Potential Issue w/ Dynamic Spawn?

I wanted to post here because this forum gets more eyes on it to actually confirm if this is a bug or maybe just me (if a couple people can confirm then @Mariah feel free to move it). I've had this happen to me twice now so it feels like it might be a bug but it's hard for me to recreate due to timing (more on that in a minute). 

I suspect that when the dynamic spawn is worked up to a certain level and then is stopped (before champ spawns) and goes back down to level 1 that the drops no longer spawn. I logged on this morning bright and early and nobody was at the spawn (it was at level 1). I started killing the mobs and worked it up to level 2 this time (last time I worked it to level 3) and even though I was the only one there; I didn't receive a single drop the entire time (both times). I compare this to when I'm on ATL where the spawns last all of maybe 10min? and I usually get at least 2 masks. I can't really recreate this because usually when I'm working a spawn it goes all the way through bc people will join in so it won't drop in candles. I also don't know for sure if someone worked it up or not because I'm just logging in so I have no idea what happened the previous 12 hours.

Anyone else able to confirm that when they log on to a low traffic shard during off hours if they have this issue? I suspect 1 or 2 people work the spawn but know they won't be able to finish so they leave. Once the candles start reverting to lower levels it basically jams up the drops (I'd assume until the alter is completely reset via server maintenance or working the spawn for no reward).

@Kyronix - If people can confirm this then it's probably something that should be fixed

I logged on to Legends mid-day during the wave with Fan Dancers. Got six skull drops in 30 minutes then left because no one about. I usually get 1-2 drops during the spawn "frozen" period.

How long does it take for a spawn to de-advance? LOL that sounds funny.

Okay so I'm here on Origin. Spawn was 2 candle...I worked it up to 3 reds, 4 whites and left. I got 3 drops.

Sitting in Luna waiting for it to de-spawn. I know that 98% likely no one else has been there as server reset was not that long ago and I didn't see anyone else around but I don't know for sure.

Okay so  Edited:

Went back, it had lost the whites and was back down to just 3 red candles.

4 AOE's later I have 5 drops INCLUDING a rare....BUT it's the SAME ONE I already have!!! Just my luck lol.

Anyway...I guess that answers your question? Yes you can still get drops.

Larisa said:

Anyway...I guess that answers your question? Yes you can still get drops.

Not quite. I don't think it stops when it just drops one candle. My guess is that it's when it's up at level 3 or 4 (14-15 reds) and then it drops back down to 3 reds. I've encountered this on Origin before the server goes down. There is like a solid 15min time span of me working the spawn from level 1-3 where I don't get a single drop.

I worked it to lvl 2 almost lvl 3 and left,  it dropped all the way back to 2 candle, no one was working it at all. When I went back I got more drops working it back up.

@Larisa - I just hoped on Origin and found the spawn to be on wave 1. I worked it with another samp up to mid wave 2 before typing this (about 10-15min) and neither one of us was getting drops. I suspect nobody every finished the spawn after you started it a few hours ago. I'm thinking that maybe whoever was working the spawn before would still get drops but maybe new people who come after it was started might not? 

Not 100% sure but at this point it's now been 3 times where I've gone to find a spawn at level 1 (assuming they were worked earlier) and worked them past level 1 without a single drop whereas when I do ATL from level 1 I'm getting at least 1 from level 1 or 2. Seems like the other person at the spawn was experiencing the same.

Maybe there is a max number of drops per spawn, and that limit was exhausted?
The new system is greatly improved vs. old, the number of possible participation drops seems much higher.

I agree it's better for sure but it seems like it could be an issue on the shards that are lower population where there might not be enough people on to finish a spawn. It becomes a chore to clear the spawn / kill the champ without a drop and I'm also not sure what would happen if the champ spawned and I killed it (since I wasn't getting drops would I get a belt?).

@Larisa - I'll be back on in about 11-12 hours (before Origin shard maintenance) if you are around we can test.

I worked it a bit between 7-9 this morning Origin the spawn was fan dancers with a few 1st and 3rd waves got 3 or 4 drops disco tamer so not really fast killing 

Yeah then you were there before me. I was on around 8 AM Central time and it was at 2 candles first lvl spawn. I worked it to just before lvl 3 then left to let it revert, went back and it was back down so worked it up a bit with one other person there and got more drops then left again before it hit lvl 3. I have never not gotten a drop.

Allow me to add another potential issue to the dynamic spawn, even though it is a different issue from the OP but falls under the same subject header, so I hope it will benefit everyone. 

When I joined in at the last tier around the time when the boss is about to pop, I tried to make up by hunting for the remaining monsters in the first 4 tiers. Twice, I found a handful around the fringe of the champ spawn area and did my best to kill some remaining critters from each tier. Then I joined in to finish up the boss. The result is that I did not get the belt. 

So what I am trying to say is that the game mechanism does not count if you kill some of each tier, but it requires your presence throughout the 4 tiers. Another possibility is that it requires you to kill "substantial" numbers of each tier to be considered for the grand prize. 

In summary, if you are late for the fight, don't waste time trying to make up for it. Wait for the next round and start fresh. 

Seth said:

Allow me to add another potential issue to the dynamic spawn, even though it is a different issue from the OP but falls under the same subject header, so I hope it will benefit everyone. 

When I joined in at the last tier around the time when the boss is about to pop, I tried to make up by hunting for the remaining monsters in the first 4 tiers. Twice, I found a handful around the fringe of the champ spawn area and did my best to kill some remaining critters from each tier. Then I joined in to finish up the boss. The result is that I did not get the belt. 

So what I am trying to say is that the game mechanism does not count if you kill some of each tier, but it requires your presence throughout the 4 tiers. Another possibility is that it requires you to kill "substantial" numbers of each tier to be considered for the grand prize. 

In summary, if you are late for the fight, don't waste time trying to make up for it. Wait for the next round and start fresh. 

This rather than encouraging people to join and help will discourage them..

I have killed the boss 9 times...I have 2 belts...why? Because when I go and see that it's on the last level or the boss is already up...I don't leave.....I help. I hope that's what other people are doing. I don't care about the stupid belt....it's a *Meh* piece and if I get more okay, if I don't..okay...I just want the rare heads.

So not an issue..it's working as intended.....the second belt I got I arrived shortly before lvl 3 so I was there for at least 2 waves and got the belt, you just can't swoop in last minute which I like, and since the boss isn't an insane killing machine and is fairly easy, though time consuming, to kill with few people it's not really a thing.

I've gotten like 40 heads but no arch fiend 

40 belts stopped counting common masks at 100. No rare.

McDougle said:

I've gotten like 40 heads but no arch fiend 

I never got any rare pink drop from dark forest either.  Rares don't like me.

McDougle said:

Seth said:

Allow me to add another potential issue to the dynamic spawn, even though it is a different issue from the OP but falls under the same subject header, so I hope it will benefit everyone. 

When I joined in at the last tier around the time when the boss is about to pop, I tried to make up by hunting for the remaining monsters in the first 4 tiers. Twice, I found a handful around the fringe of the champ spawn area and did my best to kill some remaining critters from each tier. Then I joined in to finish up the boss. The result is that I did not get the belt. 

So what I am trying to say is that the game mechanism does not count if you kill some of each tier, but it requires your presence throughout the 4 tiers. Another possibility is that it requires you to kill "substantial" numbers of each tier to be considered for the grand prize. 

In summary, if you are late for the fight, don't waste time trying to make up for it. Wait for the next round and start fresh. 

This rather than encouraging people to join and help will discourage them..

People who knows they get nothing but still join are the real helpers. 

I just enjoy doing spawns my Bard just stands in the insanity doing the bard dance!! I've got one kast eppellet to grab then will be spawning full time 

I have arrived at the second level and have not killed any of the last level mobs some rounds.  If I get a participation drop, I have gotten a belt. up to 46 now.

Luckily LS has been doing each spawn while I am on.

McDougle said:

I just enjoy doing spawns my Bard just stands in the insanity doing the bard dance!! I've got one kast eppellet to grab then will be spawning full time 

@McDougle

I guess that, in order to stand in the insanity, your Bard needs, to stay alive, to be REALLY fast at provoking really fast, several Mobs with several other MoBs...

That is, I imagine, you must have a hell of a good Macro that works well when you just hit macro, hit macro, hit macro etc.. etc... without spending time to select targets... and all of the MoB around the Bard end up fighting another MoB.... all busy with one another....

So I am curious, what is this damn good macro that you can use to just hit the macro a go-go, without worrying about having to manually select the targets of the provoke ?

Are you using the Classic or the Enhanced Client, for this ultra fast Bard macroing to "stand in the insanity" ?

Not really I'm always moving in a small circle pattern I'm in stone form with provo mastery running i only cast RC's then provoke i use mass sleep instead of peace because it's so much better and it doesn't use timer so i can provoke everytime 

Have played this event twice now and gotten two belts. First time I have played one of these events with a reasonable expectation of getting something good from the boss. Spend most of my time running away but kill what I can and help others to kill the boss. Have to say this is a big improvement from the other events.

Probably another improvement is the boss will drop the normal / rare head (participation reward) no matter if you are qualified for the belt (boss) reward, to encourage late comer to join the boss fight. 

ForeverFun said:

Maybe there is a max number of drops per spawn, and that limit was exhausted?

That's what I asked in another thread. I suspect the total no. of drops per spawn is 25. Possibly someone got all the 25 and didn't finish / advance to the boss then the spawn de-advance so other players won't be able to get further drops from this round?

For first time last night I worked spawn from 1st wave to third with no drop 

Aragorn said:

ForeverFun said:

Maybe there is a max number of drops per spawn, and that limit was exhausted?

That's what I asked in another thread. I suspect the total no. of drops per spawn is 25. Possibly someone got all the 25 and didn't finish / advance to the boss then the spawn de-advance so other players won't be able to get further drops from this round?

This would actually make sense.... The total number of drops was given for that boss so they stop being given.

Aragorn said:

Probably another improvement is the boss will drop the normal / rare head (participation reward) no matter if you are qualified for the belt (boss) reward, to encourage late comer to join the boss fight. 

ForeverFun said:

Maybe there is a max number of drops per spawn, and that limit was exhausted?

That's what I asked in another thread. I suspect the total no. of drops per spawn is 25. Possibly someone got all the 25 and didn't finish / advance to the boss then the spawn de-advance so other players won't be able to get further drops from this round?

If there is a CAP of 25 drops per Spawn, THEN, the Spawn mechanics should be changed so that, after sometime that the spawn does not advance or the Boss not killed (regardless whether there is no player working it or the player(s) present are not sufficient to advance the Spawn or kill the Boss in a reasonable amount of time), the Spawn would reset by itself, automatically.

This is important, to my opinion, to address the problems that players coming late to this type of Spawn currently face which it is, they get no warning message that the CAP of items' drops has already been reached, therefore they waste their time killing MoBs without a chance to get any drops as possible because the CAP has already been reached by players working the Spawn before them, and also to address the problem of players getting "stuck" with a Spawn that either they do not have the ability to fight on their own, alone (after all, my understading is that this type of Spawn has been Designed as a "group effort", so asking to players to deal with it solo sounds contradictory to me....), or because players on that Shard (perhaps a low population Shard) have no longer the interest to deal with it, since they already got all the rewards they wanted from it.

Late comers to this type of Spawn should not be penalized by the Spawn Design and get stuck with no ability to get drops because the CAP of drops has already been met and these players do not have the ability to finish the Spawn and reset it or, simply, lack the extensive time needed to finish it to reset or do not see it proper to waste so much of their time just to force the Spawn reset.

Hence, the necessity to have it automatically reset, after it has not been finished in a set amount of reasonable time.

What is the big deal that require a limit of 25 max? Aren’t they not 99% repeats where we just throw away, and everyone is just going after the rare masks? 

Seth said:

What is the big deal that require a limit of 25 max? Aren’t they not 99% repeats where we just throw away, and everyone is just going after the rare masks? 

If the concern is about farming, all that is needed is to set a lower probability of drop rate for the rare masks, or create another set of super rare neon masks with probability like 1 in 10,000.

No one is complaining about spawn rate of the Blaze Cu.

Are there such limits on normal champ spawn drops only 25 pinks can drop? 

They should put a normal boss so problem solve...not a boss that need 4 person and 20 minutes to kill

McDougle said:

Seth said:

What is the big deal that require a limit of 25 max? Aren’t they not 99% repeats where we just throw away, and everyone is just going after the rare masks? 

If the concern is about farming, all that is needed is to set a lower probability of drop rate for the rare masks, or create another set of super rare neon masks with probability like 1 in 10,000.

No one is complaining about spawn rate of the Blaze Cu.

Are there such limits on normal champ spawn drops only 25 pinks can drop? 

Pinkies a little different because each piece is most likely useful, more or less.

The reward masks are decors, and decors have lower or no value when it’s over supply. It’s like running for Yukio quest, after spending X time, but not even a throw of dice. At least we get a dice after each run to test our luck for the rare drop. And if we missed, the reward is trash decor.

In this new quest there is no indication if the next hour is going to be well spent or is an “empty” quest. 

McDougle said:

Are there such limits on normal champ spawn drops only 25 pinks can drop? 

Yes I believe there is a range for pinks which is actually much lower than 25 (I want to say it's like 1-6 but don't quote me on that exact range). The slight difference there is that someone can protect and that would double the output of pinks if the protector isn't killing spawn. I've solo'ed many spawns and there were times I never even got a single pink. I think the most I ever got for a single spawn might have been 4? 

Fortis said:

They should put a normal boss so problem solve...not a boss that need 4 person and 20 minutes to kill

That might be tough given that when the event kicks off, especially on larger shards, a normal boss is going to die in about 2minutes and lots of people (probably less skilled people) wouldn't get a reward (and would need to wait until the event dies down). 

I think that maybe another solution might be to allow a better chance at the rare drop (ie archfiend mask) when killing the champ. There is absolutely a fine line of balancing so having the champ drop crimmys every time to everyone isn't realistic, I get that, but there needs to be incentive to kill the champ (especially for those that weren't there for waves 1-3). I think maybe a 25% chance of getting an archfiend mask would help incentivize people coming to kill the champ even once they have all the demon belt drops they want. 

I wondered only because if its an existing mechanic they might have trouble changing it

McDougle said:

I wondered only because if its an existing mechanic they might have trouble changing it

What do you mean ?

Either a mechanics is coded right from start, or it can never be adjusted right, if necessary, at least to my opinion, as in this case beng discussed in this Thread ?

popps said:

McDougle said:

I wondered only because if its an existing mechanic they might have trouble changing it

What do you mean ?

Either a mechanics is coded right from start, or it can never be adjusted right, if necessary, at least to my opinion, as in this case beng discussed in this Thread ?

If it's part of the spaghetti code they might have trouble changing 

A change to have the dynamic spawns not "decay" the progress may make sense.  That means there is always forward progress.  The bosses seem about right difficulty wise.

If the spawn always makes forward progress, there probably isn't much reason to increase the participation reward limit.  Any number below infinite would likely not please all anyway.

keven2002 said:

I think that maybe another solution might be to allow a better chance at the rare drop (ie archfiend mask) when killing the champ. There is absolutely a fine line of balancing so having the champ drop crimmys every time to everyone isn't realistic, I get that, but there needs to be incentive to kill the champ (especially for those that weren't there for waves 1-3). I think maybe a 25% chance of getting an archfiend mask would help incentivize people coming to kill the champ even once they have all the demon belt drops they want. 

Putting the rare rewards on the final boss would just diminish the value and desirability of them. Making it so people would only show up for the final boss vs clearing the spawn with a low drop % for the rare rewards. It's already possible to get a mask drop from the final boss if there are masks still available for that spawn to be given out.

 As for the length of time to kill the boss, it's advised for people to look to see what they are bringing to the table to kill that boss. Are melee warriors using onslaught, are tamers bringing beetles? Conductive blast? Is the mob being discorded by a player or pet? WoD? People saying they are taking 20-30 minutes for a group to kill it are not taking advantage of the abilities in game to shorten that time.

Just double the amount this isn't rocket science and they are deco

Violet said:

Putting the rare rewards on the final boss would just diminish the value and desirability of them. Making it so people would only show up for the final boss vs clearing the spawn with a low drop % for the rare rewards. It's already possible to get a mask drop from the final boss if there are masks still available for that spawn to be given out.

I think the biggest problem here is that there are several scenarios where there is absolutely zero incentive to kill the champ. In the event someone actually wants another belt and they arrive after wave 3 they won't get what they were looking to get until the next spawn. If someone wants masks but the spawn was already worked for the 25 drops they won't get any until the next spawn.

In both of the scenarios people will need to take X time plus 30min reset for another chance (with the current chance being zero). In that same time period, people can do countless other things depending on their skill level for an actual chance at some reward. Especially for someone like me, where I really only have maybe an hour at a time to play most days, who would basically only have enough time to do the spawn to help it reset and if they're lucky maybe be able to do part of a second one.

So while I get it that we wouldn't want to make a rare basically non-rare; there needs to be a carrot dangled out there for [majority of] people to do the spawn/champ because as it stands right now majority of people aren't going to help finish a spawn if there is no reward. As unfortunate as some people might think that is; it's just the reality of it in most cases. 

 As for the length of time to kill the boss, it's advised for people to look to see what they are bringing to the table to kill that boss. Are melee warriors using onslaught, are tamers bringing beetles? Conductive blast? Is the mob being discorded by a player or pet? WoD? People saying they are taking 20-30 minutes for a group to kill it are not taking advantage of the abilities in game to shorten that time.

When there is a true group I don't think many people are saying it's an issue. I didn't see many people saying anything about this the first few days of the spawn when everyone was working it. The issue now that the event has been out for a couple weeks is that the "group" is literally 3 or 4 random people who are working the spawn on let's say their sampire or archer. Nobody is logging their char who would get a belt for their tamer / bard just to make the champ die faster. That said, to be honest saying 3-4 people is overstating what actually happens because typically it's just 1 or 2 people (outside of a handful of shards like ATL/LS/Europa and/or being on at peak hours). 

The solution will require giving people some incentive to come help kill the boss or work the spawn.

There is always incentive to kill the boss, you will restart the spawn and have a chance to get more masks. Sometimes you just have to do the work to get rewards. One idea is to half the numbers of masks so people stay and does the spawn more times before they get their set. I gave up on getting a rare mask after 300 or so plain ones.

IChrille said:

There is always incentive to kill the boss, you will restart the spawn and have a chance to get more masks. Sometimes you just have to do the work to get rewards. One idea is to half the numbers of masks so people stay and does the spawn more times before they get their set. I gave up on getting a rare mask after 300 or so plain ones.

Exactly.

Chrille said:

There is always incentive to kill the boss, you will restart the spawn and have a chance to get more masks. Sometimes you just have to do the work to get rewards. 

If the spawn is on wave 1 and all the masks are gone (and nobody is working it) that means someone will have to work the whole spawn (likely solo once people figure out no masks are dropping) and the champ. And wait 30min for the reset. On the very low end we are talking at least an hour of time for absolutely zero chance at any rare mask. On the flip side, someone could do all the rooms in shadowguard including the roof (I'm not great at it but I can do it in an hour) for a chance at Cameo/Sandals/Robe. It's all about opportunity cost with the limited time people have. 

Chrille said:

One idea is to half the numbers of masks so people stay and does the spawn more times before they get their set. I gave up on getting a rare mask after 300 or so plain ones.

How would halving the number of masks dropped make people stay longer? If anything people will leave sooner because 12 masks are going to run out quicker than 25. The only thing this does is inflate the market price (then people will complain how expensive they are).

In a game of a million grinds, I think expecting someone to spend an hour plus of their time for no chance or a reduced chance (lowering total drops from where they are) instead of finding a different more rewarding grind is unrealistic. For someone that really wants a set of archfiend masks and 100 belts; yea maybe they will work the no drop spawns to keep them rolling but the average player is going to go do something else and that is just the reality of it. Are you going to go hunt down every single paragon balron in the dungeon during the Treasure Of event (even with them giving a better chance at a drop) or are you going to blast as many imps/ mongbats / hell hounds / gazer larva as you can before having to deal with a paragon?