Thoughts on Thieves

A lot of people have chimed over the years about how to improve thieving in UO, but a comment from the devs a few months ago expressing interest in revisiting the profession got me thinking about ways to make stealing/snooping more relevant.

Most conversations center around systems to resurrect player theft, but those days are long gone.  The introduction of stealable items over ten years ago tried to make things more interesting (https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/pvm-player-versus-monster/stealing-from-monsters/), but it's pretty lame. Instead, we can re-imagine the profession as essentially a support class.

Just as we have Ninja and Samurai spell books, we can conceive of a spell book which grants the thief certain abilities. Let's just call this the "Thief Book".

The Thief Book grants four abilities: Pilfer, Siphon, Sabotage, and Ransack. For each ability:

1. When active, modifies your next usage of the Stealing skill. Only one can be active at a time (like any Special Move, for example). Stealing deactivates the ability.
2. The potency of the effects are modified by Snooping, similar to Evaluating Intelligence for Magery or Focus/Imbuing for Mysticism.
3. As the player's Stealing skill increases, the abilities unlock more options, similar to how Animal Form works.

Given #1, I believe everything is balanced by virtue of the fact that the skill delay between Stealing attempts would still apply.

Pilfer modifies your usage of the Stealing skill to steal specific items. Pilfering an item creates a "virtual" version of the item which is consumed immediately by the thief. If the target is a player and that player actually has the item in their possessions, then a certain portion of that item is stolen using existing calculations without needing to snoop through the player's bags and target it specifically. Examples of pilferable items listed below, each unlocking once the thief's Stealing skill reaches a certain threshold:

• Bandages: Applies a virtual bandage. Potency increases with Stealing, Snooping, and Healing.
• Fire horn: Launches a fireball from a virtual fire horn. Potency increases with Stealing, Snooping, and barding skills.
• Refresh Potion. Uses a virtual refresh potion. Potency increases with Stealing, Snooping, and Alchemy.
• Conflagration Potion. Uses a virtual conflagration potion. Potency increases with Stealing, Snooping, and Alchemy.
• Fukiya dart. Fires a virtual dart from a Fukiya. Hit chance increases with Stealing, Snooping, and Ninjitsu.
• Egg bomb. Uses a virtual egg bomb. Hiding success increases with Stealing, Snooping, Ninjitsu, and Hiding.
• Food. Consume a random virtual food item if the player isn't full.
• ...others?

These are just a few I could think of, some of which are just for flavor, but you get the idea. Mechanically, these "virtual" items allow the thief to circumvent skill and inventory requirements for consumables, augmenting their potency primarily via Stealing and Snooping, in addition to the consumable's normal relevant skill. For example, pilfering a bandage at max Stealing and Snooping might apply the bandage as if you had, say, 80 Healing skill, but this potency could be further increased by just a minimal amount of Healing skill.

Siphon modifies your usage of the Stealing skill to decrease the target's attributes and apply them to yourself. Stealing an attribute does not go above that attribute's cap. Stealing the same attribute multiple times does not stack the effect. Duration of the effect is modified by Stealing and Snooping. Perhaps only a certain number of attributes can be siphoned at any one time. Stealable attributes are listed below, each unlocking as the thief's Stealing skill increases:

• Str/Dex/Int
• DCI
• HCI
• Luck
• LMC
• SSI
• ...others?

Sabotage modifies your usage of the Stealing skill to decrease the target's skills and apply them to yourself. All non-crafting, non-gathering skills can be sabotaged. Sabotaging skills does not allow you to go over the 120 cap. Stealing the same skill multiple times does not stack the effect. Duration of the effect is modified by Stealing and Snooping. Mechanically, sabotaging a skill is sort of like Discordance except it targets a specific skill and has no consideration for barding difficulty. Perhaps only a certain number skills can be sabotaged at any one time.

Ransack modifies your usage of the Stealing skill to steal specific types of resources. If the target is a player and that player has the type in their possession, then a random resource of that type is stolen using existing calculations without needing to snoop through their belongings. If the target is a monster, quality, quantity, and difficulty increases with the monster's fame level. Each resource type may only be stolen once per monster. Stealing and Snooping increase the effect of ransacking. Stealable resources listed below, each unlocking as the player's Stealing increases:

• Gold.
• Ore. Further modified by Mining.
• Wood. Further modified by Lumberjacking.
• Reagents. Further modified by Alchemy.
• Imbuing ingredients. Further modified by Imbuing.
• ...others?

Mastery: Below are some ideas for how the Mastery system might complement these abilities:

• Passive: Stealing and snooping range increases 1 tile per mastery level.
• Ability 1: A portion of siphoned attributes and sabotaged skills are applied to party members in a given radius. The portion and area of effect increase with Stealing, Snooping, and mastery level.
• Ability 2: Stealing from a state of hiding increases the potency of all stealing abilities for the next X seconds. Duration increases with Stealing, Snooping, Hiding, Stealth, and mastery levels.
  
• Ability 3: Pilfered items can be thrown to a target with increased potency. If beneficial acts can be applied to the target, then beneficial items are consumed immediately by the target. Negative items impact the target and flag you accordingly. Range and potency increase with Stealing, Snooping, and mastery level.
  

Anyway, I'm sure there are some balance considerations at play here. The gist of this idea is to gamify thieving mechanics further so that they provide some degree of utility. In the context of post-AoS UO, there is very little room for meaningful player-to-player thieving interaction, and simply giving thieves some new stealable to focus on just won't cut it.

Hmm, I like the thought and effort you have put into it, and yes, something for thieves would be amazing.

I get that you are trying to gamify their mechanics further, but I would potentially suggest they have enough, it could just be used more, or have more content designed for it?

For example, you say that creating more stealables won't do it - well, it may? Thieves certainly could use something more to steal, there is very little for them in a way (certainly Gear-wise), but for sake of argument, lets say you are right on that - maybe potentially some sort of TombRaider or Indiana Jones style Gauntlet could be made for them? Or even create content in existing dungeons.

Doom is the last dungeon that attempted such a thing, and in general it was a success. I think Stygian Abyss had something, but tbh, I've never tried it, the rewards are only Deco. The problem with Deco, is it reaches saturation point very fast in the game, then no-one is interested anymore, so the thief becomes forgotten.

I'd say the failure of current thief systems, is the unavailability of the items to steal. For example in Doom, and I'm guessing here, but some artifacts spawn once every 30 days? That's not exactly gamer condusive to your average player is it. So Doom had decent concepts, but made the end result unattainable to pretty much every player, except the one guy who knows the spawn pattern.

So decent Gear items, some decent content, is what I personally would ask for.

My only worry with your gamify concept, is that it's great that you gamify it, and add more utility, but what additional content do thieves get to do?

I guess I'm talking about a pvm rogue, you are talking about a thief with player interactions, that's a hard one I guess, is it in Trammel, or Felucca, does it get pvp style abilities ? I'd ask the question with your concept, what is its endgame? Or is it that I'm tired, and not comprehending the endgame well enough. 🙂

Maybe actually allow thieves to steal a certain amount of gold off a character in Felucca? Like 10,000 to 50,000 or something. A greater amount to be noticeable, like Insurance values maybe.

https://community.stratics.com/threads/thief-suggestions.418396/

Cookie said:

Hmm, I like the thought and effort you have put into it, and yes, something for thieves would be amazing.

I get that you are trying to gamify their mechanics further, but I would potentially suggest they have enough, it could just be used more, or have more content designed for it?

For example, you say that creating more stealables won't do it - well, it may? Thieves certainly could use something more to steal, there is very little for them in a way (certainly Gear-wise), but for sake of argument, lets say you are right on that - maybe potentially some sort of TombRaider or Indiana Jones style Gauntlet could be made for them? Or even create content in existing dungeons.

Doom is the last dungeon that attempted such a thing, and in general it was a success. I think Stygian Abyss had something, but tbh, I've never tried it, the rewards are only Deco. The problem with Deco, is it reaches saturation point very fast in the game, then no-one is interested anymore, so the thief becomes forgotten.

I'd say the failure of current thief systems, is the unavailability of the items to steal. For example in Doom, and I'm guessing here, but some artifacts spawn once every 30 days? That's not exactly gamer condusive to your average player is it. So Doom had decent concepts, but made the end result unattainable to pretty much every player, except the one guy who knows the spawn pattern.

So decent Gear items, some decent content, is what I personally would ask for.

My only worry with your gamify concept, is that it's great that you gamify it, and add more utility, but what additional content do thieves get to do?

I guess I'm talking about a pvm rogue, you are talking about a thief with player interactions, that's a hard one I guess, is it in Trammel, or Felucca, does it get pvp style abilities ? I'd ask the question with your concept, what is its endgame? Or is it that I'm tired, and not comprehending the endgame well enough. 🙂

Maybe actually allow thieves to steal a certain amount of gold off a character in Felucca? Like 10,000 to 50,000 or something. A greater amount to be noticeable, like Insurance values maybe.

The idea is that Thieves would have skills that are helpful for all content and not just content specifically made for them. Put another way, the Stealing and Snooping skills would have a purpose on a variety of templates because their function would be broader than just "take X item".

I'm not super spun up on dungeon stealables, but I think you're understanding of them is correct. However, I do think focusing on specific stealables or designing specific dungeons for thieves is the wrong way to go because those things don't have a long lifespan and aren't far reaching enough.

Now, many skills are designed to be used for very specific content. Treasure hunting skills, fishing... those come to mind. But in those cases, the content is far-reaching and rewarding enough to have a lifespan: You're not always treasure hunting or fishing in the same spot, you're not always getting the same items, etc.

Hey, my problem with making templates too broad, is you get Sampires.

Regarding the lifespan of content, it really depends on the back-end reward, and how well it integrates into the game, and the fun content of doing it.

Powerscrolls and Stat scrolls for pvpers and champ spawn hunters have worked for years.

Primers didn't work so well, because they were placed everywhere, and hit saturation point very fast.

Deco items for thieves hit saturation point very fast. Whereas well designed Artifacts gear do not. Take Crimson Cincture, Tangle. All characters - old and new, need them. On that note however, there are a huge amount of artifacts I would like to update, which would bring so much content back - I need to write my bible on the top post one day re artifacts.

The old Hag quests... well, what to say. The content is obsolete maybe.

Doom, Stygian Abyss, Underworld, Wrong, Exodus, Kotl, Underwater Boss and others have decent thief content, it has just been left to get obsolete in terms of up to date rewards. I'd even suggest in so many cases in the game, you could just take old systems, update their rewards a bit - even VvV and make them a success. Half of players at least, do not play for Deco, they play to gear their characters to do more content, and there are huge gaping holes when it comes to finding useful gear, or gear with the properties and styles players want, I could go on forever.

Dungeon Chests exist everywhere and are very cool, but there is absolutely nothing worthwhile in them except say 300 gold - how forgotten is that? 20 years forgotten is what they are.

My feeling is, the content exists in UO, it just needs a refresh. We don't need to design entire new systems quite often.

You want content that is regularly doable, that is fun, that has rewards that have a point and integrate into the game. And do not hit saturation point instantly.

Edit - I'm going to add an edit in agreement with Popps here. Dynamic Events could have thief content. A bit like the Khaldun event did - I played that and enjoyed that also, the statue deco rewards were phenominal artwise, pee'd off I was never able to find one.

While I realise this thread is geared more towards pvp thieves, as a strictly pvm thief my input would be
These ideas, to me, add needless complication. Simple is better.
From my, pvm, point of view the content I've enjoyed most is stealing in Exodus from Zealots and finding hidden boxes. I like that there are items I can get there that are useful even if I don't want the Exodus keys.
Next to that finding boxes in Khaldun was good. Stealing from monsters is fun, but few are interested in using the balms & potions, they would be more useful if they stacked. 
Least fun, to me, is stealing arties in static locations, Perhaps a vaguer location and more effort to find it would help? eg - there's an arti in this room somewhere, but you need detect to find it before you can steal it? If the spawn spot was within an area, rather than at a specific point, it might also combat the script thieves and give the genuine players more chance of getting the rarer items.

Petra_Fyde said:

While I realise this thread is geared more towards pvp thieves, as a strictly pvm thief my input would be
These ideas, to me, add needless complication. Simple is better.
From my, pvm, point of view the content I've enjoyed most is stealing in Exodus from Zealots and finding hidden boxes. I like that there are items I can get there that are useful even if I don't want the Exodus keys.
Next to that finding boxes in Khaldun was good. Stealing from monsters is fun, but few are interested in using the balms & potions, they would be more useful if they stacked. 
Least fun, to me, is stealing arties in static locations, Perhaps a vaguer location and more effort to find it would help? eg - there's an arti in this room somewhere, but you need detect to find it before you can steal it? If the spawn spot was within an area, rather than at a specific point, it might also combat the script thieves and give the genuine players more chance of getting the rarer items.

I play my thief more as a pvm thief, and completely agree, especially the point re simple.

Regarding the stealing from monster point where you say few are interested in the balms, not completely true - our pvp team would absolutely love - mana draught, seed of life, balm of stats, and possibly even gem of salvation, and pvmers would like some of the other stuff. The 2 issues are - 1, as you note, they don't stack for storing purposes, and 2. they are actually too hard to obtain for any normal player. You cannot build any sort of stock of them, so they become too valuable or limited to actually be able to use.

Yes I do agree, some sort of shaking up the Arties would be useful, maybe in Dungeon chests with a rare drop rate?

Re a pvp thief, there are so many less players in Felucca than there were, so chances of player interaction are less, and quite frankly, players would be screaming about griefing very fast - see shatter potions, thieves would be used in a similer way, it wouldn't bother me, but I can't see it taking off. So any player interaction needs to be a bit more thought out.

My opinion about thieves for PvP is that the stealing skill isn't going to be like a weapon skill where you go look for confrontation but rather sit in the shadows and look to make a grab-n-dash.

That was always the best part for me 15-20 years ago; the thrill of taking something and running away with it.

That said, @Cookie you are 100% right that with so little people in Fel these days the PvP thief of any sort seems like a thing of the past.

Why not allow "stealing" of blessed/insured items for pvp, once "stolen", a 45 second timer starts before the item can be re equiped/used.

if you want to steal from players make a thief on Siege Perilous - no insurance. It's similar to the old days...

Lots of well thought out ideas for sure but i have to agree with Petra to keep it simple. PvP thieves have long been dead on every shard but Siege and there's no coming back. The best you can hope for is that someone stands still after completing a champ spawn. Even then, the moon and stars have to align where they roll something good and you get your shot at grabbing it.

We do however need more worthwhile items to steal. From mobs to chests to town boxes. It really doesn't have to be much. A simple low point SOT, SOA maybe a 105ps and a chance at some gear would really ramp up the profession a lot. 

You can run trade quests thru a moongate with a brand new character with items bought from a NPC and get better rewards than a scrolled thief and that doesn't exactly sit well with me. 

Max_Blackoak said:

if you want to steal from players make a thief on Siege Perilous - no insurance. It's similar to the old days...

I would doubt, considering from what I hear that Siege is pretty much a deserted Shard, and that, precisely since it has no insurance and thus with most of the few players still insisting on playing there having pretty much junk on themselves which they do not care if they loose, that it would be much fruitful, at least considered the time invested vs. the benefits gathered, for a thief there....

Meaning, at least to my viewing, that I would imagine that the average Thief would get there pretty bored, having a hard time to find targets or anything of some value to steal on that Shard...

But, for those not bothered by spending a large chunk of their playing time for very little outcome (or pursuing that once in a blue moon good steal), I guess it could be OK.... as it is said, different players like playing differently.... to each one his or her own, I guess.......

Are there any Siege thieves who can speak on how it is for them ? 

I could see some form of a support class thief who, when in a group fighting a boss with high HP and resists, sneaks potions into the target's bag causing damage, poison and debuff. 

McDougle said:

Are there any Siege thieves who can speak on how it is for them ? 

Nope.

@Stinky_Pete - care to weigh in on how Siege thieving is? I think you enjoy it quite a bit no?

keven2002 said:

@ Stinky_Pete - care to weigh in on how Siege thieving is? I think you enjoy it quite a bit no?

To be honest, I really don't care to talk about it here. It's a completely different experience than what most players are used to. I would prefer that most players not talk about things that they don't know anything about and stick to crying about not getting their Christmas presents.  

the first rule of thieves club...

After rethinking my position on this, There is nothing I can say that hasn't already been said by the great Chad Sexington.

http://uothief.com/faq/7pt1.html

@Stinky_Pete - Good post and one line I think is worth pointing from the link:

"The biggest differences between production shards and Siege Perilous have less to do with mechanical differences and more to do with the interaction among players that has been lost on production shards over the years"

I think Siege is probably the best place for a thief to get the most use.

popps said:

Max_Blackoak said:

if you want to steal from players make a thief on Siege Perilous - no insurance. It's similar to the old days...

I would doubt, considering from what I hear that Siege is pretty much a deserted Shard, and that, precisely since it has no insurance and thus with most of the few players still insisting on playing there having pretty much junk on themselves which they do not care if they loose, that it would be much fruitful, at least considered the time invested vs. the benefits gathered, for a thief there....

Meaning, at least to my viewing, that I would imagine that the average Thief would get there pretty bored, having a hard time to find targets or anything of some value to steal on that Shard...

But, for those not bothered by spending a large chunk of their playing time for very little outcome (or pursuing that once in a blue moon good steal), I guess it could be OK.... as it is said, different players like playing differently.... to each one his or her own, I guess.......

How about instead of quoting hearsay you stick to things you actually know about?

Siege is far from dead, you just don't have banksitters like on prodo shards and guess why that is? Correct it's because thieves will steal your stuff when you sit at the bank.

While some people do run around in "junk" as you call it, many people don't. PvPers especially don't.

There are many thieves on Siege, some good at their profession, some not so good. They all seem to have fun and find enough people to steal from or else why would they play on Siege? Siege offers them a lot more than stealing from monsters and crates like prodo does.

Max_Blackoak said:

How about instead of quoting hearsay you stick to things you actually know about?

Siege is far from dead, you just don't have banksitters like on prodo shards and guess why that is? Correct it's because thieves will steal your stuff when you sit at the bank.

While some people do run around in "junk" as you call it, many people don't. PvPers especially don't.

There are many thieves on Siege, some good at their profession, some not so good. They all seem to have fun and find enough people to steal from or else why would they play on Siege? Siege offers them a lot more than stealing from monsters and crates like prodo does.

Maxi and I don't agree on a lot of things, but he speaks the truth here.

Max_Blackoak said:

popps said:

Max_Blackoak said:

if you want to steal from players make a thief on Siege Perilous - no insurance. It's similar to the old days...

I would doubt, considering from what I hear that Siege is pretty much a deserted Shard, and that, precisely since it has no insurance and thus with most of the few players still insisting on playing there having pretty much junk on themselves which they do not care if they loose, that it would be much fruitful, at least considered the time invested vs. the benefits gathered, for a thief there....

Meaning, at least to my viewing, that I would imagine that the average Thief would get there pretty bored, having a hard time to find targets or anything of some value to steal on that Shard...

But, for those not bothered by spending a large chunk of their playing time for very little outcome (or pursuing that once in a blue moon good steal), I guess it could be OK.... as it is said, different players like playing differently.... to each one his or her own, I guess.......

How about instead of quoting hearsay you stick to things you actually know about?

Siege is far from dead, you just don't have banksitters like on prodo shards and guess why that is? Correct it's because thieves will steal your stuff when you sit at the bank.

While some people do run around in "junk" as you call it, many people don't. PvPers especially don't.

The way I am reading your reply, is that it just confirms my thoughts then....

That is, that on Siege it is hard to actually find players to steal from.... and while there may be players who actually have on them something worth to be stolen, the fact that there is also players who get around with "junk" results, inevitably, in a reduced number of "targets" to steal from, something worth the effort...

That is, that the time it might take for a thief on Siege to get something worth the trouble, might be significant.... I am not saying that to some that long long wait and low chances might not be worth their playing time, I am sure that there do are players who might enjoy that slow rate of good steals, I am just saying that for other players, the long waits, scarcity of players to steal something worth their trouble from, might instead not be worth their time in the game.

I guess that, different players enjoy spending their entertainment time, differently....

it's not hard to find players if you know where to look for them. They're just not sitting at the bank.
The words "I guess" probably describes the extent of your knowledge about Siege Perilous best. Could you please go back to talking about Trammel and normal shards?

Well, a great way to improve thief usage would be to make it a viable part of pvm party make-up. 

Kaz said:

Well, a great way to improve thief usage would be to make it a viable part of pvm party make-up. 

I think you would need to think beyond just stealing and snooping. 

Think about the roles that rogues play in the DnD landscape. 

Maybe you need a thief in order detect certain mechanisms (traps, secret doors, etc) in order to progress through an encounter?
maybe you need to be able to stealth through a room or area in order to flip a switch?
Maybe theres traps that only a thief can disable, through whatever mechanism (stealing an idol, the remove trap skill providing the check calc etc). 

I think that thinking of the class itself rather than just the fix stealing mindset. 

I think that is what the opener is attempting, but, it just seemed a bit complicated, and a bit of a random way of doing it, I could not see how it would fit in, or give it endgame mechanisms.

I fail to understand why everyone wants to bork a fun PvP class by trying to force it to be a PvM class. Once you start messing with it, you're eventually going to mess it up. It's fine the way it is. My guildmates and I use our thieves more than any other template. It takes some dedication to play it successfully but it is basically the last bit of magic the game has left in it and Trammies want to squeeze it out by adding unnecessary complications and spreadsheets full of skills just so they don't have to spend the time required to be successful. Go back to playing your tamers and sampires if you want complicated spreadsheets devoid of fun and let the thieves do what they do.

Stinky_Pete said:

I fail to understand why everyone wants to bork a fun PvP class by trying to force it to be a PvM class.

Agree and not at the same time. It's a different world on Siege. If they could just add in something little for a thief to do comparable to a thunter it would be fantastic for those of us who prefer prodo. 

They could easily add modern worthwhile items to be stolen from mobs, npcs and chests-town boxes without altering any template.

I don't know about other shards but LS has a returning thief that has been bothering Spawners for a few weeks.  Sounds like he has gotten quite a few scrolls.