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Why Are Paying Customers Being Silenced on Critical Topics?

Started by NikonUS · 2025-08-03 · 110 posts · General Discussions
#0

I'm genuinely confused and disappointed. A thread I participated in was recently closed with the explanation that the message was "sent to the devs." But this is exactly why we're posting here — because when it comes to major concerns, the dev team rarely (if ever) responds directly.

We're paying customers, and we use these forums to voice concerns when other channels aren't responsive. Shutting down these discussions feels like we're being silenced instead of heard. Why are topics like these being locked when they clearly matter to the community?

I’m asking honestly: What’s the point of a forum if not to discuss important issues — especially when official responses are so rare?

They dont answer emails either.


#1
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
#2
Thanks so much for the answer and We really hope this matter is addressed.
#3
Kyronix said:
 Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
After that rolls out, can we have a discussion about regular non-IDOC house placement and the cooldown timer on all of the shards that are not named "Atlantic"?

I've read about the purpose of it, and saw this comment from y'all back in 2023:
"Good morning everyone, Due to the large amount of complaints regarding placing houses we have added a cooldown when you attempt to place a house. Thank you! UO Team"

Can you all at least display the timer for us and/or display a message that we are locked out temporarily? Give us some kind of indication of when we can use the tool again? I believe I know what the intent of it was, but I feel like it's hurting legitimate players more than the original intended targets.

When I came back earlier this year and was attempting to place, there was nothing obvious about the cooldown - I had to Google for the "True" stuff before finding out about it. It was so incredibly frustrating, because while I knew it was a valid spot (based on looking at half-a-dozen other shards), I ended up getting locked out multiple times while trying to fit the maximum size.
#4
If they're silencing you, they're not doing it very well.
#5
Kyronix said:
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
Sorry to 'hijack' this thread a bit, but I have a question regarding the classic client upgrade: will classic client tools that currently work, such as assist uoam etc., still work after the upgrade or will this client upgrade 'brick' these tools requiring them to extensively be rewritten/fixed??

It would be really nice if these tools still worked after the upgrade as lots of people still use them.
#6
username said:
Kyronix said:
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
Sorry to 'hijack' this thread a bit, but I have a question regarding the classic client upgrade: will classic client tools that currently work, such as assist uoam etc., still work after the upgrade or will this client upgrade 'brick' these tools requiring them to extensively be rewritten/fixed??

It would be really nice if these tools still worked after the upgrade as lots of people still use them.
People need to let UOassist go tug deserves to retire and you have gotten your 15 dollars worth ten years ago..
#7
Grimbeard said:
username said:
Kyronix said:
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
Sorry to 'hijack' this thread a bit, but I have a question regarding the classic client upgrade: will classic client tools that currently work, such as assist uoam etc., still work after the upgrade or will this client upgrade 'brick' these tools requiring them to extensively be rewritten/fixed??

It would be really nice if these tools still worked after the upgrade as lots of people still use them.
People need to let UOassist go tug deserves to retire and you have gotten your 15 dollars worth ten years ago..
If the client were better you wouldn’t need uoassist. 
#8
Grimbeard said:
People need to let UOassist go tug deserves to retire and you have gotten your 15 dollars worth ten years ago..
I agree BUT if the upgrade to the client doesn't break it or they are aware and can do minimal work to not break it then I think that would be the idea situation. No reason to piss people off unnecessarily. 
#9
Grimbeard said:
username said:
Kyronix said:
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
Sorry to 'hijack' this thread a bit, but I have a question regarding the classic client upgrade: will classic client tools that currently work, such as assist uoam etc., still work after the upgrade or will this client upgrade 'brick' these tools requiring them to extensively be rewritten/fixed??

It would be really nice if these tools still worked after the upgrade as lots of people still use them.
People need to let UOassist go tug deserves to retire and you have gotten your 15 dollars worth ten years ago..
As long as TUG is still willing to sell seeds then no he should not retire.
#10
Grimbeard said:
username said:
Kyronix said:
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
Sorry to 'hijack' this thread a bit, but I have a question regarding the classic client upgrade: will classic client tools that currently work, such as assist uoam etc., still work after the upgrade or will this client upgrade 'brick' these tools requiring them to extensively be rewritten/fixed??

It would be really nice if these tools still worked after the upgrade as lots of people still use them.
People need to let UOassist go tug deserves to retire and you have gotten your 15 dollars worth ten years ago..
As long as TUG is still willing to sell seeds then no he should not retire.
You assume you can still buy it 
#11
Grimbeard said:
Grimbeard said:
username said:
Kyronix said:
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
Sorry to 'hijack' this thread a bit, but I have a question regarding the classic client upgrade: will classic client tools that currently work, such as assist uoam etc., still work after the upgrade or will this client upgrade 'brick' these tools requiring them to extensively be rewritten/fixed??

It would be really nice if these tools still worked after the upgrade as lots of people still use them.
People need to let UOassist go tug deserves to retire and you have gotten your 15 dollars worth ten years ago..
As long as TUG is still willing to sell seeds then no he should not retire.
You assume you can still buy it 
NO ASSUMING about it, he is still selling them.
Copyright © 1998 - 2025 Tugsoft, Inc. All rights reserved.  He even extended his copyright.
#12
Grimbeard said:
You assume you can still buy it 
I know several players that have bought it in the last year. 

If their plan is to make an update that would essentially kill of UOA (in terms of the client not supporting UOA without a massive rewrite/overhaul) then they should 100% TELL PLAYERS NOW because people are still buying it and Tugsoft is selling.

I have reached out directly to @Kyronix regarding this and haven't gotten an answer. There's even a good chance he doesn't know the answer himself, so not blaming him.
#13
Kyronix said:
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
So, you confirm that you are focussing on a shard nobody asked for and basically ignoring the blatant issues on production servers,  your bread and butter I must remind you. Without us the vanity shard and UO and YOUR JOBs will cease to exist. 

Time to focus on production shard. This should be your priority

after the shattering people will abandon the vanity server, you better have a great plan for appeasement and retention 
#14
Kyronix said:
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
So, you confirm that you are focussing on a shard nobody asked for and basically ignoring the blatant issues on production servers,  your bread and butter I must remind you. Without us the vanity shard and UO and YOUR JOBs will cease to exist. 

Time to focus on production shard. This should be your priority

after the shattering people will abandon the vanity server, you better have a great plan for appeasement and retention 
What are you talking about? He just said what they are doing for production shards currently and not one mention of new legacy. 
#15
What are you talking about? He just said what they are doing for production shards currently and not one mention of new legacy. 
They stop holidays to focus on NL.. and what excatly do you really expect from the next event? Just look at my avatar picture.. rationalise that considering everything. Do your worst.


PS: they shared VERY little on NL for 5 yrs while working on it A LOT. so yeah.. no need to "mention" to "work" on. Meanwhile look at the actual prodo state.. start with my profile picture. Good luck!
#16
NO ASSUMING about it, he is still selling them.
Copyright © 1998 - 2025 Tugsoft, Inc. All rights reserved.  He even extended his copyright.
That doesn't mean he extended it, it probably just means the "2025" part is automatically generated based on the current year - a lot of websites have a simple code that inserts the current year after the copyright symbol.  And it wouldn't matter if he didn't extend it, he can still sell it.

I'm surprised he's still selling copies, but if he is, good for him.

However, anybody relying on it should be cautious - the last major update posted on the website was 6 years ago in 2018, and the last minor update was in 2022 (fixes some stackables), while Windows 11 came out in 2021.

It's not a matter of if, but when, in terms of older programs having issues at some point. Some are simple to fix (run as Administrator, copy certain files back to a location, etc.).

I'm curious, how would you feel if they had to hold back development of the CC because it might break a third-party utility that is rarely updated?
#17
Lokea said:
NO ASSUMING about it, he is still selling them.
Copyright © 1998 - 2025 Tugsoft, Inc. All rights reserved.  He even extended his copyright.
That doesn't mean he extended it, it probably just means the "2025" part is automatically generated based on the current year - a lot of websites have a simple code that inserts the current year after the copyright symbol.  And it wouldn't matter if he didn't extend it, he can still sell it.

I'm surprised he's still selling copies, but if he is, good for him.

However, anybody relying on it should be cautious - the last major update posted on the website was 6 years ago in 2018, and the last minor update was in 2022 (fixes some stackables), while Windows 11 came out in 2021.

It's not a matter of if, but when, in terms of older programs having issues at some point. Some are simple to fix (run as Administrator, copy certain files back to a location, etc.).

I'm curious, how would you feel if they had to hold back development of the CC because it might break a third-party utility that is rarely updated?
LMAO  Copyrights are NOT automatically extended, you have to apply for them.
#18
KroDuK said:
They stop holidays to focus on NL.. and what excatly do you really expect from the next event? Just look at my avatar picture.. rationalise that considering everything. Do your worst.

PS: they shared VERY little on NL for 5 yrs while working on it A LOT. so yeah.. no need to "mention" to "work" on. Meanwhile look at the actual prodo state.. start with my profile picture. Good luck!
And yet we are still getting Publish 120 for the prodo shards this summer, with a new mount and a major live event.

And we are still getting anniversary gifts.

And we are getting a CC upgrade.

And they are going to be doing a bunch of website upgrades.

And they are planning a bunch of holiday stuff for this fall.

Do you honestly know how much they worked on NL? Do you know how many hours a week they devoted to it?  Because I have a feeling you don't have specifics and don't know when they set it aside to push out live events and gifts and stuff for the prodo shards. 

And if it bugs you that they have "seasons" for a UO shard or two, welcome to 2025 where seasons are a normal thing in MMOs.

And I have a feeling they could have worked on it for just 5 months, and some people would still be upset about it. There were people upset that resources were put into Siege because it took away from the production shards, but here we are, and Siege is still around.

NL exists, and they are supporting it for the foreseeable future.  Just like you probably don't play Siege, you don't have to play NL, but obviously enough people do, or it's tied into their long-term plans (code re-writes, etc.) and is important to said long-term plans. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, as I think this is just one part of their future plans.
#19
LMAO  Copyrights are NOT automatically extended, you have to apply for them.
Ummm, as somebody who has several copyrights for various books, and some software I wrote many years ago, I don't how it works in your country, but here in the USA, it kicks in the moment something is created, and you don't have to register or apply for anything:

Copyright in General (FAQ) | U.S. Copyright Office

When is my work protected?

Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?

No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created.

#20
Frodo might have mix patent and copyright.. Patent u WANT to protect your stuff.. copyright u need to protect your stuff "in real time" protect your IP.. at some point it's gonna become public domain..

As for the rest @Lokea you talk with a lot of assumptions and feelings.. I don't wanna hurt your feeling.. address what needs to be address.. like my avatar picture, instead of *snip*.. then I'll come at you  ;)


Edit: Just to motivate you since u do as always, quote the whole thing.. ignore 95% to focus on a few words and bring 0 specific. "a bunch this fall" "CCupg"

The only specific I read is a new mount with a lot of but with or (assumption of excusesss).. sad stuff.
Lokea said:
KroDuK said:
They stop holidays to focus on NL.. and what excatly do you really expect from the next event? Just look at my avatar picture.. rationalise that considering everything. Do your worst.

PS: they shared VERY little on NL for 5 yrs while working on it A LOT. so yeah.. no need to "mention" to "work" on. Meanwhile look at the actual prodo state.. start with my profile picture. Good luck!
And yet we are still getting Publish 120 for the prodo shards this summer, with a new mount and a major live event.

And we are still getting anniversary gifts.

And we are getting a CC upgrade.

And they are going to be doing a bunch of website upgrades.

And they are planning a bunch of holiday stuff for this fall.

Do you honestly know how much they worked on NL? Do you know how many hours a week they devoted to it?  Because I have a feeling you don't have specifics and don't know when they set it aside to push out live events and gifts and stuff for the prodo shards. 

And if it bugs you that they have "seasons" for a UO shard or two, welcome to 2025 where seasons are a normal thing in MMOs.

And I have a feeling they could have worked on it for just 5 months, and some people would still be upset about it. There were people upset that resources were put into Siege because it took away from the production shards, but here we are, and Siege is still around.

NL exists, and they are supporting it for the foreseeable future.  Just like you probably don't play Siege, you don't have to play NL, but obviously enough people do, or it's tied into their long-term plans (code re-writes, etc.) and is important to said long-term plans. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, as I think this is just one part of their future plans.


A lot of "and" I'd like to address, but when I ask two simple questions.. one twice. learn to quote or learn how to have a proper discussion.
#21
Kyronix said:
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
So, you confirm that you are focussing on a shard nobody asked for and basically ignoring the blatant issues on production servers,  your bread and butter I must remind you. Without us the vanity shard and UO and YOUR JOBs will cease to exist. 

Time to focus on production shard. This should be your priority

after the shattering people will abandon the vanity server, you better have a great plan for appeasement and retention 
Jack, dear, your hatred of NL is overcoming your reading ability. Kyronix said that the resources required to do something about the house problem are currently dedicated to THE CLASSIC CLIENT UPGRADE!! 
#22
Back on the original intent of this post, before it gets locked again. 

Locking thread is bad.
- It blocks both good and bad discussions.
- Players will feel the urge to write another thread for the same topic because the issue was never resolved. 
- Most importantly, it gives the impression that the Devs do not care. 

Its better to just delete the threads that are negative, or temporary ban the poster for 1 week for violating forum rules and etiquettes. 

One thing leads to another, and this will never end. 

@Mariah do u agree?
#23
KroDuK said:

A lot of "and" I'd like to address, but when I ask two simple questions.. one twice. learn to quote or learn how to have a proper discussion.
Nobody wants to read walls of quotes.

Look, some people are never going to accept anything that doesn't directly benefit them on a production shard. If the devs spent 5 days working on NL the rest of this year, in their eyes, that's 5 days too many.

That's fine, the beauty of UO is that it's many things to many people - for some people, UO is defined by their friendships with other players and guildmates. I think the 'Braving Britannia' books cover that well, but many of us have our own experiences - I've got real-life friends that I met in-game 20-25 years ago.

For some, it's an "alternative" life that lets them create the perfect house and do all kinds of crafting that other MMOs don't offer and they don't have to go off on adventures in dungeons or wherever (but they can). It's unfortunate that so many MMO players these days have never experienced UO's housing and crafting system - had they done so, we'd have a lot more players.

For some players, it was UO's unique combination of how it was this really new thing in the late 90s - how the shards started, the early player gatherings, ICQ/AIM, the amount of websites that sprang up around it that all created their own communities (Stratics maybe the last one remaining, but many of us preferred CoB), the personalities that developed and became well-known in the community (Lum the Mad, Markee Dragon, etc.).

Early on, for many people, UO was a continuation of the amazing Ultima series of games, and NL is in part, an attempt to inject some of the spirit of the single-player RPGs back into UO. Plus, if you play MMOs or other online games, the whole "season" thing is becoming the norm, a way for MMOs to get players who only check in during events and expansions, to come back and play a little more.

For those angry that maybe they don't receive as many gifts in a year, maybe UO is an item-collecting game like The Sims - we see people paying hundreds of millions of gold for a single item because of its hue. You don't see that in many other games (of course most other MMOs don't let you show those items off in player housing). Or maybe they are making real-life money off of UO, and they see these things as hurting their income.

For some people, UO is Siege Perilous (or Mugen), and the production shards are abominations with their Trammel facet. For others, UO is really a third-party shard that sticks to an extremely specific point in time of UO.

There's room for everybody. For the item collectors, there's going to be a lot of items coming over from NL (and some of them will be kicking themselves for not doing NL when that time comes).  For those who are all about playing with friends/adventures, NL is a shared shard (say that 10 times really fast) they can jump on create characters and collect stuff and then take those characters back to their home shard when the season is done. For the RPGers NL is injecting some RPG elements back into UO, while also creating systems that can eventually be back-ported into the production shards and give a boost to quests/dungeons/etc..

Like I said, for some people, the devs spending even 5 days (or 5 hours) on NL is 5 days too many, but because I'm older and have been playing MMOs (and MUDS) since the 90s, and I stepped away from UO for a long time, I'm going to withhold final judgement until after things wrap up in September or October and we see what they have planned next.
#24
Seth said:
Back on the original intent of this post, before it gets locked again. 

Locking thread is bad.
- It blocks both good and bad discussions.
- Players will feel the urge to write another thread for the same topic because the issue was never resolved. 
- Most importantly, it gives the impression that the Devs do not care. 

Its better to just delete the threads that are negative, or temporary ban the poster for 1 week for violating forum rules and etiquettes. 

One thing leads to another, and this will never end. 

@ Mariah do u agree?
Actually, no, I don't agree, or at least not entirely. Deleting threads will just get me mountains of abusive dm's demanding to know why. So, only totally abusive and/or pornographic threads will ever be deleted.
Remove the trolls I'm told. Yes, if it were only that simple! I can remove a troll post. But then what about the post that quoted it? And when the person that quoted it, went on in the same post to say something that wasn't a troll, and someone posted a perfectly reasonable response to that. What do I do?
 Alternatively when I remove trolls and come back a short time later to find they've merely been replaced by more posts in the same vein?

I will try, in future, to leave more threads open, because it appears Kyronix will sometimes reply, where in the past the only response was to be found in publish notes some time later where the problem had been addressed.

The particular topic in question has been raised many times, and trolled into oblivion every time.
Then of course trolls never believe they are trolls, they believe they have every right to be as abusive as possible to anyone and everyone, but especially the devs, and sometimes me.

I try to avoid banning anyone, I don't want to take away their 'voice', and will plead and beg in DMs for people to please follow the ToS. Temp bans don't really work, because of course they didn't do anything wrong.It's me that's at fault.
#25
Kyronix said:
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
So, you confirm that you are focussing on a shard nobody asked for and basically ignoring the blatant issues on production servers,  your bread and butter I must remind you. Without us the vanity shard and UO and YOUR JOBs will cease to exist. 

Time to focus on production shard. This should be your priority

after the shattering people will abandon the vanity server, you better have a great plan for appeasement and retention 
Jack, dear, your hatred of NL is overcoming your reading ability. Kyronix said that the resources required to do something about the house problem are currently dedicated to THE CLASSIC CLIENT UPGRADE!! 
I might have misread 🙂
#26
Mariah said:
Seth said:
Back on the original intent of this post, before it gets locked again. 

Locking thread is bad.
- It blocks both good and bad discussions.
- Players will feel the urge to write another thread for the same topic because the issue was never resolved. 
- Most importantly, it gives the impression that the Devs do not care. 

Its better to just delete the threads that are negative, or temporary ban the poster for 1 week for violating forum rules and etiquettes. 

One thing leads to another, and this will never end. 

@ Mariah do u agree?
Actually, no, I don't agree, or at least not entirely. Deleting threads will just get me mountains of abusive dm's demanding to know why. So, only totally abusive and/or pornographic threads will ever be deleted.
Remove the trolls I'm told. Yes, if it were only that simple! I can remove a troll post. But then what about the post that quoted it? And when the person that quoted it, went on in the same post to say something that wasn't a troll, and someone posted a perfectly reasonable response to that. What do I do?
 Alternatively when I remove trolls and come back a short time later to find they've merely been replaced by more posts in the same vein?

I will try, in future, to leave more threads open, because it appears Kyronix will sometimes reply, where in the past the only response was to be found in publish notes some time later where the problem had been addressed.

The particular topic in question has been raised many times, and trolled into oblivion every time.
Then of course trolls never believe they are trolls, they believe they have every right to be as abusive as possible to anyone and everyone, but especially the devs, and sometimes me.

I try to avoid banning anyone, I don't want to take away their 'voice', and will plead and beg in DMs for people to please follow the ToS. Temp bans don't really work, because of course they didn't do anything wrong.It's me that's at fault.

This situation is challenging. However, I believe it’s reasonable to implement temporary bans: three days for the first offense, seven days for the second, and thirty days for the third.

That said, it’s frustrating when concerns are raised but nothing seems to be done. It might help to have a public tracker that shows when the development team plans to seriously review reported issues.

Returning to the main point, the real problem is that shutting down these discussions makes us feel silenced rather than heard.

Are our concerns being acknowledged? Is there any plan in place to address them?

If there’s no response at all, players will inevitably become frustrated. A tracker could help by acknowledging the issues and showing their status.

For example, the tracker could display the next 20 planned items and indicate where each current issue stands in the queue. This would provide transparency and help reassure the community that their feedback is being taken seriously.


#27
Lokea said:
KroDuK said:

A lot of "and" I'd like to address, but when I ask two simple questions.. one twice. learn to quote or learn how to have a proper discussion.
Nobody wants to read walls of quotes.
Got it, keep reading me.. i'm done with you.. everytime we engage in a discussion u never answer a single question and go left field.. with a politic touch.


@Mariah you need a vacation from "volunteering" a lot of absolute and cry me a river stuff, in that post.


@JackFlashUk u've address what he said on a lot of post.. u should just have @ him instead of quoting.. cuz if were not picky, u did spit a couple facts.


@Petra_Fyde about the CC update.. y'all should realised.. they were hiring a new engineer not long ago.. we can clearyl assume it's to work on the CC.. y'all talking like CC was only for prodo users.. or like that newly hired engineer would be working on prodo if not on the CC.  :o
#28
KroDuK said:
Got it, keep reading me.. i'm done with you.. everytime we engage in a discussion u never answer a single question and go left field.. with a politic touch.

Define "politic touch", and feel free to ask any questions you'd like me to answer.

We probably agree on more things than you realize - I was about ready to cancel my account earlier this evening over the stupid house placement tool's timer and I understand the hatred players have for it even more than I did when I placed my house earlier this year. I wish they'd remove it on all of the non-Atlantic shards because it's ridiculous when I have plenty of 16x16 - 18x18 spots (and even a couple of keep spots in Fel) and I get hit with this timer when poking around my shard and looking at lots of open spots, but that's for another thread.

From my perspective, it's not always pleasant talking to you because you have a hard time seeing perspectives that differ from your own.  It can be understandable - it's a 27 year-old game and people's perspectives can harden over time, but you throw statements out there as if you know how much time they spent on NL over the past 5 years and that it's practically destroying UO when you don't know what's down the road.

Look, NL is just another way to play UO.  I gave plenty of examples of how players see and play UO (and I left out the PvPers, the tamers/pet collectors, etc.).  I don't know where you fall in that list, but obviously NL is not for you, and that's fine.

It's just like how I haven't played the Classic client for more than a few minutes at a time in over 20 years (really all the way back to Third Dawn), but I think it's fantastic that they are going to move it to modern development tools and bump the FPS up and the gameplay window size and add in some QoL improvements. A rising tide lifts all boats - CC upgrades don't directly benefit me at all, but they benefit UO as a whole, and they benefit some of the people I play with, and a modern dev platform/tools means less time that the UO engineer has to deal with legacy client code, so they in fact do benefit me in a round-about way. I recognize the value of the CC, even if I wish we had 20+ years of single-client development instead of resources being split between the two.

A lot of this NL hatred is just like the hatred retail WOW players have for WOW Classic - they feel like WOW Classic is taking resources away from their version of WOW which they believe is the only version of WOW. I was in a guild that blew up over the angst/hatred some members had for WOW Classic when they found out some of us were playing it.  WOW Classic was meant to address those players who were not finding what they wanted with WOW and were headed out the door.  NL is meant to bring in some seasonal RPG play like a lot of other MMOs and similar/smaller online games have that appeal to a lot of MMO players in the 2020s. It's also turning into the official onboarding shard for new and returning players, and it's also a platform for trying systems that will be added to prodo shards, and it's giving existing players something different to do, that is more involved potentially than typical events.

UO needs some changes if it wants to be around for the 30th anniversary. I don't think NL is the only thing they have up their sleeves, but we'll see how things play out in 5 months or so.
#29
Seth said:

This situation is challenging. However, I believe it’s reasonable to implement temporary bans: three days for the first offense, seven days for the second, and thirty days for the third.

That said, it’s frustrating when concerns are raised but nothing seems to be done. It might help to have a public tracker that shows when the development team plans to seriously review reported issues.

Returning to the main point, the real problem is that shutting down these discussions makes us feel silenced rather than heard.

Are our concerns being acknowledged? Is there any plan in place to address them?

If there’s no response at all, players will inevitably become frustrated. A tracker could help by acknowledging the issues and showing their status.

For example, the tracker could display the next 20 planned items and indicate where each current issue stands in the queue. This would provide transparency and help reassure the community that their feedback is being taken seriously.



I agree with what you are saying Seth; the forums should really have an "ignore" feature so that users can stop seeing the same people that typically do the same troll-ish behavior on every single topic. That should help the people moderate themselves and then all the Mods need to worry about is removing inappropriate posts/people.
#30
keven2002 said:

I agree with what you are saying Seth; the forums should really have an "ignore" feature so that users can stop seeing the same people that typically do the same troll-ish behavior on every single topic. That should help the people moderate themselves and then all the Mods need to worry about is removing inappropriate posts/people.
It was one of my first comment on this forum but I added something; after that they should extend it to the game.. so we could hide frame skippers and the legion of bots pixels.. i'd rather fighting ghosts than cheaters with their bots army.

I did this comment during the time I came here cuz the GM in game after ignoring my tickets with the bots or PvP frame skippers cheaters, would ignore racist comment in main chat.. even Mariah; after closing my tread wouldn't see the racist comment.. I had to explain her the obvious.. to hear her telling me:"then you should def report this in game to the GM team, forum moderator/CM/dev/BS staff.. on the forum have no in game power" to close my tread a second time.. when I was originally coming here cuz in game GM did nothing.. she ended up admitting it was racism that should be reported.. I was like :"THIS IS THE REASON I CAME ON THE FORUM WITH THOSE 2 TREAD.. that you closed!!"

CM also had no power and Mariah answer in private was:"Mesanna do not come on the forum" wich is the only person that could address my problem.. so go away. *discussion closed* I did report it.. GM did nothing!! and u had paiwan telling me I didn't knew how to do a "good" report.. like he does.


If y'all doing nothing at least let me hide their pixels with a slash ignore.. if we being hypocritical.. let's be hypocritical.. let's not pretend (dot dot dot)
#31
In an effort to not further exasperate NikonUS I will not close this topic, instead I will delete the entire side topic started by King. I apologize to those posters who spoke in opposition to King's ToS breaking proposal.
#32
Mariah said:
In an effort to not further exasperate NikonUS I will not close this topic, instead I will delete the entire side topic started by King. I apologize to those posters who spoke in opposition to King's ToS breaking proposal.

I don’t think there’s any need to apologize for removing off-topic posts that break the Terms of Service. Consistent action like this sets the right tone — it encourages constructive discussion, discourages feeding trolls, and reminds us to use the report button instead.

That said, I do hope the Dev team can be more present to help address concerns or at least provide closure where needed.

#33
Kyronix said:
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.  I haven’t been around as much since it’s rolling into summer, but are there any previews for the classic client update?  

Is this going to primarily be a functionality update or going to include some graphics upgrades as well?

If this has already been addressed please disregard, someone will point me in the right direction I’m sure.

Thanks again.
#34
Oreogl said:
Kyronix said:
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.  I haven’t been around as much since it’s rolling into summer, but are there any previews for the classic client update?  

Is this going to primarily be a functionality update or going to include some graphics upgrades as well?

If this has already been addressed please disregard, someone will point me in the right direction I’m sure.

Thanks again.
Patrick asked Kyronix this in their interview this past week. The long and short of it, all though I’d encourage everyone to listen to the whole thing, is that the major work so far has been on the back end getting the CC to the point they can make any changes at all with up to date code libraries. After that they’re looking at mid summer tests for more frame rate and expandable play window. More qol will come later. 
#35
Jepeth said:
Oreogl said:
Kyronix said:
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.  I haven’t been around as much since it’s rolling into summer, but are there any previews for the classic client update?  

Is this going to primarily be a functionality update or going to include some graphics upgrades as well?

If this has already been addressed please disregard, someone will point me in the right direction I’m sure.

Thanks again.
Patrick asked Kyronix this in their interview this past week. The long and short of it, all though I’d encourage everyone to listen to the whole thing, is that the major work so far has been on the back end getting the CC to the point they can make any changes at all with up to date code libraries. After that they’re looking at mid summer tests for more frame rate and expandable play window. More qol will come later. 
Thanks for this.  Time has been a hard commodity to come by lately.  I appreciate any help I can get.  Have a good one!
#36
its easy. there friends can do want ever then want. u do 1% of that and get ban. easy as that. u don't like it go play a new game then think. the pop of uo is so low less then 15k real players. Rember this game had 1 million players before. then killed it . then let there friends run the game in the ground. 
#37
steven said:
. the pop of uo is so low less then 15k real players. Rember this game had 1 million players before. then killed it . 
I doubt it's as low as 15,000, otherwise there would be a lot more large (keep/castle) spots open on more shards, and a lot more Luna spots open.

And UO never got close to 1 million (although there's been over a million accounts opened and closed since 1997).  The peak was 250,000 in July of 2003, and that was an average of about 9,000 players per production shard, but the reality is that shards like Atlantic, LS, GL, etc. had more than 9,000 players, while smaller shards had 5,000-7,000).

Those of us playing back then would have definitely felt it if we had a million players, and there'd be a helluva lot more than 27 production shards.

If we only had 15,000 players, Atlantic would not be nearly as busy as it is and there'd be more housing spots, because almost all keep/castle spots are taken on all other shards, as are most Luna houses, etc.
#38
Lokea said:
steven said:
. the pop of uo is so low less then 15k real players. Rember this game had 1 million players before. then killed it . 
I doubt it's as low as 15,000, otherwise there would be a lot more large (keep/castle) spots open on more shards, and a lot more Luna spots open.

And UO never got close to 1 million (although there's been over a million accounts opened and closed since 1997).  The peak was 250,000 in July of 2003, and that was an average of about 9,000 players per production shard, but the reality is that shards like Atlantic, LS, GL, etc. had more than 9,000 players, while smaller shards had 5,000-7,000).

Those of us playing back then would have definitely felt it if we had a million players, and there'd be a helluva lot more than 27 production shards.

If we only had 15,000 players, Atlantic would not be nearly as busy as it is and there'd be more housing spots, because almost all keep/castle spots are taken on all other shards, as are most Luna houses, etc.
I think you grossly underestimate how many people have multiple and I mean MULTIPLE accounts....
#39
Grimbeard said:
I think you grossly underestimate how many people have multiple and I mean MULTIPLE accounts....

True, 15,000 players could mean 30,000 - 45,000 accounts.  I do think there are more players than people realize, it’s just many of them are not actively playing, and instead just holding on to their home.

When UO was at its peak of 250,000, I wonder how many actual players that was.
#40
Jepeth said:
Patrick asked Kyronix this in their interview this past week. The long and short of it, all though I’d encourage everyone to listen to the whole thing, is that the major work so far has been on the back end getting the CC to the point they can make any changes at all with up to date code libraries. After that they’re looking at mid summer tests for more frame rate and expandable play window. More qol will come later. 

I have a feeling I might be eaten alive for this but I do hope the CC changes do not break some of the automation that is available via some other means. At least until all of the QoL changes are in place. 

I have a minor disability and I love to play crafters in UO. I once had more than 40+ crafters in the game. Collecting 20+ bods for each crafter, sorting those bods, filling those bods one by one would take me more than 24 hours every day and it would cause me unbelievable physical pain. 

@NikonUS the person you are referring to does not use 30 accounts. That is just a rumor. He once found a bug with ethereal mounths and used that for a while until devs fixed it. Then he found another bug with pet summoning balls and used that for a while until the devs fixed it. Remember UO code base is almost 30 years old. The development in UO started before most of the software engineering principles were created. 30+ accounts is just a rumor that he is spreading when he finds a new bug.

I agree that we need a change with the current IDOC placement. But, I just wanted to voice my opinion that breaking some things without putting QoL in place will hurt me and many others. 

I agree with @KroDuK on this. I think a bit of automation is ok as long as we are not AFK. 

@Kyronix I hope this is taken into consideration with the new CC changes. 
@Mariah I hope voicing my opinion does not violate the ToS. 
#41
_Psycoder said:
I agree with @ KroDuK on this. I think a bit of automation is ok as long as we are not AFK. 
You just teleport them.. problem solve.. after all we need is a legit shard.. for the good OW PvP.. no wuss automation for 95% of PvP actions.. (hard capping on gear.. bring back 95% of the content with good theorycrafting instead of entire generic set of BIS like we were playing a theme park)

At first on a GM island.. then they will realised 99% are bots.. and teleport them instant in a brit cell for public shaming for the time of their sanction.

Or in the middle of britain.. hand tied to the pillory.. so people can play with the pinata.. dropping pieces of his wealth for the time being.
#42
Kyronix said:
Your feedback has been shared with the team as noted.  We will discuss the issue internally and if we feel changes are warranted we will make them known when they get through development.  Regardless - anything housing related requires engineering support and those resources are dedicated to the classic client upgrade which is slated for a mid-summer test version.
"classic client upgrade"?? Be still, my heart! Where can I read about these upgrades?
#43
Grimbeard said:
Well despite you admitting to being a cheater the thread still open maybe it's how you're going about it? 

It is the weekend, the mods are sleeping 🙂 

With that being said, this thread is not about me having a mild disability and using a 3rd party client. It is about how 1 guy had a years long monopoly in the game, and why the management is extremely insistent on looking the other way. 

I am ready to answer your questions about me in a thread you can create about me. 
#44
A two-page thread is not being "silenced" on anything, especially when it includes accusations of corruption on part of one of the employees.

They silenced the original thread. Let me repeat this for you: 

THEY SILENCED THE ORIGINAL THREAD, LOOK AT THE FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD AND THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD, AS THEY DID TO THE SAME TOPIC MANY TIMES BEFORE


Look at the first post in this thread. 

Why is the topic of this thread "Why Are Paying Customers Being Silenced on Critical Topics?"

When they realized it is a bad PR, only then they allowed this thread. 

Please learn your facts. 


Once again: You are obviously not being silenced. The more you use all caps and big font to simulate shouting, the more you drive home the fact that you are not being silenced. It takes more than a single deleted thread to be silenced, especially when that deleted thread is immediately followed by a thread that cries quite loudly about being silenced.

If a deleted thread equaled being silenced then, between multiple versions of the official boards and Stratics, I'm likely the most-silenced player in the history of this game.
#45
First and foremost, I would like to state that GMs will *never* give information about another players action/non-action with a submitted ticket investigation.
Second, I would kindly ask that you refrain from making wild accusations about the Broadsword staff. 
Finally, because you admitted to using a 3rd party client, are you certain you did not get a message? GMs will not *ban* people just for the sake of it, they do investigate every ticket that comes in thoroughly. 
#46
@Community Manager and maybe @Kyronixif he care about reading about the situation.

First and foremost, I think it’s important to acknowledge something that keeps being overlooked: players have been raising concerns about the "nonono" player and house placement issues for years. This isn't new. Kyronix has stated he's aware of the situation, but for far too long, it felt like the dev team's attention was fully consumed by New Legacy. Now that NL has been released and the Riftborn event as well, can we finally give this long-standing issue the attention it deserves?

We've asked for action on this matter, and all we've received in return is silence. Yes, Kyronix posted in Discord, but that’s not the same as actual engagement or a plan. Why not ask the broader community for feedback? Ideas like raffling IDOC plots or introducing more equitable systems have been brought up before. Even something temporary would be better than this continued inaction.

Meanwhile, this "nonono" player continues to place every single house like clockwork using 50+ accounts, there is screenshot available if needed, with names and all and nothing is done—even though people are paging daily. How is it possible that this has gone on for years with no action? It naturally leads the player base to question what’s really happening behind the scenes.

It’s time. Enough is enough. Please take this seriously and involve the community in finding a fair solution. Personally, I believe a raffle system would provide a far more balanced and hopeful experience than the current system, where regular players feel like they have zero chance.



#47
@__Psycoder you were not banned for bringing up any situation with relation to this thread.  You're free to talk about it, and as I mentioned in the PM (which is in poor taste sharing publicly, btw) I am aware of the sentiment.  An analysis of the house placement system following a house collapse is on our radar and any solution we implement will take the sentiments of these threads into consideration.

So why were you banned - typically we don't discuss this publicly, but since you seem intent on bringing this situation to the public forum it's important to share some facts.

In 2024, your accounts were actioned for violating the TOS.  You reached out to me in 2025 apologizing for your actions and asking for a review of the term.  You were eligible for a 1 year reprieve in the ban was lifted.

Fast forward to this weekend.  You were actioned for another violation.  Stop violating the TOS and you will no longer face these consequences.  
#48

Thanks for the reply,@Kyronix

It’s reassuring to hear that:

  • It’s a known issue — it’s on your radar.”

  • You’re analyzing the current system, not just monitoring complaints.

  • Community feedback is part of the process, so these threads are being read and considered.

  • While no specific fix is promised yet, it’s at least a hint that changes might come.??

That said, it’s more than time this issue got real attention. The problems with house placement after IDOC's ,  especially around scripting and unfair advantages,  have been around for years.

 Many in the community are frustrated that it’s taken this long to even get acknowledgment.

Specially that you know about "nonono" guy.

We really hope this means tangible progress is coming soon. At the very least, some open communication or timeline would go a long way. Players who value fair play have waited long enough.


#49
Kyronix said:
 An analysis of the house placement system following a house collapse is on our radar and any solution we implement will take the sentiments of these threads into consideration.
I hope this is sooner than later. Like, to be specific, this should be the next thing for production shards even if it means whatever scheduled content gets delayed. Hell, everything right now should be dropped and this should be fixed. These players that have a stranglehold on housing specifically because they're using 3rd party clients that allows them to do this should not only perma banned immediately but more importantly this should have been fixed oh 5 years ago. It's fucking embarrassing you allow this to happen, for this long... one of the largest aspects of the game get completely ruined by a handful of players. 

FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT 


PS: I have no care for the housing market but playing a game where this is allowed is EMBARASSING. Be somebody, you're new to the position and can make the decision, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT NOW
#50

Proposal: Revival of the New Magincia Raffle System as a High-End Gold Sink for the new House Placement for 2025


Objective:

Reintroduce the plot raffle system from the 2011 New Magincia event as a recurring or special-event housing lottery, specifically designed to reduce excess gold in the economy.


How It Works:

  1. Raffle Tickets:

    • Available for purchase via special vendors in designated cities or via the UO Store.

    • Tickets are non-refundable and non-transferable (bound to account).

    • Cost:

      • Normal plots (18x18 or smaller): 500 million gold per ticket. or SOV's

      • Keeps and Castles: 1 platinum (1P = 1 billion gold) per ticket. or SOV's

  2. Raffle Structure:

    • Each available plot or shard-specific slot has its own ticket pool.

    • Players can enter multiple plots, but can only win one plot per account per event.

    • After a set duration (e.g. 7–14 days), winners are randomly drawn.

  3. Winnings:

    • Winners receive a House Placement Permit (bound to account, expires in X days if unused).

    • Placement can only occur on that designated raffle plot or on shard-specific open areas (if unrestricted).

  4. Unclaimed or Unsold Plots:

    • Made available via traditional placement rules after a grace period.


Economic Benefits:

  • Massive gold sink: A single event could absorb tens of trillions of gold if implemented shard-wide.

  • Limits hoarding: One win per account limits abuse by multi-boxers.

  • Fair chance: Equal opportunity for all players, regardless of connection speed or time zone.

  • Engagement boost: Revives interest in shard-wide events and long-term play.



#51

yes, people will complain about those players with 20+ accounts will always have better odds.

but under the current system, most players have zero chance of ever placing a castle or keep or any 18x18.

Even with a biased raffle, the odds are still better for everyone.

Let me help you frame this clearly using a simple formula and logic.


Let’s assume:

  • One castle plot is available.

  • 500 total tickets are sold.

  • Some players own many accounts, some only 1.

Player TypeAccountsTickets EnteredOdds (%)
Player A11 ticket1 / 500 = 0.2%
Player B5050 tickets50 / 500 = 10%

Now compare that to the current system:  0% for 99% of players.

Plus if the person with 50 accs enter all his accounts in the raffle, he will have to drop 50P for only 10% chance!!

“Yes, players with 20–50 accounts will always have more entries. But under the raffle, I still have a real chance, no matter how small. That’s infinitely better than the current state where I have no chance at all.”

#52
Why complicated solution lol.... if you want a raffle after a idoc only put a stone and the high bidder receive it after 24 hours super easy. None will buy to resell because the price will be the market price.
#53
Kyronix said:
 An analysis of the house placement system following a house collapse is on our radar and any solution we implement will take the sentiments of these threads into consideration.


For the love of Ultima, ditch the timer on the house placement tool.  It has caused me so much frustration when I came back earlier this year.  I didn’t even realize there was anything interfering with placing if you tried to use the tool a couple of times, and that stupid “true” message should have been replaced with a “please try again in a few moments” message. 

I almost quit after barely a month back because of how frustrating it is to place for a legit player using the official clients.  I found a great spot and then had to waste so much time on the tool itself.  

Now that I’ve re-subbed an old account for my son, we are right back to the house placement tool delays and it’s wasting so much time as we find places and try to see what fits.  

It’s literally faster to log out, log in to Atlantic and other shards, ride out with a horse from the nearest moongate. see what’s there and screenshot it, ride back to the nearest moongate or inn, log out and log back into my home shard and try again than to keep using the tool.  

The placement tool delays are not hurting the people cheating, just the legitimate players. 
#54

NikonUS said:
    • Cost:

      • Normal plots (18x18 or smaller): 500 million gold per ticket. or SOV's

      • Keeps and Castles: 1 platinum (1P = 1 billion gold) per ticket. or SOV'





So the goal is to cut out all but the wealthiest players and also drive sales to RMT sites and ensure that large houses and keeps and castles coming onto the market stay with the wealthiest players?  

Congratulations?

Gold sinks don’t work by the way. UO does not have a fixed economy, because gold is being created every day.  It didn’t work with the original house customization gold sink, and it won’t work now.  it just prices it out of the range of a lot of players. Another good way to divide the player base.  
#55
creampie said:
Why complicated solution lol.... if you want a raffle after a idoc only put a stone and the high bidder receive it after 24 hours super easy. None will buy to resell because the price will be the market price.
You really want people with tons of gold buying up every plot to resell at an even higher price? Nope. You can't have a bid system else we're back to square one where RMT is king. Entries should be a nominal fee or free.
#56
username said:
You really want people with tons of gold buying up every plot to resell at an even higher price? Nope. You can't have a bid system else we're back to square one where RMT is king. Entries should be a nominal fee or free.

This. If we do a  system where people either bid for the highest price or are spending hundreds of millions or billions on tickets, you’re going to have flippers who are going to have the money to get the spots and they will turn around and sell the houses for higher prices than they paid.  Meanwhile they’ve taken high-end plots off the market as well while they wait for somebody who has the gold or real-life cash to pay their prices, which keeps prices for everybody else even higher. 

It’s a great way to keep the housing market artificially high.  Benefits only the RMTers and uber wealthy.   

It really makes a lot of players angry to see this kind of stuff in 2025, when the player base is so much smaller than it was 20 years ago. 
#57
not hey wont sell it higher than they paid and they are looking for gold sink best idea ever for it. after idocs letting people bid on them with a stone in britain who show plots available... you idea free are exactly the opposing will still be same shit with people trying to resell them
#58
creampie said:
not hey wont sell it higher than they paid and they are looking for gold sink best idea ever for it. 
They will sell it for higher than they paid (it’s literally how they make money on it)  and they definitely won’t sell it for less.  

Gold sinks don’t work in a game where new gold is generated every single day, much of it automated by bots and scripters.  Gold sinks have never stopped inflation and they never will.  Age of Shadows should have told you that..  

Make it a cheap or free raffle and let regular players at least have a shot.  

Regular/non-wealthy players are paying the same $10-14 a month for their accounts that the RMTers and bitters and scripters are.   
#59
Lokea said:
creampie said:
not hey wont sell it higher than they paid and they are looking for gold sink best idea ever for it. 
They will sell it for higher than they paid (it’s literally how they make money on it)  and they definitely won’t sell it for less.  

Gold sinks don’t work in a game where new gold is generated every single day, much of it automated by bots and scripters.  Gold sinks have never stopped inflation and they never will.  Age of Shadows should have told you that..  

Make it a cheap or free raffle and let regular players at least have a shot.  

Regular/non-wealthy players are paying the same $10-14 a month for their accounts that the RMTers and bitters and scripters are.   
Nope you are totally wrong 
#60
Kyronix said:
@ __Psycoder you were not banned for bringing up any situation with relation to this thread.  You're free to talk about it, and as I mentioned in the PM (which is in poor taste sharing publicly, btw) I am aware of the sentiment.  An analysis of the house placement system following a house collapse is on our radar and any solution we implement will take the sentiments of these threads into consideration.

So why were you banned - typically we don't discuss this publicly, but since you seem intent on bringing this situation to the public forum it's important to share some facts.

In 2024, your accounts were actioned for violating the TOS.  You reached out to me in 2025 apologizing for your actions and asking for a review of the term.  You were eligible for a 1 year reprieve in the ban was lifted.

Fast forward to this weekend.  You were actioned for another violation.  Stop violating the TOS and you will no longer face these consequences.  
 :o 😂

I don't really have much opinion on housing since I don't get involved, but awesome response Kyronix.... I'm getting Jim Carrey vibes from Liar Liar "stop breaking the law A**hole!". 

That said... if you wanted to just hop onto ATL at any point during this event and see the blatant multiboxing that is going on and action some of those accounts... that'd be great. OR just tell us that's legal so people can stop complaining about it here.
#61
Apologies for allowing this thread to become so toxic. I was unable to get the internet connection I was hoping for from my holiday hotel. 🙁
#62
creampie said:
Nope you are totally wrong 

No I'm not - nobody buys a house with the intent to sell it for less than they paid. 

And if you're talking about gold sinks, if gold sinks worked, they would have put a lot more of them into the game over the last 20+ years (we'd see more high-value items being sold for large prices by NPCs for instance). But they don't work (outside of Siege and Mugen), because gold is constantly added to the game through monster loot, champ spawns, chests, and selling to NPCs.

In the early 2000s around the time that house customization was released, the devs even mentioned the problem with gold sinks in an economy where gold is always being added on a daily basis - if you don't slow down or reduce the gold being added to the game, then it's meaningless. I remember bidding on New Magincia plots (I want to say some were 2,000gp and others were 10,000gp) and while it took a lot of gold out of the economy and around 10,000 or 15,000 players did the lottery system (the devs released a detailed analysis but I don't have it handy), ultimately they said that gold was eventually added back into the game as people continued to do the things that added gold to the game every day (monster loot, chests, etc.)

And even if Atlantic has thousands of players, there are not prime 18x18s and keeps and castles falling every single day, which makes it sporadic, and what you are talking about would be coding a gold sink that applies to a single person at each IDOC who wins the bid.  On smaller shards, unless it's a really unique piece of land, people could just wait a few days and place, so the dev resources put into such a system would be a waste.

Selling IDOCs to the highest bidder would do one thing though - keep prime real estate in the hands of certain people, and out of reach of a lot of players.

If you want to go that route though of disposing of IDOC spots and call it a "gold sink",  do like New Magincia originally did, make the tickets cheap and unlimited.  You would get a lot of gold out of the system from a lot of people (instead of just one person at a time), and at least the regular players would feel like they have a small chance against the wealthiest players.

#63
Mariah said:
Apologies for allowing this thread to become so toxic. I was unable to get the internet connection I was hoping for from my holiday hotel. 🙁
No need to apologize Mariah; I think this sort of discussion (and having Kyronix respond) is actually good to allow and kind of shows customers aren't really being silenced at all unless they are breaking the rules.

Enjoy your holiday!
#64
keven2002 said:
Mariah said:
Apologies for allowing this thread to become so toxic. I was unable to get the internet connection I was hoping for from my holiday hotel. 🙁
No need to apologize Mariah; I think this sort of discussion (and having Kyronix respond) is actually good to allow and kind of shows customers aren't really being silenced at all unless they are breaking the rules.

Enjoy your holiday!
Yes, there is no gain from constant praise, and nothing in the real world is perfect.

We need to allow room for honest, even negative, feedback—as long as it’s respectful and not in violation of the TOS. Vulgar or purely toxic comments have no place, but pretending everything is fine when it’s not helps no one. Improvements only come when we acknowledge what isn’t working.
#65
I was about to post a really long reply to both @Kyronix and @Community Manager  but I will skip that. I am trying to make improvements in my life by staying away from people that trigger me. 

With that being said, I will add 2 points here.
  • @Kyronix, look at the message I sent to you about the ban from last year. Look at the post here. I was in front of my computer when I was banned for being AFK last year. I was in front of my computer when I was banned for being AFK this time as well. At this point, I am curious about what is expected from me. Should I press my face to the screen and then send you a picture whenever I am playing UO? And the main issue here is that, you have known about nonono for years, but every time this topic is brought up he gets the benefit of doubt. At the same time, I am banned even when I am in front of my computer, the GM will not spend 5 seconds to send me message, or transfer me to jail. At this point, I am confident that nonono is receiving unfair advantages that me and many others are not receiving. What is causing this? 
  • I would like to apologize for the vulgar language, but there is no other way to explain it in a way to captures my anger about this. If condom had broken at the same time you acknowledged the housing issue at Atlantic, my kid by now would be old enough to **** talk about the UO housing issues. That is including 9 months pregnancy and couple years to start talking. Yes, this problem has been around this long... Why is it that some players get years long benefit of the doubt, where as the others are not given 5 seconds to prove their innocence? 

@creampie and @Lokea here is what I came up with in 5 minutes.

  1. Remove the timer from the house placement tool. Players are able to place a house, sell, trade, etc, with a house that they placed.
  2. After an IDOC, a stone/lottery entry placement is spawned at the place of the house. Players can enter the lottery, if they win they get the old house that was there (without any items in the house obviously).

  1. 13x13
  2. To be able to enter the lottery for 13x13 and smaller houses, your account must have paid membership for the last 3 months consecutively. Otherwise you cant join the lottery. 
  3. If you win the lottery for 13x13 and smaller houses, you cant sell, demolish, trade, the house for 3 months.  You also can not enter other lotteries for 3 months.
  4. Each entry for 13x13 and smaller houses starts with something like 5k non-refundable gold. 
  5. Every time you enter a new lottery, the entry price for you is doubled. so it goes 5k, 10k, 20k, 40k, 80k, 160k,  320k, ...
  6. The only way to reset the doubling price is that you either win, or you don't bid anything for 3 months.
  7. Players can manually start the 2 week IDOC process if they want to get rid of the house. After 2 weeks, the house is IDOC and this process starts again. 

  1. 16x16
  2. To be able to enter the lottery for 16x16 and smaller houses, your account must have paid membership for the last 6 months consecutively. Otherwise you cant join the lottery. 
  3. If you win the lottery for 16x16 and smaller houses, you cant sell, demolish, trade, the house for 6 months. You also can not enter other lotteries for 6 months.
  4. Each entry for 16x16 and smaller houses starts with something like 20k non-refundable gold. 
  5. Every time you enter a new lottery, the entry price for you is doubled. so it goes 20k, 40k, 80k, 160k,  320k, 640k, 1.28mil, ...
  6. The only way to reset the doubling price is that you either win, or you don't bid anything for 3 months.  
  7. Players can manually start the 2 week IDOC process if they want to get rid of the house. After 2 weeks, the house is IDOC and this process starts again. 

  1. 18x18
  2. To be able to enter the lottery for 18x18 and smaller houses, your account must have paid membership for the last 12 months consecutively. Otherwise you cant join the lottery. 
  3. If you win the lottery for 18x18 and smaller houses, you cant sell, demolish, trade, the house for 12 months. You also can not enter other lotteries for 12 months.
  4. Each entry for 18x18 and smaller houses starts with something like 160k non-refundable gold. 
  5. Every time you enter a new lottery, the entry price for you is doubled. so it goes 160k,  320k, 640k, 1.28mil, 2.56mil, ...
  6. The only way to reset the doubling price is that you either win, or you don't bid anything for 3 months.  
  7. Players can manually start the 2 week IDOC process if they want to get rid of the house. After 2 weeks, the house is IDOC and this process starts again.

Same thing with castles/keeps.

The idea is to 
  1. Punish repeat bidders. 
  2. Discourage bidding if you don't want to use that house.


I am sure these ideas that I spitted out in few minutes could be improved a lot. I just wanted to show that when there is a will there is a way. 

#66
@__Psycoder you have some solid ideas, but by making the bids more expensive the bigger the house, it perpetuates the problems we currently have, and prime spots will most likely eventually still go to the people you don’t want them to go to - they are very good at adapting to changes in the game.

I get trying to tie the accounts down to the houses long enough to maybe scare off the house traders/flippers who tie up too many houses, but those restrictions are really complex and will also scare a lot of regular people away and arguably they impact the casual players more than the people you don’t care for.

I know it may seem for various reasons that everybody has a lot of gold in the bank, but that’s simply not the case. It’s especially true for returning players who left years ago with a million or maybe five or ten in the bank and thought they had a lot until they come back and see horses that were just introduced last month selling for billions, based solely on their color.

This kind of stuff needs to remain incredibly simple in order to work, and it needs to be designed with all players in mind.  And don’t think in terms of gold sinks like some do - gold sinks should be ongoing and shouldn’t penalize causal players (and we should look at how some are generating new food everyday but that’s another thread).  Teleporting to vendors is a good example.  Making it expensive for a shot at a nice housing spot isn’t. 

The restrictions you propose should all be the same regardless of the size of the plot, and they should give the casual players as much of a chance as the House flippers/RMTers, and they also shouldn’t tie the casual players down.  Doubling the lottery tickets in price for every ticket bought literally prices the casual players out.  Keep it simple - you can buy one ticket per account, maybe 100,000 gold, and that’s it.  It’ll take plenty out of the economy if people care about that sort of thing.


#67
Lokea said:
  And don’t think in terms of gold sinks like some do - gold sinks should be ongoing and shouldn’t penalize causal players (and we should look at how some are generating new food everyday but that’s another thread).  

Errrr...I was hungry, I meant gold, not food.  How a large amount of gold is apparently still entering the game every day should be looked at, but that has to be on the dev side and not something they could ever discuss publicly.  We knew in the past what methods led to large amounts of gold entering the game, but it's different now.
#68
Just my 2 cents here.... but I liked the idea about just making the plot (replacing whatever was there) an auction. Make there be some sort of "house auction" NPC in Brit commons that allows people to see the plots and place their bids (kinda like New Mag stalls?). You put in your max price and the bids will automatically be placed on like a 50k increment. Once the auction is over; the highest bidder has the gold automatically taken from their account. Any house that is not bid on will be left empty; free for anyone to place.

This removes most of the "profit" from placing a house and everyone has a chance to partake without relying on scripts or having 50 accounts active. I'm sure the 18x18 will still be expensive due to supply/demand but I think the smaller plots that aren't in prime spots would become cheaper for those that want a house bc the "realtors" likely aren't going to be able to outbid everyone on every house when that might mean they end up with the smaller house they can't sell for a profit. 

Side note... this is essentially just ATL right? Seems like all other shards there are plenty of spots to place a house.
#69
All of these ideas are good with three exceptions IMHO. 
  • Whomever got the house after the IDOC, should not be able to sell/transfer/demolish the house for 12 moths.
  • Accounts must have been paid consecutively for the last 12 months before they can join the auction/lottery.
  • Accounts that has won the auction/lottery cant join another auction/lottery for 12 months. 

#70
All of these ideas are good with three exceptions IMHO. 
  • Whomever got the house after the IDOC, should not be able to sell/transfer/demolish the house for 12 moths.
  • Accounts must have been paid consecutively for the last 12 months before they can join the auction/lottery.
  • Accounts that has won the auction/lottery cant join another auction/lottery for 12 months. 
You've just ruled out a huge chunk of players:
  • Returning vets who took a break and just returned
  • People who are nervous about committing to a house for 12 months because they either aren't sure they will want to remain in that house for 12 months or who may want to change shards.
  • People who are nervous about committing to a house for 12 months when they might come across an even better house.
What you haven't ruled out are RMTers and flippers who might be willing to shell out $120 for a year to sit on it and then still sell it for a few plat and sitll make a profit.
#71
keven2002 said:
Just my 2 cents here.... but I liked the idea about just making the plot (replacing whatever was there) an auction. Make there be some sort of "house auction" NPC in Brit commons that allows people to see the plots and place their bids (kinda like New Mag stalls?). You put in your max price and the bids will automatically be placed on like a 50k increment. Once the auction is over; the highest bidder has the gold automatically taken from their account. Any house that is not bid on will be left empty; free for anyone to place.

This removes most of the "profit" from placing a house and everyone has a chance to partake without relying on scripts or having 50 accounts active. I'm sure the 18x18 will still be expensive due to supply/demand

This auction scenario still keeps the largest/best houses in the hands of the RMTers/flippers/etc. who have a lot of gold, so what's the point?  Why put dev resources into this when the outcome is literally the same - the people y'all complain about will still end up with the houses whether they place with bots or they outbid everybody else.

It does nothing to fix the situation of a small number of people controlling available/unused real estate.

You want to bring up New Magincia, go back to the 2k and 10k raffle system we had for the original 15x15s over a decade ago.

#72
keven2002 said:

Side note... this is essentially just ATL right? Seems like all other shards there are plenty of spots to place a house.
Any of these alternatives being pitched should only apply to Atlantic.  On most other shards you can freely place towers and 18x18s.
#73
I believe some of the ideas in this thread are valid, I also think some of mine will be a good addition despite the objections.  

None of us has the data the devs have. So I suggest we keep brainstorming. When the devs have the bandwidth to start looking at this, they can go over the ideas here and use the ones that match the data they have. 
#74
I believe some of the ideas in this thread are valid, I also think some of mine will be a good addition despite the objections.  

None of us has the data the devs have. So I suggest we keep brainstorming. 
We know this much - if there was some kind of bidding system where the plots go to the highest bidder, then the very same people you complain about will still control the available plots, because, surprise, surprise, they are going to have the money for it.
#75
Lokea said:
We know this much - if there was some kind of bidding system where the plots go to the highest bidder, then the very same people you complain about will still control the available plots, because, surprise, surprise, they are going to have the money for it.
I agree with this. IMHO, a lottery, where people entering lotteries too often are punished is better. Just my 2 cents though. 

#76
Just an FYI about the "lotteries"... that's probably just as bad given the "pro house people" have like 20-50 accounts which means they are going to get 20-50x more chances than a single player with a single account. Then they get the house and sell them...we are back where we started.

Auctioning the plot wouldn't discriminate on how many accounts someone has... only the amount of gold that person is willing to pay. By giving "free" housing, it's just going to keep being a problem bc people can make a ton of profit (place the house for maybe 200k and sell for 200mil) by selling compared to an auction where people who are interested can bid what they want... if they miss out then they can check out the next auction... I'd guess people making a living on placing/selling houses wouldn't like this idea because it pretty much removes 90-99% of their profit margin. 

That said.... those people with 20-50 accts might be what is helping keep the lights on so maybe that's all the Devs are focused on right now.
#77
keven2002 said:
Just an FYI about the "lotteries"... that's probably just as bad given the "pro house people" have like 20-50 accounts which means they are going to get 20-50x more chances than a single player with a single account. Then they get the house and sell them...we are back where we started.

Auctioning the plot wouldn't discriminate on how many accounts someone has... only the amount of gold that person is willing to pay. By giving "free" housing, it's just going to keep being a problem bc people can make a ton of profit (place the house for maybe 200k and sell for 200mil) by selling compared to an auction where people who are interested can bid what they want... if they miss out then they can check out the next auction... I'd guess people making a living on placing/selling houses wouldn't like this idea because it pretty much removes 90-99% of their profit margin. 

That said.... those people with 20-50 accts might be what is helping keep the lights on so maybe that's all the Devs are focused on right now.
People who have 20-50 accounts may have more chances than a single player with a single account in a raffle system, but it's not a player with 20-50 accounts versus a single player with a single account vying for a spot - if a thousand people enter, odds are that it's going to somebody who is not an RMTer/flipper.

Auctioning the plot to the highest bidder will still put the prime spots in the hands of the people you don't want controlling the housing market. You think that it will hurt their profit margin when the reality is they are sitting an amount of gold you might not be able to imagine, and sure they may give up on a few smaller plots (but we are talking about spots they probably don't care about anyways), but they are still going to win the prime spots, and we are back to square one.
#78
The housing prices are what they are, and will continue to be that. Are people going to start paying 20 plat for an undesirable house just because nonono paid 20 plat for it? Absolutely not.

The housing prices will all run on supply and demand. On Atlantic, currently one guy controls all of the liquid supply. He gets it for free, or, at the cost of his time to setup his cheating and pay for his cheating accounts. He then sells it for a 100% profit. If he suddenly has to start PAYING to get those houses, then in order to make a profit, he would have to raise the price on his houses. Would people pay for that higher price? I know I wouldn't (I also won't buy a house at this time because of the threat of incidentally supporting non ono.

I don't think the lottery system would work, he controls more accounts than the average person. Which as a result, he would still control more houses than the average person. This would at least put a dent in his ability to control the supply, but not one that's significant enough.




OR


Hold up. Just a thought.

Instead of wasting hours, days, weeks, years - discussing solutions to this "problem", why can't we just ban this guy and all his accounts, all at the same time, and delete everything? To me that sounds like the simplest solution to this problem.

And if he comes back?

Do it again. And again. And again. Until he gets the hint and doesn't come back.


https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/167056/houses-burning-players-banned
#79
firec said:
Pawain said:
Since names are being put here. 

No no no
Scribbles
AR

Are they the same person?
Are we not allowed to use names? Sorry, I'm actually a returning player and am unaware if this is allowed or not.
Not if you are accusing them of something.  I was referring to names earlier in the thread, I did not notice your post specifically.

I do like your Or option.
#80
creampie said:
Why complicated solution lol.... if you want a raffle after a idoc only put a stone and the high bidder receive it after 24 hours super easy. None will buy to resell because the price will be the market price.
This right here is the answer. Crazy good gold sink and no way for house sellers to make a profit. If the most someone will bid is 2plat and the house seller buys for 2plat - no profit. 

This is super easy to implement. Just do it like and auction safe. 1 day auction on the house sign. Called out like idocs for one day. 

Also - the house placement cooldown should NOT apply to toons in the middle of resizing their own home.  I should get as many attempts as I want in my housing resize window. 

Lastly gold sinks absolutely work in game to reduce the money supply. The problem is gold sinks are too small to soak up any meaningful amount of gold.  Imagine you paid a tax of 10m per day on your house in uo and 1m a day to stable a pet and each death cost 20m.  Now how soon till you are out of gold?  Gold sinks do work IF there are enough and big enough to matter.  5k gold when I die is nothing when event chests drop 1700 gold and I can get 2-3 per minute.   Housing auction gold sink would soak up lots of gold and eventually bring house prices down. 

#81
firec said:
The housing prices are what they are, and will continue to be that. Are people going to start paying 20 plat for an undesirable house just because nonono paid 20 plat for it? Absolutely not.

The housing prices will all run on supply and demand. On Atlantic, currently one guy controls all of the liquid supply. He gets it for free, or, at the cost of his time to setup his cheating and pay for his cheating accounts. He then sells it for a 100% profit. If he suddenly has to start PAYING to get those houses, then in order to make a profit, he would have to raise the price on his houses. Would people pay for that higher price? I know I wouldn't (I also won't buy a house at this time because of the threat of incidentally supporting non ono.

I don't think the lottery system would work, he controls more accounts than the average person. Which as a result, he would still control more houses than the average person. This would at least put a dent in his ability to control the supply, but not one that's significant enough.

He will just be a little more picky about what lots he gets, but at the end of the day, auctioning off the prime spots will still keep them out of reach of a lot of players (including many returning players) and will keep those houses in the hands of a lot of people you don't like.

As for a raffle system like the original New Magincia system (which is probably still in the game and available) where it was 2,000 or 10,000 per ticket depending on lot, if he has 50 accounts, and two thousand accounts enter, at least the other 1,950 players (or 500 players with multiple accounts or whatever) have a better chance than giving it to people with the most money.

At least with a cheap raffle system, you will give regular/normal players a chance (and if you care about gold sinks, New Magincia raffles took billions of gold out of the economy).

I do agree with you that some people need to be banned if they are using 3rd-party tools to get the lots - it would solve a lot of problems.
#82
Theo said:
  Housing auction gold sink would soak up lots of gold and eventually bring house prices down. 
The only thing that would bring house prices down on Atlantic is more houses. 

That's it. It's simple.  We don't need complicated lottery systems that keep these plots in the hands of a small number of players (whether they are legit wealthy or gained their wealth through sketchy means it still keeps better houses out of the hands of a lot of players).

It's why we had Trammel added, it's why we had Malas added (which was UO's peak).  I lived out of a 7x7 house with multiple people from mid 1998 - mid 2000 when Tram opened up, and nothing else would solve the housing problem other than more houses.

Now, obviously certain types of people may need to have their accounts dealt with if they are acquiring houses through sketchy means, but at the end of the day, even if they held 100 houses, it's a drop in the bucket for Atlantic and it's thousand or more players.

And by the way, Atlantic is the only shard that has this problem, and all of these solutions would be horrible/wasted on the other shards. The rest of us can find max-storage 18x18 houses/towers on our shards - Heck, on LS I just placed a keep on Tram a few nights ago after a lot of scouting. I have a lot of 18x18 and tower spots marked on Tram, and there are even multiple max-storage spots on the edge of Zento if you need a town one screen over.
#83
We can talk about certain people until we are blue in the face, but they will be handled by the devs, so let's talk about housing shortages on Atlantic.

Putting in-demand houses up for the highest bid or a New Magincia-style raffle system doesn't increase the supply.  It just shuffles around a scarce resource. Those of us who lived through over-crowded shards prior to the Trammel split know this (as do those who came a bit later before Age of Shadows led to Malas).

Housing shortages can ultimately only be alleviated by more houses however unlike in 1998 and 1999 and early 2000, I have seen smaller spots on Atlantic, and I've seen a lot of Atlantic players indicate that if they had more storage, they'd be happy with a smaller house (that they may currently have). Maybe we should talk about storage increases and whether it would satisfy a lot of people, because a lot of the complaints seem to be about those desiring max-storage houses (whether new or returning players, or players who transferred to ATL).
#84
We all agree there's a issue that is 100% Atlantic please act accordingly so all other shards don't suffer 
#85
Grimbeard said:
We all agree there's a issue that is 100% Atlantic please act accordingly so all other shards don't suffer 
This. We don’t need to suffer on other shards because some people choose Atlantic.  Keep the solutions confined to Atlantic only.  
#86
Lokea said:
Grimbeard said:
We all agree there's a issue that is 100% Atlantic please act accordingly so all other shards don't suffer 
This. We don’t need to suffer on other shards because some people choose Atlantic.  Keep the solutions confined to Atlantic only.  
It's not just this and Atlantic It's also pvp "fixes" we need a way to only apply things to the specific areas of need of course with spaghetti code It's impossible 
#87
Raffle System Idea for UO

@Kyronix

I agree 100%,  the raffle system for Ultima Online. After reflecting on the current system and fairness, I truly believe this could be one of the most impactful improvements for the game.

A well-designed raffle system would:

  • Give all players a fair shot.

  • Prevent camping, scripting, and other forms of abuse.

  • Encourage wider participation and community excitement.

This idea has the potential to make a big difference in keeping the game fun, fair, and engaging for everyone, right now regular everyday players indeed have zero chance to plot anything. If you add a new raffle system, will give everyone a shot.  no matter if they have 10,20,50,100 accounts, the more even better, more subs are welcome anyway. but lets say a caslte goes idoc , will have at least 1000 players trying to get that and they will buy a ticket, so no matter if someone bring 100 paid accs, regular players still have a chance. better than the zero chance that we have now.

I genuinely think this could be one of the best additions to UO in a long time.

Please consider it.


#88
No raffle system will give everyone the same chance.  

Hell yes I would open a new account just to hold the house I would lose to participate in the raffle.  Then sell that house for plats on Atl. Transfer the items I buy with it to LS.

They need to fix the exploit.  Not change the rules because they can't code house placement so that it can not be cheated.
#89
Pawain said:
No raffle system will give everyone the same chance.  

Hell yes I would open a new account just to hold the house I would lose to participate in the raffle.  Then sell that house for plats on Atl. Transfer the items I buy with it to LS.

They need to fix the exploit.  Not change the rules because they can't code house placement so that it can not be cheated.
That plan hasn't worked in 20 years time for new thinking 
#90
Somebody said there's an IDOC in a few hours on Atlantic, a Minoc castle, so we'll see who ends up with it.

I haven't looked yet as I'm getting ready for Mistas, but if it's in Fel, it's going to be hilarious. Note: IDOCs for billing problems or somebody rage-quitting are not funny as that represents the loss of a UO player, However, a castle in Fel on Atlantic has a lot of potential for humor.
#91
Lokea said:
Somebody said there's an IDOC in a few hours on Atlantic, a Minoc castle, so we'll see who ends up with it.

I haven't looked yet as I'm getting ready for Mistas, but if it's in Fel, it's going to be hilarious. Note: IDOCs for billing problems or somebody rage-quitting are not funny as that represents the loss of a UO player, However, a castle in Fel on Atlantic has a lot of potential for humor.

D'oh! I wish I'd read this soon enough to be a fly on the wall for it.

I'm in agreement with Lokea and others who are not interested in raffles. In a raffle players with a large number of accounts will always have the advantage. Maybe an argument could be made that it's fair since they pay more each month, but it's no way to make the majority of players happy on the whole. Certainly not happy making for new or returning players. And it takes away long held traditions and fun, like back when placing houses wasn't overrun by cheaters.

On the other hand I don't think it's fair to keep hammering at Atlantic players, telling them in effect they've made their beds with choosing to play and live on Atlantic. I read that all the time, like there should be a punishment for playing there. You can't fault someone for wanting to play on a highly populated shard.

That said, I think there is a fix for it, but lots of people don't want that either. If moving in-between shards and shard bound equipment didn't make things so restrictive, players would be able find housing elsewhere and go where they want to fight, join groups, take part in events, etc.

And with that said, I've come to see how the ability to move that freely between shards could disrupt established, happy, healthy player communities. That would not be a good thing. I'm speaking strictly regarding moving between shards, not at all about shard bound items. Shard bound items, without a means to turn items account bound, blows. I mean really, really blows. Like, takes a trip to Tijuana gets all liquored up and blows hard. 

Anywho, I'm guessing multiple people have probably already suggested this so, forgive me if I'm repeating something that's already been hashed out...

Why not create satellite shards that are just for housing? Same rules apply, only one house per account. You have a satellite moongate that brings you to your shard's Housing Only area. No mobs there to fight. You can't farm resources. You can't train skills there. You can put your house and all that goes into running and enjoying it there, deco, utilitarian items, resources, etc., including vendors.

What are the down sides? There very well may be things that make this a bad idea. Like what? Off the top of my head it seems doable and a good solution to housing shortages on some shards.
#92
Like, takes a trip to Tijuana gets all liquored up and blows hard. 

I think you are overestimating how many posters are interested in what I'm doing on my vacation. 
#93
Pawain said:
Like, takes a trip to Tijuana gets all liquored up and blows hard. 

I think you are overestimating how many posters are interested in what I'm doing on my vacation. 
  :o 😂 😂  
#94
LilyGrace said:

I'm in agreement with Lokea and others who are not interested in raffles. In a raffle players with a large number of accounts will always have the advantage. Maybe an argument could be made that it's fair since they pay more each month, but it's no way to make the majority of players happy on the whole. Certainly not happy making for new or returning players. And it takes away long held traditions and fun, like back when placing houses wasn't overrun by cheaters.
I am in fact interested in raffles/lottery as a solution.  It's auctions that I'm against.

Right now, this is what happens with an IDOC:

IDOC -> Botters/Scripters Place -> Wealthy Players Buy House

Under an auction, this is what happens with an IDOC:

IDOC -> Wealthy Players Win House

All that's changed under an auction system is that the botters/scripters are cut out of the process, and in fact, given that the botters/scripters are wealthy, they may very well end up with the house anyways. And yes, plenty of them will transition from 100% profit under the current system to only 25% profit, because it's ultimately still free money to them, and we've seen them change their business models multiple times over the past couple of decades. Regular/returning/casual players never have a chance.

Under a raffle system, limit the number of tickets to one per account, and then it doesn't matter if the people we are talking about have 50 accounts, if there's a thousand accounts that enter, there's 950 other accounts that have an actual decent shot at winning the plot.

I lived through the New Magincia raffle/lottery, and there was no limit on the amount of tickets and whether you were doing the 2,000 or 10,000 gold tickets, but we all at least had a fighting chance at getting something.

You can read the analysis and results for yourself, straight from the UO devs:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110822221846/http://mythicmktg.fileburst.net/uo/media/pdfs/Magincia%20Lottery%20Analysis.pdf

And that analysis is insane - they broke it down by actual individual plots. There were later comments from the devs discussing how quickly the gold that was taken out of the game for the lottery was replaced, as well as what they would have done different, but I can't find those - they were in response to some player questions on maybe Stratics or UO Forums (neither of which did  a good job of archiving their old stuff with archive.org).

Anyways, I'd prefer a ticket system (even as high as 100,000 gold for a ticket), just with the caveat that it's one ticket per account.  At least all players would have a better chance at an IDOC than the current system, or a system with the highest bid.
#95
LilyGrace said:

On the other hand I don't think it's fair to keep hammering at Atlantic players, telling them in effect they've made their beds with choosing to play and live on Atlantic. I read that all the time, like there should be a punishment for playing there. You can't fault someone for wanting to play on a highly populated shard.

It's not so much about hammering at Atlantic players, but I understand and have seen that mentality, and maybe my comments came across that way, in which case I apologize - I was treated very nicely on Atlantic when I poked around upon my return (I was even given gold and some gear, which I was able to pass on to another returning player whose original home was Atlantic, unlike mine).

It's just that it is really an Atlantic-only problem, so any major solutions should be confined to Atlantic's situation.

Are there bots/scripters placing IDOCs on other shards?  I have no doubt, I've occasionally seen such people hit IDOCs on LS (I haven't seen any in Fel doing that but definitely saw it on Tram) and I know there are a few flippers on LS that try to acquire high-value spots and try to drive the prices up. I'm sure it happens with other shards, and I'm sure high-interest plots (castles and prime keeps) draw the botters/scripters out.

But when researching keep and castle spots and prices on non-Atlantic shards for my own keep/castle acquisition, I saw plenty of high-value properties going for months without selling and prices being dropped.  Properties that would go for multiple plat on Atlantic would sell in the low to medium hundreds.  

The reason being that Vendor Search means a lot of us no longer care about "prime" spots in Luna, and on every non-Atlantic shard, any of us could easily place a max-storage customizable plot, and on most we can even go place an 18x18 or a tower if we spent a little time looking (one could do it in mere minutes on most shards).  We are not faced with an Atlantic problem of paying somebody an insane amount of gold for a decent-sized spot with the alternative of placing a 7x7 or 8x8 like it's UO in 1998  There's even keep spots available on a lot of shards in Fel and even Tram, and when I came back and surveyed all of the shards, I even saw some Luna plots on the smaller shards.  

TLDR: non-Atlantic shards don't have the issue of a lot of prime or max-storage real estate being held by flippers/realtors/scripters/botters, so any solutions should leave us out.
#96
LilyGrace said:

That said, I think there is a fix for it, but lots of people don't want that either. If moving in-between shards and shard bound equipment didn't make things so restrictive, players would be able find housing elsewhere and go where they want to fight, join groups, take part in events, etc.

And with that said, I've come to see how the ability to move that freely between shards could disrupt established, happy, healthy player communities. That would not be a good thing. I'm speaking strictly regarding moving between shards, not at all about shard bound items. Shard bound items, without a means to turn items account bound, blows. I mean really, really blows. Like, takes a trip to Tijuana gets all liquored up and blows hard. 

Anywho, I'm guessing multiple people have probably already suggested this so, forgive me if I'm repeating something that's already been hashed out...

Why not create satellite shards that are just for housing? Same rules apply, only one house per account. You have a satellite moongate that brings you to your shard's Housing Only area. No mobs there to fight. You can't farm resources. You can't train skills there. You can put your house and all that goes into running and enjoying it there, deco, utilitarian items, resources, etc., including vendors.

What are the down sides? There very well may be things that make this a bad idea. Like what? Off the top of my head it seems doable and a good solution to housing shortages on some shards.
This I can mostly agree with you on!  The only real solution to housing shortages is not trying to manipulate the price of housing, but instead the amount of housing.  I live in what was/is one of the fastest growing cities in the US, and I see the literal issue of housing being bought up by flippers/corporations and the impact as more people move in play out every day. I see near-by apartment complexes having to maintain or drop their rates when new projects open up.

Rather than creating new land masses, I wonder if we could tap into some other solutions:
  1. Increased storage for smaller homes. I saw item storage driving a lot of people wanting larger properties. I've even known people who acquired keeps/castles because they needed the storage.  What if a 9x9 up through a 14x14 gave you the same storage as a 15x15 through 18x18?  What if you could get the same storage in a 17x17 or 18x18 or tower as a keep? Could the servers handle it?  I would think so, as long as they aren't loading the contents of every home whenever a player shows up outside (there maybe a toggle in the EC).
  2. Instanced housing in the cities? Would a lot of people be willing to move into Sosaria's cities if they had decent storage?  Vendors would be tricky but maybe handled through Vendor Search or through a better/more condensed situation like New Magincia's stalls - a farmer's market of sorts that doesn't load unless you step inside. I have a home that borders a Zento wall/gate, and I love seeing NPCs around and being able to run over to the bank or various workshops. Wouldn't it be interesting if people lived in the actual cities, lived in homes that matched the local architecture and right next door to NPCs and NPC shops, and not just the Luna situation where you get beautiful homes that could fit into a medieval setting placed right next to Ye Olde Borg Monstrosities.  I would move to Britain in a heartbeat (West Britain, mind you, I'm a refined person!). It would bring life back to the cities.
  3. Let's talk about moongates - I think I mentioned it in another post, but I'll try to get a thread started about an old article form July of 1997. The original UO devs intended for people on different shards to be able to play together by simply going through a moongate to a shard and meeting up with their friends/guilds from other shards.  Right now, cross-shard play is limited to players with plenty of real-life money to burn, people who are making money from moving goods between shards (which screws with economies on all shards and lets a few people have an outsized influence on things) or people who have paid accounts of at least 14 years old (thankfully non-consecutive).  What if say shards were clustered based on region they originated in?  The Asian shards were clustered, the Pacific, Central, and Atlantic shards were clustered together, etc.  Clustered, not merged.  I as an LS player couldn't hop over to Atlantic or Pacific, but if I were on say Atlantic, what if I could easily move to Catskills, while still hanging on Atlantic when I want to? I could find a decent house on Catskills, and still get everything I need supplies or goods-wise on multiple shards.  If I'm a vendor, I'm able to sell to all kinds of shoppers from other shards. If I'm needing people to go hit up a dungeon with, I will be able to find them if I have multiple shards I can visit/work with, etc.  The possibilities are endless, and it could bring life back to smaller shards, while reducing the housing crunch on Atlantic.  Are the cross-shard traders going to be mad?  Maybe (but they'll have more shards to access and not be paying a lot).  Could there be a drop in revenue from shard transfers?  Maybe, but if you limit people to just a few shards within their shard's original geographic/timezone designation, there will see be costs that can be recouped.  I think player engagement would go up.  I would certainly be shard-hopping, as would many others.  Events like the Riftborne/Mistas thing woudl be easier for those on smaller shards, etc., etc.  I'll post the article later, it was interesting in general as a snapshot of UO in mid-1997 before it launched.
#97
Girrrrl, or guyyyyyy, that is a lot! lol

More storage is always a welcome thing. I think it could be a strain if players across the board are allowed to cram more contents into all size housing by way of additional lock-downs and secures. Perhaps offering players more storage in a way that functions like your bank box might be a better solution.

I'm not saying allowing for more containers and lock-downs in houses would necessarily put a strain on servers. That said, I think it could put a crimp in how players enjoy looking at their game world landscape. I wouldn't want to be forced to click the button to not allow house contents to load because running through heavily populated areas has become a lag-fest. I enjoy looking at players home builds and decorating ideas too much to not see houses load with their contents. I don't have a great computer, Grim!  😂  

Regarding moongates and shard hopping. I've pressed hard in posts about allowing players to move around more freely. I pressed for allowing all players to go to all shards any time they want. It's a double edged sword for reasons I didn't really always understand, but see more clearly now. 

I think there's a happy medium. I think solutions for allowing players to move around more freely, opening up opportunities for spontaneous game play, while not negatively impacting established player communities, is to find ways to make farming less appealing. Reduce the need some segments of the population, myself included at times, have in needing what other players farm. 

I do think 14 years for shard shields is too restrictive. I think the age requirement should be lowered. More importantly, allow players to turn their shard bound items into account bound items. This still wouldn't make gold farming go away but really? Who cares? It would almost certainly reduce the number of players farming drops on multiple shards during these ToT type events. Why should we depend on power gamers farming drops on multiple shards in order to rebuild suits on other shards we want to visit?

Let us earn our drops and prizes and let us keep our prizes when we want to go visit another shard. This sounds so much better to me than trying to move a gimped character around because you had to leave your suit behind. Now you're dependent on players who farmed enough that they're selling these sought after items on the shard you want to move to or visit. This not only seems unnecessary to me, it seems unfair and punitive. I'm being redundant here, I'm to tired to fix it. Read it twice! lol

The clustered shards thing? I don't see that making players happy. Telling east and west coast players they can't play together? That sounds terrible to me.

Housing and IDOCs
Instanced housing sounds intriguing. It wouldn't be to my liking because I really like to decorate my houses. But I can see how for those not interested in playing around with house building and decorating it could be fun to go to your "apartment" so to speak in a city. Maybe something like this could be tied into an extra storage idea. Pledge to a particular town and you have access to your storage unit.  😂

Regarding IDOC and raffles etc. At this point you hate to see houses with anything in them fall because it means another player is gone. With how changed the IDOC scene is now, resources go poof, vet rewards go poof, the biggest interest has to be the available land for housing that'll be created. 

If devs gave us more land for housing it really pulls the teeth out of those who cheat to place, no? Wouldn't a moongate leading to a large housing area pretty much put them out of business? I don't think additional housing space it something needed only for Atlantic. Though they surely need it most. 

There are other shards with a lot less population that have players who have so many accounts they've managed over the years to snap up pretty much all the castle and keep spots. There's no opportunity for others to place any of the bigger homes. Most players want an opportunity to set down a keep or castle. There has to be a limit even for those folks, no? If we're given more land are these folks going to buy even more accounts and snap up the new lands? I don't think so. 

So far it seems the solutions devs are rolling out, to curb scripters, ends up being punishing to average players. The timer on the house placement tool for instance. Everyone has been telling devs for ages that this isn't stopping the cheaters it's only hurting honest players.

Why not come at this from the other side and see if it works out any better? Instead of placing restrictions on housing, shard travel, and access to the items we've earned, why not expand access to these things for all players? Give us more land for housing until competing with cheaters placing houses becomes a non issue. Let us keep our shard bound items on our accounts and we won't need what the farmers of drops and shard bound items have to offer.
#98

More storage might be doable - UO has a lot more processing power behind it than it did 20 years ago. The idea of something like an extended bank box is interesting - I know I have plenty of items that I don't need immediate access to at my house, but that I'm keeping for one reason or another. Make it a one-time fee and I'm there (but not too expensive, the $20 for 20% upgrade is rough).  

The original UO devs intended for players to move around between shards freely, since people would become friends out of the game through places such as forums, but might be on different shards.  It also alleviates the housing problem for those who play on Atlantic, and it might make things open to a lot more players who prefer to spend their time being merchants and craftspeople.

I mentioned clustering shards by their original geographic regions and not letting them shard hop just anywhere, because I recognize that free travel between all shards will hurt UO's revenue.  Obviously, as UO goes along and more players hit the 14-year mark, there will be less and less purchases of shard transfer tokens. If you keep some kind of situation where paid tokens are necessary, hopefully the accountants would be happy.

Maybe a happy medium in place of letting us freely move around would be 500 sovereigns for a transfer token.  I won't pay $20 to go shop on Atlantic (I'm weeks away from 14 years and several shields anyways) - but I'll pay somebody in-game to get me stuff on Atlantic and bring it to me when they move around the shards using their vet shield tokens.  Nor wil I pay $20 to go play with friends on another shard (I'll just use a weaker toon that I have already on that shard). Moot point since I'm about to cash in half-a-dozen vet rewards on shield tokens, but prior to now, I would have easily been paying $5 a pop to move between shards a few times a month prior to now.

Drop the prices of a shard transfer down though, and I bet many of us who aren't at 14 years or more would gladly pay it. And I do think if we had a more accessible shard transfer system, it would cut way down on people who complain on Atlantic about no housing - if they could place on Catskills or Chessie, but still easily shop or play on Atlantic for some events, many would probably take it. Smaller shards would see an increase in activity as well. It would also improve the economies a bit - make things more available on more shards, etc.

I agree on the 14 years for shard shields is too restrictive.  Make it 10 or even 5.  I see way too many quality-of-life benefits or items in UO that are locked behind either account age restrictions or were tied to specific events that happened years ago. They would benefit so many players, which would increase overall player happiness.  But in this case, the shield tokens would eat into UO's revenue (which leads me back to 500 sovereigns for a simple transfer).

Personally, with IDOCs, I feel sleazy doing them when they are clearly somebody who had a billing issue or rage-quit and left everything, because it absolutely is the loss of a UO player, who at some point cared about UO.  I personally think they should do like other MMORPGs (World of Warcraft in particular) and package everything up in a crate to be retrieved by the player later on and just let the plot fall. I bet a lot more players would have come back over the years if they didn't lose a lot in an IDOC.

I do agree with a lot of what you say, at least in spirit. I am surprised the devs aren't giving us more incentives to give them more money - if it was 500 sovereigns for a one-way transfer token, I would imagine a lot of players who don't have vet shields would snap them up in a heartbeat. Heck, if they weren't account bound, I'd buy a couple through the Ultima Store and sell them in-game, and I'd bet others would as well.
#99
It's way too late to shut the barn door transfer shields have screwed the pooch and there's no recovering 
#100
You may remember back in 99 or 2000..not sure of the year, people were asking for "green acres" to be opened up for housing.  Clearly this is not a new issue and in modern days seems to be only only an issue on Atlantic.

Since Atlantic is the server to go to, maybe "instanced" housing would work.  If you played LOTRO you have an idea of what I am trying to articulate.

Anyway, if you are complaining about one person controlling the housing market, I share your pain but aren't they operating within the game mechanics?

If not, then BS needs to ban them.
#101
Rocko said:
You may remember back in 99 or 2000..not sure of the year, people were asking for "green acres" to be opened up for housing.  Clearly this is not a new issue and in modern days seems to be only only an issue on Atlantic.

Since Atlantic is the server to go to, maybe "instanced" housing would work.  If you played LOTRO you have an idea of what I am trying to articulate.

Anyway, if you are complaining about one person controlling the housing market, I share your pain but aren't they operating within the game mechanics?

If not, then BS needs to ban them.

  1. At the current development speed, we are talking about 5 to 10 years for instanced housing.
  2. They would not want that. I can single-handedly point to at least 20 people that keeps paying their monthly subscription even though they did net login in the last 2 years. If UO ever adds instanced housing, they will lose more than 50% of their revenue.

> aren't they operating within the game mechanics?
No they are not, hence the problem. 

> If not, then BS needs to ban them.
They did not ban anyone until now despite the fact that the problem is known, and the person causing the problem is knows. On the other hand, every single topic about this problem on this forum was closed with one excuse or another. You can find topics about this exact issue with this exact person, going back many years on this forum. All closed. They allowed this one to remain after closing the initial post from NikonUS.


#102
I am adding this for everyone to see:


This is the EXTREMELY WELL KNOWN IDOC abuser. He is selling 10+ houses at the official discord.

Yesterday, I added a comment same as below to this chat room at the official discord:



Today, this comment is deleted from his room. Discord shows list of people that interacted with a post room at the right side of the screen. Here is the screenshot of people that interacted with that room. Can you spot who in that list has the right to delete my post? I can only see a single name that makes sense!





Anybody wants to discuss why our warnings about this guy are disappearing from the official discord? 

To be clear, I am not calling anybody anything. I am just trying to figure out why our warnings about an EXTREMELY WELL KNOWN EXPLOIT/SCRIPT user keeps disappearing from the official discord? I am just trying to understand what is going on. 
#103
See if you call the police and they say they are investigating you don't get to help or prosecute the alleged criminal forget everything from Mesanna time give Kyronix 6 months until then just be quiet 
#104
Grimbeard said:
See if you call the police and they say they are investigating you don't get to help or prosecute the alleged criminal forget everything from Mesanna time give Kyronix 6 months until then just be quiet 

Did you really understand what I am saying in my post before you reply? 
#105
Grimbeard said:
See if you call the police and they say they are investigating you don't get to help or prosecute the alleged criminal forget everything from Mesanna time give Kyronix 6 months until then just be quiet 

Did you really understand what I am saying in my post before you reply? 
1000% but Kyronix said they will address it he has 100% done everything he's said he'd do give him time 
#106
Grimbeard said:
1000% but Kyronix said they will address it he has 100% done everything he's said he'd do give him time 

You and I are living in different realities my friend. All he did was give a verbal warning and another 6 months to the scripter that has been exploiting the game mechanics for many years now. 

  • Why does that guy, and that guy alone, get a verbal warning for something that would be immediate ban for all of us? 
  • Why does that guy get to have his sales channel cleaned up after a verbal warning telling him to stop? 

Wake me up when any real world action is taken. 
#107
I am adding this for everyone to see:

This is the EXTREMELY WELL KNOWN IDOC abuser. He is selling 10+ houses at the official discord.

Yesterday, I added a comment same as below to this chat room at the official discord:

Today, this comment is deleted from his room. Discord shows list of people that interacted with a post room at the right side of the screen. Here is the screenshot of people that interacted with that room. Can you spot who in that list has the right to delete my post? I can only see a single name that makes sense!

Anybody wants to discuss why our warnings about this guy are disappearing from the official discord? 

To be clear, I am not calling anybody anything. I am just trying to figure out why our warnings about an EXTREMELY WELL KNOWN EXPLOIT/SCRIPT user keeps disappearing from the official discord? I am just trying to understand what is going on. 
Insane man. I seriously didn't think it could this bad so fast after Mesanna stepped down but this is the reality now. I can't believe one of the biggest fundamental parts of this game, the most unique and often the reason most play, pay, and stick around, is housing. And it's totally f**ked on Atlantic.

How is this still going on in 2025?



#108
username said:

How is this still going on in 2025?


I don't know, this is why I am asking questions. 

In the last roadmap broadcast, I expected the devs to say something like "In a week, we will look into this.". Then in a week, I would expect them to ban all of the accounts and burn all of houses. 

The last thing I expected was a verbal warning and some time for the criminal to sell remaining houses or correct his behavior on his own. 
#109
Kyronix is aware of this situation, he doesn't need telling daily
Kyronix is NOT going to tell you what he plans to do about it, because that would be forewarning those doing it. 
I am locking this thread now. Please do not re-open it. 
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