Can throwers have more love (or less hatred) from developers?

Dear All, I want to talk about thrower weapons and artifacts. 
1- Treasure maps. 
You cannot  get any throwing weapon in Trammel, Felucca, Malas and Ilshennar. This is OK and reasonable. By lore Ilshennar should have some. There was old gargish city there, remember? But even when I am lucky to get ranger treasure map in Ter Mur I am getting ton of bows and crossbows. Warrior maps are OK - you can alter some weapon. But you cannot alter a bow.  Please remove archery ranged weapons from Ter Mur ranger maps. 
2- Message in Bottle. 
There are gargish ships, pirate captains give some gargish loot, but there are no artifacts for gargoyles in chests. Driftwood soul glaive will be good.
3 - BMV Ararat - shadowlords have artifact crossbow (bane) but not a Soul Glaive
4- Stygian abyss Medusa has a good artifact composite bow and no throwing weapon
5- Eodon - Aloron armor set is not alterable. 
Currently only usefull arties are Covetous Blight of Tundra  (lesser slayers, 100% cold) and Valkyrie Glaive. There are no throwing weapon for ninjia (like Yumi) and throwing has no impact on shuriken throwing (silly, yes?). Also throwers have no wooden throwing weapon. Boomerangs should be wooden.  Dont know if Fey slayer from gathering Evidence is good - cannot make Rouser to spawn a quest mob, even I killed lots of them. 

Proposition to add new artifacts to : Minions of Scelestus (book quest reward for killing tons of them is really so low!) and Night terrors.  

It is tough as a Gargoyle to be fair, I've been building 4 over the last few months. On one level, they are a very basic character, and they don't need much to get going, you can get right into the game fast. on another level, when it comes to properly gearing them, it is hard.

The inconsistency is really hard, but what is also hard is that most of the rewards/artefacts for Gargoyles are given out through top end play only.

There are very limited ways of getting any decent armour as you level your character up.

For me, it wasn't so much an issue, I have an entire veteran guild behind me helping me, but for a starter it would be pretty hard I think.

I would like to see more selection, more updated stuff, and more cohesive equipment, and even sets of weapons etc, but then I'm like that across the board, for all gear and equipment, but yes, you really notice it on gargoyles.

I lost my ability to edit - to summarise gargoyles using Chess terminology, they have an opening game, and an endgame, but they have no middle game.

I don't put what has happened to Gargoyles as lack of love, or hatred, to me they are just a system that has got left behind a bit, along with so many. They were implemented, they get forgotten about. To me, it is so important to maintain systems that are implemented. I do agree, they could use a bit of work to update them a bit, it doesn't have to be so much, like I say for all the old systems, just a tweak here and there would make them much more fit for purpose.

the fact that none of the throwing weapons have whirlwind attack is shameful ....

Cookie said:

It is tough as a Gargoyle to be fair, I've been building 4 over the last few months. On one level, they are a very basic character, and they don't need much to get going, you can get right into the game fast. on another level, when it comes to properly gearing them, it is hard.

The inconsistency is really hard, but what is also hard is that most of the rewards/artefacts for Gargoyles are given out through top end play only.

There are very limited ways of getting any decent armour as you level your character up.

For me, it wasn't so much an issue, I have an entire veteran guild behind me helping me, but for a starter it would be pretty hard I think.

I would like to see more selection, more updated stuff, and more cohesive equipment, and even sets of weapons etc, but then I'm like that across the board, for all gear and equipment, but yes, you really notice it on gargoyles.

I think a whole lot of issues that many Gargoyles lament, to my understanding, would just go away overnight if way, but WAY more armor from Humans and Elves was to be altered for Gargoyle....

The problem, to my opinion, is that the armor pieces that can be altered are way too few....

McDougle said:

the fact that none of the throwing weapons have whirlwind attack is shameful ....

Indeed, the options for Throwing weapons are much limited as compared to other Combat skills...

You have no double shot or double strike option either for Throwing while it is present for other combat skills....

McDougle said:

the fact that none of the throwing weapons have whirlwind attack is shameful ....

Archers also dont have whirlwind. Throwers have not so bad mystic arc. But it is for boomerang which is 6 tiles range. So it is worse than magic bow lightning.
Gargoyles also have no Frenzied whirlwind weapon, But it is out of this topic scope. 

popps said:

Indeed, the options for Throwing weapons are much limited as compared to other Combat skills...

You have no double shot or double strike option either for Throwing while it is present for other combat skills....

Throwing is not a combat skill - it is even not included in special move mana cost reduction (200 skill points -5 etc..). 

I don't play a garg at all, so the last thing I want is to start getting a 50/50 mix of garg stuff for everything. 
I think
whatever race you are completing content with should come into play across the board (for loot) rather than just a few events being race specific drops. I believe the "treasures of" events gives drops based on garg vs non-garg which I think should be the norm across monster drops/treasure chests/SOS chest/etc.

popps said:

I think a whole lot of issues that many Gargoyles lament, to my understanding, would just go away overnight if way, but WAY more armor from Humans and Elves was to be altered for Gargoyle....

The problem, to my opinion, is that the armor pieces that can be altered are way too few....

I'd agree that more things should be able to be altered. The only drawback to that is that gargs have 1 less armor slot (I believe no gloves equiv) but I'd just assume that slot wouldn't be able to be altered. 

I think having more things being alterable and getting more race specific drops based on whatever toon you do stuff on, there wouldn't be much more effort needed to do anything.

gloves of feudal turn into kilt

Gwen said:

Throwing is not a combat skill - it is even not included in special move mana cost reduction (200 skill points -5 etc..). 

Throwing is not a combat skill ?

In what sense ?

To my viewing, combat is anything that hits targets.... when a Thrower throws a weapon and hits a Target, they get into a fight, so how is that not considered a combat skill ?

I do not get it.

keven2002 said:]
I don't play a garg at all, so the last thing I want is to start getting a 50/50 mix of garg stuff for everything. 

The only drawback to that is that gargs have 1 less armor slot (I believe no gloves equiv) but I'd just assume that slot wouldn't be able to be altered. 

Same slot QTY for armor. kilt is as gloves.    But garg amulet (neck) and earrings (helmet) cannot be enhanced. 
Also gargs have no clothing slots, so cannot use 3 more slots with arcane stones. This is not a big trouble anyway 

I am not asking 50/50 for everything. But TerMur Tmaps should give gargish treasures. All other facets- let them be as they are now. 

popps said:

Gwen said:

Throwing is not a combat skill - it is even not included in special move mana cost reduction (200 skill points -5 etc..). 

Throwing is not a combat skill ?

In what sense ?

To my viewing, combat is anything that hits targets.... when a Thrower throws a weapon and hits a Target, they get into a fight, so how is that not considered a combat skill ?

I do not get it.

The Mana Cost of each special move can be reduced if the warrior’s skills are high enough. Add up the skill points for Swords, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Archery, Parrying, Lumberjacking, Stealth, Poisoning, Bushido and Ninjitsu. If the total lies between 200 and 299, subtract 5 from the Mana Cost. If the total is 300 or more, subtract 10 from the Mana Cost.
https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/special-moves/
Throwing is not included. 

Gwen said:

popps said:

Gwen said:

Throwing is not a combat skill - it is even not included in special move mana cost reduction (200 skill points -5 etc..). 

Throwing is not a combat skill ?

In what sense ?

To my viewing, combat is anything that hits targets.... when a Thrower throws a weapon and hits a Target, they get into a fight, so how is that not considered a combat skill ?

I do not get it.

The Mana Cost of each special move can be reduced if the warrior’s skills are high enough. Add up the skill points for Swords, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Archery, Parrying, Lumberjacking, Stealth, Poisoning, Bushido and Ninjitsu. If the total lies between 200 and 299, subtract 5 from the Mana Cost. If the total is 300 or more, subtract 10 from the Mana Cost.
https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/special-moves/
Throwing is not included. 

I am just guessing here.... maybe just an oversight and Throwing was left out while it should have been put in being used for Combat like the included skills are ?

I am just guessing here, as I said....

Throwers are very prominent among EM item hunters. Something tells me that this is because they have some advantages that haven't been highlighted in this thread.

JohnKnighthawke said:

Throwers are very prominent among EM item hunters. Something tells me that this is because they have some advantages that haven't been highlighted in this thread.

I totally fail to see what these advantages might be for a Race/Skill with so few weapons and much harder options for armor as compared to other Races and Skills...

Even as Tamers they cannot ride their Mounts....

The only 1 advantage that I can think of, is the very few Flying paths available in the Abyss which, though, for a long time for some where not even usable because broken.....

So, really, it looks odd to me to hear about advantages for Gargoyles Throwers....

easy targeting and no waste of ammo soul glavine have range of 11 

Why can’t gargoyle fly up wall with wings.  Too fat?  Why no flying carpet mount?

Why can't they fly over a stream or a river that's a better one.  They can only fly were others can walk.  Does not make to much  sense to me.  Also, really the lack of different kinds of weapons.  Don't find many throwing weapons for sale.  Have to rely on the toxic sliths in Tel Mur for my inventory.  Don't really care too much for the special moves either.  Kind of a frustrating race to play.  Can fly while casting RC though and that is big advantage over other races that have to walk.  Have not tried a melee weapon on mine.  Throwing does not qualify to use best skill weapons.  Maybe, they might play better using melee weapons instead of throwing weapons.

My Pally/thrower is strong did very well in both deceit and ice now if only bushido worked properly with ranged weapons...

Elvis said:

Why no flying carpet mount?

You're being facetious here but my mage character would love a flying carpet vanity mount.

Arnold7 said:

Have not tried a melee weapon on mine.  Throwing does not qualify to use best skill weapons.  Maybe, they might play better using melee weapons instead of throwing weapons.

popps said:

JohnKnighthawke said:

Throwers are very prominent among EM item hunters. Something tells me that this is because they have some advantages that haven't been highlighted in this thread.

I totally fail to see what these advantages might be for a Race/Skill with so few weapons and much harder options for armor as compared to other Races and Skills...

Even as Tamers they cannot ride their Mounts....

The only 1 advantage that I can think of, is the very few Flying paths available in the Abyss which, though, for a long time for some where not even usable because broken.....

So, really, it looks odd to me to hear about advantages for Gargoyles Throwers....

I'm curious as well. Is it just the range and flight that give it a boost in certain scenarios? Or is there something that's on the dl that I dont know? I have no gargs they dont look great on cc.

When you have a group of Throwing Gargs, they do a lot of damage and fight from a distance.

I got the correct weapons for Ice. My thrower did as well as he was Melle toon. Since they just had Anat, Tac,weapon skill. Neither could kill the 3 top paragons.  Distance toons need more SSI.  I think it is a fair trade off.  Learn how to play the build. A RC is great for a thrower.  I got over 100 garg pieces of Ice making each Garg suit twice.

Build Jewels from 10SSI with 15HCI.  They are common and cheap unless I just made a buying run and bought the cheap ones.

Lets be honest here, we can ask and suggest all that we want here and aint going to happen!!!
The Devs focus now are 100% into the Coming Soon (2025) new Shard, seems to me that they gave up on the prodo shards, they cant fix 1 bug without breaking 20 others, they cant fix VS, they cant fix EJ Gen Chat spammers, so lets forget about all this current bugs and lets make a new shard and hope that everyone start to play, so we can merge all 20+ shards into 6'ish and hope for the best.

We players been asking the devs for years and years and years to address the current bugs and gave them ideas and all we hear is that will be on the next patch or soon or it is on the to do list.
Can we ask the devs to show us the current "To Do List" ? and an ETA for it?.

This topic is a perfect example, It is very hard to make a Garg suit, I think that Exodus is the only few places that drop some decent pieces, crafting garg pieces is a nightmare, convert existent human pieces into garg is another nightmare, some pieces work, some not, only few pieces facing some sort of direction and not other?? I mean why???

 

The toxic liches to the east of Tel Mur give decent drops.  Mages can harvest them with a reptile slayer pretty easily.  Without a reptile slayer it's a little more work but not much. They also provide what you need to complete Tel Mur hunter's quest and the Tel Mur library quests.  Forgot the names of the quest givers but they are not hard to find.  Be prepared to cure poison, they have a pretty poisonous bite. 

Pawain said:

When you have a group of Throwing Gargs, they do a lot of damage and fight from a distance.

I got the correct weapons for Ice. My thrower did as well as he was Melle toon. Since they just had Anat, Tac,weapon skill. Neither could kill the 3 top paragons.  Distance toons need more SSI.  I think it is a fair trade off.  Learn how to play the build. A RC is great for a thrower.  I got over 100 garg pieces of Ice making each Garg suit twice.

Build Jewels from 10SSI with 15HCI.  They are common and cheap unless I just made a buying run and bought the cheap ones.

Why are they preferred over an archer is I guess what I'm asking?

Xris said:

Why are they preferred over an archer is I guess what I'm asking?

Starting a Garg thrower is easy, no mount needed, no ammunition needed. They are ranged, and can stand away from EM event bosses, so stand an equal chance of getting something.

Due to this, a lot of cross sharders, build them on every shard, to take part in all events. They are quick to knock up to an ok standard.

But when you try to get to middle game, to play one properly on your own shard, or even end game, it is much harder, then you notice the lack of equipment and options for them.

Xris said:

Why are they preferred over an archer is I guess what I'm asking?

Their range with a soul glaive is 1 higher than any bow, and glaives don't run out of arrows.

Xris said:

Pawain said:

When you have a group of Throwing Gargs, they do a lot of damage and fight from a distance.

I got the correct weapons for Ice. My thrower did as well as he was Melle toon. Since they just had Anat, Tac,weapon skill. Neither could kill the 3 top paragons.  Distance toons need more SSI.  I think it is a fair trade off.  Learn how to play the build. A RC is great for a thrower.  I got over 100 garg pieces of Ice making each Garg suit twice.

Build Jewels from 10SSI with 15HCI.  They are common and cheap unless I just made a buying run and bought the cheap ones.

Why are they preferred over an archer is I guess what I'm asking?

Yes range and no arrows make a difference.  Souls Glaives are like a Composite Bow you need 60 SSI and 210 Stamina for make max speed like the composite.

The weapon is metal so you don't need a fletching tool to reforge.

So once you get the suit the normal hits are nice.  If you use slayers you can deal high fast damage when using 2 or more throwers. 

Hardest to find really nice necklace and earrings.  The other pieces are easy to find and vendors they sell garg armor cheaper than others.

Pawain said:

Xris said:

Pawain said:

When you have a group of Throwing Gargs, they do a lot of damage and fight from a distance.

I got the correct weapons for Ice. My thrower did as well as he was Melle toon. Since they just had Anat, Tac,weapon skill. Neither could kill the 3 top paragons.  Distance toons need more SSI.  I think it is a fair trade off.  Learn how to play the build. A RC is great for a thrower.  I got over 100 garg pieces of Ice making each Garg suit twice.

Build Jewels from 10SSI with 15HCI.  They are common and cheap unless I just made a buying run and bought the cheap ones.

Why are they preferred over an archer is I guess what I'm asking?

Yes range and no arrows make a difference.  Souls Glaives are like a Composite Bow you need 60 SSI and 210 Stamina for make max speed like the composite.

The weapon is metal so you don't need a fletching tool to reforge.

So once you get the suit the normal hits are nice.  If you use slayers you can deal high fast damage when using 2 or more throwers. 

Hardest to find really nice necklace and earrings.  The other pieces are easy to find and vendors they sell garg armor cheaper than others.

It's actually only 55 SSI and 210 Stamina (unless something has changed recently). I have a Garg thrower/Tamer that uses soul glaives. She started out life as an archer/tamer. But I made her a gargoyle because I can also move at mounted speed, with a 5 slot pet fighting. 

Looking over the notes from the Treasures rewards thread I don’t recall any specific gargie stuff, and I’m not saying we’re going to Ter Mur buuuut might make sense to have some gargie stuff.  Especially after we meet, well... You’ll see. 🙂

KHAN said:

It's actually only 55 SSI and 210 Stamina (unless something has changed recently). I have a Garg thrower/Tamer that uses soul glaives. She started out life as an archer/tamer. But I made her a gargoyle because I can also move at mounted speed, with a 5 slot pet fighting. 

Oops I didn't check lower SSI, that's what I have.

55 SSI 210 gets max speed for composite and Sould glaive.

211 Stamina.

Myself and my GM have gone round in circles on whether it is 210 or 211, I've given in, and agree with him it's 211. 🙂

Kyronix said:

Looking over the notes from the Treasures rewards thread I don’t recall any specific gargie stuff, and I’m not saying we’re going to Ter Mur buuuut might make sense to have some gargie stuff.  Especially after we meet, well... You’ll see. 🙂

Thanks for this @kyronix.

The SSI Epaulettes you released in Treasures of Deceit went down a storm! They were an item that just didn't exist all round, but especially helped Gargoyles towards that magic 55 Dex 211 Stam figure they are all after to make the max out of their soul glaives.

On the warrior side, I have a 3 parry throwers who are ok to get close up- who love boomerangs for the speed and a non parry thrower, which loves soul glaives especially for their specials.

And that's an issue, there are only 2 types of usable weapon (for pvm, and 1 for pvp). The cyclone is hardly usable, as it's specials don't achieve anything much, it's range is neither one nor the other.

In the thread requesting ideas for future rewards, I listed 2 types of shield/or mage off-hand. The warrior version of that shield, would be a dream piece of equipment for my 3 Parry Gargoyles (mine and my 2 sons), usable in pvp and pvm. The mage version of that shield, I have at least 3 elf pvp mages begging for that shield, and 1 gargoyle parry mystic.

But truthfully, me with my Parry Gargs, is quite an unusual build I think, but I'm loving it, the speed and durability are fun. I'm looking for toughness on top of max throwing speed (which is easier to attain with a boomerang), as well as a selection of boomerang weapons.

Most Throwers don't have parry, and go with Chivalry maybe, and just want a decent selection of soul glaives, and the ability to throw them fast enough.

Also like Pawain said - Necklace and Earrings, they are hard to get good pieces for.

Me personally - I have real issues with lootable rings and bracelets, I suggested a ring and bracelet set for casters and warriors in that thread, that again would fix half my issues, that all my characters would like. They would be a bit like the clean-up reward set, novo blue/etoile whatever - but they are geared for pvm with the high luck. Mine would be more pvp biased I guess.

Pawain said:

Hardest to find really nice necklace and earrings.  The other pieces are easy to find and vendors they sell garg armor cheaper than others.

My Throwers use the Garg Earring variation of the Mace & Shields from Blackthorn's Dungeon. Good necklaces are definitely a problem though.

PlayerSkillFTW said:

My Throwers use the Garg Earring variation of the Mace & Shields from Blackthorn's Dungeon. Good necklaces are definitely a problem though.

Stygian Dragon drops a buttload of Gargoyle Gear, but you gotta have some good Luck for them to be Legendary Artifacts. Medusa as well.

When my guild does them for a hunt, i let everyone hit my Luck Sculpture so that it boosts the loot. Stygian Dragon is super easy to get keys for, and so long as he sticks to my Frost Mite, we can kill him within 1-2 minutes. If he runs all over though, he's a nightmare.

Agreed on the Mace and Shield, I use these.

We as a guild do Medusa a lot (up to 20 runs a session), I've never seen any decent gargoyle gear, or legendries on her. Stygian Dragon I cannot comment on, as I rarely do it.

Most Garg gear comes from Roof I guess, in my experience.

For me though, it would be nice to see some other avenues of obtaining gear, and a broader range of gear to find.

Cookie said:

For me though, it would be nice to see some other avenues of obtaining gear, and a broader range of gear to find.

To find good Gargoyle armour and jewellery in Treasure Maps and Fishing Chests, and not just in Ter Mur, could be a good place to start from, to my opinion....

Ultimately, Gargoyles and the approach to races is flawed by design. It's a design that creates debt:

1. For every useful reward, there needs to be a Gargoyle version.
2. For new content, Gargoyle loot needs to be considered.
3. For old content, we have to ask whether a Gargoyle can benefit from it and, if not, whether it's worth the time to make it so.

So we can say 'add throwing weapons and Gargoyle gear to X content,' but it doesn't solve the real problem.

They should just remove all race restrictions from gear and skills and make all gear types available everywhere. Or make all gear alterable - perhaps applying some sort of conversion penalty to bows to account for the fact that it's now one-handed.