The UO Forums are too heavily moderated

MacroPlanet 2024-01-09 12:42 #0

As I've become more involved in this community, I've observed that the Ultima Online forums appear to be more heavily moderated than other gaming or MMORPG forums. While I acknowledge the necessity of closing threads when they devolve into explicit language or border on illegal behavior, I've noticed instances where threads were closed due to what seemed like minor trolling, hardly warranting such action.

The UO community needs a platform where its members can freely express their thoughts on the game and discuss any concerns they may have. Unfortunately, it feels like these forums tend to shut down posts that engage in just that. The reasoning behind thread closures is sometimes unclear, leading to speculation that moderators might have pre-existing biases against specific players, automatically opting to close threads involving them.

I would strongly advise against this approach. Excessive moderation creates a rift between the moderation team, developers, and players. A more lenient stance, akin to the WoW forums, could be beneficial. There, critical posts about Blizzard and their games are allowed, with moderation only stepping in when the language becomes violent or abusive.

My personal recommendation is for the moderation team to reassess their level of interference with player opinions. Just because a statement is negative doesn't necessarily mean it warrants closure. Restraining your own player base doesn't reflect well and might strain the vital connection between the community and the developers.

Thoughts?

Mariah 2024-01-09 13:36 #1

The primary rule on this forum is treat other users with respect, when users turn on one another to insult and denigrate that rule is broken. Discuss the issues, by all means, but keep it impersonal.

MacroPlanet 2024-01-09 14:04 #2

Mariah said:

The primary rule on this forum is treat other users with respect, when users turn on one another to insult and denigrate that rule is broken. Discuss the issues, by all means, but keep it impersonal.

In my observation that has been far from the truth.

This post was closed for no reason and there did not seem to be any of the impersonal attacks: https://forum.uo.com/discussion/13609/atlantic-on-vacation#latest

This post was closed : https://forum.uo.com/discussion/13606/no-reason-to-stay-is-a-good-reason-to-go#latest

This post was closed because of some third-party client, “agenda” mention. I would argue to leave these kind of things up and just edit out any mention of a third-party client: https://forum.uo.com/discussion/13555/newsletter-17-reveals-a-core-problem#latest

This post was removed because they did not have a positive experience, most of the time when people have an issue with a game it’s not going to be a positive experience and so where are the people supposed to turn to discuss these issues? https://forum.uo.com/discussion/13522/has-broadsword-decided-to-let-uo-die#latest

These were just a couple of examples I found more recently. As stated above, these forms are heavily moderated, let the people of Ultima Online discuss Ultima Online. in my observations, discussions are mostly civil and don’t attack people,

Mariah 2024-01-09 14:21 #3

hmm, seems I forgot to submit my reply and reasons for locking after the 7 posts I removed on that first thread, I apologise for that.

Grimbeard 2024-01-09 14:25 #4

Mariah said:

The primary rule on this forum is treat other users with respect, when users turn on one another to insult and denigrate that rule is broken. Discuss the issues, by all means, but keep it impersonal.

One mod is fair and even handed the other let's personal feelings effect their judgment then the sugar trolling is not only allowed but encouraged then people like me frustrated with lack of communication etc act stupid and it's a poop show

Tim 2024-01-09 14:26 #5

I disagree for the most part Mariah is doing a good job.
Letting the same people rant that they don't like Broadsword policy and how they could do it better endlessly serves no purpose.
Other than drive other people away to form an echo chamber for the few.

Seth 2024-01-09 14:47 #6

Letting players voice be heard is the reason for a forum.

If the Dev just want to hear nice words then pls shut down this forum.

Go and sing praises to yourself when all paying customers are gone, let's see who pay your salary. This is a paid game.

Seth 2024-01-09 14:49 #7

I completely dislike hypocrites that doesn't help improve the game. ohh clicks is good, standing at same spot to harvest a reward was applauded just to make Dev happy. Why are we players paying to make the paid guy happy?

Arnold7 2024-01-09 17:31 #8

I don’t always agree with the reasoning given, assuming some is, for closing some of these threads. And, I think in a lot of threads on the same subject that continue to show all the time could be answered better by management just giving a general explanation of the problem before closing them (am starting once in awhile to see this now). But, I have to agree with Mariah’s first statement that, especially for some discussions taking place a few months ago, that a lot of times the discussions just turned into slugfests and should have been closed.

I think the responses to my discussion on the games biggest shard, Atlantic, being down indicated the shard was down for more than five hours. Think players deserved an explanation as to what happened from some one authorized to give one before closing the discussion. Think Larisa deserves an answer to her question about Origin too.

Mariah 2024-01-09 18:22 #9

I don't disagree @Arnold7 but any explanation will not appear here, if there is one, it will be posted on the main front page. A little patience may be required, because if, as I suspect, it was a cause not within their control, an amount of investigation and enquiry will be needed.

Urge 2024-01-09 23:29 #10

Guys...we have a community manager now to take the lashings.

HeavySmoker 2024-01-09 23:55 #11

Mariah said:

The primary rule on this forum is treat other users with respect, when users turn on one another to insult and denigrate that rule is broken. Discuss the issues, by all means, but keep it impersonal.

I respect the moderation. You've done a great job cleaning up a thread I was seeking help from and the trolls couldn't handle not bashing me due to taking their in game hostility into the forums, great job at keeping this place clean.

Merlin 2024-01-10 14:52 #12

I can speak from experience as a moderator on Stratics that it is a thankless job. Do not underestimate the non-sense that forum moderators have to tolerate behind the scenes with nasty PMs, obtrusive personalities, and always having to deal with accusations about fairness and rule enforcement.

The moderators here do as good a job here as possible in consideration with the mandate they've been given. Is this forum over moderated a bit? Perhaps, but it's likely been necessary. A year or so ago, argument could be made it wasn't being moderated enough. It's a fine line and there is no perfect formula to making the majority of the community happy.

There have been times I have logged in to see the entire front page full of threads by the same 2 or 3 trolls who are regurgitating the same small handful of complaints on repeat. You know what I end up doing? Hitting the back button and deciding not to participate or read through other topics. It's a turn off. That's probably the worst result the developers want, but I can speak for myself and many others that the exhaustion of forum trolls has hurt the perception of these boards significantly. Heavy moderation has been needed.

With a smaller (and older!) community like ours, the style of moderation required here is going to be different than what you would see somewhere such as for Elder Scrolls or WoW. Comparing our community to a game with 200k+ subs is probably not an apples to apples comparison.

Covfefe 2024-01-10 17:14 #13

Merlin said:

same small handful of complaints on repeat.

People shouldn't have to repeat a complaint.

Trying to claim that rubber banding is working as intended, is the biggest joke i have ever read on any game forum.

And makes everyone involved in the cover up, look like an idiot.

Grimbeard 2024-01-10 18:39 #14

Merlin said:

I can speak from experience as a moderator on Stratics that it is a thankless job. Do not underestimate the non-sense that forum moderators have to tolerate behind the scenes with nasty PMs, obtrusive personalities, and always having to deal with accusations about fairness and rule enforcement.

The moderators here do as good a job here as possible in consideration with the mandate they've been given. Is this forum over moderated a bit? Perhaps, but it's likely been necessary. A year or so ago, argument could be made it wasn't being moderated enough. It's a fine line and there is no perfect formula to making the majority of the community happy.

There have been times I have logged in to see the entire front page full of threads by the same 2 or 3 trolls who are regurgitating the same small handful of complaints on repeat. You know what I end up doing? Hitting the back button and deciding not to participate or read through other topics. It's a turn off. That's probably the worst result the developers want, but I can speak for myself and many others that the exhaustion of forum trolls has hurt the perception of these boards significantly. Heavy moderation has been needed.

With a smaller (and older!) community like ours, the style of moderation required here is going to be different than what you would see somewhere such as for Elder Scrolls or WoW. Comparing our community to a game with 200k+ subs is probably not an apples to apples comparison.

Years to make me into the poster i am today a little communication and accountability keeps trolls away

okcha 2024-01-10 20:23 #15

I always appreciate a good moderated forum, keep the toxicity/bullies on a short leash, and build a humble, gracious, friendly community ( imho)

Skett 2024-01-11 00:20 #16

just delete the trolls post and ban them after so many but keep the threads going is how I feel it would help out here. Ive seen a lot of threads here After they've been locked that I would have posted in but cant because of a few !@#!$ keep getting the threads locked just block these trolls from posting ? seems doable ?

ahhh really doesn't matter I have nothing important to say anyhow

MacroPlanet 2024-01-11 01:34 #17

While heavy moderation may intend to maintain order, it often erodes trust and can feel biased. Although trolls occasionally disrupt with offensive language, their voices may stem from years of being overlooked from the dev team.

Considering the enduring player base, loyal to UO even in 2024, it's crucial to recognize the potential insights these so-called 'trolls' might bring. With our new community manager in place, it's reasonable to expect improved communication from the development team, even if it's a simple reassurance to "be patient for an update."

Allowing individuals to express themselves fosters understanding, but intervention becomes necessary if discussions escalate beyond manageable levels. Striking a balance between free expression and moderation is crucial for a healthy and constructive community environment, especially one as old as UO.

I genuinely comprehend the challenges of the role. Serving as a moderator on another platform, I engage with thousands weekly, each approaching from diverse and competitive perspectives. I recognize the demanding and often underappreciated nature of this responsibility. Yet, I emphasize the significance of allowing individuals to express themselves, balancing it with the awareness of when it reaches an unhealthy extent.

Covfefe 2024-01-11 19:11 #18

hi @Venom , sorry the forum mod closed this thread in error as he was misinformed so i could not reply on that valid thread, I cannot blame him as no info in game or in wiki. I too would not have realized that there were penalties to playing on CC if an EC player didn't demonstrate to me these fixed issues.

In CC if you press a bandage-self macro before a current bandage has applied, the penalty is you lose a bandage and the bandage application timer is completely reset, this penalty does not exist in EC.

In CC if you cast attunement (or ethereal voyage) while on a hidden cool-down, your character will freeze for no reason, this penalty also does not exist in EC.

Tim 2024-01-11 19:14 #19

Try EC it works exactly as you describe in CC

Covfefe 2024-01-11 19:16 #20

I logged into EC to check this is the case, you need to put the bandages and those specific spells on a hotbar in EC then assign a hotkey to those then you don't get these penalties Tim. Maybe you did not put your macros on a hotbar.

Instead of just assuming I was wrong and closing the thread.

Tim 2024-01-11 19:37 #21

I tried your method and it still works the same for bandages only one target at a time.

Covfefe 2024-01-11 19:39 #22

yes is working perfectly in EC, but if you try on CC, you lose the bandage and the timer is reset. There is very bad penalty on CC, say you have applied a bandage (say 10 seconds to apply) and press to reapply after only 9.99 seconds, the first bandage will not apply, it will re-apply and you lose a whole bandage and timer is reset from 9.99 seconds right back to 0. This is a very bad penalty for CC players. You could do this 2 or more times in a row and never finish applying any bandages in CC. CC gives a very big human error penalty for premature application that does not exist in EC.

My inquiry was if they are going to remove these penalties. Or else people get encouraged to automate these actions to remove the catastrophic human error penalties from CC that do not even exist in EC.

Tim 2024-01-11 19:56 #23

Please describe what you think happens in EC and what you think should happen when you start applying a second bandage.

Covfefe 2024-01-11 19:58 #24

In EC, if you put a bandage on a hotbar - (set to target self EG) and assign a hotkey, when you press the hotkey to apply a bandage, it will apply a bandage, if you press the hotkey again while a bandage is already being applied, nothing happens. This is correct.

This is not what happens on CC, they give big big penalty for even 0.0001 second of human error, resulting in people automating the process in CC only - to remove the penalty that is not even present in EC.

I refuse to use automation/third party programs, so would like to know, if they plan on removing the penalties that are classic client specific.

Grimbeard 2024-01-11 20:10 #25

Now let's not let mervs nonsense get this locked just delete it and ban yet another one of his accounts

Larisa 2024-01-11 20:36 #26

Max bandage time is 4 seconds, if you really can't stand to loose ONE stinkin bandage, just count to 4, or pay attention to the system message you get when you've successfully healed. It's really not a game changer or a penalty, 4 seconds is 4 seconds no matter what client you're in. Just don't jump the gun and watch for the message, that's why it's there.

Why do people always make mountains out of mole hills?

Covfefe 2024-01-11 20:45 #27

your character with 4 second healing is probably a warrior, with high dexterity. Some people play other templates that require high intelligence where its not possible to get 150/150/150 stats

So some people have 10+ second heal timer, it's a big penalty regardless to basically lose the around 70 damage heal that you should've received. I mean, if you think you're better at PvP than me, and everyone else who is currently automating bandages to solve the issue then okay congrats on your flawless application ability, but i don't see you in the field much.

Its not the loss of a bandage, its the loss of the 10+ seconds/damage healed.

If its not a penalty and not a big deal, whats the problem with removing the penalty? since EC players don't have it

I tell you what, all these people who are using a script to apply bandages, i will message them and tell them hey, you can delete that script cos Larisa says just don't jump the gun and keep an eye out. OKay thanks. I mean, why they wrote it in the first place?

Larisa 2024-01-11 22:04 #28

Adjust...that's what I do.

I just recently put necro on my archer and healing on my sampire...why? So I have options.

But some people just like to complain so..have at it

Cookie 2024-01-11 22:17 #29

I adjusted. 🙂

Cookie 2024-01-11 22:19 #30

Btw - I'm fine with forum moderation, have no issues personally.

Mervyn's points are valid in context, and he probably needs his own category.

Pawain 2024-01-11 22:28 #31

Covfefe said:

your character with 4 second healing is probably a warrior, with high dexterity. Some people play other templates that require high intelligence where its not possible to get 150/150/150 stats

So some people have 10+ second heal timer, it's a big penalty regardless to basically lose the around 70 damage heal that you should've received. I mean, if you think you're better at PvP than me, and everyone else who is currently automating bandages to solve the issue then okay congrats on your flawless application ability, but i don't see you in the field much.

Its not the loss of a bandage, its the loss of the 10+ seconds/damage healed.

If its not a penalty and not a big deal, whats the problem with removing the penalty? since EC players don't have it

I tell you what, all these people who are using a script to apply bandages, i will message them and tell them hey, you can delete that script cos Larisa says just don't jump the gun and keep an eye out. OKay thanks. I mean, why they wrote it in the first place?

Your fingers don't slip in 10 seconds while getting hit? 😂

I see no proof you use healing on a template from what you state.

If you are actually doing 10 second heals with no slips. Use your programable keyboard or mouse to click your bandage key every 10 seconds.

How long has CC been out? Somehow we have been bandaging all these years, except easy button Sampires. They dont have to.

Covfefe 2024-01-11 23:00 #32

I have adjusted my play style to take more care, however i don't see why someone's preference for 2d graphics means they have to be given these penalties in the first place. They are huge issues to some people, maybe minor to others.

Don't they want people on 2d? the community manager plays 2d too, are the forum mods going to start banning her streams for playing on cc?

Pawain said:

How long has CC been out? Somehow we have been bandaging all these years

you mean people have been using a script to bandage for years to solve the problem, very few people at least in felucca on 2d do it manually due to this penalty that doesn't exist in EC. You can tell because, if they go afk, their char still applys bandages when they receive damage.

Pawain said:
Your fingers don't slip in 10 seconds while getting hit? 😂

yes they slip, but still heal a bit in the end, and that is a very good point, receiving damage you get a penalty,afaik

Interruption will occur if the healer is hit for more than 26 damage by a monster or more than 19 damage by another player. The amount of damage healed will be reduced by 35% per interruption.

yet the CC penalty for preferring 2d graphics over 3d can give you a 100% reduction, whether your bandages slip or not.

Pawain 2024-01-11 23:11 #33

Covfefe said:

I have adjusted my play style to take more care, however i don't see why someone's preference for 2d graphics means they have to be given these penalties in the first place. They are huge issues to some people, maybe minor to others.
Don't they want people on 2d? the community manager plays 2d too, are the forum mods going to start banning her streams for playing on cc?

Pawain said:

How long has CC been out? Somehow we have been bandaging all these years

you mean people have been using a script to bandage for years to solve the problem, very few people in felucca on 2d do it manually due to this penalty that doesn't exist in EC. You can tell because, if they go afk, their char still applys bandages when they receive damage.

Nothing you are saying is real or intelligible. I guess since you only use illegal clients you dont know that pressing a keyboard or macro button again stops it.

We are allowed to use macros in UO while we are at the keyboard, we can also use a stopwatch on our PC, we can ask Alexa to tell use when 30 minutes is up so we can re apply Whisper, maybe you did not know that. Psst you can make Macros, AKA Scripts in both clients. EC makes better ones, but I choose what I like.

No, I tried to use a 4 second one but when you get hit it throws off the time so I just wait for the little bandage icon to go away before I apply again. Been doing that for years.

@MacroPlanet ; Now you see why threads get locked. A certain party has to be the Main Character in every thread here.

Covfefe 2024-01-11 23:14 #34

is it you?

yes you wait for the icon to go away, but where the human error comes in is. in felucca you have maybe 8-15 buffs/debuffs running at any given time, and people use a ward removal talisman on you or you eat an enchanted apple, and the buffs rearrange themselves very much, so where you might think the buff has disappeared, it has just moved 10 tiles over, is a very easy mistake to make, again this penalty for the human error does not exist in EC.

If its not a problem, i guess nobody is using any script to apply bandages in CC as there is no reason to do so...

Pawain 2024-01-11 23:18 #35

Covfefe said:

is it you?

I did not hijack this thread, you brought up bandaging and I waited until others talked about bandaging.

IMO the Forum Mods do not keep the Forum a Positive Community Oriented Place. Many more threads should be closed and more posters need banned.

Covfefe 2024-01-11 23:21 #36

i only continued the conversation in this thread as the other thread was insta closed due to the mentioning of Classic client.

Kelmain 2024-01-11 23:22 #37

Forum moderation is a tough job. You know as a moderator that when you are put in a position by other where you should take action that you will end up ruffling some feathers yet still the moderation should be done.

I worked on a computer help desk for over 4 years and I knew every phone call would be from a grumpy person, the hard part was trying to make sure that when the call ended the person who rang felt happy about the conversation even if the user was at fault. No-one is perfect and mistakes will be made but it is incumbent upon everyone to at least try to see their faults and move forward.

I feel my next question is off topic but as a new user here and a returning player to UO I would like to ask about UOTrace (mentioned in this thread earlier). Is that still a thing? Is it updated, working and still available? and most importantly is it allowed?

Covfefe 2024-01-11 23:24 #38

Pawain said:

I guess since you only use illegal clients you dont know that pressing a keyboard or macro button again stops it.

1 no need for personal attack and false accusation.

2 that is the point entirely, pressing the keyboard macro to bandage self again on EC does nothing (correctly), however on CC it resets the timer back to 0. a 100% penalty.

Skett 2024-01-11 23:26 #39

What’s the bandage penalty in CC ?

Covfefe 2024-01-11 23:30 #40

8 seconds bandages is max, not 10 sorry. I wish to correct 10 seconds penalty to max 8 seconds penalty for use of CC.

Covfefe 2024-01-12 00:00 #41

Begging your pardon @Rorschach but is seems you have not yet issued a retraction on your incorrect statement here https://forum.uo.com/discussion/13627/any-future-plans-to-remove-penalties-for-playing-on-classic-client#latest

about there being no penalties, as I have described the clear penalties to cc users in detail. I’ll graciously accept a written apology. No need to hand in your resignation. yet.

you have made a human error, no penalty to you. Just like EC.

Mariah 2024-01-12 11:44 #42

To be clear before I lock this. There is no penalty specific to CC, using the 'bandage self' action works exactly the same in both clients, however EC does have a 'work around' in that if you don't use the action and simply put bandages in a hot bar with 'target>self' the hot bar timer in itself prevents the action re-starting. Neither complaint that is expressed is an actual 'penalty' deliberately put in to hamper CC users as the complainant claims.

However as that was not the topic of the thread, and on the whole the main topic appears to have been concluded, I will lock it to avoid further hijacking.

The UO Forums are too heavily moderated

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