Players are being driven out of PvP.

By the amount of Macros in and speed of Enhanced Client v Classic, By the new(ish) *** Classic Client with its new "features" {and scripts}, and to a smaller extent **** for Classic Client and its "features" {and scripts}.

It has been bearable for quite a long while as not so many used them, but now, too many are using them, and making it unplayable for the rest.

@kyronix and @bleak - there are 2 solutions, please enact one.

1. Disable all of these clients from pvp, approved and unapproved clients, they all ruin it or;

2. Bring Classic Client, the original and main PvP client up to their level, by including their features in the game please.

Most players enjoy Classic Client far more for pvp, and it is now hitting critical mass in terms of imbalance. The fun is just going fast.

Please do something about it. If you start losing pvpers, you will lose a lot of the game.

Thank you.

Cookie said:

By the amount of Macros in and speed of Enhanced Client v Classic, By the new(ish) *** Classic Client with its new "features" {and scripts}, and to a smaller extent **** for Classic Client and its "features" {and scripts}.

It has been bearable for quite a long while as not so many used them, but now, too many are using them, and making it unplayable for the rest.

@ kyronix and @ bleak - there are 2 solutions, please enact one.

1. Disable all of these clients from pvp, approved and unapproved clients, they all ruin it or;

2. Bring Classic Client, the original and main PvP client up to their level, by including their features in the game please.

Most players enjoy Classic Client far more for pvp, and it is now hitting critical mass in terms of imbalance. The fun is just going fast.

Please do something about it. If you start losing pvpers, you will lose a lot of the game.

Thank you.

+1000

Speaking FACTS!

CovenantX said:

Agreed.

I prefer # 1.

My reason:: # 2. is closer to the game playing itself rather than the player playing the game.  this is the problem with UO pvp now, far outweighs any 'in-game' balancing issues to date.

Option 1 was my hardcore option. 🙂

I fully agree with you, but it's a bit like when I say, delete Trammel, delete Sampires - ultimately yes it's the best thing for the game, but they are never going to do it.

I agree.
Something needs to be done. The inaction on cheats is such a taint on the game.

Cookie said:

Please do something about it. If you start losing pvpers, you will lose a lot of the game.

Thank you.

Lost me 2 yrs ago. Got tired of waiting for the “soon” to be released updated list of approved programs and no action taken on those that chose to use unapproved programs. Plenty of games much more balanced out there... so I now play them. 

I’d love to come back but sadly not in the games current state. 

The team is completely lost on this since they dont play the game.  You can literally pick any video or screenshot out of any discord and they are all 100% illegal gameplay.  You may ask yourself why they need such cheats?  Its simple they are horrid players without it.  You could say they have the timing of a guy who walks into a funeral while cranking AC/DC Highway to hell.  LOL

I agree 100% with everything in this post

I disagree with the points about the EC, I do agree with the rest,

Cookie said:

I fully agree with you, but it's a bit like when I say, delete Trammel, 

Siege is the place for thee

Stock classic client is unplayable at 14 FPS.  EC has a built in scripting engine.  99.9% of the player base doesn't understand this and exactly what is really possible with the LUA script engine in EC.  Yes, it can do anything these other clients you guys complain about can do. People have already done it, they just don't share it.

People in here complaining about other clients have literally posted screenshots of themselves using the alternate clients in various discords.  

You want to make the default CC normalized?

If you don't have the labor force to actually do the needed work, capitalize on the hard work other people have done:

1.) All of the third party client options have toolsets built in for server admins to enable/disable certain features offered.  Take advantage and just do the client/server 'handshake' and set the terms.

If you have the man hours to put towards it, make changes to the existing client and then completely block the use of the other clients.

1.) Modify the client to allow up to 144 FPS.

2.) Provide a built in scripting engine.  The ability to bind pots to hotkey was about the least you could possibly do.  Increase the options for user defined object use (by type, graphic, color, etc).  No one is asking for insane options, just the ability to bind consumeables and objects to keys.

3.) Build in the EC movement into your classic client, the part where you slingshot around an impassable object.  Right now EC moves instantly to the diagonal, where CC has to go to the adjacent tile, then forward one tile.  

@Lynk where are you getting this 14 fps from?

Or let's say they worked with one, or two of these developers, and came out with another option. So you wouldn't have to dislike these programs, and instead reap the benefits of them, such as being able to set more than four weapon macros, I personally use, probably ten different bows. The programs you speak of don't have to be used for nefarious reasons I personally know many crafters who would have clicked their lives away without some form of program.

Cookie said:

By the amount of Macros in and speed of Enhanced Client v Classic, By the new(ish) ** Classic Client with its new "features" {and scripts}, and to a smaller extent *** for Classic Client and its "features" {and scripts}.

It has been bearable for quite a long while as not so many used them, but now, too many are using them, and making it unplayable for the rest.

@ kyronix and @ bleak - there are 2 solutions, please enact one.

1. Disable all of these clients from pvp, approved and unapproved clients, they all ruin it or;

2. Bring Classic Client, the original and main PvP client up to their level, by including their features in the game please.

Most players enjoy Classic Client far more for pvp, and it is now hitting critical mass in terms of imbalance. The fun is just going fast.

Please do something about it. If you start losing pvpers, you will lose a lot of the game.

Thank you.

 Other than people wall scripting, I really don't see much by way of cheating. That's annoying. Maybe the instant apple and cure, but that instant apple will get them killed by a smart opponent. What are people doing to drive you away? I'm just curious, not trying to imply it doesn't happen. I get that in ec, you don't rubber band off of stairs. Or so I'm told idk I dislike ec and they really are much faster.

I've spoken to many people who still play in CC and refuse to play in EC.  Almost 100% of the time the reason is "we don't like how it looks"

If you can't bring CC up to EC in terms of features, then give EC users an option to change the game to look like CC - meaning CC textures and player character designs into EC.

Would that not satisfy every CC player and convince them to switch to using EC only?

sibble said:

I've spoken to many people who still play in CC and refuse to play in EC.  Almost 100% of the time the reason is "we don't like how it looks"

If you can't bring CC up to EC in terms of features, then give EC users an option to change the game to look like CC - meaning CC textures and player character designs into EC.

Would that not satisfy every CC player and convince them to switch to using EC only?

This has been asked ever since the EC came out and the silence is deafening

its not just the way it looks its the whole set up unless you made it ec that looks like ec and has the same functions no way

LMAO  It is all about the way it looks, maybe you should read  EC (Enhanced Client) with the option to use Classic Graphics

There is no point in turning this thread into a debate on Classic vs Enhanced client.

It is just a classic example of the way the player base is, it is %100 their way or it is totally broken and unfixable.  If as the OP says that EVERYBODY is being driven out of what they now call PvP then why the hell is it still going on Atl.  Nobody is being driven out of PvP and I always thought that the reason everybody gave for the CC is because they were using cheat programs for PvP and that the EC could not be scripted but isn't that the OPs main point is that the EC IS being scripted and the only way the CC users can keep up is to cheat and use 3rd party programs.

As an update - the 3 fixes to Bane Dragons appear to have helped a bit.

I know a lot of pvpers, and I know so many who have quit, taking a break etc etc.

1. Atlantic is still going strong, because it is sucking up the few remaining pvpers from every shard, Europa took a hit again from this.

2. Many of the pvpers remaining are said pvpers… It's becoming a run down to who can use the most programs, aside from EC users, who are the reason everyone else feels they have to.

Ultimately, the real problem is, the use of 2 clients in PvP. EC users should really have been put in their own pvp environment, and CC users in a separate one. Maybe. End of the day, EC runs, plays, feels, looks like a different game to UO.

The players being lost, are Classic Client users, who are the core of UO pvp. A lot of us have re-adapted again, which is what we do, so maybe we still continue ok - as I say, with the fixes to Banes, all the scripted bugged Bane users have vanished, taking some of the inbalance away.

Bilbo, with respect, I don't think you know what you are talking about on this one.

My point with EC, is it is naturally faster, with so much more in the way of macros etc - I am not saying they are cheating, but they are "forcing" many CC users to use 3rd party programs, to match the EC ability.

However, *** client has now come out, a new(ish) CC client (It's gaining traction now in that it is gaining wide-spread usage), which is now better than EC - in terms of looks, feel, abilities and speed, so now the EC users are complaining as well, they are now feeling what it was like to have been a CC user all this time. HOWEVER! The original CC users are screwed every direction. 🙂

Cookie said:

My point with EC, is it is naturally faster

I'm not adding to a "which client is better" debate. I'm addressing misleading information that was posted.

First off... what exactly do you mean by "faster" - if you're talking about framerate, then yes you can get a faster framerate by switching from a regular classic client to a 3rd party classic client.  If you're stating EC users can run faster than CC users, then that would be a false statement.

Secondly, comparing EC to the 3rd party classic client you're referring to as to which one is "better in terms of looks, feel, abilities and speed", is mostly a matter of opinion.  Again with the speed, I'm not sure what speed you're referring to but the server is going to process packets at the same rate it processes packets from any other client.

Lastly, what EC users are complaining about a 3rd party CC client?  I feel like you're just pulling this information from nowhere to help argue a point.  I haven't seen 1 EC user ever complain about and 3rd party classic client except for scripting automation which is out of the scope of this discussion.

Why you may think EC is faster
In CC, have you ever tried holding the right mouse button and circling around your character?  I'm talking about making your character standstill on 1 tile and spin around in circles.

Try the same thing in EC.  You'll notice you're completely unable to replicate what happens in CC.  Your character in EC will actually run in a circle.  I believe it's because there are extra character-turning animations in EC but I can't 100% confirm.

What I do know is, if your running and make a cut in CC your character doesn't turn fluidly.  In EC running and turning is very fluid and there is no pause to turn.

@sibble - Do you even pvp?

If you did, you would know what I'm talking about.

I'm not being sucked into a debate with another @popps kind of pvm guy, who knows nothing about the topic, then just wants to get into a semantics debate for the sheer hell of it.

I'm not going to discuss the semantics of how it happens, to the exact nth degree - and whether I have used the correct wording or not, the point is, it adds up to being faster when it counts. Yes it's exactly to do with what you said in your final paragraph. It also casts spells way faster.

Cookie said:

@ sibble - Do you even pvp?

If you did, you would know what I'm talking about.

I'm not being sucked into a debate with another @ popps kind of pvm guy, who knows nothing about the topic, then just wants to get into a semantics debate for the sheer hell of it.

I'm not going to discuss the semantics of how it happens, to the exact nth degree - and whether I have used the correct wording or not, the point is, it adds up to being faster when it counts. Yes it's exactly to do with what you said in your final paragraph. It also casts spells way faster.

Well, one would imagine that, if the interest was that to help PvP "gain" consensus (and players), then, the point of view of PvMers who do not find enjoyment in PvP as it is now, could be interesting and helpful....

Othewise, PvP would remain a "niche" gameplay, only interesting to "hard core" players....

Sure, it is a possibility, but not one that would be "financially rewarding"..... or, at least, not as much as it could be, if "more" players were to be gained from PvMers to try out PvP....

Unfortunately, though, it looks like that to PvPers, it is either "hard core", anything goes, or no PvP...

If they like it that way, with only a few players then wanting to get into it.... well, that's OK, I guess, what I do not understand though, is how it could then be interesting to Game Developers and Game Publishers.... I mean, it is a business after all and, if there is not enough players to pay the bills in PvP, I am not sure how it could interest much the Game Industry....

Infact, what usually ends up, at least to my understanding, is seeing for the same game, PvM Servers to get a lot of players who bring in the revenues, and then a PvP server that does not bring as many revenues, perhaps might even be at a loss, financially speaking, but is covered by the revenues brought by PvMers...

The problem is, though, that this way. to my opinion, the "divide" between PvMers and PvPers then remains, each one playing on their own server, and things never change.... and PvP never gains a wider audience of players...

Perhaps, if PvP changed in the way it handled players, being less "hardcore" and more "fair" fighting, more players might get to it, who knows.....

That is at least the way I see it.

@Cookie now you've done it!

On the topic of EC casting faster than CC: that only applies to very specific circumstances with preset targeting. Without preset targets EC is actually slower than CC. There was a stratics thread with video evidence of the difference in casting speed between the 2 clients - I'll post it if I can dig it up.
So it's not like EC have ALL the advantage and CC has none. It is very situational.

Ill take your point @max_blackoak and yes I'd be interested to see.

Yes, my point, was start to finish re casting on a specific target, not just one specific bit.

Again, yes I was generalising, on the understanding most people knew why, and the nitty gritty, I didn't want to be involved in another debate where all we are doing is arguing for hours over the precise definition of words.

And @popps - truthfully I don't need your opinion, there are very few people I will/need to listen to when it comes to PvP 🙂 I'm in a large active guild, and I pvp and pvm non-stop. We introduce so many new players to the game and pvp, that I know what they are all thinking - they tell me on a daily basis, and how they find it, I've been there myself, I feel it every day. It isn't easy I agree, there is so much that could be improved, but there are ways of introducing players to pvp in a positive way, I have brought my 2 sons into the game, and they are doing very well and loving it, but they had a whole guild behind them. I understand exactly how difficult it all is, and you will usually see me trying hard to improve the game for the newer players, not the elite.

@popps - my lack of patience actually is not at you, it's other so called pvpers who post about pvp in the way you do on certain topics, but I was using you as an example, I apologise for bringing you in like that. 🙂

Cookie said:

@ sibble - Do you even pvp?

If you did, you would know what I'm talking about.

 It also casts spells way faster.

Ya, I've been PVPing with EC since about 2010, prior to many people even touching the client (including PVMers).  So I'd say I have plenty of experience...

As long as you continue to post misinformation about EC I will continue to correct you.  No, EC does not "cast spells way faster".  EC allows you to send a target with your spell cast at the same time, saving the time it takes a CC user to pick their target and send it to the server.

Example:  My EC Greater Heal macro that has Greater Heal set to target my current target, if I hit it, I'm sending information to the server "cast greater heal and put it on this target" all in one packet.  In CC you don't have this option.  In CC, you tell the server "cast greater heal" and then "target something".

Maybe they would add this feature to CC if it was requested.  Instead, what everyone likes to do is cry about something EC has that CC doesn't and demand it be removed instead of requesting a way for it to be added to CC - much like how they implemented outfit switching in CC.

This isn't about semantics or misuse of words.

This is about your request for a change based on your misinformation.

You've posted misinformation about EC, made assumptions about the client, and assumptions about me.  There is no indication in this thread that would lead me to believe that you or anyone you know have used EC for PVP.

Your problem is you have an agenda as an EC user and are in denial, you are not correcting anything of mine, this is why I don't want to get involved, I've seen it all before.

I've pvp'd against EC since day 1, I've got many friends and enemies who have used EC since day 1, and we can all see, and they all say the same thing, it's so obvious, this is why I don't want to be arguing the toss out of semantics when you clearly have an agenda and are so wrong. We know the reasons, I don't need you to nit-pick each point.

All I'm doing, is pointing out the black and white. Don't be so upset and defensive about it.

I'm not saying you're cheating, I'm not saying you should not be allowed to use EC, I'm clearly stating the issues that UO pvp has, the use of 2 unequal clients for competitive play, which is the root of most of the issues. I've asked if they can be separated (I obviously don't expect that to happen - although I am saying with hindsight, maybe that was the best solution), one got rid of (I clearly don't expect that to happen), or them to be balanced (which is sort of what I'd like if possible, in any areas). The reason I believe it is more possible, is the **** client achieves a lot.

I'm not asking to nerf you, although of course it will feel like a nerf to your style of play, having CC users on an equal footing to EC users - without the need for 3rd party programs.

sibble said:

As long as you continue to post misinformation about EC I will continue to correct you.  No, EC does not "cast spells way faster".  EC allows you to send a target with your spell cast at the same time, saving the time it takes a CC user to pick their target and send it to the server.

Example:  My EC Greater Heal macro that has Greater Heal set to target my current target, if I hit it, I'm sending information to the server "cast greater heal and put it on this target" all in one packet.  In CC you don't have this option.  In CC, you tell the server "cast greater heal" and then "target something".

So therefore it is faster. Baseline, this is exactly what I said. I did say due to the macros EC has right from the beginning. You are not reading what I say, and you are going defensive, and trying to pull apart something that doesn't exist to pull apart.

I've clearly stated I'm talking very high level, I'm not interested in all the nitty gritty, because we all know it!! I 100% agree with the statement you just said, and it completely backs up everything I have posted to date, which is why we have now wasted about 5 posts going around in a circle we didn't need to do. I wish you would learn to read, and understand.

All I'm doing is correcting your misinformation.  Continue to make assumptions though that's what a lot of smart people do weirdchamp.  There's nothing about anything I've written in this thread that is being defensive.  I've stated several times that you are posting misinformation.  What don't you understand about this?

You said "EC casts way faster" - which is a false statement.  You can't seem to comprehend this.

You continue to cry because you want something changed but use misinformation to back your case up.

Try using accurate statements when attempting to make a point.

sibble said:

All I'm doing is correcting your misinformation.  Continue to make assumptions though that's what a lot of smart people do.

You continue to cry because you want something changed but use misinformation to back your case up.

You corrected my misinformation by clarifying what I posted? Interesting.

You proved EC is faster due to movement style, you proved EC spells are faster due to the macros - perfect, and tried to use that as an argument against me, when I meant that in the first place?

You made assumptions about what you believed I thought the definition of "faster" was, you built straw men, then knocked them down. The problem for you is, the argument you proved - was what I meant in the first place.

This really is the problem of forums, and talking with less experienced, less intelligent, defensive players who have an agenda.

I'm not crying. I made a factual post, based on my experience of what I have seen a ton of pvpers going through, and the state of the game.

Fact - there are 2 clients being used in PvP, and they are not equal. In a competitive game, is this going to cause issues? If you want to focus on anything - answer that question. The root fundamental cause.

If you continue to avoid that question, by attacking other minor points, it shows your bias. Which is clear anyway.

Funny how as soon as I said I was an EC user, your argument turned into "oh so you're defending EC".  Your attempt to sway this debate is pathetic.

You're straight-up asking devs to make a change based on your lies.

I've posted enough correct information in this thread so at this point I'm out.

sibble said:

As long as you continue to post misinformation about EC I will continue to correct you.  No, EC does not "cast spells way faster".  EC allows you to send a target with your spell cast at the same time, saving the time it takes a CC user to pick their target and send it to the server.

My lies, lets use your own quote, to prove speed.

"Saving the time".

Saving the time = Faster.

I said Faster.

You said Saving the Time.

See what I mean about Semantics?

So because I used a different word, which means exactly the same thing, I'm lying?

Time for you both to take a deep breath and count to 10 please?

Can we not discuss unofficial clients here please? I believe they come under the same heading as 'grey' shards.

Yoshi said:

"client casting speed variations are a known issue

https://forum.uo.com/discussion/1987/client-spell-casting-speed-variations#latest

As I said, and as well said in the post that you linked... In EC, if you add your target to a spell then it's sent all at once to the server which is faster than sending your target to the server separately.

That is not the same as "EC casts faster" which is one of the statements I am debating.

The speed at which you can cast Greater Heal in CC vs EC is not different, for example.

If you want to add this functionality to CC then great for everyone.

If you state that casting speed is different between clients, people are going to read that and be mislead.

CC
Last spell
Last target

Cast spell (name)
Last target.

Cast spell INVIS
target self

Bilbo said:

Cast spell INVIS
target self

sibble said:

Yoshi said:

"client casting speed variations are a known issue

https://forum.uo.com/discussion/1987/client-spell-casting-speed-variations#latest

As I said, and as well said in the post that you linked... In EC, if you add your target to a spell then it's sent all at once to the server which is faster than sending your target to the server separately.

That is not the same as "EC casts faster" which is one of the statements I am debating.

The speed at which you can cast Greater Heal in CC vs EC is not different, for example.

If you want to add this functionality to CC then great for everyone.

If you state that casting speed is different between clients, people are going to read that and be mislead.

The only people who will get confused, are those that want to read too much into it.

I mean the process of casting a spell, I'm clearly not interested in specific spell times, I'm a pvper, I'm looking at the total process, and the total speed spells are coming at me. It is quicker from EC, therefore faster.

No common sense. Or you just want to argue the toss. Which is boring. And misleading, and diverts topics away from the original intent, which is what I believe you want, trying to discredit what I say, by posting back at me exactly the same content I'm talking about in different words, it's ridiculous the mentality of some posters.

I was taking a helicopter view, to try and explain the overall problem, I really didn't need someone diving into the forest, it's too much detail, and leads to complete diversions like this. And I thought we all knew the detail, therefore I didn't have to really say it.

And re the bit I have highlighted in Bold - yes, I clearly said from the opening post - CC could do with having some of the enhancements to catch-up - which I believe are possible. You are finally catching up with me, thank-you.

Cookie said:

2. Bring Classic Client, the original and main PvP client up to their level, by including their features in the game please.

You can believe whatever you want like I already said stupid people make assumptions.

You said one thing, but you meant another - "the process of casting a spell".  How about next time you try to make an important point you think about what you type before you hit the enter key?

"It also casts spells way faster" - your quote, completely false.

Hey, I can cast Energy Vortex way faster on EC than you can on CC.

Stop spreading misleading information, next time express your thoughts and opinions clearly, thanks.

sibble said:

You can believe whatever you want like I already said stupid people make assumptions.

You said one thing, but you meant another - "the process of casting a spell" which still isn't right.  How about next time you try to make an important point you think about what you type before you hit the enter key?

"It also casts spells way faster" - your quote, completely false.

Stop spreading misleading information, thanks.

Your reading comprehension is poor.

I'm only spreading misleading information to those who cannot understand.

edit - re your EV comment - I was also clearly talking in a pvp context, you seem unable to contextualise. It was clear and obvious to any pvper - hence why I asked if you pvp? (to be able to understand me in the first place) What do you think I'm interested in as a pvper? EV cast spell speed, or the amount of spells coming at me, compared to the amount I can cast back?

This conversation has become focused on personal opinions and personal attacks