Showcasing "unbreakable" nerve

https://streamable.com/4xaa3v

I'm sure I'm violating some rule by posting this vid in response to something in a closed thread, but I think it's important to qualify the level of understanding (or lack thereof) that some of the most vocal and opinionated posters on the forums have.  Now, this isn't an attempt at attacking any individual and I'm not looking to reopen a discussion about mechanics.  If someone would like me to post MORE proof, I'll take even more time to record what I'd hope 99% of the player base should know seeing as it's one of the most used specials of the past 14 years and has documented patch notes that say it's breakable.  

Basically, recorded a guildmate nerve striking me and me double clicking a trapped box to break the nerve every single time.  As further proof of the concept, another guildmate cursed me right after one nerve to show it doesn't even take damage to break it.  For context of why I bothered doing this, some players have been adamant in arguing that nerve strike is "mostly unbreakable" which makes zero sense. 

If game dev's actually do view these threads and take player feedback into consideration, I hope they understand which players speak from the perspective of an actual, active pvper that understands and uses the mechanics they speak on versus players that just theorize in their imaginations.

I completely understand your reasons and logic for doing this.

I am glad you have made this post.

I have myself been completely stunned, and really annoyed by (the inaccuracy of) some of the opinions being presented on these forums to the Devs. It's the fact they are not based on any sort of reality. I have really held myself back in terms of completely losing it - mainly because I'm getting older and all that, and it's not a good look to be flaming youngsters out of existence 🙂

I never knew it was that bad. I also don't want to go on about it.

LearnMe said:

https://streamable.com/4xaa3v

I'm sure I'm violating some rule by posting this vid in response to something in a closed thread, but I think it's important to qualify the level of understanding (or lack thereof) that some of the most vocal and opinionated posters on the forums have. 

If game dev's actually do view these threads and take player feedback into consideration, I hope they understand which players speak from the perspective of an actual, active pvper that understands and uses the mechanics they speak on versus players that just theorize in their imaginations.

The difference being, he did it by hand, and you used a macro, assuming you are both recording truthfully.

Are you sure there is not something wrong with your macro?

Cookie said:

The difference being, he did it by hand, and you used a macro, assuming you are both recording truthfully.

Are you sure there is not something wrong with your macro?

Understood - you can get rid of UOA macro now you know - it is dealt with in Classic Client - and I always find Classic Client better. I seem to never miss using Classic Client inbuilt Macro.

I think it is possible with UOA macros (for them to mistime and lose one) - to lose one - I used to always do that, it may be more an issue with UOA macros for you.

I myself have stopped using UOA, and play purely in Classic Client now, it deals with most things - except Supernova, which I would like to be built in.

Which shard and what is/was your ping to the server you were testing on?
(for reference)

Also, can you do test without UOA?

The reason I ask is because this message pops up when you hit the box:

at the exact time where the "you can move" should be.

Theory: UOA is evaluating contents of the container causing client-side lag.

This is from pub 46 patch notes back in 2007.  Nerve strike paralysis is now breakable on hit...does it say "sometimes breakable" or "may break" on hit? Nope.

Here is a second video demonstrating 20 in a row.  I was going to go for 30+, but I don't want to pay to reup on streamable for a bigger download size.  Want me to do it in multiple areas?  Multiple characters?  I've clicked the box to do it, shown even a non damage curse can break it, and have shown 20 and 8 in a row (separate videos).  You don't really think I sat there between 10 second stun immunities over and over fishing for 20 in a row do you?  Can we agree 20 is sufficient to demonstrate it's breakable every single time?https://streamable.com/555d8q

And Cov, I've already explained why nothing beside wrestling should have it.  Take a bardiche instead for a more practical answer, a weapon YOU suggested before.  Now I can perform an unbreakable stun and dismount in the next swing.  As demonstrated above and according to uo patch notes, nerve strike is breakable...every single time.  That's the difference.  

Not the point of the thread though.  I just want to qualify people's opinions on mechanics by demonstrating a lack of knowledge and apparently lack of execution according to your testing.  The fact you even have to "test" one of the most used specials in the game after 15 years should say enough in and of itself.  Meanwhile, players are in here that actually use and play against these mechanics on a daily basis and post to see change only to have a certain handful of "players" attempt to drown them out.  So when an easy opportunity to prove how little they know comes along, I'll take it.

Another example, I had Higgs try to tell me in discord that mass sleep puts someone on stun timer and therefore you can't sleep then para/nerve someone.  That was his reasoning for why I could box out of a nerve lol.  Sleep isn't a paralyze.  Sleep doesn't put you on paralyze timer.  If you were active participants in pvp over the course of the last two years this would be obvious.  We have players on our side and against us that run mystic bokuto purely for that combo.  Readers should know the caliber of player that information is coming from here.

sibble said:

Which shard and what is/was your ping to the server you were testing on?
(for reference)

Also, can you do test without UOA?

The reason I ask is because this message pops up when you hit the box:

at the exact time where the "you can move" should be.

Theory: UOA is evaluating contents of the container causing client-side lag.

"How do you get the roast pig to spin at 3 x speed?"

CovenantX said:

George said:

In my experience when a box doesn't break a nerve strike, it's because the box was used too quickly and UO is very subjective to problematic latency, both with high and low pings.

Also, @ CovenantX could you try the test again but this time without Cheat Engine? It could be a contributing factor to inconsistent results.

before the QQ: i'm not bashing, it's just that the damage numbers over your head and how quickly they fade aren't modifiable, unlike speech, words of power, incoming names, etc.

    Sure that's valid.  there are times it breaks earlier than it does in other attempts.

 

I have an overclocked processor, but the results are exactly the same on my other PC which does not,  the only inconsistency is the time in which nerve is broken... as it was with prior tests.

Is that why on your deathstriker's client it's footstep sounds are normal, and incoming names and text stay on it's screen the default amount of time, but your other chr has sped up damage text and footstep sounds? Because that'd be more indicative of something like a Cheat Engine with a specific client selected and the "speedhack" option enabled, rather than an overclocked CPU which would be affecting both of the clients, and doesn't actually work the way you're insisting it does at all.

CovenantX said:

  it should break no matter the timing, as long as you're 'stunned/paralyzed' when the 'break is attempted.    It's not the case with any other specials in the game that I'm aware of.  

So we are admitting my timing is way better than yours ? 🙂

As Ive never had a fail, and you fail 20% of the time ?

{I genuinely think it is lag issues, or the UOA timing messing up btw}.

I don't get that issue in CC macro.

Cookie said:

CovenantX said:

  it should break no matter the timing, as long as you're 'stunned/paralyzed' when the 'break is attempted.    It's not the case with any other specials in the game that I'm aware of.  

So we are admitting my timing is way better than yours ? 🙂

As Ive never had a fail, and you fail 20% of the time ?

{I genuinely think it is lag issues, or the UOA timing messing up btw}.

I don't get that issue in CC macro.

George said:

And as for your 2h-weapon logic, and why something that doesn't exist (2s STUN, not PARA, STUN.) shouldn't dictate nerfing something that does exist (Parry influenced by bushido). And this is crazy BUT. Imagine that instead of giving it to dexers who can evade and immediately use specials off of it, but that the prerequisite for this 2s STUN (NOT PARA. STUN.) was that you couldn't have anything in your hands at all in order to attempt it, and that it required 80 additional skill points on top of the 100-120 wrestling, which means no evasion, no chance to parry, a requirement to re-arm any weapon as a follow up, etc. Pretty crazy idea, right?

My suggestion in full:

•  2s stun available to all melee skills (Fencing, Macing Swords & Wrestling)
•  Requires the 'weapon skill' mastery to be active, - which causes 'Paralyzing Blow" to function as a 'Stunning Blow".
  

 No anatomy or tactics skill required for wrestling to perform stun-punch.

 hands-free not required.

Parry chance reduced by 40-50%  if Magery or Chivalry => 50.0

CovenantX said:

 

LearnMe said:

And Cov, I've already explained why nothing beside wrestling should have it.  Take a bardiche instead for a more practical answer, a weapon YOU suggested before.  Now I can perform an unbreakable stun and dismount in the next swing.  As demonstrated above and according to uo patch notes, nerve strike is breakable...every single time.  That's the difference.  

Not the point of the thread though.  I just want to qualify people's opinions on mechanics by demonstrating a lack of knowledge and apparently lack of execution according to your testing.  The fact you even have to "test" one of the most used specials in the game after 15 years should say enough in and of itself.  Meanwhile, players are in here that actually use and play against these mechanics on a daily basis and post to see change only to have a certain handful of "players" attempt to drown them out.  So when an easy opportunity to prove how little they know comes along, I'll take it.

  What's the problem with the bardiche?   I can't tell you the last time I saw someone use one...

 oh, nah I can.  @ lynk on GL in CREW about 5 years ago, around the time when Parry-mages were just becoming the meta cause global loot was 'new' at the time.

  so you couldn't just 2s stun (wrestling) then bola?  cause it seems like you're saying it shouldn't be possible for a dexer to do similar things.

The main difference would be the damage coming from the weapon.     the recent 'dismount' change narrows the window to dismount, though it's still pretty easy, as long as the stun isn't broken.     people still do it with riding swipe, even though riding swipe is always 100% breakable.   so it would be made a slight bit more consistent, since boxing wouldn't break it as a 'stun'  all it does is make the weapon more effective.   

   you could just avoid being dismounted by being on foot when the dismount is attempted. it would still be equally effective regardless of being stunned or para'd.     and of course, there's always a chance to miss anyway at 120 skill 45 dci vs 120 skill vs 45 hci.. 50/50 ~45/55 chance if the target is under HLD. (without parry).   

   Devs could just prevent paralyzing blow (weapon/wrestle special versions of 'paralyze' only) from being broken on self-inflicting damage, it would have a very similar result.

  I believe mysticism spells are unable to be interrupted by self inflicted damage (though I haven't tried it in many years) so a similar mechanic already exists.  -it'll be easy to see if that has changed, i rarely play a mystic though.

lol this guy.  What's the excuse for me showing it 20 times in a row?  Did I fish or edit that video too?  Am I just the luckiest player in the world?  I've used my box macro, I've double clicked the box, I've shown it broken by non damaging curse.  Give it a rest already.

Your above reply further demonstrates why I'm taking time to do this.  Do we have to run through every single weapon with paralyze? "When is the last time you saw a bardiche?" Does it matter when the last time I saw it was?  If you add an unbreakable stun to it you completely change the case for using one.  Wouldn't that be the point of giving weapons something new?  More reason to use them?  Why would I want to wrestle stun and bola someone for a 50/50 chance at best it lands, if they don't avoid it, and guarantees I'm on foot for 10 seconds?  

^ it's this line of thinking that show that these players aren't even participants in pvp.  Comparing being able to hit a dismount, while parrying and evading, with the ability to instantly remount if you miss to a bola with a several second wait, large opportunity to miss, and a guarantee that even if the bola is missed that the thrower is stuck on foot.  

And to rephrase the mysticism example because again you've misunderstood....your best buds reasoning for being able to break nerve strike was that "mass sleep" put you on stun timer.  In the same way you can't para blow someone on back to back swings, his poorly thought out reasoning was that mass sleep counted as a para, so the follow up nerve wouldn't para, therefore nothing to box out of.  This is what we're working with here.

You also still have refused to touch on why you will cry parry and evade constantly, but aren't in favor of an ability that will take away someone's ability to parry and evade while attempting it.  You're only argument is "SWORDS HAVE NERVE SO ALL WEPS SHOULD HAVE UNBREAKABLE STUN."

Seems odd that you don't seem to want to take the defensive abilities away from anyone, only add to their arsenal with this.

LearnMe said:

You also still have refused to touch on why you will cry parry and evade constantly, but aren't in favor of an ability that will take away someone's ability to parry and evade while attempting it.  You're only argument is "SWORDS HAVE NERVE SO ALL WEPS SHOULD HAVE UNBREAKABLE STUN."

Seems odd that you don't seem to want to take the defensive abilities away from anyone, only add to their arsenal with this.

CovenantX said:

LearnMe said:

You also still have refused to touch on why you will cry parry and evade constantly, but aren't in favor of an ability that will take away someone's ability to parry and evade while attempting it.  You're only argument is "SWORDS HAVE NERVE SO ALL WEPS SHOULD HAVE UNBREAKABLE STUN."

Seems odd that you don't seem to want to take the defensive abilities away from anyone, only add to their arsenal with this.

   I did, a 4s stun is better offensively than what parry does for you defensively..

If you stun, wall/disarm, you have free-reign for however long you can successfully prevent a teleport from being cast.   in a group, well... the wall wouldn't be necessary because 4s should be plenty of time to kill someone that's incapacitated.

   the 2nd sentence claims I don't want to take the defensive abilities away from anyone?  what do you think a parry-nerf would do exactly, if it wasn't for that exact purpose?

 

   I don't mind a 2s stun being added to the arsenal,  but since para-blow for weapons is the same level of USELESSNESS as Wrestling's Para-blow.    they should just be changed to stun, to make them  useful.   

 Look at it this way.

a 2s stun can be taken advantage of by a mage because spells reliably hit, as long as they're not interrupted.... a stunned player won't be interrupting much of anything.  ok?

a 2s stun is RNG dependant for a dexer to benefit from it, because they always have a chance to miss, while the target is stunned.  

There is so much wrong with this...again.  How is a 4s stun relevant to any argument if you're advocating for a 2s stun?  That's a huge difference.  Why does it matter if any stun is better offensively than parry is defensively?  YOU CAN HAVE BOTH if it's implemented per your suggestion.  You literally don't have to weigh the options because you get both.  If it's an empty handed wrestle ability THEN you have to weigh offense vs defense. 

I think one of the main issues here is you're looking at it as a "para vs para" whereas I believe most players would look at it as para/disarm vs para/disarm/nerve/dismount/mortal/splinter/bleed/poison/frenzied whirlwind/armor ignore WHILE being able to parry and evade.  Maybe bunny is on to something.  Bows can hit armor ignore from 10 tiles, why doesn't my leafblade armor ignore from 10 tiles?  Seems unfair.

And by the way, the viking sword was relevant to my point because a base swing from it can hit upward of 30 before hit spell.  Seems illogical to compare a possible 45 damage unbreakable stun to a 1 damage wrestle stun.  Remember, I've already shown ya nerve is breakable every single time.

LearnMe said:

You also still have refused to touch on why you will cry parry and evade constantly, but aren't in favor of an ability that will take away someone's ability to parry and evade while attempting it.  You're only argument is "SWORDS HAVE NERVE SO ALL WEPS SHOULD HAVE UNBREAKABLE STUN."

Seems odd that you don't seem to want to take the defensive abilities away from anyone, only add to their arsenal with this.

We did explain why its an issue to give mages more offense over dexxers cause its already unbalanced to where caster is 5 times then any 1-tile character.  Re-read the other discussion again.  Seems to me like your just ignoring posted facts and prove just to sell your side of the argument which is false.   We are trying to bring balance and more template diversity to pvp not making it worse which is what a 4 sec stun on wrestle would do.    

And stop using the excuse of the past 5 years of pvp as some reason that people dont know about pvp.  Pvp is has been completely broken for the past  5 years on top of the introduction of many more 3rd party clients which bolster meta of fake lousy pvp.   The massive skill increase plus parry/evade combined with caster templates is bad for balance and pvp as a whole.   Its been easy button nonsense plus people only running in big groups, if you dont have ten plus dont bother to login.  I chose to stay oout of this bad version of pvp cause its pointless and dumb and lacks skill and talent.  

Higgs, should I find the multiple quotes of you complaining that everyone has evasion and bokutos?  If they are empty handed stunning, what aren't they holding?  Can you parry or evade with empty hands?  I'll let you guys go cast evasion with empty hands 50 times and let me know the test results.  Hopefully that's one even you guys won't manage to screw up.

Let's not confuse the opinions of two players who don't play or understand decade old mechanics with "facts" either.

??????? What?????  Are you suggesting that the introduction of a wrestle stun that everyone is going to stop playing evade mages???!!!  Are wrestle parry mystics going to disappear over night?  So you have one or two people use this template for its stun ability which going to be wrestle parry 99.5% of the time until they attempt a stun for a cpl secs.  How does that help template diversity again??  Im so confused by your illogical statements

LearnMe said:

Let's not confuse the opinions of two players who don't play or understand decade old mechanics with "facts" either.

The_Higgs_1 said:

??????? What?????  Are you suggesting that the introduction of a wrestle stun that everyone is going to stop playing evade mages???!!!  Are wrestle parry mystics going to disappear over night?  So you have one or two people use this template for its stun ability which going to be wrestle parry 99.5% of the time until they attempt a stun for a cpl secs.  How does that help template diversity again??  Im so confused by your illogical statements

You realize to do the pre-aos stun as it was being done required wrestling and anatomy, correct?  Go ahead and add up the skills for a mystic parry wrestle mage with anat.  If you would like me to save you the effort, you would need about 200 skill inc.  Good luck with that endeavor.  What kind of evade mage is also going to fit wrestling on their temp?    

Do you want me to break this down into a few simple yes or no questions to help you piece this together?  
1. Are you empty handed if you have a weapon in your hand to evade with?  (no)
2. Can you evade or parry if you have empty hands? (no)
3. Are you aware that equipping and unequipping shields and weapons put you on an item timer? (probably not)
4. Does template diversity mean "everyone" has to stop playing evaders? (no, it just adds another option)

CovenantX said:

LearnMe said:

Let's not confuse the opinions of two players who don't play or understand decade old mechanics with "facts" either.

   as far as I'm concerned, the difference between nervestrikes para and every other special & shield-bash's para-effects.  that's what proves my point, they are not the same.    if you want to continue dwelling on it, I'm not going to stop you..

Is this a complete sentence?  As far as you're concerned the difference between them is.... what?  By your own argument, if a nerve strike stun and any other weapon para blow isn't the same, then why in the world would you use nerve strike as a case for other weapons getting the unbreakable stun?  One minute you're arguing that all weapons should get the proposed stun because of nerve strike, then the next you're saying nerves aren't like other weapon stuns. 

Do you really not see what's wrong with comparing a 1 damage stun/disarm ability to a weapon class that can do 45 damage stuns along with ai/frenzied/mortal/splinter/bleed/disarm/evade/parry/etc etc etc?  

With the line of "logic" you're trying to follow, all weapons should have 10 tile range and bows should get 35 damage ai's back.

LearnMe said:

CovenantX said:

LearnMe said:

Let's not confuse the opinions of two players who don't play or understand decade old mechanics with "facts" either.

   as far as I'm concerned, the difference between nervestrikes para and every other special & shield-bash's para-effects.  that's what proves my point, they are not the same.    if you want to continue dwelling on it, I'm not going to stop you..

Is this a complete sentence?  As far as you're concerned the difference between them is.... what?  By your own argument, if a nerve strike stun and any other weapon para blow isn't the same, then why in the world would you use nerve strike as a case for other weapons getting the unbreakable stun?  One minute you're arguing that all weapons should get the proposed stun because of nerve strike, then the next you're saying nerves aren't like other weapon stuns. 

Do you really not see what's wrong with comparing a 1 damage stun/disarm ability to a weapon class that can do 45 damage stuns along with ai/frenzied/mortal/splinter/bleed/disarm/evade/parry/etc etc etc?  

With the line of "logic" you're trying to follow, all weapons should have 10 tile range and bows should get 35 damage ai's back.

the only solution here is to unnerf ninja....

Who would be better than to explain mechanics than the developers?  Would love for one to chime in...

We are on the official forums, right?

Oh wait, we're discussing the use of these never-ending trap boxes that were probably never meant to exist in the first place but they were left in because they acted like some kind of balance for PVP.

If you've never used one, make sure it's turned the right way cause if the art is facing the wrong way it doesn't work. KEKW

Top-notch stuff here.

My guess is no one official wants to chime in because this entire use of trap boxes seems like a gray area.

"i was unable to reproduce @CovenantX 's results, i was able to trapped box out of nerve strike every attempt using both the uoassist macro and the ingame trapped box macro, i personally don't often trapped box out of nerve in the field and just wait it out, and those who i do nerve who do have a script to auto trapped box, i have not witnessed it fail to release them"

LearnMe said:

The_Higgs_1 said:

??????? What?????  Are you suggesting that the introduction of a wrestle stun that everyone is going to stop playing evade mages???!!!  Are wrestle parry mystics going to disappear over night?  So you have one or two people use this template for its stun ability which going to be wrestle parry 99.5% of the time until they attempt a stun for a cpl secs.  How does that help template diversity again??  Im so confused by your illogical statements

You realize to do the pre-aos stun as it was being done required wrestling and anatomy, correct?  Go ahead and add up the skills for a mystic parry wrestle mage with anat.  If you would like me to save you the effort, you would need about 200 skill inc.  Good luck with that endeavor.  What kind of evade mage is also going to fit wrestling on their temp?    

Do you want me to break this down into a few simple yes or no questions to help you piece this together?  
1. Are you empty handed if you have a weapon in your hand to evade with?  (no)
2. Can you evade or parry if you have empty hands? (no)
3. Are you aware that equipping and unequipping shields and weapons put you on an item timer? (probably not)
4. Does template diversity mean "everyone" has to stop playing evaders? (no, it just adds another option)

Uuuggghh.  Do you have bad reading comprehesion or what?  Literally all i said was how does this idea help template diversity.  Bokuto mages will still be meta, along with all the variant wrestle parry mages.  All your asking is pure wrestle parry mage to in the mix.  I never said anything about another template adding anatomy.  I said evade mages and wrestle parry mages (regardless of what other skills are combined) is what is so broken, that 1- tile chars are basically useless, only way archers or 1- tilers can be involved is with a 4/6 or smoke bomb.  And even those are useless against the huge zergs of people who call this current meta pvp.

FOR REFERENCE

This is an example of how fast you can break out of paralyzing blow.

https://streamable.com/0qu7gd
(this video was taken 7 years ago)

I believe this thread has now served its purpose.