Evasion combined with casting schools needs fixed!!

Pvp will never get better until this is fixed.  Dont allow evade period when combined with magery, mysticism or chiv above 50 skill.  Evasion should be for one tile pvpers only in order to give it balance!!

I have a sort of sympathy with you, I get your point, but overall, I just don't find this OP in any way.

It's a defensive skill, defensive skills are in the main completely obliterated by offensive skills. I play against many Evade mages, and think nothing of them, same with Bok mages tbh.

Having said that, I do agree to a point, that some things just don't go together that well, shouldn't really have been put together because the efficiencies they give are too much.

But if you go down the Evade Mage route, there are plenty of equal routes to go down.

Dismount on any weapon at all - it should only be bola, not a warrior skill - why - because mages don't have a complimentary skill, or counter.

Deathstrike on a mounted character - again, originally, only really meant for a ninja on foot, it was designed to be quite OP to make up for the fact the character was on foot. For this reason - I'm ok with Bolas, but not much else (Dismount being another OP skill but the character is on foot).

The classic in PvM - Necro with Chiv/Necro with Bushido - the Sampire - this is the ultimate nono, which proves the point beyond any doubt that some things just were not meant to be together. The Healing skill, should never have been over-shadowed by these skills.

So on one hand, I get your point, on the other, It doesn't make much difference to the group pvp I fight in - if they hit Evade, we just wait, then kill them when it's gone/ or use dexxers and dismount them and gank them anyway. It's a bit like Spellweavers shield/gift of renewal spells.

And No, I don't play Evade mages - I did try it once, and found it boring, I accept it is for boring mages. 🙂

{Although I cannot talk right now, I've retired my mage spellweaver to play a parry anat/healer mage - the sheer volume and damage output of warriors/(and banes until recently)/dismounts is just too much, having to go full defensive in the current climate}.

But I cannot see the Devs doing anything about it - they really have pursued a policy of being able to combine everything - for better or worse. And it doesn't bother me.

Magery by far is the most powerful thing in UO, it doesnt need any compliments such as parry or evade.  Only skill in game with 64 options and theres plenty to choose from when dismounted.  Teleport, invis, wall yourself off from opponent, invis, protection, mini heal greater heal.  Only thing about dismount that is OP is No dachi, another weapon used more on mages then on dexxers.  WHy do you ask, cause magery and defense is most OP thing in UO.  Without keeping dexxer things seperate from casting schools the game becomes unbalanced.  One tile dexxers have literally been wiped from UO.  There has to be a change to balance it and removing evasion from casting schools and from archers/ throwers who run a melee skill is the first step back to balance.  There is more that needs fixed but this is first priority.

The_Higgs_1 said:

Magery by far is the most powerful thing in UO, it doesnt need any compliments such as parry or evade.  Only skill in game with 64 options and theres plenty to choose from when dismounted.  Teleport, invis, wall yourself off from opponent, invis, protection, mini heal greater heal.  Only thing about dismount that is OP is No dachi, another weapon used more on mages then on dexxers.  WHy do you ask, cause magery and defense is most OP thing in UO.  Without keeping dexxer things seperate from casting schools the game becomes unbalanced.  One tile dexxers have literally been wiped from UO.  There has to be a change to balance it and removing evasion from casting schools and from archers/ throwers who run a melee skill is the first step back to balance.  There is more that needs fixed but this is first priority.

Magery is the most versatile thing in UO, not the most powerful. It is not great 1v1, but it scales up in teams. Yes it is superb, and so it should be, everything else is brainless in comparison.

If warriors need parry or evade - then so do mages, they are all on the receiving end of the same damage output and types. All the warriors I know, rip apart anyone without Parry. If you don't have Parry, you may as well not pvp in my experience, you will last all of 5 seconds then weaken your team. Evade - not so much an issue. I usually see the guys using it as cowardly, they are usually just running away, only bothered with their own survival rather than pvp, I let them run away, they will come back if they want pvp or to win the objective I'm completing.

I see plenty of 1 tile dexxers. Healing itself is still a very good skill in pvp. Deathstrike, Splinter, Dismount, Poison, AI, they have plenty of powerful options. But as I say, victim of their own success, it got to a point, everyone was using only Dexxers v us, so we all had to get Parry, yes, we've adapted and made it harder for them, we've reduced our SDI, we've reduced our Mana and Casting ability, to just survive them.

And whilst I disagree with you re Mages/Warriors, I still have a certain agreement that some things should be kept apart. I would actually have no issue at all, with Evade being taken off Mages - none of my entire team even use this set-up (and we had 30 out last night 🙂  ). It's only a few really boring non factors who do. Like I say - they hit Evade. they run off, I let them, I'm not chasing them all day, they will come back if they want PvP, or to beat me.

Marcus said:

I think the fact that you run in a group of 30 players to PvP in 2021 showcases how bad you are at this game.

The fact that none of your 30 use evasion also showcases how bad your group is at the game.

Your opinions on PvP should not be considered.

Or it showcases we are a worldwide team who have been together, and been at the top, and the bottom for over 15 years of solid pvp, many of us are ex-factioners from the beginning of factions, we are friends who socialise in the game together, and do an extraordinary amount of content. 🙂 We have pvmers, and pvpers, and we take in new players and help them progress, and we lose Vets as we go sometimes also, sadly.

Right now, we are at the top, come and fight us. 🙂

Last night after work, Despise, Despise, Oaks, Harry, Terathon, Roofs, we are a Felucca guild, who are highly active and experienced, we play a ton in Felucca, and quite happily take on the server when we can.

I've liked everything you said until then, haha.

Nevermind, I'll let you off. 🙂

I don't do Yew Gate pvp, it is boring, though some of our guild do, I prefer big objective content. I do think pvpers should state their templates, and pvp style when they post, it would enable greater understanding of their perspective.

And ps, the 30 was a bit of an anomaly, it just happened, we often have 3, we often fight way outnumbered.

Ok - explain what scenario Evade/Casting is an issue for you?

The_Higgs_1 said:

Pvp will never get better until this is fixed.  Dont allow evade period when combined with magery, mysticism or chiv above 50 skill.  Evasion should be for one tile pvpers only in order to give it balance!!

Agreed, here's why...

1.  I don't think it's possible to balance weapon swings vs. casting spells, it's like apples and oranges.  Weapons can miss and be blocked.  Spells can't miss but can be interrupted.  With those two facts, I feel safe to say that mages are superior in the overall "mage vs dexer" debate.  You could also argue that weapon abilities have a more intense effect on players in PVP than spells do, for example, you can't dismount with a spell.  In order to interrupt a spell, they have to be hit, and there are ways to reduce the chance of being hit on top of the chance the weapon user has to make a hit.

Let's add to this...

2.  Parry is a game mechanic that you let completely block a weapon attack or special ability.  There is no skill in the game that allows you to do that vs. spells passively.  The other side to this for spells is Resisting Spells - they are in no way alike.  Resisting Spells reduce the intensity and duration of debuffs, among a few other niche things like resisting paralysis.  One mechanic negates the other's ability completely and the other reduces intensity.  Another win for the mages IMO.

I love the fact that you can make anything you want in this game, but I feel there should be limitations because of #1 and #2 above.  Parry Mages are already a tough opponent for Weapon users alone, then give them an Evasion cooldown and it almost feels like a pointless fight.

Yes, there are templates that are going to counter other templates and that is normal.  I feel like an Evasion Mage counters everything though.

I would like to see block chances reduced (not removed) based on the level of casting skills.

Just Disarm them, a counter move available to both Mages and Warriors alike.

I don't see the problem?

Disarm, Dismount, Gank, no issue.

Dismount, Disarm, Gank, even less issue 🙂

Cookie said:

Just Disarm them, a counter move available to both Mages and Warriors alike.

I don't see the problem?

Disarm, Dismount, Gank, no issue.

Dismount, Disarm, Gank, even less issue 🙂

How do you disarm a wrestle bush/parry mage?  Is wrestling even useful to any dexer template - barely?  Meanwhile, they can disarm everyone else, while having max block chance, and evasion cooldown, and free cast cause they're never being hit.

What about that isn't OP to you?

Again I'm not saying completely remove it, but I think a block chance nerf on evasion for casting users would be beneficial to PVP.

Help to understand

So a Bush/Parry/Evade/Mage needs 100+ skills in Bush/mage/parry/tact/anat to get the full effect of Evade and also has to have 80+ dex and has to have a weapon equipped.  All this for a special that lasts 5-8 sec and has a 20 sec cool down and is subject to diminishing returns in pvp.

#1 why is this all of a sudden an OMG this is so OP when it has been in the game for so long?
#2 during the cool down there is no Evade and you still can't kill him then IMHO you need to look at your set up.
#3 Why is it that a Bush/Sword/Tact/Anat/Parry is not OP considering Evade is mainly a defense against a weapons attack.
#4 doesn't disarm cancel Evade until you rearm and what is it that this OP build is evading?

Bilbo said:

Help to understand

So a Bush/Parry/Evade/Mage needs 100+ skills in Bush/mage/parry/tact/anat to get the full effect of Evade and also has to have 80+ dex and has to have a weapon equipped.

Not sure where the tactics/anatomy came from unless I'm missing something.

sibble said:

Bilbo said:

Help to understand

So a Bush/Parry/Evade/Mage needs 100+ skills in Bush/mage/parry/tact/anat to get the full effect of Evade and also has to have 80+ dex and has to have a weapon equipped.

Not sure where the tactics/anatomy came from unless I'm missing something.

3 to 6 seconds with a 2 second bonus if your Bushido is above 100.0 and both Tactics and Anatomy are 100.0 or better

https://www.uoguide.com/Evasion

This had a better write up on it than anybody else and I have never known this site to put out misinformation.

Gotcha... forgot about the duration boost.  The bonus is nice but really comes down to the player's reaction time.  3 seconds seems long enough to evade a dump if that's the minimum possible duration and the maximum of 8 seconds seems kinda excessive.

Also, generally speaking, people go with the minimum required skill they need so they can fit as much into their templates as possible.  What I'm saying is... how many Bokuto Mages do you think are running Anatomy?  I could be wrong on that but I'm pretty sure none of them.

If a Bokuto Mage with Anatomy gets disarmed, I'm wondering if the Anatomy+Eval=Wrestling rule will apply to Block/Evasion.  Normally if a mage is disarmed they have no weapon skill, but if they have Anatomy+Eval that counts as a weapon skill for calculating hit/miss.  I'm wondering if that also spills over to not needing a shield with Bushido.

In short, I agree if they're dumping all that skill then fine.  The people I've run into don't.

Any mage who takes up Parry, has seriously limited his casting ability. He has usually dropped his Meditation to fit in the extra skills, and reduced his Mana from about 210 to 150 to reach the 80+ Dex required to make Parry work. Even with 30 MR, Soul Charge 30% Max LMC etc, he only has enough mana to stay in combat for a maximum of 2 minutes, compared to 5-10 minutes with Med and Mana. In a defensive scenario he can only cast a few fields and he is out, unlike full mana mages that can keep on casting.

He has also reduced his SDI from 35 with Inscription which is a lovely place to be, and what is really required for a mage to kill stuff easily, to 25 because he has lost Inscription, then down to 20 SDI because he is now a Non Pure Mage due to Parry. So he has lost a ton of his damage output. This was a bad nerf to Mages, and designed to stop us using Parry, because so many Dexxers complained the last time around. I said very clearly at the time, it will not make any difference, Mages will still use Parry - because they are forced to - to stand any chance. So this Evasion Mage - is just another step up in defensiveness - why do you think players are playing this defensively? Do you think they want to? Most players would prefer to be out there with their Damage Output nuking things, which is what the Warriors have. At some point you have to address the elephant in the room, and answer why so many Mages are being so defensive, and I've been trying for years to help you out here.

The point is, with the really noticeable loss of Mage casting and damage abilities - these mages cannot kill anything, and are really defensive. They are relying on their team-mates to have synergy. They are not a threat on their own, and like I say, usually spend their time running away.

I also even say - I don't know anyone decent who uses one, you can nerf away for all I care, I just don't get why it is such a problem for you. These Mages have been nerfed into the ground, and are still going.

sibble said:

Gotcha... forgot about the duration boost.  The bonus is nice but really comes down to the player's reaction time.  3 seconds seems long enough to evade a dump if that's the minimum possible duration and the maximum of 8 seconds seems kinda excessive.

Also, generally speaking, people go with the minimum required skill they need so they can fit as much into their templates as possible.  What I'm saying is... how many Bokuto Mages do you think are running Anatomy?  I could be wrong on that but I'm pretty sure none of them.

If a Bokuto Mage with Anatomy gets disarmed, I'm wondering if the Anatomy+Eval=Wrestling rule will apply to Block/Evasion.  Normally if a mage is disarmed they have no weapon skill, but if they have Anatomy+Eval that counts as a weapon skill for calculating hit/miss.  I'm wondering if that also spills over to not needing a shield with Bushido.

In short, I agree if they're dumping all that skill then fine.  The people I've run into don't.

Then you are also forgetting about the 20 sec cool down that they can not use evasion.

Cookie said:

He has usually dropped his Meditation to fit in the extra skills, and reduced his Mana from about 210 to 150 to reach the 80+ Dex required to make Parry work. Even with 30 MR, Soul Charge 30% Max LMC etc, he only has enough mana to stay in combat for a maximum of 2 minutes, compared to 5-10 minutes with Med and Mana. In a defensive scenario he can only cast a few fields and he is out, unlike full mana mages that can keep on casting.

I don't know one person who still runs Meditation period (with or without parry), nor do I know one mage that has mana issues.

Bilbo said:

Then you are also forgetting about the 20 sec cool down that they can not use evasion.

I'm not sure what Higgs is asking for.

All I'm asking for is a reduced block chance and reduced evade chance for people whose templates run casting skills - not getting rid of it completely.  Now that you mention cooldown, maybe it should be longer for casters instead of reducing block chance.

The points I've raised in this thread aren't solely on Evasion which I understand this thread is about.  I'm extending the thought to Parry and blocking altogether.

I feel a dexer has 0 chance of fighting a mage who can also block attacks.  There is no opposite condition in which a mage would have 0 chance of fighting a dexer.

sibble said:

Cookie said:

He has usually dropped his Meditation to fit in the extra skills, and reduced his Mana from about 210 to 150 to reach the 80+ Dex required to make Parry work. Even with 30 MR, Soul Charge 30% Max LMC etc, he only has enough mana to stay in combat for a maximum of 2 minutes, compared to 5-10 minutes with Med and Mana. In a defensive scenario he can only cast a few fields and he is out, unlike full mana mages that can keep on casting.

I don't know one person who still runs Meditation period (with or without parry), nor do I know one mage that has mana issues.

Bilbo said:

Then you are also forgetting about the 20 sec cool down that they can not use evasion.

I'm not sure what Higgs is asking for.

All I'm asking for is a reduced block chance and reduced evade chance for people whose templates run casting skills - not getting rid of it completely.  Now that you mention cooldown, maybe it should be longer for casters instead of reducing block chance.

The points I've raised in this thread aren't solely on Evasion which I understand this thread is about.  I'm extending the thought to Parry and blocking altogether.

I feel a dexer has 0 chance of fighting a mage who can also block attacks.  There is no opposite condition in which a mage would have 0 chance of fighting a dexer.

I still do not know what exactly a Bush/Parry/Mage is evading, can you give me an example of the type of damage he is evading.  Wep, Spell, Arrow and why a Bush/Parry/Dexer couldn't do the exact same thing esp an Archer/Thrower

 So Parry - 100, Bush - 100, Dex - 80 you get

Chance of blocking with a shield: 5% Chance of blocking with a 1-handed weapon: 25% Chance of blocking with a 2-handed weapon: 29%

https://uo.stratics.com/content/skills/parrying.php

Evasion

Puts you in an evasive stance for a short duration, allowing you to parry magical attacks like dragon breath and energy bolt.

And a Dexer can also run evasion and they both have to use a wep and a Dexer can run Chiv with EoO so who is really at the disadvantage if the Dexer lands 1 blow.  If a Dexer can't take one hit from a Parry/Mage then they really have a problem.

sibble said:

I don't know one person who still runs Meditation period (with or without parry), nor do I know one mage that has mana issues.

I have mana issues, and I have maxed every way of getting mana without Med. - there you go, 1 mage 🙂

I can name others, but won't.

You are right, we've extended the conversation - re Evade, like I even say, you can do what you want with it. I'm just not sure why it is an issue. I'm happy to sign out here, I'm not in any major disagreement with you, and have nothing invested in this. But sometimes on changes like this, I'd like to know the real thinking and scenario behind it, because like I say, I play a lot, and am not seeing this.

Bilbo said:

And a Dexer can also run evasion and they both have to use a wep and a Dexer can run Chiv with EoO so who is really at the disadvantage if the Dexer lands 1 blow.  If a Dexer can't take one hit from a Parry/Mage then they really have a problem.

Not sure where the Chivalry came into the discussion, if you're mentioning it as "dexers have chiv mages don't have chiv" thing then, kinda weird.

The Damage Increase bonus from Enemy of One is subject to the DI PVP cap.  Also, I believe it has a maximum increase of 16% in PVP?  Who is dying to 1 hit from a dexer?

Anyways, I've posted my points.

If we can't agree that casters are superior in the dexers vs casters debate then this will never end.

You still haven't really said what a mage is evading that a dexer can't and with all the dexer builds out there what spells is a mage throwing that a decked out PvPer can not take.  Why is a Bush/Mage more powerful than a Bush/Archer/Thrower in PvP both are using ranged damage.  We have sammies sampires or what ever you want to call them taking down champ spawns solo but I have yet to hear about a Bush/Mage doing the same.  Seriously if they are that OP then why isn't it the goto build for everything in Fel?  If a Bush/mage can evade everything thrown at them even from another Bush/Mage then a bush/dexter can do the same thing even from a Bush/Mage.

Alls people are saying is they are OP with no real examples.  What spells/equipment against what spells/equipment/builds with results.  Say what ever you want but without hard facts/data then they are just words.

Bilbo said:

Alls people are saying is they are OP with no real examples.  What spells/equipment against what spells/equipment/builds with results.  Say what ever you want but without hard facts/data then they are just words.

That pretty much goes for you too @Bilbo what real example have you given?

The only example you've given is a dexer running Chiv and casting Enemy of One which proves exactly what?

I gave clear and valid explanations in my first post as to why there is an unbalance.  You're choosing to ignore them and talk about Enemy of One.  Hello?

My only guess is you play a Bokuto Mage and are clearly upset about having changes made to your template.  That's an assumption though, of course, but I'm acknowledging it.

Bilbo said:

Seriously if they are that OP then why isn't it the goto build for everything in Fel?

IT IS  😂 

I don't understand how some people come up with some of these opinions...  Like do we play 2 different games?  I've PVP'd on ATL, LS, GL, Cats, and Chessy, over the past 15 years with some breaks, originally starting on LS in 97.  Not so much recently, maybe only about 4-8hrs a week on ATL.  Currently running with number one PVP guild on the most populated shard.  My opinions are based on my experiences with these shards during those times.

I know @CovenantX he's played a mage so much in UO that he's become one IRL.  For him to come on the official forms and make a statement that maybe something may need to be nerfed in the case of a mage template then you know something's wrong.

CovenantX said:  

    

Please Break parry for mages and the only real problem left would be about 90-95% of the pvp-base is using one or more illegal programs.

What % is casting focus and poison immunity?

Parry/Mages are not the goto build for taking down Champs and it sure isn't the goto for the Roof or Events.

I stopped PvPing way before AoS but I PvE, less demanding on the fingers/wrists, and yes I have a Mage and it does nowhere the damage and of my Malee/Chiv chars do and I haven't met a Mage PvE that really gave me concern and in do way stood up against my Chiv/Archer.

So your saying that there is no build out there that can touch your Bush/Mage when evade at max lasts 8 secs with a cool down of 20 sec that they can not evade, so what the other char is waiting for you to regain evade before attacking again.

I reread your first post and there are ZERO facts in it.  Exactly what where you evading and what happened to you after the evade wore off until you could reuse it, did you just run all over for 20 secs.  Takes me a lot less time to heal myself than 20 sec so effectively you have done nothing to your attacker because they healed/spell wore off or what ever whilke you were hiding from them.

Bilbo said:

Parry/Mages are not the goto build for taking down Champs and it sure isn't the goto for the Roof or Events.

My friend, we are on two different planets.  Someone running into a Felucca dungeon spinning up a champion and killing it - this is not PVP.  What player versus player interaction occurs in that scenario?

Bilbo said:

I stopped PvPing way before AoS but I PvE

Yes, I completely understand now.  Question, why do you feel you have an opinion on the current state of PVP when you don't PVP anymore?

The problem is we're experiencing two different games.  With that, I'm going to see myself out of this discussion because at this point any dev that possibly read this thread can understand what's going on.

No offense to you or any other non-PVPers, you can't understand the current state of PVP unless you've experienced it nightly over at least a few months.  This is the problem PVPers have had with the game for YEARS.  The devs account for non-PVPer opinions regarding PVP, and change the game.

sibble said:

What % is casting focus and poison immunity?

@CovenantX bro u think I've been gone away that long?

I was asking what percentage of those 2 things attribute to the 90-95% of the pvp problems.

 😂 

CovenantX said:

  

    Magery is both the most versatile & powerful skill in UO (pvp).

it scales up in teams, is this real?  Everything scales up in teams... except mages (or spellcasters in general) scale up better than any non-caster templates do, because of their range (they don't trip on each other as much as a group of dexers would) & of course their inability to miss... hence evasion.

I meant it scales up better, why would I have made this point otherwise? It has scaling efficiencies.

 Warriors don't need parry.   that's the best part.   warriors can disarm other warriors completely neutralizing their offense AND defense, they can walk away from a warrior to reduce their sustained dps. and if they do have parry it's 100% because bushido's Evasion requires Parry to survive magery.

Fair point, lucky warriors.

Parry is literally only a useful standalone skill for spell-casters.  you won't see a successful template with Parry that doesn't heavily rely on spells for both healing and or damage output.

My 2 sons both use Parry Healing Throwers that are working very nicely. Not the most sophisticated, but very reliable, solid and versatile actually. So strictly speaking, they don't use spells, but they are ranged I admit.

In the past, I have used a Glenda Shield Bash warrior that was pretty successful, but it was a dexxer with 2 moves, I got bored and moved on.

Parry has been more a Mages skill since shame loot (and global loot) allowed every possible armor piece to have Dex bonus on it, but Parry should mostly be a Warrior skill, its of course... anything but that.

I'll give you this. Who really thinks I want Parry on my Mage? I really don't, I shouldn't have it. I'd rather Inscription, Poison, Spell-weaving, Alchemy, something else. Why do I have it - because I, like every other mage, is forced to. I've only just switched back to Parry Mage, because I've had to. Banes, Dismounts, Bok mages, infinite Deathstrikers etc.

When's the last time you saw a parry warrior using a shield?    you know what's even better than that?  Magery+Parry +/- Evade + Potions & Refinements.   I can't believe this has been so broken for the last like 5+ years now, without any meaningful attempt to be fixed.

Glenda Shield Bash warriors. Parry Throwers. 🙂

first they took away 5% SDI from focus spec (30% down to 25%), then an additional -5% SDI when Parry was added to the focus break list....  but guess what... it wasn't the mages offense that needed to be nerfed... it was and always has been their Defense, I said that back when this was being discussed on stratics before these changes.

I also disagreed with this at the time, but for differing reasons. I correctly said, that no matter how much they nerf the offence, Mages will still use Parry - because they NEED to. So now, no matter how you look at it, Parry mages have been nerfed, and are still playing that template - why?

Then more recently adding diminishing returns on evasion?  C'mon man... That is Magery vs Magery... an evade Dexer is normally running away when they're evading...

@ Bleak

Please Break parry for mages and the only real problem left would be about 90-95% of the pvp-base is using one or more illegal programs.

Breaking Parry will not fix Mages, it will wipe the whole class out in pvp. You need to make it so Mages do not actually NEED Parry, and voluntarily give it up because they have other options. I have only just picked up Parry recently - because I needed to, I've joined the mass ranks. I can tell you, Mage without Parry was zero fun in all the fights I;ve been fighting, I've retired my main, and favourite Caster because without Parry he was pointless in pvp. Look at why they are taking up Parry - and fix those issues, then mages will switch out for something else.

I don't know how to reply to each bit well, so I'm inserting it into your quotes. Bold Italics for my responses.

In some respects I agree with you, in others I don't.

I'd like to see Parry go back to Warriors.

I'd like to see pure Warriors make a return.

I'd like to see Parry off Mages. On the original topic of Evade - I just don't really see why this is an issue even. But - I'm quite happy for Evade to be taken off also - I just have not seen anyone explain why this is an issue.

But it's the how to do it I disagree on, just breaking Parry, will break the entire Mage class in pvp, they are using it, because they are forced to, many of us really don't want to. You need to understand why they are all using Parry, and give an option for when you break it.

I will ask you the Counter question - How many successful Pure Scribe mages do you see out there?

This discussion is about evasion on casters, not parry.  Being able to absorb 200+ damage while being at range to damage another.  This is what needs to fixed.  Its different on a warrior cause he has to be on top of you in order to deal any damage plus they have to land a hit, evasion is a tool for them to absorb some damage from the mage while they get close enough to hit back.  

I personally would also like to see a parry drop chance for only the wrestle/anatomy parry combo on a mage as well.  But that is a seperate issue not concerning the this discussion.

sibble said:

Cookie said:

He has usually dropped his Meditation to fit in the extra skills, and reduced his Mana from about 210 to 150 to reach the 80+ Dex required to make Parry work. Even with 30 MR, Soul Charge 30% Max LMC etc, he only has enough mana to stay in combat for a maximum of 2 minutes, compared to 5-10 minutes with Med and Mana. In a defensive scenario he can only cast a few fields and he is out, unlike full mana mages that can keep on casting.

I don't know one person who still runs Meditation period (with or without parry), nor do I know one mage that has mana issues.

Bilbo said:

Then you are also forgetting about the 20 sec cool down that they can not use evasion.

I'm not sure what Higgs is asking for.

All I'm asking for is a reduced block chance and reduced evade chance for people whose templates run casting skills - not getting rid of it completely.  Now that you mention cooldown, maybe it should be longer for casters instead of reducing block chance.

The points I've raised in this thread aren't solely on Evasion which I understand this thread is about.  I'm extending the thought to Parry and blocking altogether.

I feel a dexer has 0 chance of fighting a mage who can also block attacks.  There is no opposite condition in which a mage would have 0 chance of fighting a dexer.

I think the interesting thing when I see you debating the casters being OP and asking for dci reduction is why are all of your dexxers suits refined to lower your resist cap and increase your DCI to 60?

If spell casters are OP, wouldn't you want higher resists to counter that?  Your DCI cap being 60 isn't going to save you from a standard parry mage or any kind of evade mage that isn't using a bokuto.  If they shield bash, they have no mana.  If they're using balakai wand they have zero ways to prevent you from running.  

Cookie said:

CovenantX said:

  

    Magery is both the most versatile & powerful skill in UO (pvp).

it scales up in teams, is this real?  Everything scales up in teams... except mages (or spellcasters in general) scale up better than any non-caster templates do, because of their range (they don't trip on each other as much as a group of dexers would) & of course their inability to miss... hence evasion.

I meant it scales up better, why would I have made this point otherwise? It has scaling efficiencies.

 Warriors don't need parry.   that's the best part.   warriors can disarm other warriors completely neutralizing their offense AND defense, they can walk away from a warrior to reduce their sustained dps. and if they do have parry it's 100% because bushido's Evasion requires Parry to survive magery.

Fair point, lucky warriors.

Parry is literally only a useful standalone skill for spell-casters.  you won't see a successful template with Parry that doesn't heavily rely on spells for both healing and or damage output.

My 2 sons both use Parry Healing Throwers that are working very nicely. Not the most sophisticated, but very reliable, solid and versatile actually. So strictly speaking, they don't use spells, but they are ranged I admit.

In the past, I have used a Glenda Shield Bash warrior that was pretty successful, but it was a dexxer with 2 moves, I got bored and moved on.

Parry has been more a Mages skill since shame loot (and global loot) allowed every possible armor piece to have Dex bonus on it, but Parry should mostly be a Warrior skill, its of course... anything but that.

I'll give you this. Who really thinks I want Parry on my Mage? I really don't, I shouldn't have it. I'd rather Inscription, Poison, Spell-weaving, Alchemy, something else. Why do I have it - because I, like every other mage, is forced to. I've only just switched back to Parry Mage, because I've had to. Banes, Dismounts, Bok mages, infinite Deathstrikers etc.

When's the last time you saw a parry warrior using a shield?    you know what's even better than that?  Magery+Parry +/- Evade + Potions & Refinements.   I can't believe this has been so broken for the last like 5+ years now, without any meaningful attempt to be fixed.

Glenda Shield Bash warriors. Parry Throwers. 🙂

first they took away 5% SDI from focus spec (30% down to 25%), then an additional -5% SDI when Parry was added to the focus break list....  but guess what... it wasn't the mages offense that needed to be nerfed... it was and always has been their Defense, I said that back when this was being discussed on stratics before these changes.

I also disagreed with this at the time, but for differing reasons. I correctly said, that no matter how much they nerf the offence, Mages will still use Parry - because they NEED to. So now, no matter how you look at it, Parry mages have been nerfed, and are still playing that template - why?

Then more recently adding diminishing returns on evasion?  C'mon man... That is Magery vs Magery... an evade Dexer is normally running away when they're evading...

@ Bleak

Please Break parry for mages and the only real problem left would be about 90-95% of the pvp-base is using one or more illegal programs.

Breaking Parry will not fix Mages, it will wipe the whole class out in pvp. You need to make it so Mages do not actually NEED Parry, and voluntarily give it up because they have other options. I have only just picked up Parry recently - because I needed to, I've joined the mass ranks. I can tell you, Mage without Parry was zero fun in all the fights I;ve been fighting, I've retired my main, and favourite Caster because without Parry he was pointless in pvp. Look at why they are taking up Parry - and fix those issues, then mages will switch out for something else.

I don't know how to reply to each bit well, so I'm inserting it into your quotes. Bold Italics for my responses.

In some respects I agree with you, in others I don't.

I'd like to see Parry go back to Warriors.

I'd like to see pure Warriors make a return.

I'd like to see Parry off Mages. On the original topic of Evade - I just don't really see why this is an issue even. But - I'm quite happy for Evade to be taken off also - I just have not seen anyone explain why this is an issue.

But it's the how to do it I disagree on, just breaking Parry, will break the entire Mage class in pvp, they are using it, because they are forced to, many of us really don't want to. You need to understand why they are all using Parry, and give an option for when you break it.

I will ask you the Counter question - How many successful Pure Scribe mages do you see out there?

Sorry just a short and quick interruption... I am actually happy to forego parrying defense for a higher sdi max from current 25 up to 35% excluding scribe, for a pure mage.
Then I might pvp with a pure scribe mage with 45% sdi but no parrrying ability.

End of interruption...

I find it strange talking to you @covenantx.

I don't think I've ever met you in battle, they say you are a mage, yet you seem to have zero experience of playing a mage, and only seem to understand dexxers - yet you don't even understand them, because again, I can tell you, they are completely the opposite to how you portray them. You don't seem to know the pvp scene in reality.

You talk a lot of theory-craft, and a lot about meta's, yet don't really seem to have any practical experience.

You have no understanding of being a Mage. Or even a Dexxer. Everything you say, is the other way around in reality.

Cookie said:

I find it strange talking to you @ covenantx.

I don't think I've ever met you in battle, they say you are a mage, yet you seem to have zero experience of playing a mage, and only seem to understand dexxers - yet you don't even understand them, because again, I can tell you, they are completely the opposite to how you portray them. You don't seem to know the pvp scene in reality.

You talk a lot of theory-craft, and a lot about meta's, yet don't really seem to have any practical experience.

You have no understanding of being a Mage. Or even a Dexxer. Everything you say, is the other way around in reality.

Cookie said:

Just Disarm them, a counter move available to both Mages and Warriors alike.

I don't see the problem?

Disarm, Dismount, Gank, no issue.

Dismount, Disarm, Gank, even less issue 🙂

It's not that it isn't true, your stats are great, but you don't reflect the reality of Largescale pvp well.

Chances of this and that - it only takes 1 success, to turn an entire fight. Edit - And there is 1 Special, more than any other, that turns large-scale pvp fights, and quite frankly often ruins them.

Everything a mage does is reliable? Being stunned, dismounted, interrupted, bled, strangled, resisted, poison spell almost never works due to so many counters - petals, poison mastery, cures, bandage heals - that is the main lock a mage has - which is over-nullified, compared to all the others going. And then ironicaly - DP Dexxers get the highest poison lock which trumps everything and cures bug out on all the time and fail on (even with max 50EP can take a ton of cures and you're dead by then from 1 poison lock - often don't get time to cast arch cure). As well as Banes ofc. Trapped boxes for Para spell. It's not my definition of reliable. Ok, a dexxer may miss a few swings, but when they get the hit in, it's game changing. Mage having to stop to even cast - which clearly allows a dexxer to step right up and hit them, and the speed the game is played at these days. Edit - Today one of our Archers (in stats) got a beautiful AI or 2 in on a Bane Rider and 1 second he was there, the next he wasn't.

Europa shard btw, we had a good pvp IDOC tonight.

Last night, 2 Harries, one contested at prime time against the shard. God and Pro could have taken us out, but luckily they didn't ally this time, and fought each other, so we made it. We have those numbers, because we fight those numbers. Don't get hung up on the fact you only 1v1, or you play on a poor pvp shard like Atlantic. I have already stated - I prefer largescale battles, that is how I play, how I have always played - to win objectives - ever since the first days of factions. As far as I am concerned = PvP is a team event, that's why I say it is no issue to Disarm, etc etc - we do even have a Mage Bard in pvp, we have Trackers, we have the works, we don't just rely on 1 {Meta} Template, we play what we want and try and counter everything.

I actually use the word gank to everything, because I'm being Ironic back to you lot. You guys always stick up for Dismount ganking and say how ok it is, so I do it now, and I'm taking the piss out of you all - because it's too easy, and ridiculous.

Cookie said:

It's not that it isn't true, your stats are great, but you don't reflect the reality of Largescale pvp well.

Chances of this and that - it only takes 1 success, to turn an entire fight.

CovenantX said:

Cookie said:

It's not that it isn't true, your stats are great, but you don't reflect the reality of Largescale pvp well.

Chances of this and that - it only takes 1 success, to turn an entire fight.

  yeah I figured as much, but it's also ridiculous.

   First, you make no sense.   you're basically saying what I said is true (I know it is, but anyway), then not based in reality of 'large scale pvp, contradicting yourself immediately trollish behavior..   you remind me of a particular LotR fella that's been around.

 you're going to have to elaborate on this '1 success' because that highly depends on what it would be, because you speak vaguely about things leaving out important details except the ones that seemingly go against your point.  

-You look like you have no idea what you're talking about... but then again

maybe if I played with 30 people on my side, I could have literally any itty bitty tiny little success and the rest of the 29 people can continue carrying me, maybe i'd be saying the same things.

I pvp potentially 2 hours a day and have done for a long time (99?). I am equally happy fighting outnumbered, again don't get hung up on the numbers to try and make yourself look good or discredit me.

I mentioned we have been at the top, we have been at the bottom, you chose to ignore that, and focus on the fact we can field 30 right now. Sometimes we could field 2, against 20. And we are still here - again, there is a circle in PvP, top guilds rise and fall, most go to the wall, we never have, but we do certainly rise and fall, and I'm always there pvping no matter what. I don't need any practice, and I don't need any lecturing from a 2 bit theory crafter who has had no influence on the game.

I am not sitting there theory-crafting and talking about Meta's, I am playing the game, and feeling it, experiencing it. I talk about feelings and experiences, because that is what I am interested in - yes the stats matter in setting up correctly, but after that, it is about the emotion. I can tell instantly when something is off with the game, ie a new bug, because I can feel the difference in speed or power to normal, I don't need stats to tell me. That's for others to work out to be fair - I'm playing the game for the fun factor. I can tell instantly when something really isn't fun, because that is what I play for.

I'm not speaking vaguely, this is what frustrates me about forum posters, if you pvp'd you would be seeing it, feeling it, you would know what I'm talking about, and I would not have to keep explaining every single little thing.

By the way - I did go up and edit my post - to give an example of 1 success. It doesn't have to be just that, and you should have known, I should not have had to say.

I'm going to add an Edit, because you are another poster who clearly needs it. I'll try and give an example. The figures are all made up, to make the example easy.

Mage 70% chance of landing a spell - the spell will have 10% impact on a group fight.

Warrior 10% chance of hitting - the strike will have a 70% chance of impacting the fight.

So I am saying - you quote the Bold Stats straight from the books (Hence I don't disagree with this bit), lovely, but you don't have an understanding of the Impact (in Italics) on large-scale PvP, probably due to lack of experience, it is clear by the way you keep trashing team numbers, and your talk about Meta's. Rather than talking via your Genuine PvP experiences.

Cookie said:

I pvp potentially 2 hours a day and have done for a long time (99?). I am equally happy fighting outnumbered, again don't get hung up on the numbers to try and make yourself look good or discredit me.

I'm not speaking vaguely, this is what frustrates me about forum posters, if you pvp'd you would be seeing it, feeling it, you would know what I'm talking about, and I would not have to keep explaining every single little thing.

By the way - I did go up and edit my post - to give an example of 1 success. It doesn't have to be just that, and you should have known, I should not have had to say.

I'm going to add an Edit, because you are another poster who clearly needs it. I'll try and give an example. The figures are all made up, to make the example easy.

Mage 70% chance of landing a spell - the spell will have 10% impact on a group fight.

Warrior 10% chance of hitting - the strike will have a 70% chance of impacting the fight.

So I am saying - you quote the Bold Stats straight from the books (Hence I don't disagree with this bit), lovely, but you don't have an understanding of the Impact (in Italics) on large-scale PvP, probably due to lack of experience, it is clear by the way you keep trashing team numbers.

  

LearnMe said:

I think the interesting thing when I see you debating the casters being OP and asking for dci reduction is why are all of your dexxers suits refined to lower your resist cap and increase your DCI to 60?

1.  I don't bother fighting parry mages in a 1v1 anymore and...
2.  The mages I do fight, I'm taking 5% extra damage from.  It's really not much.

It's an unpopular opinion to refine for DCI and I feel like a lot of people haven't even tried it.

(and it's 70 DCI)

Right Covenant,

I'm going to try and make this easy for you, then I'm going to give up, because there is only so much I can do.

Mage reliability is not 100% - due to all the reasons I gave above - and I gave lots of reasons, was not vague, lets use resist, and interruptions as 2 prime examples, those spells are not going to land, or even complete, that is not 100% reliability. Having to stand fixed to a spot to be a target while casting, who lets you do that? If Mage Reliability were 100%, why does the Protection Spell, and Casting Focus even exist as a concept?

Regarding Mage Impact of spells - what Impact does a Poison spell have? low level poison, I've already listed above about 4 different counters that everyone is using, it's at the point most Mages do not even cast poison. I do, I cast it about 50 times to try and use up their consumables. What impact does Paralyse have? What impact does flamestrike, or any other damage spell we have? They are all nice little spells for sure, but they do not affect a fight in themselves. It's actually got to the joke scenario for a mage, where our most Impactful spell is Wall of Stone...

The dexxers I play against are actually very good, they are devils. 🙂

Ok. Now for Warrior ability Impact as a comparison.

Dismount is a game-changer. It radically alters the speed differentials of players, and UO PvP is all about speeds. It makes 1 player a very clear sitting duck and target.

Lethal Poison level 5 is a game-changer. It is very hard to cure, and often bugs out even, meaning a Poison Lock really can be achieved for a quick death. For a real ingame example of how deadly this is, many times, I cannot land an arch-cure before the victim is dead, this is the speed we play at. I feel I should at least get a chance to counter this. This is why Banes are so deadly also.

3 x Armour Ignore is a game-changer. It kills - very quickly, 3 x flamestrikes take an infinitely longer time to cast and do less damage.

3 x Deathstrike is a game-changer. They either fix you to a spot to be ganked, or you take a serious amount of damage - again these can be spammed pretty much instantly.

Mortal is a game-changer. Not over-powered, I'm not complaining, it has effective counters with apples and cleansing winds (bit slow this spell), but the point is, it's another Lock and when used effectively results in a good clean death.

Splinter even is a game-changer. Again - I've stuck up for this ability a lot, so not complaining, but it slows you down, for many other specials to be released on you, often resulting in death.

What do all of these have in common?

They are Warrior specials. Mages don't have an equivalent. Mages quite often don't have a counter. Mages cannot apply anything as fast or as damaging as these abilities. These abilities have serious Impact on a fight - they lead to very rapid death. Nothing a Mage can do, has the Impact these abilities do. Speed differentials, Locks, Instant huge Damage, fixing players that need to move to the spot.

Now I'm not complaining about them, and I've even defended them, (except Dismount which I think goes too far - and I wish Lethal Poison would be a bit less buggy).

What is the primary Mage defence for all of these abilities? The answer is prevention is better than cure, so Parry.

CovenantX said:

  

   

 

Break parry on mages they'll still be King in pvp,(like they were before parry became easily accessible)... but dexers would at least have a more fair shot One vs One when fighting mages.

 

You know what else became easily accessible when gear gave more Stats?

It wasn't just Dex for Parry.

It was Intelligence and Mana for unlimited Warrior Specials.

I believe Warriors got by far the better deal out of this change in loot properties.

As I have said, do you really believe Mages wanted to be using Parry, when there is so much more mage related stuff out there for them? But I do know warriors love chaining specials.

This is the prime example that shows just how biased you are, you really are only seeing one side in all this.

sibble said:

LearnMe said:

I think the interesting thing when I see you debating the casters being OP and asking for dci reduction is why are all of your dexxers suits refined to lower your resist cap and increase your DCI to 60?

1.  I don't bother fighting parry mages in a 1v1 anymore and...
2.  The mages I do fight, I'm taking 5% extra damage from.  It's really not much.

It's an unpopular opinion to refine for DCI and I feel like a lot of people haven't even tried it.

(and it's 70 DCI)

I think @learnme makes a good point here.

I don't see why you don't fight parry mages, they only have enough mana for about 2 minutes, you have unlimited free resource swings, there ultimately is only 1 result in a dexxer v mage fight, unless the mage pulls out something genuinely clever and skilful like a trap.

It's not that unpopular to refine for DCI.

CovenantX said:

  

    First, I don't need to make myself look good on the forums, nor do I need to discredit you, as you've done enough self-discrediting in the most recent locked thread already. (when it became an EC vs CC 'speed' debate). 

And ps. I won that debate hands down, mainly because I was completely correct on all counts 🙂

I was glad the thread was locked, I was bored of it. And truthfully, I will get bored here soon, I've made my point as clearly as I can.

I will equally win this one, until Mr Mod stops me in my tracks, which they are fully entitled to do. 🙂

For a complete summary for you;

Evasion can be nerfed, I don't care. But it seems an odd move to me.

Parry - I am happy if it is taken off mages, we even have agreement here. But mages do need some counters to the issues I have raised, or it is a complete wipe-out, I know, because I am one of the last few who has been playing without Parry. And all the dexxers say to me, "god, I wouldn't do that". I also experience first hand non-stop, exactly what they can do to a mage without parry.

Marcus said:

Cookie whats your full template including + skills on the suit. Nevermind I see now you play Parry/Anat/Healing mage.

Original Cookie = Pure Scribe mage, I'd love to get back to that. Deleted the account when AoS came out.

Wraith - Parry Mage. This character was a bit boring, exactly like when I played it as an Evasion Mage.

Alea Iacta Est = 6 x Pure Mage Spellweaver. Amazing character, not viable anymore in pvp sadly. Been my main for many years.

Hermes - only commissioned recently - exactly as you say, well done, I don't exactly hide it 🙂 It is doing the job described on the tin. Really like him, but would have no issues going back to more Mage related skills, but this is impossible under the current pvp direction re skills.

I've played everything in between, including warriors, I actually love pure warriors, and I currently love my Parry Throwers for messing around on 🙂

Edit - just to respond to the last bit - including +skills on the suit. I know this is very en-vogue to use +100 to +200 skills on a suit for pvp. I don't use +skills for quite a few reasons. 1. Bards can counter these skills, and render your character pretty weak. 2. The piece of armour you have +skills on can wear out, leaving your character messed up. 3. Having +Skills on a suit, means a really high opportunity cost of not having all the other really useful properties you would want. Others see this differently, and that is fine if that is how they want to play.

If there was enough good players left in UO, templates would be more offensive and less defensive.  Todays pvp is bad decision players playing with high defense on such things as evade mages and wrestle parry mages.   Easy button survivability templates which ruins the real pvp from returning to glory.  Evasion was never meant for mages, just return it to how its supposed to be.

Cookie said:

Right Covenant,

3 x Deathstrike is a game-changer. They either fix you to a spot to be ganked, or you take a serious amount of damage - again these can be spammed pretty much instantly.

Cookie said:

And ps. I won that debate hands down, mainly because I was completely correct on all counts 🙂

You think you're correct on a bunch of statements that you're sorely wrong on.

Cookie said:

I don't think I've ever met you in battle, they say you are a mage, yet you seem to have zero experience of playing a mage, and only seem to understand dexxers - yet you don't even understand them, because again, I can tell you, they are completely the opposite to how you portray them. You don't seem to know the pvp scene in reality.

You talk a lot of theory-craft, and a lot about meta's, yet don't really seem to have any practical experience.

You have no understanding of being a Mage. Or even a Dexxer. Everything you say, is the other way around in reality.

I cringe reading your assumptions of myself and other players.  Just because you don't share the same opinion as someone else, doesn't make them dumb or inexperienced.

Here's some of my gameplay over the years: youtube.com/c/sibbleTV/videos

You don't know me as well as I don't know you.  Stop assuming players' experience.

There is valuable feedback here, argument and counter argument. However I believe the thread is now becoming too personal.