Question about slayers and damage

Lord_Nythrax said:

So if I'm reading things correctly: If I equip a demon slayer talisman and a demon slayer weapon, then against demons Bushido perfection won't increase my damage any further since I'll already be at the 200% optional modifier cap? Because I'm okay with that, the talisman is obviously much more flexible.

Grimbeard said:

A side semi related question while running a straight pally warrior is it necessary to have 100 damage weapons? 

Arroth_Thaiel said:

Lord_Nythrax said:

So if I'm reading things correctly: If I equip a demon slayer talisman and a demon slayer weapon, then against demons Bushido perfection won't increase my damage any further since I'll already be at the 200% optional modifier cap? Because I'm okay with that, the talisman is obviously much more flexible.

As I understand it, yes.

I would test it to make sure. Equip both the tali and weapon, then use Perfection and see what happens. From what I saw in my testing, you should not see any additional damage from Perfection in this specific situation.

Keep in mind I did all this testing myself. I may have made a mistake. Things may have been altered behind the scenes since I was doing all my testing and posts. There may be some edge case that's different.

Grimbeard said:

A side semi related question while running a straight pally warrior is it necessary to have 100 damage weapons? 

That's going to be situation dependent. Damage Increase is capped at 100%, so if:

Damage Increase:
40% Weapon
58% Bard Buff
98% Total

No need for Damage Increase 100% on your weapon in this case. Although Damage Increase 42% on the weapon would put you at the Damage Increase 100% cap.

42% Weapon
58% Bard Buff
100% Total

--

Your gear requirements are really going to depend on how you're playing and the specific encounter you're interacting with. You don't need Damage Increase 100% on a Paladin's weapon, if you can find it on Shields, or Jewelry, or from other buffs (i.e. Divine Fury is Damage Increase 20%). 

Grimbeard said:

Sorry I  meant 100% cold poison etc

• Super Slayer Weapons will do double damage to the monsters they are meant for.
• “Single Slayers” will do triple damage

Pawain said:

You still want to use the best damage type weapon.  Because once you hit the caps, it goes no further and then the formula brings in the actual damage type using the Mobs resists.

So if you have maxxed out your 2 damage types,  and a Mob has 80 phy resist and 60 cold resist. 
A cold damage weapon will do more damage than a physical damage one.

Pawain said:

What type demon is the OP using the weapon on, I assume DF.  I thought everyone just used 1 demon item while fighting him.  It gives the 200%.

• Super Slayer Weapons will do double damage to the monsters they are meant for.
• “Single Slayers” will do triple damage

Pawain said:

@ Arroth_Thaiel  Grim wanted to know if he should use the correct damage weapon on a Mob.  

Grim is asking if he has a 100% physical weapon and all the damage bonus max, is that maximum damage to a Mob.

I was trying to say that your damage to the Mob is determined at the very end,  if a Mob has 80 Phy resist and 60 cold resist.  The 100% cold weapon will do more damage than a 100% Physical weapon to that Mob.  No matter what your damage bonus's are if under equal circumstance.

So yes, he needs to use a weapon that matches a Mobs resists to do the most damage.

Grimbeard said:

Pawain said:

@ Arroth_Thaiel  Grim wanted to know if he should use the correct damage weapon on a Mob.  

Grim is asking if he has a 100% physical weapon and all the damage bonus max, is that maximum damage to a Mob.

I was trying to say that your damage to the Mob is determined at the very end,  if a Mob has 80 Phy resist and 60 cold resist.  The 100% cold weapon will do more damage than a 100% Physical weapon to that Mob.  No matter what your damage bonus's are if under equal circumstance.

So yes, he needs to use a weapon that matches a Mobs resists to do the most damage.

Wouldn't using CW do that? 

Pawain said:

Grimbeard said:

Pawain said:

@ Arroth_Thaiel  Grim wanted to know if he should use the correct damage weapon on a Mob.  

Grim is asking if he has a 100% physical weapon and all the damage bonus max, is that maximum damage to a Mob.

I was trying to say that your damage to the Mob is determined at the very end,  if a Mob has 80 Phy resist and 60 cold resist.  The 100% cold weapon will do more damage than a 100% Physical weapon to that Mob.  No matter what your damage bonus's are if under equal circumstance.

So yes, he needs to use a weapon that matches a Mobs resists to do the most damage.

Wouldn't using CW do that? 

Yes but you did not include that in your question  If you keep Consecrate on, you are doing the most damage to the Mob possible. Most of My Bows are Physical because I can keep CW going on my Archers, but I have lots of melee weapons with 100 elemental damage so I do not need to re cast over and over.  My Melee guys are busy doing other stuff.

Also using EoO will get max damage instead of 2 worn super slayers.

I don't think the OP has Chivalry tho, if he does then that changes what he needs for max damage.

Grimbeard said:

Part two of my question dies 100% elemental dmg take up imbuing points?  Or add imbuing weight rather?

Pawain said:

You still want to use the best damage type weapon.  Because once you hit the caps, it goes no further and then the formula brings in the actual damage type using the Mobs resists.

So if you have maxxed out your 2 damage types,  and a Mob has 80 phy resist and 60 cold resist. 
A cold damage weapon will do more damage than a physical damage one.

What type demon is the OP using the weapon on, I assume DF.  I thought everyone just used 1 demon item while fighting him.  It gives the 200%.

• Super Slayer Weapons will do double damage to the monsters they are meant for.
• “Single Slayers” will do triple damage

Pawain said:

Grimbeard said:

Pawain said:

@ Arroth_Thaiel  Grim wanted to know if he should use the correct damage weapon on a Mob.  

Grim is asking if he has a 100% physical weapon and all the damage bonus max, is that maximum damage to a Mob.


Wouldn't using CW do that? 

Also using EoO will get max damage instead of 2 worn super slayers.

I don't think the OP has Chivalry tho, if he does then that changes what he needs for max damage.

popps said:

As in regards to Super and Single Slayers, for Eodon, there are spellbooks, suits and other items with the Dinosaur, Myrmidex or the various tribes Slayers...

Are they "single" Slayers that do the 300% damage, thus making it pointless to also have 100% Damage Increase, or are they "super" slayers and, thus, only do 200% thus making it necessary to either also have additional 100% Damage Increase, or run Perfection in order to reach the 300% damage CAP ?

Thanks.

Arroth_Thaiel said:

popps said:

As in regards to Super and Single Slayers, for Eodon, there are spellbooks, suits and other items with the Dinosaur, Myrmidex or the various tribes Slayers...

Are they "single" Slayers that do the 300% damage, thus making it pointless to also have 100% Damage Increase, or are they "super" slayers and, thus, only do 200% thus making it necessary to either also have additional 100% Damage Increase, or run Perfection in order to reach the 300% damage CAP ?

Thanks.

@ popps Look at the diagrams posted in this thread.

Increase and Modifier are two separate parts of the Damage Calculation.

Damage Increase is factored in the Increase portion of the calculation. Slayers are Modifier, which is factored in the Modifier portion of the Damage Calculation.

--
From the uo.com wiki (I have not tested these myself), the Eodon slayers you're asking about are giving double damage, making them Super Slayers (100% Modifier):

popps said:

OK, thank you for the clarification.

But then, if one uses 2 of these double slayer damage, for example one on the suit, and the other on a spellbook or on the weapon, then they would stack and work together for 300% damage without the need to have 100% base Damage Increase ?

Did I get it right ?

Seth said:

hmm, i think EOO does not add 100% damage, it's only 82% damage increase.

Then at 120 Chiv, CW fills up another 15% DI so total 97% DI with Eoo and spamming CW. Ofcourse besides that CW target weakest resist.

CW vs 100% Ele
My opinion is sometimes CW is better because not every monster of same type has the same lowest resist.

Say resist of 35% to 55%, u won't know the current spawn is at which end of that range. So I do notice sometimes CW has slightly better damage against certain monsters. That is I do cast CW even when using 100% ele axe to test if there is better damage besides 15% DI. I did this when solo paragons during tot.

Arroth_Thaiel said:

Seth said:

hmm, i think EOO does not add 100% damage, it's only 82% damage increase.

Then at 120 Chiv, CW fills up another 15% DI so total 97% DI with Eoo and spamming CW. Ofcourse besides that CW target weakest resist.

CW vs 100% Ele
My opinion is sometimes CW is better because not every monster of same type has the same lowest resist.

Say resist of 35% to 55%, u won't know the current spawn is at which end of that range. So I do notice sometimes CW has slightly better damage against certain monsters. That is I do cast CW even when using 100% ele axe to test if there is better damage besides 15% DI. I did this when solo paragons during tot.

@ Seth 
This is the part where how modifiers are actually calculated comes in. Here is the thread (again) discussing that behavior:
Damage Modifiers beyond the first are being calculated proportionally rather than additively. - Ultima Online Forums (uo.com)

I just logged in and tested this on Test Center this morning (10/08/2023) and the behavior is still the same. The problem we as players are running into, is that we are thinking of modifiers as a simple addition of percentages, but that's not the way Modifier is actually being calculated.

From my testing this morning:
Reptile Slayer + EoO is the same as Lizardmen Slayer is the same as Lizardmen Slayer + EoO

Any of the three setups will put you at the Modifier 300% Cap.

Modifier cap is still 300% (Base + Optional), but you can get there much, much easier than players have believed.

In fact, if you only have Chivalry 84 you will cast EoO at 50%, which if combined with a Super Slayer (Modifier 100%) will also put you at the Modifier 300% cap.

Reptile Slayer + EoO (50%) is the same as Lizardmen Slayer is the same as Lizardmen Slayer + EoO (50%)


--
As I have said to popps, don't conflate Damage Increase and Modifier. Consecrate Weapon gives Modifier 15%.

I agree that you may notice more damage being done with CW because CW is also directing all damage to the targets lowest resist, every strike, for every creature.

Arroth_Thaiel said:

As I understand it, yes.

I would test it to make sure. Equip both the tali and weapon, then use Perfection and see what happens. From what I saw in my testing, you should not see any additional damage from Perfection in this specific situation.

Lord_Nythrax said:

Arroth_Thaiel said:

As I understand it, yes.

I would test it to make sure. Equip both the tali and weapon, then use Perfection and see what happens. From what I saw in my testing, you should not see any additional damage from Perfection in this specific situation.

Tested and this is indeed the case, thanks again.

Grimbeard said:

@ Popps also talismans don't affect spell damage 

popps said:

Grimbeard said:

@ Popps also talismans don't affect spell damage 

@ Grimbeard

Yes, I am aware that Talismans only affect dexers' damage, not that of spellcasters but my question is more about the Suits which, as a set, come with a Slayer...

For Eodon, for example, Dinosaur and Myrmidex Slayers can come from a Suit set.

Yet, there is also Spellbooks which have the Dinosaur and Myrmidex Slayers.

Question is, for a Spellcaster who is keeping in hand a spellbook with the Dinosaur/Myrmidex Slayer and is also wearing the Suit set with the same Slayer, do the 2 Slayer stack when casting spells ?

Also, does that work for all spells, Magery, Ninjitsu, Mysticism, Spellweaving, etc etc., or do these Slayers, whether on the Suit sets or on a Spellbook only work for "some" spells, not others ?

Thanks for the clarification.

Arroth_Thaiel said:

Grimbeard said:

Sorry I  meant 100% cold poison etc

Ah, ok. Well, the answer is basically going to be the same. What you're using is going to depend on the encounter and how you're playing that encounter.

If you are using Armor Ignore, elemental damage is irrelevant.

In any other case, does the opponent still have resistance or have you zeroed it out with Bard Debuffs, Onslought, etc.? If the opponent still has resistance, can you keep Consecrate Weapon running? Does the mana use from casting CW interfere with chaining special moves? If you can chain specials with CW, why bother with an elemental weapon?

If you can't use, or don't want to use Consecrate Weapon, then the correct elemental weapon will produce more damage for you over time.


--
For reference, I get tired of casting CW, and the mana use from it, so I've begun building specific elemental damage weapons for specific creatures. However, for general adventuring, all of my weapons are 100% Physical. 

PlayerSkillFTW said:

Arroth_Thaiel said:

Grimbeard said:

Sorry I  meant 100% cold poison etc

Ah, ok. Well, the answer is basically going to be the same. What you're using is going to depend on the encounter and how you're playing that encounter.

If you are using Armor Ignore, elemental damage is irrelevant.

In any other case, does the opponent still have resistance or have you zeroed it out with Bard Debuffs, Onslought, etc.? If the opponent still has resistance, can you keep Consecrate Weapon running? Does the mana use from casting CW interfere with chaining special moves? If you can chain specials with CW, why bother with an elemental weapon?

If you can't use, or don't want to use Consecrate Weapon, then the correct elemental weapon will produce more damage for you over time.


--
For reference, I get tired of casting CW, and the mana use from it, so I've begun building specific elemental damage weapons for specific creatures. However, for general adventuring, all of my weapons are 100% Physical. 

100% Elemental Weapons are still useful for Swordsman, even if you do use Con Wep. Onslaught lowers the resist (up to -20) of whatever is the weapon's damage type, even with Con Wep active. If you use a 100% Physical Damage Double Axe to fight a Greater Dragon, and you use Con Wep, then you'll be hitting it's weakest Resist (Cold), but if you use Onslaught, it'll lower the Physical Resist instead of Cold Resist. You'd end up doing more damage with a 100% Cold Damage Double Axe using Onslaught.

Grimbeard said:

PlayerSkillFTW said:

Arroth_Thaiel said:

Grimbeard said:

Sorry I  meant 100% cold poison etc

Ah, ok. Well, the answer is basically going to be the same. What you're using is going to depend on the encounter and how you're playing that encounter.

If you are using Armor Ignore, elemental damage is irrelevant.

In any other case, does the opponent still have resistance or have you zeroed it out with Bard Debuffs, Onslought, etc.? If the opponent still has resistance, can you keep Consecrate Weapon running? Does the mana use from casting CW interfere with chaining special moves? If you can chain specials with CW, why bother with an elemental weapon?

If you can't use, or don't want to use Consecrate Weapon, then the correct elemental weapon will produce more damage for you over time.


--
For reference, I get tired of casting CW, and the mana use from it, so I've begun building specific elemental damage weapons for specific creatures. However, for general adventuring, all of my weapons are 100% Physical. 

100% Elemental Weapons are still useful for Swordsman, even if you do use Con Wep. Onslaught lowers the resist (up to -20) of whatever is the weapon's damage type, even with Con Wep active. If you use a 100% Physical Damage Double Axe to fight a Greater Dragon, and you use Con Wep, then you'll be hitting it's weakest Resist (Cold), but if you use Onslaught, it'll lower the Physical Resist instead of Cold Resist. You'd end up doing more damage with a 100% Cold Damage Double Axe using Onslaught.

It's my paladin macer on question no bushido