the pet's staying in the stable anyway. No difference.  Just FYI - I avoid Luna unless someone asks me to go there to trade. I spend the vast majority of my game time far away from towns and houses.

I’m sorry but until you are ready to suggest that every other class of characters armor/weapons revert to a characters bank box every time they log in, suggesting it for tamers primary armor/weapon is ridiculous.

The ONLY time pet auto stabling has any impact on actual game play is during PvP, which is very simple to fix.  Pet auto stable should be tied to the PvP aggressor flag.  Worrying about how someone might move their pets from A to B in PvM is a sad endeavor.

Merus said:

I’m sorry but until you are ready to suggest that every other class of characters armor/weapons revert to a characters bank box every time they log in, suggesting it for tamers primary armor/weapon is ridiculous.

The ONLY time pet auto stabling has any impact on actual game play is during PvP, which is very simple to fix.  Pet auto stable should be tied to the PvP aggressor flag.  Worrying about how someone might move their pets from A to B in PvM is a sad endeavor.

The same thing could be said by how did the roof bugs affect his life?  

@Uriah_Heep hehe nice try, I wish!!! Those keys are such a damn nuisance, hours to get keys and minutes to kill the Boss, where is the logic?

Merus said:

Petra_Fyde said:

Auto stable is not a bug, it was put in to avoid people losing their pets when they lost connection for whatever reason. That's not just Kyronix's opinion, it's the TEAM's stand on the question, blaming Kyronix is just 'shooting the messenger'.  However, it is widely abused.  I, personally, would be quite happy if the pet was auto stabled and stayed there, meaning that when you logged in you'd have to go to the stable and fetch it. 

So any random lost connection basically ends whatever you happened to be doing if you are playing a tamer so you can run back to town and get your pet.  Maybe not a big deal if your play time consists of sitting at Luna bank, but utterly horrible if your out actually playing the game, particularly in a keyed encounter.

It's stupid comments like these that get these pancaked ideas put into the game.

Spend 30 mins getting to the Mob and then you are stuck there with no pet.  80% of the places that are difficult cant use pet balls.  Let gates and pet balls work everywhere and then we can discuss it.

I dont know why but I disconnect in the abyss often.  The account thats there disconnects and the others stay on.  I often yell, "Allen got disconnected" in chat.  Happens to any of the accounts.  We do Medusa a lot.  

Okay, as for why you cannot use pet balls or gate in certain areas such as ilshenar, I do not know. They just decided this is how they wanted it to be... im sure they had their reasons to limit some areas to hard to reach. But the fact that they specifically disabled use of pet balls and gates, they for sure did it for one reason. To stop people from being able to summon their pets there. Yet people bypass it with auto pet log out. 

So how this is “working as intended” makes 0 sense.

Merus said:

Petra_Fyde said:

Auto stable is not a bug, it was put in to avoid people losing their pets when they lost connection for whatever reason. That's not just Kyronix's opinion, it's the TEAM's stand on the question, blaming Kyronix is just 'shooting the messenger'.  However, it is widely abused.  I, personally, would be quite happy if the pet was auto stabled and stayed there, meaning that when you logged in you'd have to go to the stable and fetch it. 

So any random lost connection basically ends whatever you happened to be doing if you are playing a tamer so you can run back to town and get your pet.  Maybe not a big deal if your play time consists of sitting at Luna bank, but utterly horrible if your out actually playing the game, particularly in a keyed encounter.

It's stupid comments like these that get these pancaked ideas put into the game.

Exactly. Especially considering that every template other than a tamer will be able to pick up exactly where they left off.

Good point @sliss i’m glad someone at least is agreeing with me that archers and warriors continue to swing and attack and defend when they log out/con loss/power outage/crash, mages continue to wrestle and parry. Yet tamers are penalised because their pet disappears insta on crash. It is not fair, the pet should continue to do whatever it is doing until at least your char logs out. 

Mervyn said:

Good point @ sliss i’m glad someone at least is agreeing with me that archers and warriors continue to swing and attack and defend when they log out/con loss/power outage/crash, mages continue to wrestle and parry. Yet tamers are penalised because their pet disappears insta on crash. It is not fair, the pet should continue to do whatever it is doing until at least your char logs out. 

Let's not twist my words into something they are not. I was not agreeing with you on this nor pretty much on any other complaint of yours that I saw. 

Reywind said:

So this thread about changes to shadowguard is quickly getting derailed into a thread about auto stabling pets when you log out?

I would like to bring the discussion back to the original topic, which is the new changes to Shadowguard. These changes basically only affect tamers, as sampires can still solo the entire encounter. Was the whole point of these changes to make Shadowguard no longer viable for anyone besides sampires, like with doom? Are these changes to deter AFK scripting and multiboxing? Why can't that be enforced through GMs and the reporting system, rather than permanently ruining an encounter for everyone?

Nope the Devs did not know about it until @mervyn brought it up.  His one man crusade to eliminate Tram to make the game Fel only.  Step 1.  Ruin pets.

So they spent their time on the bug fix publish fixing something that the majority of players did not consider a bug.

Pawain said:

Reywind said:

So this thread about changes to shadowguard is quickly getting derailed into a thread about auto stabling pets when you log out?

I would like to bring the discussion back to the original topic, which is the new changes to Shadowguard. These changes basically only affect tamers, as sampires can still solo the entire encounter. Was the whole point of these changes to make Shadowguard no longer viable for anyone besides sampires, like with doom? Are these changes to deter AFK scripting and multiboxing? Why can't that be enforced through GMs and the reporting system, rather than permanently ruining an encounter for everyone?

Nope the Devs did not know about it until @ mervyn brought it up.  His one man crusade to eliminate Tram to make the game Fel only.  Step 1.  Ruin pets.

So they spent their time on the bug fix publish fixing something that the majority of players did not consider a bug.

Pawain said:

Nope the Devs did not know about it until @ mervyn brought it up

Reywind said:

So this thread about changes to shadowguard is quickly getting derailed into a thread about auto stabling pets when you log out?

I would like to bring the discussion back to the original topic, which is the new changes to Shadowguard. These changes basically only affect tamers, as sampires can still solo the entire encounter. Was the whole point of these changes to make Shadowguard no longer viable for anyone besides sampires, like with doom? Are these changes to deter AFK scripting and multiboxing? Why can't that be enforced through GMs and the reporting system, rather than permanently ruining an encounter for everyone?

I think you’ll find, this is what the original post is about, the belfry pushing the tamer off, which was only introduced a a way of countering logging out and in to move your pet up the top without having to get another feather. 

The original post is not about fiendish ai calling. 

Sliss said:

Mervyn said:

Good point @ sliss i’m glad someone at least is agreeing with me that archers and warriors continue to swing and attack and defend when they log out/con loss/power outage/crash, mages continue to wrestle and parry. Yet tamers are penalised because their pet disappears insta on crash. It is not fair, the pet should continue to do whatever it is doing until at least your char logs out. 

Let's not twist my words into something they are not. I was not agreeing with you on this nor pretty much on any other complaint of yours that I saw.

But you wrote “Exactly. Especially considering that every template other than a tamer will be able to pick up exactly where they left off.”
A tamer logs in dead because whatever was aggressing the pet aggresses the tamer after a crash. So you did agree with me whether you like it or not.

Whilst I get that Shadowguard changes are technically bug fixes, and it is now coming back to what it should be, they need to think about what is fun for a player also.

They are caught in a tough place I'll give them that, because Trammel is easy-mode, and they can't make it too easy or people farm end-game items like water, but they are taking the fun out to compensate it feels like.

As Mervyn said, none of this bothers me anymore. I've quit production shards and now play on Siege only. I'm tired of the unbalanced pvp (dismount), broken economy, over itemisation, unequal facets (Trammel too easy-mode), and class balance (Sampires dominate all).

Most players do not like playing Sampires. They like Tamers, Mages, Pure Warriors, Craftsmen, Rogues, T Hunters, Bards - anything except Sampire. To have completely designed production shards around Sampires is just completely opposite to what the game is meant to be.

I can't get into Shadowguard too much, because in itself, it is not the issue, it's just another symptom. It will go the way of Doom, and pretty much all other content, because the developers focus is in the wrong direction.

I don't really care anymore, I used to for the last two years, come and join me on Siege tbh, is an option for any of you who want a far more simple, fun game, where none of this really matters.

Welcome to Sampires Online! 
For those of us that refuse to make a Sampire things are going downhill fast. 

I think you guys are missing the point.. shadowguard was meant to be a challenging encounter from the beginning.. thats why the loot and items it drops are so crazily strong in comparison to the rest of the game. The ONLY reason it was easy, is because you guys found ways to break and/or exploit every room. Instead of being mad about bug fixes you should be thankful you arent getting ban for intentionally exploiting game mechanics.

Just in case all that sounds negative and jaded, which it possibly is!

I still love the game itself, and am certainly having a ton of fun doing my thing on Siege.

To clarify a positive course of action I think the developers should be focusing on, in case I haven't made this very clear before........

I think they should be focusing on devolving Sampires, and opening the game out to far more classes, to allow them to do more content.

This course of action is just so obvious, I don't get why they don't see it, or are not implementing things in this direction.

I would actually be interested to hear their current opinion or thinking on this area.

The last time I saw a comment from one of the Devs, was something like - "they do not even see the issue and believe it is all in the right place..."

I was pretty gobsmacked at this. I'd be interested to hear if this is still their viewpoint?

Because nerfing something is not how you increase fun. Instead you make aweful classes better. Like they have been doing. [Except in the case of poisoning, which is stupidly overtuned.]

Pawain said:

Reywind said:

So this thread about changes to shadowguard is quickly getting derailed into a thread about auto stabling pets when you log out?

I would like to bring the discussion back to the original topic, which is the new changes to Shadowguard. These changes basically only affect tamers, as sampires can still solo the entire encounter. Was the whole point of these changes to make Shadowguard no longer viable for anyone besides sampires, like with doom? Are these changes to deter AFK scripting and multiboxing? Why can't that be enforced through GMs and the reporting system, rather than permanently ruining an encounter for everyone?

Nope the Devs did not know about it until @ mervyn brought it up.  His one man crusade to eliminate Tram to make the game Fel only.  Step 1.  Ruin pets.

So they spent their time on the bug fix publish fixing something that the majority of players did not consider a bug.

This is pretty slanderous. 


I think you’ll find my blue is a tamer, and every bug report I post is simply to better the game for everyone.

As for how much influence I have over the development team, I’m one of the oldest players, and have a clean sheet, no illigal programs or abuse given to other players. Also, people actually come to me with their issues as they’re aware I’m able to post factually and logically to explain the problems. So they’re not all “my” bug fixes. And I can tell you I’ve had my fair share of arguments with developers. But they are mostly reasonable people who listen to reasonable logic. 

Nikard said:

I think you guys are missing the point.. shadowguard was meant to be a challenging encounter from the beginning.. thats why the loot and items it drops are so crazily strong in comparison to the rest of the game. The ONLY reason it was easy, is because you guys found ways to break and/or exploit every room. Instead of being mad about bug fixes you should be thankful you arent getting ban for intentionally exploiting game mechanics.

Something most people seem to keep overlooking is the fact that if it was like this for a month or so after release and then fixed in this manner, fine. There would have been a limited amount of people who could have "exploited" Shadowguard and the user base would have remained roughly the same during that time. 

Instead, it's been this way for YEARS and the majority of people who have been playing throughout that period of time have everything they could ever want as far as legendary gear goes. So now they decide to nerf Shadowguard shortly after they lure a bunch of new/returning players to UO? Does this hurt the rich/existing players? Not really. For the most part they're geared. This hurts the new/returning players an extensive amount.

As a returning player, I found the gear discrepancy almost too much to bear. However, I talked myself past that and eventually got a pet good enough to do roof so I can get some gear remotely close to what most players have. Three weeks of doing roof on the same level as most players have for years and now they nerf it.

Good call. Let's take another stab at new and returning players. Lets make the path of entry even harder and more annoying. This is a pretty dumb change this late in the game and is just going to chase additional people away. Being a part of a handful of returning players who are pretty done right now and about to call it quits, I don't have high hopes for the future of UO if they continue to make contradicting decisions like this in the future.

Kel said:

Nikard said:

I think you guys are missing the point.. shadowguard was meant to be a challenging encounter from the beginning.. thats why the loot and items it drops are so crazily strong in comparison to the rest of the game. The ONLY reason it was easy, is because you guys found ways to break and/or exploit every room. Instead of being mad about bug fixes you should be thankful you arent getting ban for intentionally exploiting game mechanics.

Something most people seem to keep overlooking is the fact that if it was like this for a month or so after release and then fixed in this manner, fine. There would have been a limited amount of people who could have "exploited" Shadowguard and the user base would have remained roughly the same during that time. 

Instead, it's been this way for YEARS and the majority of people who have been playing throughout that period of time have everything they could ever want as far as legendary gear goes. So now they decide to nerf Shadowguard shortly after they lure a bunch of new/returning players to UO? Does this hurt the rich/existing players? Not really. For the most part they're geared. This hurts the new/returning players an extensive amount.

As a returning player, I found the gear discrepancy almost too much to bear. However, I talked myself past that and eventually got a pet good enough to do roof so I can get some gear remotely close to what most players have. Three weeks of doing roof on the same level as most players have for years and now they nerf it.

Good call. Let's take another stab at new and returning players. Lets make the path of entry even harder and more annoying. This is a pretty dumb change this late in the game and is just going to chase additional people away. Being a part of a handful of returning players who are pretty done right now and about to call it quits, I don't have high hopes for the future of UO if they continue to make contradicting decisions like this in the future.

Well said, Im part of this group too.  I did get to farm it a extra month than you so I actually have a good stockpile already now.  I even started a third paid account to help do it more since my server is dead.

I just made the fountain ..twice.. just to check this out. First , we can still exit and go back, no change there . I started doing so and then built  canals to all four "boxes", Spawn was incredibly slow as before. But I got more of the best pieces esp the straight ones. So it didnt take much longer than before.  Then I took My t-hunter that never has been to the rooms and did another fountain using just 2 boxes.  Sloooow spawn, good pieces this time again,  I bet something changed there..I never ever got this good canals !  And she got credit for the Fountain. My T-hunter has the Fountain green now. So it might have changed from the other day 🙂

Larisa said:

As for the belfry...pets have always been pushed off the platform, as far as players being pushed off now? While I hope that's not intended, because it is a pain in the rear lol, it's really not that bad, killing the drakes is fairly easy and that's how the room was intended to work in the first place, so technically being able to get your flying pets up there without having to kill drakes is a bug, I know it's just using game mechanics and sure it makes it a lot easier to NOT have to kill the drakes but now I feel with these changes it's working the way it's always supposed to...since Shadowguard is Kyronix's baby maybe he can chime in 🙂

I tried Belfry on my Sampire last night (alongside a tamer). I've done it before on a Sampire, but here are some of the real annoyances of Belfry:

- You only get 1 feather per "Bell Ring", no matter how many Drakes spawn. You should be given enough feathers for everyone in your party to get up there on one Bell Ring (since you get 2 drakes per party member).

- The feathers only last 120 seconds. This is an absurdly short amount of time. By the time the drakes are dead and I actually find the corpse with the feather, it usually has around 60s on the timer.

Now the above is annoying, but at least you used to be able to joust the Greater Dragon while others got feathers, or to try and get good damage in before getting pushed off.

Here was my experience last night with the new changes to the Belfry:

- Ring Bell
- Kill Drakes
- Find Feather with 60s Left
- Use Feather
- Attack Dragon, hitting exactly 1 time
- Get instantly pushed off platform

They need to get rid of the Paralyze effect from the push, or extremely reduce the frequency of the push.

We still killed the Greater Dragon, but it just made a slightly annoying encounter an incredibly annoying encounter instead.

Yeah but didn’t you feel a bigger sense of achievement after? Hard is good.

Mervyn said:

Yeah but didn’t you feel a bigger sense of achievement after? Hard is good.

Nope. Just a sense of complete frustration. The encounter is not difficult or hard.

Beating a difficult encounter would result in a sense of achievement. 

The encounter is just a pure annoyance.

drcossack said:

Larisa said:

As for the belfry...pets have always been pushed off the platform, as far as players being pushed off now? While I hope that's not intended, because it is a pain in the rear lol, it's really not that bad, killing the drakes is fairly easy and that's how the room was intended to work in the first place, so technically being able to get your flying pets up there without having to kill drakes is a bug, I know it's just using game mechanics and sure it makes it a lot easier to NOT have to kill the drakes but now I feel with these changes it's working the way it's always supposed to...since Shadowguard is Kyronix's baby maybe he can chime in 🙂

But that's where the problem lies.  Player and pet are now pushed off with no further chance to do anything to the Greater Dragon - I just tested it myself, to see what would happen.  Right now, flying pets getting sent up top is the ONLY way to clear the Belfry.  In the time it takes for a player to get another wing, the GD will have healed a fair amount of damage.  And they'll have to KEEP doing it until time runs out, because right now, there's no way to finish the Greater in 30 minutes by using the "intended" method with the wings.

@ Kyronix is this what's supposed to happen?  I'll be able to record the belfry later, both with the wings & without, if you so desire.

The core loop with the belfry is drakes -> feather -> dragon, repeat.  You should be able to do upwards of 1000 damage to the dragon before the dragon flaps you off the platform.  Anyone who is experience something other than an approximate 1000 points of damage before getting pushed off, or roughly 1/10th of the dragons health, needs to send a report to uo@broadsword.com with a minimum of the following information,
# of characters in the party
templates of the characters in the party
makeup of the players/pets that are doing damage to the dragon before the dragon pushes you off
approximate amount of damage being done to the dragon per hit from all sources

Alternatively, if you can screen cap and send it to the same email address that would be helpful too but also include information listed above that may not be apparent from the video.

Do not post this information on the forums, make sure you email it.  Thanks for the reports and patience while we try to address any issues.

Kyronix said:

drcossack said:

Larisa said:

As for the belfry...pets have always been pushed off the platform, as far as players being pushed off now? While I hope that's not intended, because it is a pain in the rear lol, it's really not that bad, killing the drakes is fairly easy and that's how the room was intended to work in the first place, so technically being able to get your flying pets up there without having to kill drakes is a bug, I know it's just using game mechanics and sure it makes it a lot easier to NOT have to kill the drakes but now I feel with these changes it's working the way it's always supposed to...since Shadowguard is Kyronix's baby maybe he can chime in 🙂

But that's where the problem lies.  Player and pet are now pushed off with no further chance to do anything to the Greater Dragon - I just tested it myself, to see what would happen.  Right now, flying pets getting sent up top is the ONLY way to clear the Belfry.  In the time it takes for a player to get another wing, the GD will have healed a fair amount of damage.  And they'll have to KEEP doing it until time runs out, because right now, there's no way to finish the Greater in 30 minutes by using the "intended" method with the wings.

@ Kyronix is this what's supposed to happen?  I'll be able to record the belfry later, both with the wings & without, if you so desire.

The core loop with the belfry is drakes -> feather -> dragon, repeat.  You should be able to do upwards of 1000 damage to the dragon before the dragon flaps you off the platform.  Anyone who is experience something other than an approximate 1000 points of damage before getting pushed off, or roughly 1/10th of the dragons health, needs to send a report to uo@ broadsword.com with a minimum of the following information,
# of characters in the party
templates of the characters in the party
makeup of the players/pets that are doing damage to the dragon before the dragon pushes you off
approximate amount of damage being done to the dragon per hit from all sources

Alternatively, if you can screen cap and send it to the same email address that would be helpful too but also include information listed above that may not be apparent from the video.

Do not post this information on the forums, make sure you email it.  Thanks for the reports and patience while we try to address any issues.

If you're going to make us ring the bells multiple times, then I would suggest that the # of drakes that spawn be in relation to the number of players on the ground (not the number of mobiles). Nobody wants to ring that bell when they've been pushed off knowing they'll have to face 2 x mobiles in party = # of drakes by themselves. 

Mervyn said:

Pawain said:

Reywind said:

So this thread about changes to shadowguard is quickly getting derailed into a thread about auto stabling pets when you log out?

I would like to bring the discussion back to the original topic, which is the new changes to Shadowguard. These changes basically only affect tamers, as sampires can still solo the entire encounter. Was the whole point of these changes to make Shadowguard no longer viable for anyone besides sampires, like with doom? Are these changes to deter AFK scripting and multiboxing? Why can't that be enforced through GMs and the reporting system, rather than permanently ruining an encounter for everyone?

Nope the Devs did not know about it until @ mervyn brought it up.  His one man crusade to eliminate Tram to make the game Fel only.  Step 1.  Ruin pets.

So they spent their time on the bug fix publish fixing something that the majority of players did not consider a bug.

This is pretty slanderous. 


I think you’ll find my blue is a tamer, and every bug report I post is simply to better the game for everyone.

As for how much influence I have over the development team, I’m one of the oldest players, and have a clean sheet, no illigal programs or abuse given to other players. Also, people actually come to me with their issues as they’re aware I’m able to post factually and logically to explain the problems. So they’re not all “my” bug fixes. And I can tell you I’ve had my fair share of arguments with developers. But they are mostly reasonable people who listen to reasonable logic. 

So you deny nothing I said. I knew you would agree with my assessment.  Since it is true.

Mervyn said:

But you wrote “Exactly. Especially considering that every template other than a tamer will be able to pick up exactly where they left off.”
A tamer logs in dead because whatever was aggressing the pet aggresses the tamer after a crash. So you did agree with me whether you like it or not.

No, I was agreeing with the statement that having pets dumped into the stables on a disconnect is a silly idea. Me agreeing with "the pet should continue to do whatever it is doing until at least your char logs out" is your fantasy. It was not in the statement I replied to, and I never said anything of a kind.

Kyronix said:

The core loop with the belfry is drakes -> feather -> dragon, repeat.  You should be able to do upwards of 1000 damage to the dragon before the dragon flaps you off the platform.  Anyone who is experience something other than an approximate 1000 points of damage before getting pushed off, or roughly 1/10th of the dragons health, needs to send a report to uo@ broadsword.com with a minimum of the following information,
# of characters in the party
templates of the characters in the party
makeup of the players/pets that are doing damage to the dragon before the dragon pushes you off
approximate amount of damage being done to the dragon per hit from all sources

Alternatively, if you can screen cap and send it to the same email address that would be helpful too but also include information listed above that may not be apparent from the video.

Do not post this information on the forums, make sure you email it.  Thanks for the reports and patience while we try to address any issues.

drcossack said:

Kyronix said:

The core loop with the belfry is drakes -> feather -> dragon, repeat.  You should be able to do upwards of 1000 damage to the dragon before the dragon flaps you off the platform.  Anyone who is experience something other than an approximate 1000 points of damage before getting pushed off, or roughly 1/10th of the dragons health, needs to send a report to uo@ broadsword.com with a minimum of the following information,
# of characters in the party
templates of the characters in the party
makeup of the players/pets that are doing damage to the dragon before the dragon pushes you off
approximate amount of damage being done to the dragon per hit from all sources

Alternatively, if you can screen cap and send it to the same email address that would be helpful too but also include information listed above that may not be apparent from the video.

Do not post this information on the forums, make sure you email it.  Thanks for the reports and patience while we try to address any issues.

Yeah, that's about how much damage I did even today when I killed the drakes.  But that's not the problem.  The Greater Dragon in the Belfry has, off the top of my head, 20/43/43 HP/Stam/Mana regeneration.  In the time it takes for me to kill the drakes and get back up to the belfry, a good chunk of the damage I dealt will have regenerated.  That was with a single character - had I gone in with 3 tamers and tried the Drake > Wing > get pushed off > repeat loop, I would've had utter chaos on my hands from the sheer # of Drakes I'd have to fight every time.  Even with one character, I'm not entirely convinced I'd be able to manage to clear the Belfry in 30 minutes by using the Feather.

When I did the belfry last night on Lake Superior, I used 3 tamers and had each one send their pets up top (Two had White Wyrms, and the third had Platinum Drake from the Ice Dungeon.)  That's the same method I've used in the past, because they make quick work of the encounter.  In the past, when the Greater was pushing the White Wyrms off, it had a great deal of difficulty doing so (although it eventually managed), due to their constant movement and continually attacking the Greater.

Right now, the only reliable/sane way to do the Belfry is by taking advantage of the hops and sending a flying pet up top to attack.  The Dragon shouldn't be able to push players off while they're "paralyzed" and unable to move in response to the push, whether or not the pets are attacking.  That's the issue I have with the Belfry as it is right now.

Something doesn’t add up with this scenario.  There are 2 drakes spawned per player in the encounter.  Off the top of my head the drakes have somewhere around 250hp and have their wrestling buffed based on the number of players in the encounter, and with one, it isn’t very much.  Drake resists aren’t anything great, with noted weaknesses in at least 2.  With 20 hp regen the dragon gets 2 hp per sec (regen is technically ten sec regen) so about 8.3 minutes to regen the full 1000 damage dealt before the push fires.  So I guess I’m wondering what the contributing factor is that it is taking 4+ minutes to kill 2 drakes?  It definitely shouldn’t, and if it is we will need to investigate further. 

Kyronix said:

drcossack said:

Kyronix said:

The core loop with the belfry is drakes -> feather -> dragon, repeat.  You should be able to do upwards of 1000 damage to the dragon before the dragon flaps you off the platform.  Anyone who is experience something other than an approximate 1000 points of damage before getting pushed off, or roughly 1/10th of the dragons health, needs to send a report to uo@ broadsword.com with a minimum of the following information,
# of characters in the party
templates of the characters in the party
makeup of the players/pets that are doing damage to the dragon before the dragon pushes you off
approximate amount of damage being done to the dragon per hit from all sources

Alternatively, if you can screen cap and send it to the same email address that would be helpful too but also include information listed above that may not be apparent from the video.

Do not post this information on the forums, make sure you email it.  Thanks for the reports and patience while we try to address any issues.

Yeah, that's about how much damage I did even today when I killed the drakes.  But that's not the problem.  The Greater Dragon in the Belfry has, off the top of my head, 20/43/43 HP/Stam/Mana regeneration.  In the time it takes for me to kill the drakes and get back up to the belfry, a good chunk of the damage I dealt will have regenerated.  That was with a single character - had I gone in with 3 tamers and tried the Drake > Wing > get pushed off > repeat loop, I would've had utter chaos on my hands from the sheer # of Drakes I'd have to fight every time.  Even with one character, I'm not entirely convinced I'd be able to manage to clear the Belfry in 30 minutes by using the Feather.

When I did the belfry last night on Lake Superior, I used 3 tamers and had each one send their pets up top (Two had White Wyrms, and the third had Platinum Drake from the Ice Dungeon.)  That's the same method I've used in the past, because they make quick work of the encounter.  In the past, when the Greater was pushing the White Wyrms off, it had a great deal of difficulty doing so (although it eventually managed), due to their constant movement and continually attacking the Greater.

Right now, the only reliable/sane way to do the Belfry is by taking advantage of the hops and sending a flying pet up top to attack.  The Dragon shouldn't be able to push players off while they're "paralyzed" and unable to move in response to the push, whether or not the pets are attacking.  That's the issue I have with the Belfry as it is right now.

Something doesn’t add up with this scenario.  There are 2 drakes spawned per player in the encounter.  Off the top of my head the drakes have somewhere around 250hp and have their wrestling buffed based on the number of players in the encounter, and with one, it isn’t very much.  Drake resists aren’t anything great, with noted weaknesses in at least 2.  With 20 hp regen the dragon gets 2 hp per sec (regen is technically ten sec regen) so about 8.3 minutes to regen the full 1000 damage dealt before the push fires.  So I guess I’m wondering what the contributing factor is that it is taking 4+ minutes to kill 2 drakes?  It definitely shouldn’t, and if it is we will need to investigate further. 

I just experienced the "stuck pet" bug in the belfry. Pretty quick turnaround for a GM to "unstick" my pet, BUT, if we have to deal with this every time we do the belfry, it's going to get REAL old, REAL quick! @Bleak @Kyronix please fix this, soon.

I thought the bug with pets getting stuck had been fixed already? 

Kyronix said:

The core loop with the belfry is drakes -> feather -> dragon, repeat.  You should be able to do upwards of 1000 damage to the dragon before the dragon flaps you off the platform.  Anyone who is experience something other than an approximate 1000 points of damage before getting pushed off, or roughly 1/10th of the dragons health, needs to send a report to uo@ broadsword.com with a minimum of the following information,
# of characters in the party
templates of the characters in the party
makeup of the players/pets that are doing damage to the dragon before the dragon pushes you off
approximate amount of damage being done to the dragon per hit from all sources.

This is utterly terrible design, when you consider that the dragon starts chain-healing when you're off the platform.

Even if you had to repeat that incredibly tedious cycle 10 TIMES to kill him, apparently as designed, it would be a horribly annoying encounter. But in practice by the time you're back up on the platform it heals at least 500 of that 1000 damage you've dealt.

Not to mention, sometimes it kicks you off as soon as you hit him just once. Probably because the code is a broken mess.

Wouldn’t it have just been easier (and better for the game as a whole) to have pets remain in game until your char is fully logged out? rather than specifically changing the belfry (and breaking it)

So this was all just some thinly veiled attempt at changing the pet auto-log out? Seriously Mervyn, good job, how many people have you now managed to utterly p*** off? Oh yes, all the rest of the people you hadn't managed to annoy yet. They are not going to change the pet logout, how many other parts of game content are you going to trash just to pointlessly try and get your own way?

Totally not my fault. I expressed my dissatisfaction of this “band aid solution” back in May.

So when are we going to discuss other classes, such as pure mages, pure warriors, or spellweavers being able to do Shadowguard and Doom?

Haven't we focussed enough of the game around Sampires and Tamers yet?

Yeah I honestly don't see how the pet log out thing was THAT bad in regards to the Belfry....throwing RC's up there along with the flying pets you could get up there without having to kill the drakes, at least in MY humble opinion, is more of an issue, if we are going that route....because every time I did the roof NO ONE was ever up on that platform, so the auto pet log out thing was a mute point. I can see it being PART of the issue, but not the main one. IF Kyronix wants people to do that room the correct way, he should find a way to dis-allow pets to fly up there on their own, dis-allow being able to cast EV's/RC's up there...yes all of you can hate me now for saying that lol but it's true..IF you are to do that room the correct way, those things should not be allowed.

I completely agree with Larisa and @Sliss

I had no problems keying at all post patch, belfry didnt seem to take any longer at all on three tamers.  But obviously the roof itself is done for me.  Maybe Im just not good enough to do it with the change or my 3 tamers are just not going to be able to do it anymore.  Definitely taking a break this week to see what I want to do now, build a new team or just step away for a bit for rl.

So I guess thanks for that @Kyronix

When you say you’re doing it on your 3 tamers.. Do you mean you’re multiclienting and soloing it? 

If so maybe try doing it with other people. After all, this game is online. 

Mervyn said:

When you say you’re doing it on your 3 tamers.. Do you mean you’re multiclienting and soloing it? 

If so maybe try doing it with other people. After all, this game is online. 

If other people were around I would.  And transferring 20 characters to a new shard is a bit cost prohibitive.  Always look forward to your insults captain obvious.

Perhaps with the dead servers they should make full account transfers.

Well if you would like a friend to do the rooms with on Europa I will do them with you. Fwend.

Mervyn said:

I think you’ll find, this is what the original post is about, the belfry pushing the tamer off, which was only introduced a a way of countering logging out and in to move your pet up the top without having to get another feather. 

The original post is not about fiendish ai calling. 

I'm pretty sure the original post is about Shadowguard changes, since that's literally the name of the post. Thanks for your concern.

some posts have been removed. Please submit further information on this matter as requested by Kyronix to uo@broadsword.com