PvP and VvV

No one will ever be happy you kill them maybe you need thicker skin if it bothers you ? I'd suggest you tell them to get gud 

Grimbeard said:

No one will ever be happy you kill them maybe you need thicker skin if it bothers you ? I'd suggest you tell them to get gud 

Garret said:

Grimbeard said:

No one will ever be happy you kill them maybe you need thicker skin if it bothers you ? I'd suggest you tell them to get gud 

No no, it doesn't bother me, I just want to understand people's position, they say that pvp steals their limited play time and NL has weird pvp rules, so I want to hear officially that pvp is part of the content, and not just someone's way to make fun/grief of someone.

It's there and working as intended but no one likes to be killed and if the developers have again placed things pwm players need in a pvp area forcing them to fight (ps on production shards idk on NL)this will continue 

Unfortunately for us all, The boss spawns in NL are all VvV only ,or in regular shards the only way to get power scrolls for your characters and pets. Soo we have this. People who enjojy PvP create characters to do so. Unfortunately for us "Trammies" who venture forth to glean what we can from PvP areas have to consent  to The VvV rules, or not do damage in NL boss spawns. So, we are forced. Most use tamers who are ill equipped to PvP. No resist, no parry, no defensive skills at all. one at most and parry needs stamina to work . 
So VvV to me means you are either a Victimizer, Victim, or Vigilante'.  This puts tamers and most warriors in the victim department due to the skill build necessary to be that class of character. 
Pets can be pulled off and left stupid somewhere leaving the tamer fairly defenseless.
Sorry to say not many in NL want to play your game and play the Victim. So, we hunt in groups and will all kill you on sight. 
Now, who is the victim? It's VvV working at its best

Pameleigha said:

Unfortunately for us all, The boss spawns in NL are all VvV only ,or in regular shards the only way to get power scrolls for your characters and pets. Soo we have this. People who enjojy PvP create characters to do so. Unfortunately for us "Trammies" who venture forth to glean what we can from PvP areas have to consent  to The VvV rules, or not do damage in NL boss spawns. So, we are forced. Most use tamers who are ill equipped to PvP. No resist, no parry, no defensive skills at all. one at most and parry needs stamina to work . 
So VvV to me means you are either a Victimizer, Victim, or Vigilante'.  This puts tamers and most warriors in the victim department due to the skill build necessary to be that class of character. 
Pets can be pulled off and left stupid somewhere leaving the tamer fairly defenseless.
Sorry to say not many in NL want to play your game and play the Victim. So, we hunt in groups and will all kill you on sight. 
Now, who is the victim? It's VvV working at its best

In NL you have 99% non pvp content free from ganking and you bring your pve character in to this 1% pvp area and complain about been killed ? is it fair? nothing specific can be looted for pve character in this pvp zone that can't be looted outside of it btw.

Garret said:

Pameleigha said:

Unfortunately for us all, The boss spawns in NL are all VvV only ,or in regular shards the only way to get power scrolls for your characters and pets. Soo we have this. People who enjojy PvP create characters to do so. Unfortunately for us "Trammies" who venture forth to glean what we can from PvP areas have to consent  to The VvV rules, or not do damage in NL boss spawns. So, we are forced. Most use tamers who are ill equipped to PvP. No resist, no parry, no defensive skills at all. one at most and parry needs stamina to work . 
So VvV to me means you are either a Victimizer, Victim, or Vigilante'.  This puts tamers and most warriors in the victim department due to the skill build necessary to be that class of character. 
Pets can be pulled off and left stupid somewhere leaving the tamer fairly defenseless.
Sorry to say not many in NL want to play your game and play the Victim. So, we hunt in groups and will all kill you on sight. 
Now, who is the victim? It's VvV working at its best

In NL you have 99% non pvp content free from ganking and you bring your pve character in to this 1% pvp area and complain about been killed ? is it fair? nothing specific can be looted for pve character in this pvp zone that can't be looted outside of it btw.

No one CHOOSES the developers force pvp on unwilling people Biatch at them

I'm not complaining about it, I am just killing you before you kill me. Isn't that PvP? Or is it you just want to victimize the weak?  Like you did first time, just before the boss spawned and you went around killing the people who got the spawn to the boss level, so they could not rez in time to get rights to killing the boss? How is that even fair to you?
We are forced to play your game, so we are. 

Pameleigha said:

I'm not complaining about it, I am just killing you before you kill me. Isn't that PvP? Or is it you just want to victimize the weak?  Like you did first time, just before the boss spawned and you went around killing the people who got the spawn to the boss level, so they could not rez in time to get rights to killing the boss? How is that even fair to you?
We are forced to play your game, so we are. 

You enter pvp zone with the worning! Why are you not prepared for this scenario ? is it my fault ?

because when it takes 10 seconds to cast resurrect and someone blindsides you, there is no preparation is one scenario and exaclty when you killed my character while resurrecting a guildmate. 

Also, you have been player killing at banks iouside of the VvV area when people are still orange and were clueless they could be killed outside of the VvV areas.

So, now we are prepared and have no mercy on you as you didn't with us. Again, isn't that PvP how you would play it? 

And really your questions show how truly lame this conversation is. You are just complaining because you are not winning this time. Just whining.

Pameleigha said:

because when it takes 10 seconds to cast resurrect and someone blindsides you, there is no preparation is one scenario and exaclty when you killed my character while resurrecting a guildmate. 

Also, you have been player killing at banks iouside of the VvV area when people are still orange and were clueless they could be killed outside of the VvV areas.

So, now we are prepared and have no mercy on you as you didn't with us. Again, isn't that PvP how you would play it? 

And really your questions show how truly lame this conversation is. You are just complaining because you are not winning this time. Just whining.

It wasn't me in town. And i didn't die ? im not complaining i just want to hear is pvp is part of the game or we should remove it bcz ppls think that is always unfair.

Free PvP in a open world is out of the question on NL. The only option for pvp is that outpost one. You see, miners, LJs and any kind of gatherer have an imaginary no bottom backpack that they hoard resources. Those resources doesnt weight, nor count as items in your backback and if you die you don drop them on your corpse. There is no option to be a thieve, so NL is Uo without freedom. Is a kid sandbox for babies, so they can play/toy together without being hurt.

Harassing people at champ spawns isn't going to win you any friends (Saying there is a warning is a silly hide behind for PKing people). If anything it will ostracize you and make your play experience worse, but I do understand some people thrive and lust for feeling like they are the victim when they have done horrible things to others and suffer the consequences so I can't get into your mindset if that's your fetish or not. If you want to PK so bad and be an asshole to others there are other shards set up specifically for that type of play, but usually those are for good players.

Thaeyde said:

Harassing people at champ spawns isn't going to win you any friends Garret. If anything it will ostracize you and make your play experience worse. If you want to PK so bad and be an asshole there are other shards set up specifically for that type of play.

I can't do it outside of the VvV PvP spawn zone. When you enter this PvP zone you have warning about that, why do you call me harraser ? and asshole ? i'm not rude to any one, i'm polite and calm.

Garret said:

Thaeyde said:

Harassing people at champ spawns isn't going to win you any friends Garret. If anything it will ostracize you and make your play experience worse. If you want to PK so bad and be an asshole there are other shards set up specifically for that type of play.

I can't do it outside of the VvV PvP spawn zone. When you enter this PvP zone you have warning about that, why do you call me harraser ? and asshole ? i'm not rude to any one, i'm polite and calm.

It is what it is. If someone doesn't engage you when they are trying to do a PVM event it's not being polite. It's a PVM event and people who go to grief people aren't engaging in pvp, they are PKing and harassing. 

Do we have a shortage of consensual PVP areas? Yes, I wish we had an arena system or 1v1 duel pits. It doesn't change what attacking a PVM event is though. 

Overall is this an issue that the devs created? Yeah, but also NL isn't a "PVP server" and isn't really designed with that in mind. Overall, if you do want competition and PVP you definitely should look at the servers that offer that as a primary option. 

idk if its me but everyone is crying about production shards being PvP the main focus and it is not. Uo Had a lot of pvp and pks and grief in the early years, nowadays there is no more pk. Ah but if you are trying to do champion spawns to get scrolls to train your pets, you have to deal with the fact you gonna be raided, for a grp of pks, or not, it doesnt matter anymore. 

New legacy was the only possible way to bring back the world with pvp and pvm not being apart on 2 facets. So all those ppl talking about dont wanting to pvp, you already have it on production shards. New Legacy is supposed to bring new players and returning players a new enviroment, but they made this enviroment capped. You cant be an assassin, you cant be a crafter, you cant be a thief, you only have 2 or 3 paths, since crafter doesnt count for anything besides repairing and leveling the cogiarium system wich is pretty bad. 

New legacy was the chance to bring usuless skills a revamp and bring them to relevancy, it could be a developer playground to come up with ideas on how to revamp the skills system and maybe bring it as content to production. But now, they opted for a pokemon game inside UO.

Felipovisk, I am talking about servers I am not going to mention on the official UO server board. If you were to go to Reddit on the UO subreddit you would find what I am talking about regarding PvP servers. For the sake of respect towards the devs and the official nature of these boards I won't bring their names up specifically. It's those servers that I mean when I say PVP oriented, which some very much are.

For a round 1 of the server, it's not bad. Could it be better? Yeah, but as a player who hasn't played in 20 years, I am personally enjoying it and having some great nostalgia and look forward with where they are going with it. 

I hope they do make it a playground of fun testing stuff that stays isolated, but if a huge success they may implement in to production like Diablo does with their seasonal content.

This almost as good as Siege drama 😂

 
  I still not get the point that spawn is PVM encounter. You have warning about that is not and you have to press accept that you understand the risk.
  And every one says me that i should go retail or siege if i want PvP but same i can say for PvMs there is a lot safer and more conter for PvMs in retail shards?  Trammel ? 25 years of content?  why don't you go there insted ? Mby bcz you like NL mechanics as i like ? Everyone trying to play tolerance card but nobody care about my opinion so you metter and me no ? 

Garret said:

 
  I still not get the point that spawn is PVM encounter. You have warning about that is not and you have to press accept that you understand the risk.
  And every one says me that i should go retail or siege if i want PvP but same i can say for PvMs there is a lot safer and more conter for PvMs in retail shards?  Trammel ? 25 years of content?  why don't you go there insted ? Mby bcz you like NL mechanics as i like ? Everyone trying to play tolerance card but nobody care about my opinion so you metter and me no ? 

Even there was tram there they are forced by the developers to go into a pvp area to get things they need for their play style rather than another carrot used to draw pvm players they should have made pvp fun enough without victims 

Garret said:

 Everyone trying to play tolerance card but nobody care about my opinion so you metter and me no ? 

At no point is anyone saying you can't do what you're doing. People are just saying it's bad manners. At no point can anyone stop you from harassing people on NL. It just comes with the risk of ostracizing yourself when you are killing and harassing a small community. You don't get rez'd, you don't get trades, you don't get heals, and in general you don't get help. 

You can absolutely play the evil character, and absolutely no one can stop you. I think everyone, including myself, are trying to help point out that by doing that on a PVM centric server in PVM events will generate malice from those just trying to enjoy the game. The fact PVP is turned on in the champ spawns sucks, and it sucks on production they only exist in Fel (When they were created over 20 years ago though they were trying to revive Fel though. If they were designed today you wouldn't see that content in Fel, and honestly it's probably a reason UO in general lost ground in the MMO market). You can also see that they tried to pivot away from the high end value monsters being in PvP zones with AoS after the developers realized their mistake and started to hemorrhage players.

PVM is incredibly popular, and yes no consequence consenting PVP is incredibly popular. Forcing non-consenting PVP is something that wasn't even really successful in UO which is why they pivoted to Trammel so quickly.

People want you to enjoy the game. I want you to enjoy the game. I also want you to find a home that fits your play style which is why I recommended servers that would cater to more of the PvP/harassing PK playstyle for you that you seek.

My last comment on this topic. I don't hate you for being a PK. I just don't ever want to interact or help you in game if you were to continue the behavior. Just like you can choose your interactions in game, so can I. I hope that at least sheds a little light onto the subject for you. 

Thaeyde said:

Garret said:

 Everyone trying to play tolerance card but nobody care about my opinion so you metter and me no ? 

At no point is anyone saying you can't do what you're doing. People are just saying it's bad manners. 

Bad maners is to PvP in PvP zone ?

Its not bad manners to pvp in a pvp zone.  Its totally fine. 

Kaz said:

Its not bad manners to pvp in a pvp zone.  Its totally fine. 

But you have to keep in mind; when you kill someone, theyre not going to like it.  In turn, that player will view you as the murderer, the PK, the villain; regardless of if its a pvp zone or not.  Its human nature.  Clicking “I accept” on the gump doesnt cancel human nature, and its naive to expect people to be friendly with you after you have killed them. 

A true dreadlord wouldnt care about being “cancelled”.   

BTW 
It is not possible to drop karma lower then Evil... at least i didn't find any methodots to become dread lord. Stuck on 9901 minus karma.

Garret said:

Kaz said:

Its not bad manners to pvp in a pvp zone.  Its totally fine. 

But you have to keep in mind; when you kill someone, theyre not going to like it.  In turn, that player will view you as the murderer, the PK, the villain; regardless of if its a pvp zone or not.  Its human nature.  Clicking “I accept” on the gump doesnt cancel human nature, and its naive to expect people to be friendly with you after you have killed them. 

A true dreadlord wouldnt care about being “cancelled”.   

BTW 
It is not possible to drop karma lower then Evil... at least i didn't find any methodots to become dread lord. Stuck on 9901 minus karma.

Bragging about killing nonpvp noobs on NL like kissing your sister but you go evil dude

Garret said:

Kaz said:

Its not bad manners to pvp in a pvp zone.  Its totally fine. 

But you have to keep in mind; when you kill someone, theyre not going to like it.  In turn, that player will view you as the murderer, the PK, the villain; regardless of if its a pvp zone or not.  Its human nature.  Clicking “I accept” on the gump doesnt cancel human nature, and its naive to expect people to be friendly with you after you have killed them. 

A true dreadlord wouldnt care about being “cancelled”.   

BTW 
It is not possible to drop karma lower then Evil... at least i didn't find any methodots to become dread lord. Stuck on 9901 minus karma.

I think this will be like OG Ultima Online where you need to lock your Karma before you've done even one good thing or you'll never make Dread or at least before the Shattering. 

Bragging about killing nonpvp noobs on NL like kissing your sister but you go evil dude

That is why they have the saying, "Like shooting fish in a barrel". It's for failures who can't compete on an even field. 

I actually had a great time in Despise today, even though I died three times! You hit like a truck with that bow 

One thing that gets frustrating as a mage is the spell-casting delay—if you try to cast your next spell too quickly after the first, it ends up making you wait even longer. The delay feels ridiculously long, and the more you push to cast, the more it seems to punish you. I’ll just have to adjust my timing and work around it, I guess.

After 27 years of UO, if the Devs haven’t smoothed out the casting mechanics for Magery, I doubt it’s ever getting "fixed." Maybe the delay is meant to balance out melee misses? Who knows.

Either way, it was a blast today — looking forward to more fun soon! 

Dragor said

After 27 years of UO, if the Devs haven’t smoothed out the casting mechanics for Magery, I doubt it’s ever getting "fixed." Maybe the delay is meant to balance out melee misses? Who knows.

Either way, it was a blast today — looking forward to more fun soon! 

  I'm glad that you responded adequately and I'm glad that you got a good surge of adrenaline and pleasure, this is what really gives strong emotions, when for the first time you see that they are running to kill you (in the game) and your heart starts beating faster! A weak player will be upset, but a strong one will say I'll come next time and kick his ass - the right reaction!

I really like those ideas. I was thinking—maybe to help with balance, they could remove the delay that kicks in after you cast a spell. Once a spell is cast, you should be able to move right into the next one. The casting time itself already serves as the balancing factor, so adding an extra delay afterward feels unnecessary and even a bit unfair. But hey, what can you do aside from adapt?

The other thing I was considering was just spamming disarm on you. Not sure how much of a difference it would've made, but I’ve always found it a bit cheesy. Still, I might have to resort to it just to stay alive. 

Either way, it was a lot of fun, I look forward to next time 

It seems there are only 2 types of murders. 

1. The noob - I remember early on 1 corp por taking out my character. I didn't even seen him because he was not red yet. So it was just a guy trying to go red so he was still blue and just flagged. This was early early days so everyone was kinda going to the same areas to fight monsters to earn gold and skill but because 1 guy got his magery up to 60-65 and now can just EB all the noob warriors. That is really the crux. Should I be forced to interact with murderers in order to train or obtain certain items? I think a lot of pvp solutions are geared to solving that. There definitely should be more ways to get stat scrolls.

2. The gank - once we start getting some parity in strength of characters then we introduced the gank. This could go both ways. There were gangs of red and blues. Almost no matter how strong your guy is, he is not going to withstand a few mana dumps and maybe a dexxer or two. Of course, for years I brough an archer and I could hit with AP or really the best support was dismount cause once I knocked you off your mount the mob would get you. A red may run around a bit and some really good players could fight off a gank for a while but the dismount typically ended all the nonsense. Then, of course, the red rezzes and brings back his buddies. 

It does seem like back then and even today when I see a few pvp fights that a 1v1 usually only declares a victor because one character is outmatched and we can see that from the get-go. If they are more even character strengths, we actually almost just get a stalemate until one can get a gank. It is a little like watching some WWE matches and just know how it's gonna play out. 

Lastly, South Park did a pker episode when the boys started playing WoW and they worked together and trained for a long time and finally killed the pker and I always found the funniest line was what one of them says right after they win, "Ok now we can start playing the game". What did you think you were doing the whole time? I think murderers are just part of a real ecosystem. I think there should just be more penalties for being red. Back in the day it was really only you can't go to towns and someone can't help you without becoming a criminal. I think you should have a npc task force that is a bit revenant-esque that will track these individuals into an inescapable event should they get found like just being guard ganked, having a trial, and/or possible execution. If the argument is travelling out into the world is full of peril then society also has corrections for that and I do get a little tired of playing the guy who has to dole out the justice or vengeance. The NPC should take care of that especially back in the day when we could report murderers and stuff. Not sure how all that works anymore. We used to cut up the bodies and drop the red's head off to a guard and get paid and we would protect a lot of places. I think the game system should help enacting justice and compensating players killed by murderers. 

I strongly agree with azuldemogogu's comment.

PK (Player Killing) was a very interesting attempt during the early era when Ultima Online was trying to simulate a real-world environment.

However, there is a major difference between PKs and general players.
PKs (PvPers) prepare specialized skill sets focused on PvP and are ready to ambush others, while general players mainly focus on PvM. Preparing for PvP significantly reduces their PvM efficiency, and having their hard-earned treasures stolen one-sidedly becomes a massive source of stress.

In the real world, crimes do not happen freely because law enforcement, criminal penalties, and other forms of social sanctions act as deterrents, allowing people to live their lives with a sense of safety.

In contrast, in NL’s PvP system — taking the example of Champion Spawns — everyone becomes an orange name under the customized VvV system, allowing unilateral attacks, and there are no penalties or disadvantages for the PKers.
This is not fair.

I want to enjoy the game, and I do not want to be constantly tormented by selfish PKers.

If one just wants to engage in PvP within NL system like topic starter, then the VvV system should be revised to its original form where PvP is only between consenting guilds, or alternatively, use the existing guild PvP system that is already implemented.

If open-world PvP is to be introduced as part of the ecosystem, then as Azuldemogogu suggested, PKers must face significant penalties. Since players in NL can only have two characters and the user base is small, relying solely on the player community to prepare PvP countermeasures is a difficult problem. Also, in the old era around 2000, the player community was large, and there were PK Killer organizations, but with the player base in 2025, that is a much harder reality.

Therefore, the game system itself should also include mechanisms for punishing PKers and protecting PvM players — for example, introducing "Wandering Guards" similar to Wandering Healers.

The game will inevitably decline if griefers increase and casual PvM becomes difficult.

Furthermore, when forcing a different gameplay experience upon players who are cooperating and enjoying PvM, just because "the system allows it" does not mean "the community will accept it."

Saying "the system allows it, so you must always be prepared" after hunting down PvM players, I feel it is extremely self-centered. Such PK players should be prepared to be disliked and criticized within the community.

Personally, I enjoyed the conversation with the old-school UO style of role-playing PKs.

Some old era PKs played as bandits, demanding you drop your belongings before attacking, or communities that role-played as Orcs. However, it is not enjoyable to always have to be prepared for random griefing PKers in NL while enjoying PvM.