Pre-AoS Stun

Lynk 2021-06-09 16:17 #0

Please consider adding the Pre-AOS unbreakable stun to wrestling mastery, and tie the duration to real skill in wrestle/anat and mastery level, scaling from 1 second to four seconds. Leave the requirement of empty hands in place.

It will require a huge skill point/equipment sacrifice to use it, and leave you quite vulnerable in the process.

As it is, the wrestling mastery is useless. I'm sure if you did a quick peek at number of players who actually use it, you'll see that no one does.

CovenantX 2021-06-09 19:00 #1

you're kidding right, giving up a weapon OR shield on a Mage for a 4s stun that's even closer to impossible for a dexer to compete with than your standard Parry-mage?

Wrestling-Mastery is pretty damn useless.... but Parry Mastery isn't bad and wrestling is the only combat skill paired with it that doesn't have any real sacrifices.

Wrestling Mastery is useless when there's been several useless masteries with very little to no mention... in addition to the timing of this discussion it never ceases to amaze. but carry on!

Lynk 2021-06-09 20:15 #2

I get it covenant, you want to run around weakening people for another 20 years.

Favian 2021-06-09 21:44 #3

would need a timer as well.

CovenantX 2021-06-09 21:52 #4

nah, what I really want are two things.

1) Reduced parry chance if magery => 50.0 (50% reduction in parry chance)

2) Block login attempts via unapproved programs.

I'd still like to see casting focus removed from pvp as well as the poison immunity aka 'free cure'.(as my sig says...) but dueling is non-existent so i guess that doesn't really matter anymore.

George 2021-06-09 22:00 #5

Covenant doesn't seem to understand that the problem with the game right now is a lack of diversity, which is disturbing for someone who has "eliminate chance in pvp" as their signature. What is being played right now? Splinter/Evade/Mage, Splinter/Evade/Dexer, Balakai/Evade/Mage, Parry/Mage, Splinter/Parry/Chiv/Glenda.

This stun really is no worse than splinter, a free bleed + force walk (tHaT cOsTs DuRaBiLiTy) and it busts the runaway forever evasion meta while also keeping the stunner squishy and vulnerable with only wrestling + dci to rely on and no evasion for dumps. And to anyone who thinks otherwise, I invite them to step away from their zerg, make a wrestle dci mage without parry, and give it a go for a day.

Reduce the stun to two seconds, re-introduce it through the ingame macro, and make the cost a flat 20-25% of the user's max stamina.

We have more ways to survive with gross suits, templates, and consumables than UOR players. Yet they manage just fine.

Bilbo 2021-06-10 00:29 #6

https://forum.uo.com/discussion/8823/pre-age-of-shadows-stun-in-effect

The_Higgs_1 2021-06-10 00:32 #7

Remove evasion from casting schools and template diversity will show up!!

CovenantX 2021-06-10 01:08 #8

lack of diversity is one of the problems in the game right now, sure... but a 4s stun-punch is going to do the opposite of what you're arguing. even at 2s it'll be stupid enough to phase out half the templates on your very small list of 100% parry-using templates LOL

I'm also not sure how someone would come to the conclusion that:

a 4s Unbreakable stun is less powerful than a breakable 4s forced walk + bleed weapon proc. especially when you take into account what it can be combined with it.

Splintering is very powerful for a weapon proc, sure. but game-breaking? even if you go through the full un-broken effect of a splinter proc, it's not even close to what a 4s stun would be by people who actually know what they're doing.

Btw, i already play without Parry+Evade, I play all mages, all the time (because parry makes playing a dexer boring A F).... 80-90% of the people I fight have parry though, the ~10-20% that don't can't because they're archers/throwers. so you'd be asking the wrong guy to play without parry.

I'd rather see short cooldown on trapped boxes. I'm not a fan of them either, but i sure as s**t ain't a fan of making wrestling the best 'weapon skill' in the game because of only one perk.

George 2021-06-10 04:01 #9

There are plenty of ways to work around the four second stun. Turkey feathers, seed of life, teleport ring, xheals, pre-evasion, heal pot, spellweaving buffs, invis items, barrab potion, things that are being used very frequently right now.

The only people I've seen who say that there is nothing game breaking about splinter are people who crutch splinter either personally or by proxy of having a splinter bot in their group. There is a reason why 90% of the pvp meta on the only server with any actual competitive pvp is based around it. There is a reason the devs have tried to nerf it multiple times and still haven't managed to hinder it in any meaningful way.

Given the dev's track record for almost everything they touch pvp wise, it baffles me why people are begging them to reinvent the wheel in the shape of re-structured core mechanics instead of simply adding one thing that breaks that meta up.

Some other guy said it best in a post on discord, and like it or not, they are right. "With the current state of the PvP meta, a short unbreakable stun is what this game needs."

Why? Because third party client assistants run unregulated, allowing people to automate trapped crates. And guess what, those client assistants and scripts aren't going anywhere. Not because the devs don't care, but because there isn't anything they can do about them. All the talk about "blocking them" etc is pointless. Those are freeserver specific handshakes.

You want them to re-design how evasion, bushido, parry all interact with magery? It will fail, like the majority of all the other PvP targeted re-designs, and then be left in a worse off state than it is now.

The answer is obvious, and hey the stun punch could have been worse. It could have been doing 50+ dmg per hit, proccing a splinter at no additional resource cost, and hit spell on top of the paralyze.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Cookie 2021-06-10 15:26 #10

I can see @lynk and @george points.

Wrestling mastery is underpowered. The game could maybe use a proper stun for mages - afterall, they cannot dismount easily. It would counter dismount nicely. Make players move away from this.

It would also promote cross healing and teamwork.

There is a lack of diversity in the game, imo, everything is a Dexxer these days - ie, due to the extraordinary amount of Dex they have. Be it a Dexxer with Magery, or a Mage with Dexterity - all the same thing, it's all merged together. Even Parry Mages with 80+ Dex are Dexxers - imo - strange opinion I know, but you cannot persuade me otherwise. For a Pure Mage, that Dexterity is required in Mana, to actually cast a decent amount of spells.

I'm not going to get into another argument with @covenantx , I get his point that dexxers hitting players with parry is frustrating - but the truth is a. everyone is a dexxer {even the mages with their Dex/Boks etc} and b. everyone has parry because they have to, and c. it only takes 1 overpowered special from a dexxer to change a fight, so it doesn't matter if they miss 10 times, and get 1 dismount/nerve strike/splinter/deathstrike/lethal poison, the fight is almost over.

What would be good, would be to promote a character style, that does not need such high Dexterity - like the old fashioned mages. Making Wrestle Mastery more useful could help, and could maybe reduce Dexxers(everyone)/Parry.

CovenantX 2021-06-10 19:04 #11

George said:

There are plenty of ways to work around the four second stun. Turkey feathers, seed of life, teleport ring, xheals, pre-evasion, heal pot, spellweaving buffs, invis items, barrab potion, things that are being used very frequently right now.

The only people I've seen who say that there is nothing game breaking about splinter are people who crutch splinter either personally or by proxy of having a splinter bot in their group. There is a reason why 90% of the pvp meta on the only server with any actual competitive pvp is based around it. There is a reason the devs have tried to nerf it multiple times and still haven't managed to hinder it in any meaningful way.

your work arounds for a 4s stun also work against splintering weapon, but better... as well as the ones you didn't mention. but somehow splintering is worse, immunity timer, offense & defense as well as limited mobility are still in play While splintered... literally none of it is in play with a stun.

yea, the reason for splinter is to prevent people from easily getting away from 1-tile dexers. Why do you think it spawns only on melee weapons?

The problem with splintering is that template that don't need it are able to use it. that's it, you take splintering weapon away from templates with Magery, Throwing or Archery... splintering is no longer an issue. cause the only templates beyond that have worse offense.

Personally I don't like that splintering is a hit-spell, tbh it should be something tied to swords, macing & fencing mastery restricted with <50.0 in magery, archery, or throwing of course. just so a dexer can have more control over when it goes off, instead of its randomness, but that's just me.

90% of the pvp meta is based around evasion too, what's your point?

George said:

We have more ways to survive with gross suits, templates, and consumables than UOR players. Yet they manage just fine.

get rid of parry, that's one less crutch to survive.

Cookie said:

I can see @ lynk and @ george points.
Wrestling mastery is underpowered. The game could maybe use a proper stun for mages - afterall, they cannot dismount easily. It would counter dismount nicely. Make players move away from this.

There is a lack of diversity in the game, imo, everything is a Dexxer these days - ie, due to the extraordinary amount of Dex they have. Be it a Dexxer with Magery, or a Mage with Dexterity - all the same thing, it's all merged together. Even Parry Mages with 80+ Dex are Dexxers - imo - strange opinion I know, but you cannot persuade me otherwise. For a Pure Mage, that Dexterity is required in Mana, to actually cast a decent amount of spells.
I'm not going to get into another argument with @ covenantx , I get his point that dexxers hitting players with parry is frustrating - but the truth is a. everyone is a dexxer {even the mages with their Dex/Boks etc} and b. everyone has parry because they have to, and c. it only takes 1 overpowered special from a dexxer to change a fight, so it doesn't matter if they miss 10 times, and get 1 dismount/nerve strike/splinter/deathstrike/lethal poison, the fight is almost over.
What would be good, would be to promote a character style, that does not need such high Dexterity - like the old fashioned mages. Making Wrestle Mastery more useful could help, and could maybe reduce Dexxers(everyone)/Parry.

@cookie ;

everyone agrees that Wrestling Mastery is underpowered, so are some other masteries, only a few are actually useful in pvp.

your point about everything being a dexer. I get it, the problem with it is that a dexer most often has no other source of damage OR interruption aside from their weapon, you won't kill anyone with less than 3 hits, most people will take a minimum of 5 hits.

Now a Mage with a weapon doesn't need to land a hit anywhere near as often as a dexer does, because 80% of their damage is coming from spells, which will reliably hit... and not only that, they often do more damage than most attacks any dexer can perform.

it doesn't matter if a dexer misses 10 times.... then suddenly lands 5 hits in a row. you sit there for those 12..5s + doing nothing while the dexer is missing? what kind of example is that? I mean, i wouldn't be surprised about 10 misses in a row, It happens when I fight dexers sometimes and I don't have parry. generally they're either dead or running to keep themselves from dying at that point.

You talk about promoting a char style that doesn't need Dex.... but you know the only templates that need dex at all are Parry mages & Healing Mages.... and of course almost every type of dexer because their weapon is useless if it doesn't attack fast enough to stop people from healing. as if it's ever going to hit often enough to do it is another story... I don't have more than 10 dex (some at 15 'real dex" no more than 30-35 with mods) on any mage right now. Mages have no need for dex, even as a tank-mage unless you add Parry / bushido... or healing.

I mean, who gives a f--- about how fast the weapon swings when you only need it to hit once during or after a combo?

@Cookie ; I'd like you to give me an example of an "Overpowered Dexer Special" that's is more dangerous coming from a straight dexer, than it is from any template with either Magery, archery or throwing. I'm going to say there are none, but I've been surprised before..

Cookie 2021-06-10 19:45 #12

CovenantX said:

@ Cookie I'd like you to give me an example of an "Overpowered Dexer Special" that's is more dangerous coming from a straight dexer, than it is from any template with either Magery, archery or throwing. I'm going to say there are none, but I've been surprised before..

Deathstrike? Can hit for 50, 3 hits in a row dead if moving, and can stack.

Lethal Poison Nox Dexxer? - can take 10-20 cures to finally work (even with 50EP), by which time you are usually dead.

I do wonder if a lot of our differences are solo play v group play. I play in groups. My experience of solo play, is everything is pretty much stalemate. Any decent player, will play to a draw usually. It is only in group play, that the different skills come to play. And at that point, some skills are way more OP on the group dynamic than others. You just cannot play a mage without parry, in group play. Or quite frankly against the dexxers I play against, in solo play.

Lynk 2021-06-10 21:18 #13

Why are you guys hijacking this thread to whine about parry being overpowered. Dexer disarm syncs > evaders, evaders > mage syncs, mage syncs > wrestle parry. It's a rock paper scissor.

You cannot further reduce parry for casters. Dexers will be completely overpowered. If you truly think your non-parry mage can beat either of my dexers I'd be happy to prove you wrong.

I'd be open to nerfing parry for ALL templates, but not just casters.

Lynk 2021-06-10 21:21 #14

Favian said:

would need a timer as well.

Theres a timer on the mechanic already, both on the recipient and the stunner. I believe it is 5 seconds. I'd say probably align it with other paralyze/nerve timers at 10s.

George 2021-06-10 23:28 #15

@CovenantX you seem to make your arguments based on some degree of personal bias. You should try to set that aside and look at the entire scope of what's happened to PvP as a whole, and not just what you've seen in your apparent and very obvious narrow/limited view of it.

CovenantX 2021-06-11 00:08 #16

Lynk said:

Favian said:

would need a timer as well.

Theres a timer on the mechanic already, both on the recipient and the stunner. I believe it is 5 seconds. I'd say probably align it with other paralyze/nerve timers at 10s.

you're wrong... the stunner has the cooldown timer, the recipient has nothing. meaning in a group fight, say 2-3 wrestle mages vs whatever the hell you want the other templates to be, unless they had the ability to stun as well, the winners will always be the people with stun.

you could even stun while someone is under paralysis immunity, Obviously you didn't know about it, but it didn't take long for you to start whining to bring it back in some way shape or form.

you're thinking about the paralyzing blow immunity. which is the recipient only. they did not carry over at all with the stun that was just fixed.

if anything, paralyzing blow should just be a 2s stun, with a 20-30s immunity timer. no cooldown necessary. only applicable if the weapon skill (or wrestling) Mastery is active during the use,

If the active mastery isn't a weapon skill mastery, it'll function as paralyzing blow does currently. Riding swipe & Nerve Strike shouldn't be affected.

The stun 100% cannot be something only available to wrestling, it more than a 2s duration is very excessive.

George said:
Reduce the stun to two seconds, re-introduce it through the ingame macro, and make the cost a flat 20-25% of the user's max stamina.

20-25% of the users max stamina? That is not a cost'of substance whatsoever, stamina as a resource wouldn't work in current UO, where Stamina regeneration from items or skills can top it off on their own before the stun immunity would even be expired (if we go with the same timers as paralyzing blow). and refresh potions would cause this resource to be meaningless as well... . What kind of "Cost" is that? get that garbage out of here.

@Cookie ; Deathstrike isn't a special, but for sake of argument.... a dexer's DS & a Mages DS are literally the same... but a mage generally already has delayed spells enroute to combo with it. dexers essentially start their 'combo' over with each swing, because 1 or 2 misses and they're back to square one because they're unable to prevent healing or incoming spell damage.

same exact thing as it relates to LP, mages can apply it via weapon... you argue about cure potions failing on it all the time, but you seem to be with the majority of people who just chug (with or without a script) as soon as they're poisoned, instead of using any skill-based methods at all... this is why you guys feel like dexers are over powering, no body has timing anymore. hence one of the reasons, i sometimes say.. there aren't any good pvpers left in UO anymore.

you can literally cast Arch-Cure between every single swing (even if you're hit 100% of the time, which will Never happen) without interruption because it's a 1.00s cast (at 2 fc) vs a 1.25s+ weapon-based attack. but i guess when you can compensate the lack of timing with consumables in every situation and/or a simple "if true" script, That is to be expected.

Lynk said:

You cannot further reduce parry for casters. Dexers will be completely overpowered. If you truly think your non-parry mage can beat either of my dexers I'd be happy to prove you wrong.

I'd be open to nerfing parry for ALL templates, but not just casters.

you say further reduce parry for casters like it's been done.... it hasn't happened. they reduced SDI (Parry counts against focus spec) Not parry block chance which has always been the problem with casters using parry, Missed/blocked attacks, means less interruption. it has nothing to do with the actual damage a dexer could potentially deal out.

I don' t see a point in nerfing parry for templates that lack the offense to do anything but survive on it.. but breaking parry across the board for everything would be the next best option.... anything that gets parry out of the way would be a hell of a lot better than it is under the current system.

George 2021-06-11 00:46 #17

Lol "refresh pot makes it not a resource" "stamina regen makes it obsolete". One of the first videos that got pushed out was from the POV of a wrestle/archer. Tell me, how fast is 50 stamina going to be regenerated without a pot? Not very fast? Now use a refresh pot, that's an object cooldown, which means they have to wait 1 second to equip their weapon, then another second to swing their weapon. With a 2 second duration stun, that means they're not getting smashed by the archer.

This is why trammies have little to no place exhibiting an opinion in pvp balancing, the state of VvV and a lot of what is wrong with PvP now versus PvP 5 years ago is a direct result of developer bias against PvPers and listening to trammies with no real experience and only biased hypothetical as the basis to their arguments.

We get it, you went to destard once and got PKed. Stick to what you're good at, soloing Cora.

@CovenantX

CovenantX 2021-06-11 00:58 #18

George said:

@ CovenantX you seem to make your arguments based on some degree of personal bias. You should try to set that aside and look at the entire scope of what's happened to PvP as a whole, and not just what you've seen in your apparent and very obvious narrow/limited view of it.

Means a lot coming from someone so clearly oblivious to the issues.

literally the only thing you said that was accurate is the 'lack of template diversity issue' then you proceed with suggestions that would make it worse. you should take your own advice and look at the entire scope of the situation instead of suggesting something that is completely contradictory to what you're trying to accomplish.

What have I said that is inaccurate? I've pointed out the problem with your argument. you are purposefully vague because you have nothing. as expected.

I'm not going to argue about personal bias when the facts and my bias' both conclude with the same end result. So you want a stun punch why? let's see that answer without 'personal bias'.

I hope we have enough cheese to go with all this whine, it's going to be a long road... or river.

George 2021-06-11 01:16 #19

Point and case, lmao. Everyone is wrong except you, ignore anything substantial because you personally don't want to deal with it, regardless of the beneficial impact it would have to re-shuffling the meta. What is your concern? That instead of running away from a nerve strike splinter mage you're going to have to run away from a stun mage? That everyone is going to re-roll stun mages? That the stun is set in stone and isn't able to be changed outside of your two days of experiencing it? That god forbid you have to actually learn how to play the game to play against it instead of being able to run away forever?

News flash: Every group would probably pick up one, maybe two stun mages. Why? To perform the same task archers used to play, the same role that wakizashi death strikers became better at before the waki nerf, the same role that anything with splinter became the king of. Incapacitate into a synch.

Welcome to Covenant Online, where nobody flags and serverlines are plentiful. A house is always nearby and the competition is always on a different server.

CovenantX 2021-06-11 02:04 #20

George said:

Lol "refresh pot makes it not a resource" "stamina regen makes it obsolete". One of the first videos that got pushed out was from the POV of a wrestle/archer. Tell me, how fast is 50 stamina going to be regenerated without a pot? Not very fast? Now use a refresh pot, that's an object cooldown, which means they have to wait 1 second to equip their weapon, then another second to swing their weapon. With a 2 second duration stun, that means they're not getting smashed by the archer.

This is why trammies have little to no place exhibiting an opinion in pvp balancing, the state of VvV and a lot of what is wrong with PvP now versus PvP 5 years ago is a direct result of developer bias against PvPers and listening to trammies with no real experience and only biased hypothetical as the basis to their arguments.

We get it, you went to destard once and got PKed. Stick to what you're good at, soloing Cora.

@ CovenantX

If 20-25% of your maximum stamina is the cost, that's anywhere from 2 - 62 stamina the less you run the better off you are. you don't know how your own proposal would work? sure seems like it.

. you don't need stamina to swing some weapons at max speed btw. SSI is enough for most weapons people actually use now... game mechanics aren't your strong suit that much is blatantly obvious. I guess coming from a UOR player, you wouldn't know these things. or you're leaving them out for your personal agenda.... hard to tell sometimes. but I'd go with the former on this one, for now, until it becomes more apparent with potential future evidence.

Hey bud, Destard on any character is more dangerous than guardzone on a blue. wouldn't you agree?

. . .

Where did Cora come from? at least parry is a legitimate issue in pvp.

you're throwing everything to the wall to see what sticks because like I said, you've got nothing.

CovenantX 2021-06-11 02:10 #21

George said:

Point and case, lmao. Everyone is wrong except you, ignore anything substantial because you personally don't want to deal with it, regardless of the beneficial impact it would have to re-shuffling the meta. What is your concern?

that's not what I'm saying at all. I never said I was the only one with the answers. if that's how you interpret criticism of a garbage suggestion... Well that's on you.

It's better for the devs to do nothing, than it is to go with your suggestion or lynk's suggestion in the OP. that's just a bad start, definitely not my fault.

The_Higgs_1 2021-06-11 03:22 #22

Im still waiting on the explanation of how it would reshuffle anything at all in pvp. People already play wrestle parry mystic mages, wrestle parry necro mages. All max offense and max defense PLUS range. So someone takes off mystic or necro for your anatomy and uses that nonsense. Nothing else changes, evade mages, a form of wrestle parry mage, and 4/6 chiv evade still top meta in PvP. Plus with your suggestion get a massive stun on top of it. LOLOLOL. Literally the worst idea for pvp ever.

Rorschach 2021-06-11 08:46 #23

This thread is becoming contentious and disrespectful. Refer to rules 7 and 1 of the terms of service.

Cookie 2021-06-11 09:29 #24

CovenantX said:



@ Cookie    Deathstrike isn't a special, but for sake of argument.... a dexer's DS & a Mages DS are literally the same... but a mage generally already has delayed spells enroute to combo with it. dexers essentially start their 'combo' over with each swing, because 1 or 2 misses and they're back to square one because they're unable to prevent healing or incoming spell damage.

same exact thing as it relates to LP, mages can apply it via weapon... you argue about cure potions failing on it all the time, but you seem to be with the majority of people who just chug (with or without a script) as soon as they're poisoned, instead of using any skill-based methods at all... this is why you guys feel like dexers are over powering, no body has timing anymore.   hence one of the reasons, i sometimes say.. there aren't any good pvpers left in UO anymore.

you can literally cast Arch-Cure between every single swing (even if you're hit 100% of the time, which will Never happen) without interruption because it's a 1.00s cast (at 2 fc) vs a 1.25s+ weapon-based attack. but i guess when you can compensate the lack of timing with consumables in every situation and/or a simple "if true" script, That is to be expected.

Funny re the Deathstrike - yes, strictly speaking you are correct, but as a move, it's acting like a special, so I'm sticking with it. 🙂

Re the LP you misunderstand my style of play badly. I'm a mage, I try the arch cures - I can tell you they are almost impossible to get in, especially when being disturbed by said fencer, or anyone else in his team. I don't use scripts, I do use arch cures, then bail onto cures when that has failed. Don't try and teach me to suck eggs.

I don't use scripts. I play in Classic Client with no additions in pvp. I have some of the best timing/experience ingame, because this is all I have ever done. This is also why I know I am correct when I debate.

And honestly, I'm done in this debate. I got Link and George's point, it could add something different than the same old tired routines out there atm, and could maybe change stuff. Everything you say, always seems to be from theory, I'd love to see you facing the nox dexxers I face and going "oh I'm sure my arch cure should be working here - my theorycraft told me it always does!" When I debate with you on pvp, it's like I'm debating with someone who has never done it before, wheras you can see from what Link and George say, they do actually pvp. I may agree or disagree with them, but at least I recognise their experiences, I don't recognise yours. Which usually means you do not pvp, because I know for sure I do. A lot.

ezikel 2021-06-11 11:08 #25

alone the Pre-AOS unbreakable stun to wrestling mastery can be good .but with the state of the game I cannot see how it would be beneficial for the pvp . it will only make archery and non-parry template even more unplayable .just imagine as combo nerve splinter stun its 6 7 sec you cannot do anything

Elvis 2021-06-11 14:39 #26

nobody talking of unbreakable stun efield trap move. with script for the noob use

CovenantX 2021-06-11 17:30 #27

Cookie said:
Funny re the Deathstrike - yes, strictly speaking you are correct, but as a move, it's acting like a special, so I'm sticking with it. 🙂
Re the LP you misunderstand my style of play badly. I'm a mage, I try the arch cures - I can tell you they are almost impossible to get in, especially when being disturbed by said fencer, or anyone else in his team. I don't use scripts, I do use arch cures, then bail onto cures when that has failed. Don't try and teach me to suck eggs.
I don't use scripts. I play in Classic Client with no additions in pvp. I have some of the best timing/experience ingame, because this is all I have ever done. This is also why I know I am correct when I debate.

DS acts like a special in the sense it requires the weapon (or wrestling) to hit for it to go off.

that's why I added "for sake of argument" and detailed further why dexers are not as good with it as a mage is. and thanks I know I'm correct because I play my DS mages sometimes, one of the only things that punish people for running.

I find the 3rd paragraph unbelievable, specifically the last sentence.

you're saying you're correct when you debate (in favor of) stun punch... except we've had stun punch back when the pace of pvp was much slower than it is today. in today's pvp 4s stun is long enough to kill almost anyone in a one vs one setting. and easily extended if you think you'd need more time. particularly against non-casters without unobtainable items (teleport rings).

We've had times in the history of pvp where things that were not even as powerful as the suggestion in the OP caused the meta to shift to only one thing. causing pvp to get boring real f-ing fast. that's exactly what would happen again if this stun hadn't been fixed, and you guys didn't waste much time before you started asking for it back. It's very sad and amusing at the same time.

Elvis said:

nobody talking of unbreakable stun efield trap move. with script for the noob use

yea, it was mentioned in one of these threads.... it's highly anti-dexer. & pro group strat vs any template, with only a one-template option to use it. this suggestion was dead on arrival in my mind. I'm not even completely against a stun. but this is just ridiculous.

You can still stun people via different method, but there's quite a bit* of RNG involved. so it wouldn't be practical, more useful in a group than it would be as a solo player. I'll let the "Pvpers" figure it out on their own, since they think they're correct in all of it.

CovenantX 2021-06-11 17:39 #28

Rorschach said:

This thread is becoming contentious and disrespectful. Refer to rules 7 and 1 of the terms of service.

You know what?

From UO.com

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It's beyond unacceptable that the forum rules are more strictly enforced than the in-game rules.

it should be the other way around at minimum.

Half the people posting in this thread wouldn't know where to start in pvp if these "Rules" were enforced.

Cookie 2021-06-11 22:07 #29

CovenantX said:



you're saying you're correct when you debate (in favor of) stun punch... except we've had stun punch back when the pace of pvp was much slower than it is today.      in today's pvp 4s stun is long enough to kill almost anyone in a one vs one setting. and easily extended if you think you'd need more time. particularly against non-casters without unobtainable items (teleport rings).

We've had times in the history of pvp where things that were not even as powerful as the suggestion in the OP caused the meta to shift to only one thing. causing pvp to get boring real f-ing fast.     that's exactly what would happen again if this stun hadn't been fixed, and you guys didn't waste much time before you started asking for it back.     It's very sad and amusing at the same time.

I debated in favour of improving wrestling mastery. And, it would help change the meta. They did suggest adding weaknesses, it wasnt the final solution.

My thought, it may help, if VvV anti paralysis worked against it, as the only thing, that may even have a use then.

The_Higgs_1 2021-06-12 05:26 #30

Current meta right now Mages 3-5X Better then any dexxer, adding this so called change to pvp. Mages 20X better then dexxers. How is dexxers are OP again? LOLOL

LearnMe 2021-06-15 05:24 #31

Kinda odd, Higgs is here constantly crying about mages being OP, but here he is in discord saying how easy playing a 1 tile macer is. Which is it Higgs? Are 1 tilers "easy button trash pvp" like you stated in this snip or are mages easy mode?

As far as the stun punch goes, make it a wrestle mastery. You're incredibly vulnerable having to run into a group empty handed (you can't parry or evade) so it's obvious to see and easy to target whoever is doing it. The current group meta is someone leading with a sleep and trying to splinter and disarm the target. A vast majority of the players just run away the full time they're on evade or apple timer. Auto boxes doing a whopping 4 damage can be spammed so current stuns are nearly worthless. All that three days of being able to stun someone did was make it glaringly obvious which guilds are slow on crossheals and struggle to play while not being able to just pop evade, apple, mana shield their way out of a fight for 30 seconds.

People can run around hitting 80 damage glenda/bashes with one swing still but we're in here crying about someone getting stunned for 1 damage.

sibble 2021-06-15 13:03 #32

LearnMe said:

Kinda odd, Higgs is here constantly crying about mages being OP,

not mages, just parry mages

I see no problem adding stun to the game as long as they reduce block/evade chance for caster templates

just asking for a little balance here its really not asking for a lot imo just a 15-20% nerf on chance to block/evade for casting templates

CovenantX 2021-06-15 17:44 #33

@LearnMe ; that fight @Higgs was talking about involved a bunch of returning players, half of them didn't even know how Evasion is even used. This would be like saying "OH look a dexer actually got a kill on me, *screenshot 120.0 parry, wrestling & 80 dex*, but not mentioning you were afk while it went down.

sibble said:

LearnMe said:

Kinda odd, Higgs is here constantly crying about mages being OP,

not mages, just parry mages

I see no problem adding stun to the game as long as they reduce block/evade chance for caster templates

just asking for a little balance here its really not asking for a lot imo just a 15-20% nerf on chance to block/evade for casting templates

I'd be fine with this as well as long as it's not just wrestling, include Swords, Macing & Fencing and the stun has no longer than 2s duration. I'd be fine with them being tied to the masteries. it'll be a trade off, with uninterruptible confidence that ~80-90% of the meta has right now.

LearnMe 2021-06-15 22:42 #34

CovenantX said:

@ LearnMe that fight @ Higgs was talking about involved a bunch of returning players, half of them didn't even know how Evasion is even used. This would be like saying "OH look a dexer actually got a kill on me, *screenshot 120.0 parry, wrestling & 80 dex*, but not mentioning you were afk while it went down.

sibble said:

LearnMe said:

Kinda odd, Higgs is here constantly crying about mages being OP,

not mages, just parry mages

I see no problem adding stun to the game as long as they reduce block/evade chance for caster templates

just asking for a little balance here its really not asking for a lot imo just a 15-20% nerf on chance to block/evade for casting templates

I'd be fine with this as well as long as it's not just wrestling, include Swords, Macing & Fencing and the stun has no longer than 2s duration. I'd be fine with them being tied to the masteries. it'll be a trade off, with uninterruptible confidence that ~80-90% of the meta has right now.

But your argument is that evasion isn't the issue, correct? What does their understanding of evasion have to do with anything? I suppose the new argument that can be made is that this is the level of player that is giving input on how pvp should or shouldn't be. Either 1 tilers aren't as subpar and underclassed compared to mages as your group typically suggests, or he's losing his mind bragging about fighting people that "didn't even know how evasion is even used." This is exactly why when people ask if some of these posters even pvp or talk about Atlantic pvp being the showcase.

Now explain why wrestling, which inherently has stun as one of its TWO abilities, shouldn't be the only skill with the stun? Swords, macing and fencing have how many specials? The masteries aren't amazing, but can be useful. Swords can already do almost 50 damage stuns?

CovenantX 2021-06-16 00:12 #35

LearnMe said:

CovenantX said:

@ LearnMe   that fight @ Higgs was talking about involved a bunch of returning players, half of them didn't even know how Evasion is even used. This would be like saying "OH look a dexer actually got a kill on me, *screenshot 120.0 parry, wrestling & 80 dex*, but not mentioning you were afk while it went down.

sibble said:

LearnMe said:

Kinda odd, Higgs is here constantly crying about mages being OP,

not mages, just parry mages

I see no problem adding stun to the game as long as they reduce block/evade chance for caster templates

just asking for a little balance here its really not asking for a lot imo just a 15-20% nerf on chance to block/evade for casting templates

I'd be fine with this as well as long as it's not just wrestling, include Swords, Macing & Fencing and the stun has no longer than 2s duration.   I'd be fine with them being tied to the masteries. it'll be a trade off, with uninterruptible confidence that ~80-90% of the meta has right now.

But your argument is that evasion isn't the issue, correct? What does their understanding of evasion have to do with anything? I suppose the new argument that can be made is that this is the level of player that is giving input on how pvp should or shouldn't be. Either 1 tilers aren't as subpar and underclassed compared to mages as your group typically suggests, or he's losing his mind bragging about fighting people that "didn't even know how evasion is even used." This is exactly why when people ask if some of these posters even pvp or talk about Atlantic pvp being the showcase.

Now explain why wrestling, which inherently has stun as one of its TWO abilities, shouldn't be the only skill with the stun? Swords, macing and fencing have how many specials? The masteries aren't amazing, but can be useful. Swords can already do almost 50 damage stuns?

Evasion isn't the sole issue, but it's partially correct, the thing is, it's an issue because the strongest offense templates (mages) have access to the strongest defense (parry/evade). your evade chance would be reduced if your parry chance is reduced.

Personally, I'd not let evasion be used at all if magery OR Chivalry >50.0,

Nerve strike is enough offense to justify the skill in bushido just by itself, then you get uninterruptible confidence if you use the mastery... which 80-90% of evade-mages do.

Parry still allows you to block 30-40% (depending on 1h or 2h weapon use) of incoming weapon-based attacks... but you and I both know dexers are not the primary reason people have parry, even less a reason for it since archery had their nerfs to AI & moving shot a few years ago.

- in terms of the fight you were referencing.

I was using the 'returning players' understanding of evasion as a means to convey they're not up-to-date with current pvp. They asked @higgs what his template was as the fight came to an end.

Wrestling has a few advantages on its own to justify allowing all (non-ranged) weapon skills to gain a 2s stun, as opposed to only wrestling.

Wrestling Advantages

1) the only 'weapon skill' to benefit from Parry without giving up potions.

2) No tactics required for either of their specials.

3) can disarm others while being immune to disarm.

Wrestling Disadvantages

1) does little to no damage.

I would advocate for a "stun" replacement to all "Paralyzing Blow" specials but only If the Mastery of the special being used is active.

or example

Paralyzing Blow with wrestling would become a 'stun' Only if Wrestling mastery is used.

a Bardiche would do 'stun' instead of paralyze IF Swords mastery is used.

It would be a trade-off for most templates to make now, because the 'meta' is almost all uninterruptible confidence (bushido mastery). would it be worth it for a 2s stun, instead of the current meta? for some... probably not for all, which is ideally where you'd want it to be.

if it were a 4s stun for wrestling only as the OP suggests, that would become the meta and non-wrestlers, wouldn't be part of it at all.

The_Higgs_1 2021-06-16 00:47 #36

Yea, I was fighting like 8-10 people solo on my evade macer and they were not pvpers, just returning players doing a despise. I didnt loot them and let them finish spawn.

Point I was making was that evasion is that ridiculous, imagine if I was a mage evader, wouldve been even easier. Mages have been and will always be best template in UO, problem is everything is unbalanced to it. Re- balancing of pvp needs to be done to fix it. Either bring mages down some or bring 1-tilers up some. Without having to make many nerfs to pvp, easiest way is to take evasion away from mages and reduce parry chance a little bit. Otherwise youd have to up too many other things on the other side.

LearnMe 2021-06-16 01:50 #37

CovenantX said:

   Evasion isn't the sole issue, but it's partially correct, the thing is, it's an issue because the strongest offense templates (mages) have access to the strongest defense (parry/evade).   your evade chance would be reduced if your parry chance is reduced.

Personally, I'd not let evasion be used at all if magery OR Chivalry >50.0,
Nerve strike is enough offense to justify the skill in bushido just by itself, then you get uninterruptible confidence if you use the mastery... which 80-90% of evade-mages do.

Parry still allows you to block 30-40% (depending on 1h or 2h weapon use) of incoming weapon-based attacks... but you and I both know dexers are not the primary reason people have parry, even less a reason for it since archery had their nerfs to AI & moving shot a few years ago.

- in terms of the fight you were referencing.

I was using the 'returning players' understanding of evasion as a means to convey they're not up-to-date with current pvp. They asked @ higgs what his template was as the fight came to an end.

Wrestling has a few advantages on its own to justify allowing all (non-ranged) weapon skills to gain a 2s stun, as opposed to only wrestling.

Wrestling Advantages
1) the only 'weapon skill' to benefit from Parry without giving up potions.
2) No tactics required for either of their specials.
3) can disarm others while being immune to disarm.

Wrestling Disadvantages
1) does little to no damage.

I would advocate for a "stun" replacement to all "Paralyzing Blow" specials but only If the Mastery of the special being used is active.
or example

Paralyzing Blow with wrestling would become a 'stun' Only if Wrestling mastery is used.

a Bardiche would do 'stun' instead of paralyze IF Swords mastery is used.

It would be a trade-off for most templates to make now, because the 'meta' is almost all uninterruptible confidence (bushido mastery).    would it be worth it for a 2s stun, instead of the current meta? for some... probably not for all, which is ideally where you'd want it to be.

if it were a 4s stun for wrestling only as the OP suggests, that would become the meta and non-wrestlers, wouldn't be part of it at all.

Dexxers aren't the primary reason for having parry? It's the exact reason I have parry. I'd be an idiot to not run parry and subject myself infinite mana dexxers. If some monkey is plague glenda bashing, it's going to do over 160 damage with a para in two swings. That's not including plague or the ticks OR the bombard on trigger. If someone curse yumi's me, I'm suddenly subject to 70 damage swings at an easily attainable swing cap. If someone max's out their damage with a gnarled staff, I'm subject to 80 damage in a single swing, plus a possibility of splinter. My archer can currently do upward of 35 damage a moving shot and fire off a dozen before I run out of mana. That's without being set up to use an assassin honed composite.

What are my options of countering without parry? I can stun them, they can instantly box out of it as many times as I hit it all for the massive consequence of the 4 damage box. Now I can't stun them for 10 seconds. Dexxers in a group with half a brain can already instantly kill someone. A dexxer that does more than run around swinging one weapon spamming one special against a mage without parry it's not even fair.

Anyway, the stun should be a wrestling ability. It requires you to have more than just wrestling, requires you to have your hands free. There already you've invested more skill points, you can't get uninterruptable confidence even if you get bushido because it would be a wrestle mastery, and you're vulnerable because your hands are free. There is zero reason for someone to be able to have a one or two handed weapon that lets them chug or has reactive paralyze on it for even more added defense. It would be a strong move done right and should have a trade off. The other weapon classes have plenty of variability, they don't need the stun as well. Otherwise now it becomes splinter, disarm, stun, moving shots.

It just boggles my mind you two complain about parry and evasion relentlessly, then advocate people with parry and evasion to be able to use an unbreakable stun so that bare fists don't get a buff. It's so backward to me. If it's a wrestle mastery, that's triggered by people with empty hands, what are they not doing...? Parrying or evading.

The_Higgs_1 2021-06-16 02:43 #38

1: with wrestling you still have defense and its literally only usable on a mage.
2: youll only be without shield for 1-2 secs tops just to get the unbreakable stun to go off, much like a bola where you can rearm immediately. It will be scripted just like wall of stone or tele dismounts. So yeah its nonsense.

CovenantX 2021-06-16 02:44 #39

So a few things. @LearnMe ; (damn I hate how there's no "condense" when quoting large posts on this forum.)

1) Glenda-Bash needs to be fixed, it's obviously a bug.

2) you can box out of glenda-bash, it's not a stun, it's a paralyze... also, if the bone-breaker procs you're immune to the Damage the glenda does for 1 minute.

3) the yumi is very highly susceptible to RNG because to deal damage like you say, it requires both hits to land & multiple hit-spell procs.

4) "Splinter + Disarm + Stun + Moving shots" group setting, how would it be any different with Lynks proposal ? except stun lasting for 4s.

-a mage could easily get splintering by using a mage-weapon. no skill required, just a small +15-20 magery as part of the suit.. so I guess it could be done by a solo player, but it's unecessary if you go with 4s stun because stun/wall/wall would be 10x more effective.

LearnMe 2021-06-16 10:13 #40

The_Higgs_1 said:

1: with wrestling you still have defense and its literally only usable on a mage.
2: youll only be without shield for 1-2 secs tops just to get the unbreakable stun to go off, much like a bola where you can rearm immediately. It will be scripted just like wall of stone or tele dismounts. So yeah its nonsense.

Yes and a wrestler with no shield to parry with is easy pickins running into any group. You aren't going to disarm your shield, instantly stun someone, rearm shield. For one, that would put you on item timer twice or you would be prevented from doing it as you're likely going to have to apple/pot/box. Just like any other hit, it could take more than one swing.

LearnMe 2021-06-16 10:19 #41

CovenantX said:

So a few things. @ LearnMe (damn I hate how there's no "condense" when quoting large posts on this forum.)

1) Glenda-Bash needs to be fixed, it's obviously a bug.

2) you can box out of glenda-bash, it's not a stun, it's a paralyze... also, if the bone-breaker procs you're immune to the Damage the glenda does for 1 minute.

3) the yumi is very highly susceptible to RNG because to deal damage like you say, it requires both hits to land & multiple hit-spell procs.

4) "Splinter + Disarm + Stun + Moving shots" group setting, how would it be any different with Lynks proposal ? except stun lasting for 4s.

-a mage could easily get splintering by using a mage-weapon.   no skill required, just a small +15-20 magery as part of the suit.. so I guess it could be done by a solo player, but it's unecessary if you go with 4s stun because stun/wall/wall would be 10x more effective.

You don't know how splinter doesn't proc with fists..? That's how suggesting it should work with weapons is dumb.

Fully aware of how all of these things work. Point is, any mage fighting any of these without parry is going to get hit more often than not. HLD stacking, splinter chances on both double strikes with as many dexxers run pickaxes, you don't exactly have to land many swings doing 70-85 damage a pop. If you want to test the theory, you guys are welcome to take a night off bragging about killing people who don't know what evasion is and try to kill any dexxer with half a brain while you don't have parry. Good luck to ya

CovenantX 2021-06-16 20:11 #42

LearnMe said:

The_Higgs_1 said:

1: with wrestling you still have defense and its literally only usable on a mage.
2: youll only be without shield for 1-2 secs tops just to get the unbreakable stun to go off, much like a bola where you can rearm immediately. It will be scripted just like wall of stone or tele dismounts. So yeah its nonsense.

Yes and a wrestler with no shield to parry with is easy pickins running into any group. You aren't going to disarm your shield, instantly stun someone, rearm shield. For one, that would put you on item timer twice or you would be prevented from doing it as you're likely going to have to apple/pot/box. Just like any other hit, it could take more than one swing.

Wrestling has the ability to disarm.... use it, you'll very rarely die to any dexer. in groups well that's a different story. you never noticed how Parry lets you survive GROUPS of dexers, and you don't think it's broken one vs one?

I'm not sure how long you can continue ignoring the elephant in the room.

a mage without parry is no easier than an archer as far as their defense goes... except the mage is guaranteed to land their damage while the archer always has 50% chance to hit increasing to about 56% while under the effects of HLD against someone without parry. refine for DCI if dexers are so OP.. oooh but mages, right.....

Oh wait, you refine for Fire resist already by doing so you reduce your DCI so dexers can hit you more and mages do less damage. every archer refines their fire resist up and they can't even have Parry... Gee I wonder what that's all about? I mean, it's not rocket science.

LearnMe said:
You don't know how splinter doesn't proc with fists..? That's how suggesting it should work with weapons is dumb.

Fully aware of how all of these things work. Point is, any mage fighting any of these without parry is going to get hit more often than not. HLD stacking, splinter chances on both double strikes with as many dexxers run pickaxes, you don't exactly have to land many swings doing 70-85 damage a pop. If you want to test the theory, you guys are welcome to take a night off bragging about killing people who don't know what evasion is and try to kill any dexxer with half a brain while you don't have parry. Good luck to ya

Mages with wrestling or no weapon skill can pickup splintering anytime they want by using a mage weapon, like I said, all it takes is +15-20 magery on your suit and you've got it made.

-Did you see when I mentioned Splintering weapon shouldn't proc on spell-channeling weapons and/or if the user has >50.0 Magery in past discussions?

if your stun is on cooldown or your victim is on 'stun' immunity timer, there's no reason NOT to splinter... assuming your victim survive the stun to begin with. that should be impossible when you're in a group....

I wasn't bragging about killing pvmers, I wasn't even at that fight, I broke my suit up on GL months ago I'll replace it eventually.. there hasn't been pvp there for like 5 years. I was in chat while it went down, that's how I know what happened. Hey, we're not the ones using the argument (in discussion with the potential to influence how the game is played) that Mages need Parry because some "evade dexer template from 12 years ago" can rip through a bunch of PvMers... That's you pal,

any mage template from 12 years ago would have done the same... but likely faster as was mentioned....

LearnMe 2021-06-17 02:47 #43

You're right, it isn't rocket science. In an era of double stacking HLD, proc'ing it with double strikes or focus attack I'm almost always going to be under the effect of HLD. So suddenly, that 5% dci I lost by refining one resist isn't even a 5% reduction. Consider that in combination with every dexxer being able to have 100% elemental damage weapons....oh gosh, if I actually competitively pvp I suddenly realize that it's not all to avoid a flamestrike.

Damn, you can disarm a dexxer with wrestle and they can't kill you? Guess what else you aren't going to do with a wrestle mage? Kill any dexxer. Derp. Guess it's not that OP if it's based on killing potential.

I don't know why you always return to this "mages always get their damage off." You mean most of their 8-13 damage spells don't get interrupted, but any damage of value takes multiple seconds to cast that a dexxer can just run away from? Even in this fight that apparently gets bragged about in your comms about fighting noobs, if he's really 1v10'ing, how many spells is a mage getting off to kill someone? lol I mean c'mon. My point wasn't even that it was a demonstration of his template. I thought it was fairly obvious it was a comment on the level of player that's giving input on anything pvp related. The hypocrisy of one minute saying dexxers are worthless and parry needs nerfed, then another minute bragging about how he's killing noobs on....wait for it...a 1 tile dexxer.

You talk all this theory, while admittedly not pvping and potentially not playing at all, but refuse to put any of it into practice. Like I said, feel free to play any sort of non parry mage against a dexxer with half a brain. They can just dart in and out mindlessly until rng swings their way.

LearnMe 2021-06-17 02:50 #44

Anyway, the point is there should be an unbreakable stun, around the 2s mark for wrestling. It's dumb to suggest that I should be able to hit a 30+ damage unbreakable stun with a viking sword. You want an option to thin out the use of bokutos and the like, you don't give the same weapon class an unbreakable stun that let's them to continue to have full defensive capabilities with a damaging stun. Pretty simple.

CovenantX 2021-06-17 04:37 #45

LearnMe said:

Anyway, the point is there should be an unbreakable stun, around the 2s mark for wrestling. It's dumb to suggest that I should be able to hit a 30+ damage unbreakable stun with a viking sword. You want an option to thin out the use of bokutos and the like, you don't give the same weapon class an unbreakable stun that let's them to continue to have full defensive capabilities with a damaging stun. Pretty simple.

Swords already has a stun that's mostly unbreakable & consistently hits for ~30 damage. it's called nerve strike, perhaps you've heard of it? it's only being used by 95% of the templates in pvp today.... and um, that's on a weapon with the fastest base weapon speed of 2s.

So... what would be "OP" about wrestling & all melee weapon skills receiving a 2s stun without the extra direct damage that is already possible with nerve?

or is it you think wrestling 2s stun would be useless if weapons could get the same thing, because weapons' deal damage?

The mastery would be required to gain the benefit of 'stun' with weapons & wrestling, if you don't run the weapon skill or wrestling mastery, you have para-blow instead.

The whole reason for this suggestion is to make trap boxes (mostly scripts) less effective, is it not? or is it really as obvious as it looks.. your group of 5+ wants a 4s stun because it'll make it easier to sync-dump people?

CovenantX 2021-06-17 04:56 #46

LearnMe said:

Damn, you can disarm a dexxer with wrestle and they can't kill you? Guess what else you aren't going to do with a wrestle mage? Kill any dexxer. Derp. Guess it's not that OP if it's based on killing potential.

1 - Hrmm, why can't you kill a dexer with a mage?

2 - What's the difference between when you do it and when your opponent does it?

Cazador 2021-06-17 14:03 #47

Lynk said:

Please consider adding the Pre-AOS unbreakable stun to wrestling mastery, and tie the duration to real skill in wrestle/anat and mastery level, scaling from 1 second to four seconds. Leave the requirement of empty hands in place.

It will require a huge skill point/equipment sacrifice to use it, and leave you quite vulnerable in the process.

As it is, the wrestling mastery is useless. I'm sure if you did a quick peek at number of players who actually use it, you'll see that no one does.

This makes sense. The problem that’s always plagued the PvP community is that if things seemed overpowered or they specifically died to it and wanted to rage post. Rather than balancing it or compromising they just wanted it nerfed. I feel like the devs buy into laziness and just nerf things rather than think constructively. Keeping the pre-aos stun could be beneficial for team builds to add as part of the sync. 4 seconds is too long for a perma stun. I’d say 4 seconds is ok with 2s of perma stun(can’t consume items) and 2s of walk animations(can consume items).

Cookie 2021-06-17 22:10 #48

LearnMe said:

You talk all this theory, while admittedly not pvping and potentially not playing at all, but refuse to put any of it into practice. Like I said, feel free to play any sort of non parry mage against a dexxer with half a brain. They can just dart in and out mindlessly until rng swings their way.

Haha. It's really frustrating isn't it 😂

I've agreed with everything you have said, and good effort haha, you kept your patience way better than I can. I've really given up on these debates, it's going nowhere, I cannot argue with a block of wood without wanting to burn it 🙂

CovenantX 2021-06-18 00:06 #49

Cookie said:
Haha. It's really frustrating isn't it 😂
I cannot argue with a block of wood without wanting to burn it 🙂

Trust me, you have no idea.

The_Higgs_1 2021-06-18 00:45 #50

And how many dexxers are you fighting everyday with your 10+ team @LearnMe??? Im guessing less then 5% of the fights. Yet somehow you think your argument is right about elemental weapons and endless mana?!?! If you cant manage to snyc dump someone in this current meta with the numbers you run, maybe try checkers. Our group does it without evade with 3-4 people.

Super offense plus uber defense on mages ++ The recently used 3rd party programs(3-4 years) is why you are ignorant to actual pvp issues. If you think what you been doing mindlessly on Atl for the past 4 years is pvp your completely lost on any pvp conversation.

McDougle 2021-06-18 01:16 #51

the action here better than smack
talk chat in game

Lynk 2021-06-18 01:22 #52

Cov you lost credibility when you said nerve is an unbreakable stun. It is breakable. Just stop you look silly.

CovenantX 2021-06-18 01:35 #53

Lynk said:

Cov you lost credibility when you said nerve is an unbreakable stun. It is breakable. Just stop you look silly.

Test it, you'll see it's Mostly unbreakable. you never noticed why most people don't box out of it?

please do show the results. then we'll see who lacks credibility.

Mariah 2021-06-18 09:09 #54

This thread is getting too personal. Please return to impersonal, technical discussion.

Lynk 2021-06-18 13:51 #55

CovenantX said:

Lynk said:

Cov you lost credibility when you said nerve is an unbreakable stun. It is breakable. Just stop you look silly.

Test it, you'll see it's Mostly unbreakable. you never noticed why most people don't box out of it?

please do show the results. then we'll see who lacks credibility.

I PvP every single day against people who nerve strike. You can easily box out of nerve strike. The fact that you don't know this is really concerning considering how much you comment in PvP threads.

CovenantX 2021-06-18 19:17 #56

Lynk said:

I PvP every single day against people who nerve strike. You can easily box out of nerve strike. The fact that you don't know this is really concerning considering how much you comment in PvP threads.

Well, you clearly don't know much about the most commonly used special in pvp.

I thought this was common knowledge. something every pvper knew, why the hell do you think everyone uses it?

your guildy @LearnMe seems to think a 'viking sword' would be OP if it could do a 30 dmg stun for 2s instead of it's current 'paralyze' for 2s... at first I thought he just made a bad comparison, but it's more clear he didn't know nerve was mostly unbreakable either.

it's ok... people that deal with these things on a daily basis for 3+ years sometimes don't know..

Nerve is not Always 'unbreakable', but the vast majority of the time it is completely unbreakable, forcing you to stay stunned for 2s, it's almost never worth taking the extra damage from boxing it.. as it breaks about ~20% of the time.

Cookie 2021-06-18 20:04 #57

CovenantX said:

Lynk said:

I PvP every single day against people who nerve strike. You can easily box out of nerve strike. The fact that you don't know this is really concerning considering how much you comment in PvP threads.

Well, you clearly don't know much about the most commonly used special in pvp.
I thought this was common knowledge. something every pvper knew, why the hell do you think everyone uses it?

your guildy @ LearnMe seems to think a 'viking sword' would be OP if it could do a 30 dmg stun for 2s instead of it's current 'paralyze' for 2s... at first I thought he just made a bad comparison, but it's more clear he didn't know nerve was mostly unbreakable either.

it's ok... people that deal with these things on a daily basis for 3+ years sometimes don't know..

Nerve is not Always 'unbreakable', but the vast majority of the time it is completely unbreakable, forcing you to stay stunned for 2s, it's almost never worth taking the extra damage from boxing it.. as it breaks about ~20% of the time.

I'm not sure that argument really works.

Mostly unbreakable? It either is or it isn't. In my experience, I trap box out of it every time.

When you say mostly, what percentage are you quoting {Edit - I note you are saying 80% unbreakable now}? The Yukio Earrings should drop 1 in 8, but some people don't have a drop in 60 attempts.

This is UO, this is a game where the RNG never ever works like it should. You quoting theory isn't going to cut it, against our experiences of just trap boxing out of it always. How can you compare mostly unbreakable, with fully unbreakable?

Is this like your Dexxers "always" miss, when they actually hit almost every single time?

Is it that you just have a massive perception problem? Or are just massively biased?

CovenantX 2021-06-18 20:23 #58

Cookie said:
I'm not sure that argument really works.
Mostly unbreakable? It either is or it isn't. In my experience, I trap box out of it every time.
When you say mostly, what percentage are you quoting {Edit - I note you are saying 80% unbreakable now}? The Yukio Earrings should drop 1 in 8, but some people don't have a drop in 60 attempts.

I suggest you pay more attention when you try to box out of nerve.

I'm estimating it to be at 80%, because it rarely lets you out of the stun. I could have bad RNG - which is typical... but nerve is in fact not 100% breakable by any stretch, like you guys seem to be claiming.

I've had it break 2x in a row, and I've had it not break stun over 12x in a row.

I never said it was always unbreakable... but it's close enough to where it doesn't matter because Nerve does ~30 damage in addition to Stun.. and some of you think that would be OP coming from other 'slower' weapons, for some reason.

Cookie 2021-06-18 20:30 #59

Honestly, I don't even care about any of this argument.

Nerve strike doesn't even bother me.

Dexxers bother me wiping everything out without parry, Dismount bothers me, I'd happily take another form of meta to stop players than dismount if it left them mounted, for example wrestle stun.

hunter11 2021-06-18 20:46 #60

George said:

Covenant doesn't seem to understand that the problem with the game right now is a lack of diversity, which is disturbing for someone who has "eliminate chance in pvp" as their signature. What is being played right now? Splinter/Evade/Mage, Splinter/Evade/Dexer, Balakai/Evade/Mage, Parry/Mage, Splinter/Parry/Chiv/Glenda.

This stun really is no worse than splinter, a free bleed + force walk (tHaT cOsTs DuRaBiLiTy) and it busts the runaway forever evasion meta while also keeping the stunner squishy and vulnerable with only wrestling + dci to rely on and no evasion for dumps. And to anyone who thinks otherwise, I invite them to step away from their zerg, make a wrestle dci mage without parry, and give it a go for a day.

Reduce the stun to two seconds, re-introduce it through the ingame macro, and make the cost a flat 20-25% of the user's max stamina.

We have more ways to survive with gross suits, templates, and consumables than UOR players. Yet they manage just fine.

Yes I love how they nerf great items with many mods to really limit what people play... lets really kill pvp... biggest mistake ever lets cap item mod's...

hunter11 2021-06-18 20:55 #61

Cookie said:

I can see @ lynk and @ george points.
Wrestling mastery is underpowered. The game could maybe use a proper stun for mages - afterall, they cannot dismount easily. It would counter dismount nicely. Make players move away from this.
It would also promote cross healing and teamwork.
There is a lack of diversity in the game, imo, everything is a Dexxer these days - ie, due to the extraordinary amount of Dex they have. Be it a Dexxer with Magery, or a Mage with Dexterity - all the same thing, it's all merged together. Even Parry Mages with 80+ Dex are Dexxers - imo - strange opinion I know, but you cannot persuade me otherwise. For a Pure Mage, that Dexterity is required in Mana, to actually cast a decent amount of spells.
I'm not going to get into another argument with @ covenantx , I get his point that dexxers hitting players with parry is frustrating - but the truth is a. everyone is a dexxer {even the mages with their Dex/Boks etc} and b. everyone has parry because they have to, and c. it only takes 1 overpowered special from a dexxer to change a fight, so it doesn't matter if they miss 10 times, and get 1 dismount/nerve strike/splinter/deathstrike/lethal poison, the fight is almost over.
What would be good, would be to promote a character style, that does not need such high Dexterity - like the old fashioned mages. Making Wrestle Mastery more useful could help, and could maybe reduce Dexxers(everyone)/Parry.

I'd be okay with a 2 second stun and thats big if you hit that followed by a splinter because said mage is going to stun then disarm the person and I main a squishy archer parry and evasion are fine no problem the problem is how a person with wrestling can disarm non stop to where there is no point in a dexxer to fight them no timer like with a weapon probably because wrestling isnt that great but its too overpowered considering they can just get in your face and constantly remove your weapon... but 4 seconds lol we know how group fights would go and im sure unless a lot more tele rings pop up that would be a harmful addition to pvp

Lynk 2021-06-19 01:35 #62

Nerve is always breakable.

LearnMe 2021-06-19 01:54 #63

CovenantX said:

LearnMe said:

Anyway, the point is there should be an unbreakable stun, around the 2s mark for wrestling. It's dumb to suggest that I should be able to hit a 30+ damage unbreakable stun with a viking sword. You want an option to thin out the use of bokutos and the like, you don't give the same weapon class an unbreakable stun that let's them to continue to have full defensive capabilities with a damaging stun. Pretty simple.

   Swords already has a stun that's mostly unbreakable & consistently hits for ~30 damage. it's called nerve strike, perhaps you've heard of it?   it's only being used by 95% of the templates in pvp today.... and um, that's on a weapon with the fastest base weapon speed of 2s.

So... what would be "OP" about wrestling & all melee weapon skills receiving a 2s stun without the extra direct damage that is already possible with nerve?

or is it you think wrestling 2s stun would be useless if weapons could get the same thing, because weapons' deal damage?

The mastery would be required to gain the benefit of 'stun' with weapons & wrestling, if you don't run the weapon skill or wrestling mastery, you have para-blow instead.

The whole reason for this suggestion is to make trap boxes (mostly scripts) less effective, is it not?    or is it really as obvious as it looks.. your group of 5+ wants a 4s stun because it'll make it easier to sync-dump people?

I've answered this several times. Pay close attention and I'll answer it once more.

What can't you do if it requires wrestling and bare hands? Parry or evade.

What can you do if you give the special to all weapon classes? Parry and evade.

What is it that you and Higgs cry about nonstop? Parry and evade. Do you want smaller words? Having it specific to wrestling means you give up parry and evasion while you try to land it.

Are you really struggling to grasp this? Nerve strike is not "mostly unbreakable." If it can be broken, it's breakable. In fact, it's been brought up that you can time boxing out of a nerve strike and cast a spell on the run.

And the fact you said it's almost always not worth boxing out of a nerve is laughable. You're adamant that nerve strike is "mostly unbreakable" and then turn right around and say you choose not to break it? Why wouldn't you take a 4 damage box tick to avoid being nerve'd again for 40+ damage?

LearnMe 2021-06-19 02:01 #64

The_Higgs_1 said:

And how many dexxers are you fighting everyday with your 10+ team @ LearnMe??? Im guessing less then 5% of the fights. Yet somehow you think your argument is right about elemental weapons and endless mana?!?! If you cant manage to snyc dump someone in this current meta with the numbers you run, maybe try checkers. Our group does it without evade with 3-4 people.

Super offense plus uber defense on mages ++ The recently used 3rd party programs(3-4 years) is why you are ignorant to actual pvp issues. If you think what you been doing mindlessly on Atl for the past 4 years is pvp your completely lost on any pvp conversation.

The only shard we sometimes find you hiding on, we don't have more than 6 players with a character on.

The bulk of what we fight revolve around dexxers. The bulk of our offense revolves around good dexxers. The only good group of players we face on any shard runs half dexxers/half mages and it revolves completely around disarms, splinters, glenda bashes and archers. I know it's not typical of the fights you brag about where you fight people coming back to the game after a decade, so you haven't seen much of it.

LearnMe 2021-06-19 02:05 #65

Cookie said:

LearnMe said:

You talk all this theory, while admittedly not pvping and potentially not playing at all, but refuse to put any of it into practice. Like I said, feel free to play any sort of non parry mage against a dexxer with half a brain. They can just dart in and out mindlessly until rng swings their way.

Haha. It's really frustrating isn't it 😂
I've agreed with everything you have said, and good effort haha, you kept your patience way better than I can. I've really given up on these debates, it's going nowhere, I cannot argue with a block of wood without wanting to burn it 🙂

It's cheap and easy entertainment for me. I knew the bias was there, but I didn't realize they didn't even understand simple mechanics that have been in the game for over a decade. Kinda takes the fun out of it

CovenantX 2021-06-19 05:51 #66

LearnMe said:

It's cheap and easy entertainment for me. I knew the bias was there, but I didn't realize they didn't even understand simple mechanics that have been in the game for over a decade. Kinda takes the fun out of it

That's exactly how I feel.

The nerve thing may be a bug, only because it says "you can move" twice, and you can't move until the 2nd time that message goes off, which is after the next swing anyway,

but it in fact is not always breakable. and I never said nerve-strike was always unbreakable,.

I said it was "mostly unbreakable". you'd have to test it instead of flat out denying it, otherwise you can keep lying to yourself... I guess if it makes you feel good do it, right?

The only reason I even brought that up was because of your ridiculous 2s Stun+30 damage "Viking sword" comment... in opposition to allowing a 'stun' for all melee weapon skills.

when we essentially have that already, but with a much faster weapon that doesn't even need damage increase OR high tactics to reach 30 damage. but hey, them bokuto users have evade & bushido mastery confidence on top of it. that's not broken at all though, huh?

Also, when I suggest a 'stun' of 2s for all weapons - requiring the mastery of the weapon type used to be active', That is in addition to a nerf to parry..

templates with evade could get that stun, sure, but they already have Nervestrike....

what the hell would they even bother adding more tactics & DI so the viking sword (or any 'para-blow' weapon') to hit as hard as something they've already got, sticking with nerve strike would still allow them to keep their bushido mastery confidence.

very few would make that switch unless parry is nerfed too hard. and I'm not aiming for parry to be useless. Though I have said useless parry is the better option when the only other option is leaving it the way it is, and I'll stick with it. cause parry is f---ing broken AF..

Rorschach 2021-06-19 08:30 #67

Thank you for your feedback.

Pre-AoS Stun

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