Pet only powerscrolls

ok so here it goes lol... i hate Fel...hate. Fel....    u have people using ghost cams and unless your in a large guild trying to get power scrolls is just a headache.  I have nothing against PvP, but im not a Pvper. Im a trammie that is forced to go to Fel every so often to try and get scrolls for my pets because i cant afford 80mil per tactics scroll per pet.  Seems like every time i try to go do a spawn, im killed as soon as i pop an idol. I usually throw my hands up, say its not worth the headache and then my pet sits in the stable and i get bored with uo ,end up turning it off and just going outside.   There seems to be no balance for the trammel players when it comes to powerscrolls.  I dont want to control massive amounts of gold through farming scrolls, i just want to be able to do something that i enjoy doing on UO when i have the time to do it. and that is working up my pets.  would it be possible to make the non fel spawns drop pet only powerscrolls?  Then anyone wanting to enjoy their time in game working a pet would be able to farm the scrolls they need to do it.  i dont care if the scrolls are shard bound, i dont care if their character bound. id just like to be able to do what i like to do in game in the very limited time i have to get on there without having to deal with the frustration.      what do yall think?

I’m sure if you did a pole you find most players would like pet scrolls added to tram. It been asked for over and over and over. 
But here you will have those that don’t want them screaming the loudest and will be in favor of the path that was taken know matter what. Those few will win against the majority. 

Honestly I was one who was against this for a long time. Its basically the last thing you can PK someone for that has value. But now since pvp is mostly battling someone's computer, I say just do it. I'll pvp on other games, UOs famous pvp days are behind them.

This is not PvP. They do not wait until you get to the boss. They pk you during the spawn then run around hoping to res kill you. When you leave they leave.
It's just a player that likes to harass other players.  It should not be a playstyle in 2020s UO.

Norry said:

You can t-hunt and get scrolls.

Not 120's, but you can knock out 3-4 chests in the time it takes do do a spawn. Even with a protector, you may only get 110s from a spawn.

Scroll binders are the next step.

There is a LARGE portion of the population that loves pvp,  so with tmaps giving scrolls now, i say leave champs as they are.

It's a very small portion that loves pvp (especially the way it is now). The number of people pvping is a shell of what it used to be. You'd be lucky at peak playtime on atl to find 20-30 people pvping.

I've felt that pet-Power scrolls should be available in Tram since they started letting us use them on pets. But I've come to the feeling that what they should do is give the players more options. (I'll try to keep this short)

• All pets should come with a chance of being over skilled. Each skill between 100 and 120 when created or skill added. RNG weighted towards 105 or 110
• An extremely low chance of getting over 120. Lower that the odds of getting a blaze Cu Sidhe
• Skills are ALL reset to 100 if a player decides to add ANY power scroll. Only the first scroll of course with something on pet lore to show it has been triggered to prevent fraud. 
• Pets that now come over skilled have that skill not subject to reset.

This would give players a reason to keep taming. If they want to spend the money to just scroll it up they can or they can keep trying to get better numbers as well as that cute color.

I'm not going to get into the "force us into Fel" argument other than to say nothing in the game pisses me off more.

Norry said:

You are not forced in anyway. Your pets will do ok at gm skills, and will be great with 110s.

Most of my pets havent eaten scrolls. You are not forced to have the best of the best, its a mindset.

And like i said, you could takr the long route and use scroll binders. Even just binding 105s, you may get a 120 before doing a spawn.

Its lart of the grind to keep us here.

And most spawns, yeah they kill ya till you leave, then come back with pvm toons so they can do the spawn.

But you go to fel, you consent that outside of guard zones, you can be attacked.

that is exactly why some option needs to be made available to people who chose to opt out of fel. if these hard core "pvp'ers"  had any kind of ass they would play all fel shards......   but they dont, they just like to harass people like me who are just trying to do something in this game that i dont need a full party of people to do.  this is why i dont play wow, anything worth doing you need a group. i play UO so i can have the freedom of coming and going as i please.  Guilds have owned these spawns since like day 8 of powerscrolls being released, they have made enough gold to live comfortably for 10 uo lifetimes. i jus want to build the pets i want to build because that is the gameplay i enjoy doing. i can go train when i have time and if my baby wakes up i can recall out , no biggie.  these people arent pvp'ing as was stated above. i have no desire to fight them, i dont know how to pvp, i dont want to know how to pvp. all i want to do is get a scroll and work a pet. i should be able to do that even if i choose to not go to fel.  my pets i can use to make gold to buy scrolls for my toons off the people who do the fel spawns. they still win, and thats fine  but u dont have players getting so annoyed that they just throw their hands up and walk away from uo because its just not worth the aggravation.   hell throw pet scrolls in ranger t maps , i dont care where they come from i just dont want to be forced to go to fel to get a chance at them.

Let the players decide.  Put a toggle for PvP. Consenual PvP.  If a blue is doing a spawn the red can use protection and get scrolls. Or some others may choose to fight. 

105s and 110s are available via treasure hunting in fel. I have NEVER been raided treasure hunting, although I do avoid certain areas. 105s and 110s can be bound up. A scrolled pet 110 or 115 kills crap just fine. 120 pets are more vanity in my opinion. Yes, some pets should be scrolled to 120, but not most. In fact, I see a lot of pets that have no business being scrolled to 120!

Leave the champ spawns alone. Let the PvP crowd have a carrot. If ya must get/have the 120s, hit a small shard and farm away, transfer them back to your home shard. Have ya ever done a champ spawn? Its not like the 120s just fall by the dozens! It takes work. No easy button!

That's how I see it.
That's how I understand it.
Blah blah blah in my opinion...

keep the scroll like this.its the last valuable things in fel .you can farm everythings to make gold and just buy it. and if you really want to do it ,you still able to go farm it  in t2a or abyss.
if you go there blue most of the pvp guild are not going to raid you .

Pawain said:

Let the players decide.  Put a toggle for PvP. Consenual PvP.  If a blue is doing a spawn the red can use protection and get scrolls. Or some others may choose to fight. 

Definitely a win win for the PVPer. He/She gets power scrolls for activating protection and going back to trash talking on chat or playing solitaire. And you thought we had a problem with ghost cams/macros  before.

If the suggestion was toggle set to no PvP then a lower return on Power scrolls maybe. But it still doesn't answer the question "Why do we have to deal with PvPer if we don't want to?"

jelinidas said:

105s and 110s are available via treasure hunting in fel. I have NEVER been raided treasure hunting, although I do avoid certain areas. 105s and 110s can be bound up. A scrolled pet 110 or 115 kills crap just fine. 120 pets are more vanity in my opinion. Yes, some pets should be scrolled to 120, but not most. In fact, I see a lot of pets that have no business being scrolled to 120!

Leave the champ spawns alone. Let the PvP crowd have a carrot. If ya must get/have the 120s, hit a small shard and farm away, transfer them back to your home shard. Have ya ever done a champ spawn? Its not like the 120s just fall by the dozens! It takes work. No easy button!

That's how I see it.
That's how I understand it.
Blah blah blah in my opinion...

The PvPs that we see do not do spawns.  They just PK you in the middle of the spawn and leave after.  If so called PvPs want to help with the spawn and boss, nothing is stopping them. You should be for the button if there really are PvPers in UO.

Who said anything about "less danger" or easier? We just don't want to play Fel and have to deal with PKs, Ghost Cams, Players Macroing, running illegal "helper programs" and all the rest hiding behind the real Consensual PvPers. For example I enjoy doing T-Maps but I don't enjoy doing them while watching over my shoulder for some A hole PKer.

If you are a real PvPer you don't need to force me to play with you.

An offer of making the champ spawns twice as hard in Tram for the same rewards as Fel would be met with a resounding Hell Yes.

Tim said:

 For example I enjoy doing T-Maps but I don't enjoy doing them while watching over my shoulder for some A hole PKer.

Have you ever been PKd doing a map? I mean if your doing one at the Yew fel gate, then yeah. But come on. the reds are not running ghost cams looking for treasure hunters. Im not even sure I have seen anyone ever doing a fel map! 

Dixie_of_Chessy1 said:

ok so here it goes lol... i hate Fel...hate. Fel....    u have people using ghost cams and unless your in a large guild trying to get power scrolls is just a headache.  I have nothing against PvP, but im not a Pvper. Im a trammie that is forced to go to Fel every so often to try and get scrolls for my pets because i cant afford 80mil per tactics scroll per pet.  Seems like every time i try to go do a spawn, im killed as soon as i pop an idol. I usually throw my hands up, say its not worth the headache and then my pet sits in the stable and i get bored with uo ,end up turning it off and just going outside.   There seems to be no balance for the trammel players when it comes to powerscrolls.  I dont want to control massive amounts of gold through farming scrolls, i just want to be able to do something that i enjoy doing on UO when i have the time to do it. and that is working up my pets.  would it be possible to make the non fel spawns drop pet only powerscrolls?  Then anyone wanting to enjoy their time in game working a pet would be able to farm the scrolls they need to do it.  i dont care if the scrolls are shard bound, i dont care if their character bound. id just like to be able to do what i like to do in game in the very limited time i have to get on there without having to deal with the frustration.      what do yall think?

Unfortunately, it looks like it has not yet been figured out how this status of things may have lost players (and paid subscriptions) to Ultima Online....

I mean, as you well pointed out, players have the need for Powerscrolls and, yet, unless the get into some guild (mind you, in those Shards where there is enough players to form a few Guilds...) and thus try hunting as a group those Powerscrolls, for a Solo player it becomes hardly possible to get one's own powerscrolls especially on those Shards where spawns might be monitored by AFK, scripted Ghost Cams or Hidden EJ Cams...

As soon as activity is reported there, the AFK Cam rings a bell to those in the wait who raid the player.

And what do these player other only option becomes at that point if they are unable to get their Powerscrolls on their own ?

They need to spend countless hours doing repetitive farming for gold in order to be able to buy Powerscrolls which a handfull of players holding a Monopoly asks outrageous prices for.

And this mindless, repetitive grinding to get the gold needed to buy Powerscrolls at outrageous prices (because of the Monopoly that only a handfull of players have, thanking to wrong, IMHO, game mechanics), in many cases gets players to have enough, they close their account and stop their subscription those losing revenues to Ultima Online.

Sure, last year the Developers added Powerscrolls to Treasure Chests unfortunately, they are only up to 110 powerscrolls.... and they are not "that" frequent to be found in chests, not at least in a nmber significative enough to be of any realistic help as an alternative source for 120s as compared to Champion Spawns....

In order to get a single 120 from 110 through binding, some 12 x 10 = 120 110s are needed.

And, mind you, that would not be 110 Treasure Chests because, of course, they not always yield the same skill powerscroll.... so, for example, in the case of a Tactics 120 that is needed, maybe 1 in 20 (if even) Treasure chest might have a 110 Tactics.

So, that means that to get a 120 Tactics, it would not be unthinkable that one might have to do some 120 x 20 = 2,400 Treasure Maps....

Aside from the mnstrous grinding that this might be, as well as the huge time invested into digging 2,400 Treasure Maps to find 120 Tactics 110s to bind into a Tactics 120, there is "also" the ittle detail to actually "obtain" 2,400 Treasure Maps to then be able to dig them up....

AND, on top of that, to get a Tactics one would necessarily have to only use Warriors Cache, Hoard or Trove Maps which would make the grinding to find 2,400 Treasure Maps of that specific type a monstrous task...

No wonder then, that players burnt out by such enormous amount of grinding necessary to get 120s would prefer to just quit playing Ultima Online althougether and go play some other game out there with much less grinding and more fun....

Monopolies are BAD, bad in real life where Anti-Trust Governmental Agencies monitor all the time to stop those Monopolies and break them up, and they ALSO are, to my opinion, really bad in a virtual game's economy for the same reasons that they are bad in real life....

Monopolies, to my opinion, should be fought against, not promoted with game mechanics and Design....

And no, as I well explained, adding 110s to Treasure Maps was NOT ENOUGH, to my opinion,to break such a monopoly as way too many 110s are needed to make a 120...

If the Powerscrolls Monopoly had to be broken and stopped, then at least 115s shoulddd have had to be added to Treasure Maps, and be quite also frequent to be found....

That is at least how I see it.

Obviously atl is riddled with ghost cams, and people checking spawns. I dont have shard shields, so I buy 2 xfers from VS, go to origin (or some other shard with no people) run piper till I get all the scrolls I need for my other toons, then transfer back. I've met 1 red on origin and he helped me with spawn..... that's the easiest way to get all your scrolls for free (you could sell on VS to recoup your xfer cost). 

Skett said:

I’m sure if you did a pole you find most players would like pet scrolls added to tram. It been asked for over and over and over. 
But here you will have those that don’t want them screaming the loudest and will be in favor of the path that was taken know matter what. Those few will win against the majority. 

Bash away 

The real question to be asked, to my opinion, is whether the ending Balance from adding Powerscrolls to Trammel would be more in favour to increasing or decreasing Ultima Online's players' base and paying customers....

I am convinced that the Monopoly of Powerscrolls in the end of a few has lost way, but way more PvM players (and paying customers) over the Years discouraged by the outrageous amount of grinding necessary to "buy" the Powerscrolls which they could not get by themselves because of the outrageous high prices resulting from the Monopoly and cornering of the market from those few who actually get them as it would cost if Powerscrolls where to be added to Trammel....

Think about it for your own Shard.... how many players are known to actually be the ones who farm the powerscrolls ? You will come up with only a limites number of players, most likely....

Then think, of all those players on your Shard who have to grind an enormous amount of time to put together the gold needed to buy those scrolls, considering their outrageous prices due to the Monopoly....

There you go, the current status quo for Powerscrolls helps very few and screws very many players....

Now, if a sufficient amount of players among those very many gotten screwed get fed up by all the grinding they need to do in order to make the gold to buy those Powerscrolls from those few, there you get way more PvMers quitting playing UO over this as how many PvPers would quit over seeing Powerscrolls added to Trammel....

So, my take and opinion is, that the current status of things with Powerscrolls only available in Felucca actually hurts Ultima Online and its capacity to keep a larger players base and thus revenues and th game, overall, would see more players, to my opinion, if Powerscrolls were to be obtainable in Trammel and thus the Monopoly for then got finally broken.

At least, that is my opinion of it.

Pawain said:

This is not PvP. They do not wait until you get to the boss. They pk you during the spawn then run around hoping to res kill you. When you leave they leave.
It's just a player that likes to harass other players.  It should not be a playstyle in 2020s UO.

I totally agree.

That is NOT PvP, it is only griefing gameplay, to my opinion.

Not to mention, that as it is known, Ghost Cams or Hidden EJs Cams can be used, possibly also AFK and scripted (which is against the TOS, to my understanding), to monitor activity at a spawn to then raid it with extremely low investment of time and effort to do it.

Some of these Raiders do not even spend their in game time to find their targets.... they just have a scripted BOT doing the work for them while they do else and only show up when the Boss spawns to Raid the spawn and take the scrolls from the player who dared trying to work that spawn....

As you well pointed out, I agree that this is not PvP by no means and that it should not be a playstyle in 2020 Ultima Online.

@Bleak , @Kyronix ; , what is your opinion as Developers of Ultima Online about this issue, out of curiosity ?

This is a multiplayer game. Not single player. No account was ever meant to be 100% self sufficient avoiding all contact or transactions with fellow players.  Fel literally has just powerscrolls and stat scrolls. 

That being said, the pet revamp should have included pet only scrolls available everywhere. Spawns, high end tmaps, roof, peerless everywhere. 

Your forgetting the main reason why this will never change...

RMT 

“It’s not what you know it’s who you know” 

Xris said:

Obviously atl is riddled with ghost cams, and people checking spawns. I dont have shard shields, so I buy 2 xfers from VS, go to origin (or some other shard with no people) run piper till I get all the scrolls I need for my other toons, then transfer back. I've met 1 red on origin and he helped me with spawn..... that's the easiest way to get all your scrolls for free (you could sell on VS to recoup your xfer cost). 

I have 100s of pets and they are all hungry.  Their hunger never ends.  My pets eat scrolls I don't sell them.

Why do yall fear consensual PvP?  Not enough players actually want to PvP maybe? 

Pawain said:

Xris said:

Obviously atl is riddled with ghost cams, and people checking spawns. I dont have shard shields, so I buy 2 xfers from VS, go to origin (or some other shard with no people) run piper till I get all the scrolls I need for my other toons, then transfer back. I've met 1 red on origin and he helped me with spawn..... that's the easiest way to get all your scrolls for free (you could sell on VS to recoup your xfer cost). 

I have 100s of pets and they are all hungry.  Their hunger never ends.  My pets eat scrolls I don't sell them.

Why do yall fear consensual PvP?  Not enough players actually want to PvP maybe? 

UO has had non consensual pvp for 20 years+ years. It's time to accept the risk to go to fel :P. Most of the problems of the OP could be solved by transferring and getting scrolls, bringing more people to spawn with you, or just buying them. Not quite sure why the dev's are taking no action on ghost cams. That's odd, and almost insulting. It's been a problem, it was brought up a long time ago, and theres no fix in sight.

jelinidas said:

Tim said:

 For example I enjoy doing T-Maps but I don't enjoy doing them while watching over my shoulder for some A hole PKer.

Have you ever been PKd doing a map? I mean if your doing one at the Yew fel gate, then yeah. But come on. the reds are not running ghost cams looking for treasure hunters. Im not even sure I have seen anyone ever doing a fel map! 

Before the tmap revamp I had a few people try to PK me when I was doing chests in Fel. Which was why I created a hotkey macro to recall home.

I've also been PK'ed while mining in Fel. He even killed my packies. 

Lumberjack and mining been killed many many times and I always go naked lol and they still kill you. Truly twisted individuals out there. 

Bring back the guaranteed, shard-bound 120s from the Khal Ankur spawn in Fel Khaldun. Most PvP builds would struggle to complete that spawn, and they'd have to bring some Sampires. That way, you'd be able to buy 120 PS on lesser populated shards (otherwise all the 120s get ferreted away to Atlantic).

Pawain said:

Let the players decide.  Put a toggle for PvP. Consenual PvP.  If a blue is doing a spawn the red can use protection and get scrolls. Or some others may choose to fight. 

Urge said:

This is a multiplayer game. Not single player. No account was ever meant to be 100% self sufficient avoiding all contact or transactions with fellow players.  Fel literally has just powerscrolls and stat scrolls. 

That being said, the pet revamp should have included pet only scrolls available everywhere. Spawns, high end tmaps, roof, peerless everywhere. 

One thing to be considered though, is that usually, most of those who raid the Champ spawns and hold a Monopoly of who gets Powerscrolls (them and their close buddies, usually....), "also" have, on average, PvM characters who do the Trammel spawns for their needs.

That is, they are quite self sufficient AND get to sell Powerscrolls for what they want because of that Monopoly which permits them to corner the market and make whatever high price they may want.

So, it is not like Felucca only players who need to sell 120s to make gold to then buy Trammel stuff, sure, there may be a limited numbers who just stick to Felucca and have no PvM characters but my assumption is that these players are very limited, if they even exist.

Furthermore, all this wealth coming from Powerscrolls' sales goes into the purchase of very high end extremely rare drops items which make their Templates even further more difficult to be fought from whomever might want to challenge their Monopoly of the Powerscroll spawns.

Factor in also some possible use of cheats and hacks in PvP by some of these players and one can easily imagine how the breaking of a Powerscrolls' Monopoly might be difficult if not outright impossible.

Sure, there is the option of farming them in an "off the way" and extremely low population Shard but frankly, aside from the transfer costs connected and the fact that some Raiders may keep an eye on several shards' Spawns with Ghost Cams and Hidden EJs Cams and get there as needed, personally, I see the fact that a player who wanted to get Powerscrolls had to go to get them in an off the way and low populated Shard absurd....

Gameplay should provide to players an alternate way to get their Powerscrolls and, sorry, Treasure Maps is NOT an effective alternate way.... it takes way, but waaaaaay too many 110s to put together a 120 and it all comes in the end to an enormous Trasure Maps grinds in order to get 1 scroll for 1 pet.... think how many scrolls 1 pet might need and how many pets a Tamer might want to have in the stables and to tame and one can easily see how limiting Powerscrolls in Treasure Chests to 110s is NOT an effective solution, to my opinion, to breaking the Monopoly of Powerscrolls in the hands of a few players only.

Norry said:

You also assuming you get 120s every run. I am lucky to get 115's doing spawns. But most of the time i get 110's.

You can buy 110's for 20-40k on atl.

Those are gotten most often.

If you play anywhere other than atl, you will not be pked doing tmaps.

I tried to offer other ideas, and ways for you to get scrolls or money to buy them. It is not hard.

Just farming fan dancers you could make 500 mil+ a day.

Leave the carrot where it is, and go for the dip.

Personally, I think that a gameplay that "forces" players to get into grinds to farm for gold to then be able to afford extremely high prices (artificially raised by a Monopoly in their control of availability) is a bad gameplay for that game.

This, because while some players might "endure" through that grinding, some other players might get "burnt out" by doing it and stop playing althougether (and paying their monthly suscription to that game if they are subscribed....).

And this looses paying customers to that game and, thus, the ability to raise more resources for the upkeep and maintainance and enhancement of it.

Monopolies and the cornering of markets are bad to an healthy economy, and that is why in Real Life most countries have Anti-Trust Agencies in charge of breaking up those Monopolies...

Honestly, I do not see why the digital economic environment of a game would be any different.... permitting Monopolies in a game and to a very limited number of players to hold a Monopoly tight of a given needed item such as 120s in UO, for example, hurts that game's economy and, to my opinion, looses players who may get burnt out from the ridicolous grinding that they then have to get through to be able to get those 120s which they need but have no alternate way to get.

That is at least the way I see it.

ALL scrolls should be shard bound, it's absolutely dumb that they are not

Nikard said:

ALL scrolls should be shard bound, it's absolutely dumb that they are not

Well, the good of that non being shard bound is that it has helped to drive prices down because of competition at least on those shards where they end up being brought to...

Before the animal training was brought in players were posting that the power scroll market was dead, no one was buying them. I personally thought that was something of an exaggeration.

Animal training revived that supposedly flagging market.

For many years the various development teams have resisted all pressure to add power scrolls to Trammel, they did, however, accept a player suggestion that power scrolls be added to felucca treasure maps.

Since then I have dug a considerable number of such maps. I have never been attacked, I believe the chances are very small. If you dig within a couple of screens of Yew gate you might, if you dig by a house and the owner happens to log in, return to restock, or return to log out you might. Otherwise the biggest danger from digging maps in Fel is from the map spawn.

Champ spawns can be done, but only if you have the luck to be able to choose a time of day when there are few people around. I did one last week.

Norry said:

Popps, i gave you an alternative. You dont like it because it takes to long. Its to grindy. Have you made A tamer? Have you trained A pet to 120 chiv? Disco?

This game is grindy.

AND, you are ignoring the fact that you might get enough 110s to make a 120 wrestle before you EVER get one from spawning.

So, the devs gave us 2 options at this point. Spawn and risk getting raided.

Do tmaps, with a much lower risk of getting raided, but capped items.

Or the original 3rd option. Farm, and buy said item from another player.

Adding Powerscrolls to Treasure Maps was certainly a step forward in the right direction, I am only saying, that to my opinion, it was not sufficient to bring more wanted scrolls down to more affordable prices as the OP laments, given how extremely difficult it is to make a 120 off of 110s...

And a pet, might need "several" of those 120s to be brought up to speed and a Tamer, usually, wants to enjoy training several pets....

So, multiply all the 110s needed for a 120 with the fact that only 1 Treasure Map in X of them will carry that one same 110 that one is looking to bind, and multiply it again for Y times that a pet needs 120s to be fully scrolled up, and multiply that again for Z pets that the Tamer might have in his/her stable and, voila', you come up with a ridicolously enormous high number of Treasure Maps that this Tamer would need to find and dig up in order to get enough 110s to scroll up his/her pets.

Personally, I would have made it possible for Treasure Maps to carry also 115s (and perhaps even a rarer chance to see a 120, at least in Trove Maps), at least for those digged up in Felucca, and made Powerscrolls spawn in Treasure Maps also in Trammel, at least up to 110s.

This way, the grinding would not have resulted to be so incredibly high, for someone wanting to get a few 120s from Treasure Maps....

And yes, the game is full of grinding, but going into grinding Town is a dangerous endeavour because, while some players may have a higher endurance towards grinding their way up in the game, some others, instead, might eventually "give up" on it and move onto other games....

So, forcing "too much" grinding onto players with game mechanics I think is not good for the game when it risks loosing players and paying customers with their subscriptions....

Last night I did a vendor search on PAC for a 120 tactics PS shock that I found one and even more shocked when I saw the price $80,000,000

Skett said:

Last night I did a vendor search on PAC for a 120 tactics PS shock that I found one and even more shocked when I saw the price $80,000,000

And how many pets might a Tamer have that would need a 120 Tactics applied on them to be more effective ?

Not to mention, that pets usually "also" need 120s for Resisting Spells, Wrestling, Meditation, Focus, Evaluate Intelligence, Magery etc.

Check also the prices for those and see how much a scrolled pet could come up to OR, how much ridicolous grinding a player would need to do and for how long to be able to put together the gold to buy those Powerscrolls since the Champion Spawns are after under a Monopoly of only a handfull of players who, by controlling the spawns, have cornered their Market and thus artificially gouged the price up for Powerscrolls....

Not to mention, that often such a tight control of Champion Spawns is maitained through the use of Ghost Cams or Hidden EJs Cams, sometimes even AFK scripted which, as I understand, is against the TOS of Ultima Online....

And all of this, I think hurts Ultima Online, ultimately, because, to my viewing, it looses paying players to it who get deterred by the ridicolous amount of grinding that they have to do to buy the 120s for their characters or for their pets.

Furthermore, the other results of this status of things is that all this brings an enormous amount of wealth to those few players who control and hold tight a Monopoly of Powerscrolls who can, in this way, afford to buy special artifacts or items that further make their characters more powerfull in PvP and, thus, unopposable from anyone who might want to try to challenge their Monopoly of Powerscrolls.

It is a number and a series of things which, to my viewing, one combined with the other end up resulting in making the matter even worse, over time, with those holding a tight control of the spawn for Powerscrolls even more wealth, means and power to further strengthen that tight control of Powerscroll spawns.

As I said, this is like in real life where, when a Company becomes too powerfull and too much cornering a Market that Governments stand up through their anti-Trust Agencies to break up such too powerfull Companies and, thus, "open up" again that Market to competition and to prices to drive downwards, thanking to such a re-established competition.

Adding Powerscrolls to Treasure Maps was a step in the right direction but, as I said, it was too short a step.... the Developers should have made it a bigger leap and I would have made it possible for Treasure Maps to carry also 115s (and perhaps even a rarer chance to see a 120, at least in Trove Maps), at least for those digged up in Felucca, and made Powerscrolls spawn in Treasure Maps also in Trammel, at least up to 110s.

This way, the grinding would not have resulted to be so incredibly high, for someone wanting to get a few 120s from Treasure Maps and it would have worked towards breaking that Monopoly and, thus, bring prices down for Powerscrolls.

At least, that is how I see it.

It wasn’t for my pet either way $80,000,000 is absolutely absurd 

Pets do not NEED 120s, players WANT them to have 120s. Damage output is not that much better. I would probably agree on the magics going to 120, A lot of players on the shards I play will give 110s and sometimes 115s for free. *gasps*. Any pet scrolled to 110 or 115 will kill shit just fine, Do you even run a tamer?

Popps, you may have had more to say, but I quit reading after the first paragraph...again

popps said:

Urge said:

This is a multiplayer game. Not single player. No account was ever meant to be 100% self sufficient avoiding all contact or transactions with fellow players.  Fel literally has just powerscrolls and stat scrolls. 

That being said, the pet revamp should have included pet only scrolls available everywhere. Spawns, high end tmaps, roof, peerless everywhere. 

One thing to be considered though, is that usually, most of those who raid the Champ spawns and hold a Monopoly of who gets Powerscrolls (them and their close buddies, usually....), "also" have, on average, PvM characters who do the Trammel spawns for their needs.

That is, they are quite self sufficient AND get to sell Powerscrolls for what they want because of that Monopoly which permits them to corner the market and make whatever high price they may want.

So, it is not like Felucca only players who need to sell 120s to make gold to then buy Trammel stuff, sure, there may be a limited numbers who just stick to Felucca and have no PvM characters but my assumption is that these players are very limited, if they even exist.

Furthermore, all this wealth coming from Powerscrolls' sales goes into the purchase of very high end extremely rare drops items which make their Templates even further more difficult to be fought from whomever might want to challenge their Monopoly of the Powerscroll spawns.

Factor in also some possible use of cheats and hacks in PvP by some of these players and one can easily imagine how the breaking of a Powerscrolls' Monopoly might be difficult if not outright impossible.

Sure, there is the option of farming them in an "off the way" and extremely low population Shard but frankly, aside from the transfer costs connected and the fact that some Raiders may keep an eye on several shards' Spawns with Ghost Cams and Hidden EJs Cams and get there as needed, personally, I see the fact that a player who wanted to get Powerscrolls had to go to get them in an off the way and low populated Shard absurd....

Gameplay should provide to players an alternate way to get their Powerscrolls and, sorry, Treasure Maps is NOT an effective alternate way.... it takes way, but waaaaaay too many 110s to put together a 120 and it all comes in the end to an enormous Trasure Maps grinds in order to get 1 scroll for 1 pet.... think how many scrolls 1 pet might need and how many pets a Tamer might want to have in the stables and to tame and one can easily see how limiting Powerscrolls in Treasure Chests to 110s is NOT an effective solution, to my opinion, to breaking the Monopoly of Powerscrolls in the hands of a few players only.

Monopoly: There are players that corner the market on a lot of uo items. They're just not as obvious as the fel players with powerscrolls.

Self sufficient players: Cannot run a monopoly on any item while still being able to provide everything for their account. We're talking mining the ore to doing bods to get the runics to reforging a suit to using those suits to farm items. This game wasn't meant for 1 account to be able to do all. 

Wealth from powerscrolls: You can spend all day to end up with a 115 scroll being the best or a 120 music. You get far more wealth in one single roof run. Just because a 120 tactics sells for 80mil doesn't mean they're common at all.

Cheats and hacks: Exist. Impossible to beat? Nope. End of the day whoever runs out of HP first wins no matter what. 

Cross shard: Very effective but annoying. Most stay to get full powerscroll books and xfer back to resell.

Maps: Time for time you could most likely bind 110s to get what you want before you actually get lucky rolling one at a spawn. 

No one person has a monopoly on powerscrolls. The best guilds do for a while then it becomes the next best guild. Notice i say GUILD. As in multiplayer. The gameplay that was meant to be played to get this kind of reward. 

Norry said:

You can buy 110's for 20-40k on atl.
When is the last time you played UO.  All the scrolls that people want start at 400K and up for just 110s, maybe you should log into the game and play.

Just farming fan dancers you could make 500 mil+ a day.
What AFK farming program are you using.  Dont Dancers drop like 1000gp so you are killing 500K dancers a day.  Even at 2000gp that is 250K dancers.

LMAO

You can make a lot of gold working VS. When I came back I made almost 40m a week reselling tangles. Fun....no, very boring, but gold is easy.

Tangles, ethys, high end vet rewards, powerscrolls, hawkwinds robe, conj garbs. Since I dont work VS anymore, I'll give you some of my go to items. I used to check vs 2-3 times a day, buy low, sell high, know your prices. People CONSTANTLY put these on VS under value.

Let me see if I have the argument against straight. 

1. PvP is fun you should HAVE to try do it.
2. As long as you are lucky enough to get T-maps in out of the way locations it should be safe to do them.
3. There is no cheating or ghost cam problems in most of Fel.
4. If they make Power Scrolls available out side of Fel no one will play PvP.
5. If you really don't want to PvP you should go to a low population shard ($$) and you probably won't get jumped.
6. Other wise you should farm content you don't want to do and hope you get some thing some one will pay enough for so you can buy the Power Scrolls you want.

Is that pretty much the argument against any form of Power Scroll availability outside of Fel?

The answer I really want is an explanation of how will having them available out side of Fel affect your enjoyment of the game. If you can't come up with anything but number 4 them you can (must remember form rules).............

Here's a cool little compromise. I've given it about two minutes of thought, so it should be about as good as most of the "the game is grindy by nature, so go grind to get your power scrolls."

Take power scrolls out of the champ spawns. Make the Fel reward for champ spawns something that the PvPers would love to have, such as gear specifically designed around PvP (i.e. Hit Spell, HCI, DCI, EP, SSI combos) that can ONLY be obtained through said champ spawns. That gives everyone that wants to PvP a reason to a) go do a champ spawn and b) go attack each other at the champ spawns for the gear. Make said gear cursed, but only in the champ spawn area. The cursed tag is removed once outside of that area.

Now... instead, make power scrolls up to 120 obtainable through treasure maps... all treasure maps. In Trammel, they would only be 105s. In Fel, it should be possible to get 120s from Hoard or Trove maps (whichever is higher... I don't remember which). Scale them according to the difficulty of the map.

Anyone saying the game is grindy should have few problems with this. This system makes power scroll ganking just as grindy as anything that has been discussed in this topic. Ghost cams make champ jumping a joke, and ganking tamers isn't PvP... it's bullying. Go ahead and set up ghost cams for treasure map locations instead. That should keep you grinding plenty.

Tim said:

Let me see if I have the argument against straight. 

1. PvP is fun you should HAVE to try do it.
2. As long as you are lucky enough to get T-maps in out of the way locations it should be safe to do them.
3. There is no cheating or ghost cam problems in most of Fel.
4. If they make Power Scrolls available out side of Fel no one will play PvP.
5. If you really don't want to PvP you should go to a low population shard ($$) and you probably won't get jumped.
6. Other wise you should farm content you don't want to do and hope you get some thing some one will pay enough for so you can buy the Power Scrolls you want.

Is that pretty much the argument against any form of Power Scroll availability outside of Fel?

The answer I really want is an explanation of how will having them available out side of Fel affect your enjoyment of the game. If you can't come up with anything but number 4 them you can (must remember form rules).............

1) No
2) I've seen maybe 2 maps done in fel my whole 20 years playing
3) There are. Not going to deny that
4) It'll be less for sure
5) Very true. I know many that have done this very successfully in more populated times.
6) Yes. It's just a larger scale version of fighting mobs to buy ingots because you don't want to mine.

I'm not opposed to having a limited number drop off some things outside fel but it needs to mainly be fel based. 1 120 could drop off a boss or something. It would be a great way to get people back to peerless. 

Here's the answer you're looking for. It needs to remain fel based because that's basically the only spot left in this game where it is strongly encouraged to play in large multiplayer groups. You can do it solo but chances are against you dying to another player. Bringing friends increases your chances for success. 

Everything tram based can be so easily done with no more than 2 people.

Can we just get free 120s every time we tame a pet? If you dont like the risk, do other things. Gold is easy to make. People have given lots of ideas on not only how to make gold, but how to farm PS's and bind them to what you need. People want easy access to 120s, which probably shouldn't happen. Not everything is EZ mode.

Xris said:

Can we just get free 120s every time we tame a pet? If you dont like the risk, do other things. Gold is easy to make. People have given lots of ideas on not only how to make gold, but how to farm PS's and bind them to what you need. People want easy access to 120s, which probably shouldn't happen. Not everything is EZ mode.

You're not very good at math. The very idea of binding 105's (or even 110's) to make one 120 power scroll is absolutely ludicrous. What you propose goes beyond grinding to the point of absurdity.

Tchalla said:

Xris said:

Can we just get free 120s every time we tame a pet? If you dont like the risk, do other things. Gold is easy to make. People have given lots of ideas on not only how to make gold, but how to farm PS's and bind them to what you need. People want easy access to 120s, which probably shouldn't happen. Not everything is EZ mode.

You're not very good at math. The very idea of binding 105's (or even 110's) to make one 120 power scroll is absolutely ludicrous. What you propose goes beyond grinding to the point of absurdity.

Wahhhhh UOs hard. It's been this way since the start. If you cant figure out how to make gold to buy what you need, you're bad at UO.

Tchalla said:

Xris said:

Can we just get free 120s every time we tame a pet? If you dont like the risk, do other things. Gold is easy to make. People have given lots of ideas on not only how to make gold, but how to farm PS's and bind them to what you need. People want easy access to 120s, which probably shouldn't happen. Not everything is EZ mode.

You're not very good at math. The very idea of binding 105's (or even 110's) to make one 120 power scroll is absolutely ludicrous. What you propose goes beyond grinding to the point of absurdity.

These sought after scrolls don't fall from the heavens on demand. It's a very grindy process that often includes selling what you have to buy what you need. 

(member of spawning guilds for 5 years)

Xris said:

Tchalla said:

Xris said:

Can we just get free 120s every time we tame a pet? If you dont like the risk, do other things. Gold is easy to make. People have given lots of ideas on not only how to make gold, but how to farm PS's and bind them to what you need. People want easy access to 120s, which probably shouldn't happen. Not everything is EZ mode.

You're not very good at math. The very idea of binding 105's (or even 110's) to make one 120 power scroll is absolutely ludicrous. What you propose goes beyond grinding to the point of absurdity.

Wahhhhh UOs hard. It's been this way since the start. If you cant figure out how to make gold to buy what you need, you're bad at UO.

It goes beyond buying the scrolls with money. There should be no section of the UO population that has any sort of hold on any in-game commodity. It is further exacerbated by the concept that one should be subjected to unwanted harassment in the game (rez killing is, in my opinion, harassment, and is frequently done) to attempt to get any in-game item. We can throw in the ridiculousness of the thirty minutes of "haha noob u died.go back to tram nub tamer" that is seen in global chat.

Yeah... great system. It should be changed.

Tchalla said:

Xris said:

Tchalla said:

Xris said:

Can we just get free 120s every time we tame a pet? If you dont like the risk, do other things. Gold is easy to make. People have given lots of ideas on not only how to make gold, but how to farm PS's and bind them to what you need. People want easy access to 120s, which probably shouldn't happen. Not everything is EZ mode.

You're not very good at math. The very idea of binding 105's (or even 110's) to make one 120 power scroll is absolutely ludicrous. What you propose goes beyond grinding to the point of absurdity.

Wahhhhh UOs hard. It's been this way since the start. If you cant figure out how to make gold to buy what you need, you're bad at UO.

It goes beyond buying the scrolls with money. There should be no section of the UO population that has any sort of hold on any in-game commodity. It is further exacerbated by the concept that one should be subjected to unwanted harassment in the game (rez killing is, in my opinion, harassment, and is frequently done) to attempt to get any in-game item. We can throw in the ridiculousness of the thirty minutes of "haha noob u died.go back to tram nub tamer" that is seen in global chat.

Yeah... great system. It should be changed.

Anyone could go to origin and farm scrolls then flood the atl market with them. YOU could hold the market if you wanted. If I get pked spawning, I rez and go back. If they rez kill me I log off and try again later. Everyone here seems to agree ghost cams are probably the worste thing that's tolerated by the dev team. 120 scrolls have always required risk, and I DO here your issues. You should not have to see ghost cams outside every spawn, then have a PKer come that kills you with their scripts. They shouldn't move scrolls to tram, they should fix the problems that make getting them so unfair.

Urge said:

Tchalla said:

Xris said:

Can we just get free 120s every time we tame a pet? If you dont like the risk, do other things. Gold is easy to make. People have given lots of ideas on not only how to make gold, but how to farm PS's and bind them to what you need. People want easy access to 120s, which probably shouldn't happen. Not everything is EZ mode.

You're not very good at math. The very idea of binding 105's (or even 110's) to make one 120 power scroll is absolutely ludicrous. What you propose goes beyond grinding to the point of absurdity.

These sought after scrolls don't fall from the heavens on demand. It's a very grindy process that often includes selling what you have to buy what you need. 

(member of spawning guilds for 5 years)

I don't mind grind, necessarily, but come on...

Getting a treasure map from any monster that has them on the loot table: 1%±
So... simply put, every 100 monsters gives you a t-map.

Using 110s only (best case scenario):

110's needed to make a 115: 12
115's needed to make a 120: 10
Number of different skills that power scrolls can be from champ spawns (and I assume treasure maps): 29

100 x 12 x 10 x 29 = 348,000

It's as grindy as killing thousands upon thousands of monsters to get higher end treasure maps so you can go do those thousand of treasure maps to try and and gather 120 of a specific +110 power scroll? I call shenanigans (I actually call it something else, but I'd imagine it would get censored, so shenanigans will do.

Xris said:

Anyone could go to origin and farm scrolls then flood the atl market with them. YOU could hold the market if you wanted. If I get pked spawning, I rez and go back. If they rez kill me I log off and try again later. Everyone here seems to agree ghost cams are probably the worste thing that's tolerated by the dev team. 120 scrolls have always required risk, and I DO here your issues. You should not have to see ghost cams outside every spawn, then have a PKer come that kills you with their scripts. They shouldn't move scrolls to tram, they should fix the problems that make getting them so unfair.

You don't see the issue with a player or group of players having that much control in a video game meant for fun and entertainment? The whole power scroll system is broken, and it was made worse by making them usable for pets.

So the treasurer maps done in Fel drop only 110 or 105 and 110 if so run the numbers doing 50% 110 and 50% 105 
it’s much more of an absurd grind 

Tchalla said:

Xris said:

Anyone could go to origin and farm scrolls then flood the atl market with them. YOU could hold the market if you wanted. If I get pked spawning, I rez and go back. If they rez kill me I log off and try again later. Everyone here seems to agree ghost cams are probably the worste thing that's tolerated by the dev team. 120 scrolls have always required risk, and I DO here your issues. You should not have to see ghost cams outside every spawn, then have a PKer come that kills you with their scripts. They shouldn't move scrolls to tram, they should fix the problems that make getting them so unfair.

You don't see the issue with a player or group of players having that much control in a video game meant for fun and entertainment? The whole power scroll system is broken, and it was made worse by making them usable for pets.

I'm saying you could control it if you wanted to. But you dont, you want developers to give you easy access to end game items. I agree making pets use them was a bad idea. 

Xris said:

Tchalla said:

Xris said:

Anyone could go to origin and farm scrolls then flood the atl market with them. YOU could hold the market if you wanted. If I get pked spawning, I rez and go back. If they rez kill me I log off and try again later. Everyone here seems to agree ghost cams are probably the worste thing that's tolerated by the dev team. 120 scrolls have always required risk, and I DO here your issues. You should not have to see ghost cams outside every spawn, then have a PKer come that kills you with their scripts. They shouldn't move scrolls to tram, they should fix the problems that make getting them so unfair.

You don't see the issue with a player or group of players having that much control in a video game meant for fun and entertainment? The whole power scroll system is broken, and it was made worse by making them usable for pets.

I'm saying you could control it if you wanted to. But you dont, you want developers to give you easy access to end game items. I agree making pets use them was a bad idea. 

No... I'm saying it shouldn't be possible for ANYONE to be able to have that much control over that desirable a commodity. It's not about me. I don't care if I get killed (I actually find the death graphics humorous). It's all about other players having that much control in a game.

Shard bound powerscrolls in Trammel spawns FTW!

Of course the elephant in the room is the cash sale web sites. You could get a transfer token for 2,000 sovereigns ($25) and go to a low population shard. Then you only have to hope not to be jumped and actually get the Power scroll you want. Or you could go to one of the many web sites and pay cash. At the moment a 120 wrestling is going for $6.95. Given the alternatives as they stand I'm not going to criticize anyone who wants to pay and play just please don't deal with that A-- hole Avatar. Last time I looked I counted 4 alternative. 

The fact that they can be sold for real money explains why there are so few on VS.

I and I think the majority of players would prefer not to deal with them but when the alternative is dealing with PKers and the guilds that own the real source, let me get my wallet.

Power scrolls in Treasure chests was a good first steps but I still haven't seen a good argument agains opening up the supply to non Fel arias. Make them much harder in Tram or put them on the UO store but do something.

I would have no problem in tram as long as it promoted group play. Somewhere in the area of an em event in terms of difficulty. Impossible to finish solo or just a couple players.

Just adding them to current ilsh spawns does nothing but further encourage single play. 

While it is uncomfortable to discuss, I think Tim hits the nail on the head. There is an alternative source for powerscrolls that plays hell with the supply and demand for them. 

Pet only powerscrolls as the OP suggested would ease the pressure. Maybe an equitable solution is for full powerscrolls to remain coming from champion spawns, up to 110 powerscrolls to remain from Felucca treasure chests, and then pet only power scrolls available from horde and trove level Trammel treasure chests.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see the logic in all content rewards being available regardless of play style.  There should be items in game that are available to certain play styles that aren't available to others.  This promotes group play and commerce.

I absolutely detest BoDs.  Hate em!  I have fully skilled crafters on 4 or 5 shards... but I don't and won't do BoDs.  However, sometimes I find myself in need of a clothing bless deed... Fort powder... Runics...  I don't complain and whine that I can't get those items killing monsters.... I go and buy them on vendors.

I'm not a super big fan of ships.  They are slow and clumsy... and cannon firing (while improved) is still overly tedious.  But I like having tritons on my tamers and some of the other decorative rewards.  Do I whine and complain that all the high seas rewards should be on other monster loot as well?  No.  I've supplied myself through a combination of doing the content, even though it isn't my favorite, and buying some when I see a good deal.

Fel has power scrolls.  Playing in Fel often requires a playstyle and mindset that comes with much greater risk.  For those willing to endure (or those who enjoy) this playstyle there should be some unique reward.  No one is prevented from going to Fel, just like no one is prevented from doing BoDs or Pirates.  Why should we change the game just because someone wants the reward but doesn't like the content?  There are plenty of ways to mitigate the risks... get scrolls from T-maps, join a Fel guild, make a Fel alliance, build spawning characters on less populated shards.  The only real thing keeping the price of powerscrolls high is the relatively few players willing to take the risk.  But to complain that the price is high while at the same time saying you are unwilling to take the risk... wth people?  At the end of the day there is plenty of high value drops in the tram ruleset.  Go farm the roof for a while and sell the drops until you have enough to by the scrolls you want.

Comparing having to deal with PKers to having to do BoDs or ride on a boat is about the dumbest comparison I've heard in a while.

The pandering to the PK playstyle has been detrimental to the game almost since its inception. The "don't take away the bait" screams get old. If the Fel ruleset is so great, then it should hold up without the power scroll lure just fine.

Of course, everyone that reads these boards knows better.

Tchalla said:

Comparing having to deal with PKers to having to do BoDs or ride on a boat is about the dumbest comparison I've heard in a while.

The pandering to the PK playstyle has been detrimental to the game almost since its inception. The "don't take away the bait" screams get old. If the Fel ruleset is so great, then it should hold up without the power scroll lure just fine.

Of course, everyone that reads these boards knows better.

You only say that because YOU dislike the PKers.  I spawn pretty regularly.  I've been raided and done the raiding.  I will take dealing with PvP over the mind numbing (at least to me) BoD system anyday.  You seem to fall into the same trap that too many other players do... that because YOU don't like it, it must mean no one does, which simply isn't true.  There are players who love pvp just as there are players that love BoDs.  Neither one deserves to be removed from the game based on the dislike of the other group.

Norry said:

Yeah, i stopped trying.

There is no point in trying to get someone so set on their point of veiw to see it from the other side.

Maybe we should make a post about how all trammel droos should be moved to fel, like it was pre aos, bit they woukd just tell us to go play seige.

Right... if Trammel ruleset is so great it shouldn't need any drops for people to play there... *eyeroll*

Pawain said:

This is not PvP. They do not wait until you get to the boss. They pk you during the spawn then run around hoping to res kill you. When you leave they leave.
It's just a player that likes to harass other players.  It should not be a playstyle in 2020s UO.

that is why there is only one facet with fel rulesets. 

not really a reason to take powercrolls out of fel tho. they were always suppose to be a risk v reward situation. you dont have to spawn to get scrolls. you can do multiples of other farmable trammel contents that will get you enough gold to buy them from the people who dont find it as annoying to be in felluca for pretty much the only reason to be there. thats just part of the uo "economy" pvpers are the hunters you are the tailor. they want your cloths you want their furs and meat.

i dunno. i guess my point is its not really a broken system just because you dont feel like dealing with pvp because you want scrolls and think they are priced too high. there is so much of the game you can farm uncontested and get items worth way more than the scrolls. attain and sell these items then buy the scrolls.....  very easy solution that dosnt take the "fun" out of what other people are doing in a sandbox pvp area....

edit: i just realized this thread is 3 pages long. my disclaimer is i didnt read past like post 5 and dont really plan on it. i claim stoned on this one if someone already said these things.

Pretty much. Even gave exampkes of what to farm to sell, and was accused in one way or another of scripting

Merus said:

Tchalla said:

Comparing having to deal with PKers to having to do BoDs or ride on a boat is about the dumbest comparison I've heard in a while.

The pandering to the PK playstyle has been detrimental to the game almost since its inception. The "don't take away the bait" screams get old. If the Fel ruleset is so great, then it should hold up without the power scroll lure just fine.

Of course, everyone that reads these boards knows better.

You only say that because YOU dislike the PKers.  I spawn pretty regularly.  I've been raided and done the raiding.  I will take dealing with PvP over the mind numbing (at least to me) BoD system anyday.  You seem to fall into the same trap that too many other players do... that because YOU don't like it, it must mean no one does, which simply isn't true.  There are players who love pvp just as there are players that love BoDs.  Neither one deserves to be removed from the game based on the dislike of the other group.

I'm saying that the majority of the playerbase doesn't want to deal with it. And how do I know it's the majority? Look at how robust Trammel is... then look at how dead Fel is. It's not about me. I couldn't give two spits about it myself. I pay for the power scrolls. It has never been about me. It's about the people in charge catering to a distinct minority of players that have a history of griefing other players instead of doing the smart thing and placating a majority of players that prefer to not have to deal with mental children that take great pleasure in making other players miserable.

The economy argument is bull as long as there are web sites who's main product is Power scrolls. When enough of the player base would rather "pay to play" to make that a money making proposition there is a problem.

Merus said:

I'm sorry, but I fail to see the logic in all content rewards being available regardless of play style.  There should be items in game that are available to certain play styles that aren't available to others.  This promotes group play and commerce.

I absolutely detest BoDs.  Hate em!  I have fully skilled crafters on 4 or 5 shards... but I don't and won't do BoDs.  However, sometimes I find myself in need of a clothing bless deed... Fort powder... Runics...  I don't complain and whine that I can't get those items killing monsters.... I go and buy them on vendors.

I'm not a super big fan of ships.  They are slow and clumsy... and cannon firing (while improved) is still overly tedious.  But I like having tritons on my tamers and some of the other decorative rewards.  Do I whine and complain that all the high seas rewards should be on other monster loot as well?  No.  I've supplied myself through a combination of doing the content, even though it isn't my favorite, and buying some when I see a good deal.

Fel has power scrolls.  Playing in Fel often requires a playstyle and mindset that comes with much greater risk.  For those willing to endure (or those who enjoy) this playstyle there should be some unique reward.  No one is prevented from going to Fel, just like no one is prevented from doing BoDs or Pirates.  Why should we change the game just because someone wants the reward but doesn't like the content?  There are plenty of ways to mitigate the risks... get scrolls from T-maps, join a Fel guild, make a Fel alliance, build spawning characters on less populated shards.  The only real thing keeping the price of powerscrolls high is the relatively few players willing to take the risk.  But to complain that the price is high while at the same time saying you are unwilling to take the risk... wth people?  At the end of the day there is plenty of high value drops in the tram ruleset.  Go farm the roof for a while and sell the drops until you have enough to by the scrolls you want.

Go farm the roof for a while and sell the drops until you have enough to by the scrolls you want.

The problem with that is, that the vast majority of those pkillers holding tight the Monopoly of Powerscrolls, "also", for the most part, have their PvM characters doing the Roof etc. etc.

So, it is not like they need much of that anyways, because they get them on their own, likely...

I am sorry, but really, at least to my opinion, the way that Powerscrolls have been added to Ultima Online I think has permitted to a small number of players to corner their market and, therefore, gouge their prices as up as they wanted, thus resulting in probably the # 1 cause to the ridicolous inflation that has plagued Ultima Online over the years and that has forced many players to absurd grinding to put together such ridicolously high amounts of gold needed to buy Powerscrolls at those artificially inflated price (because of a cornered market and a Monopolyin the hands of only a few players).

Some players may have endured through such mindless, extensive and wearing grindings, but many many others may have not wanted to get through all of that and thus may have moved on to other games with the result that all of this, may have deprived Ultima Online of their subscriptions and, thus, of revenues much needed for its upkeep and enhancement.

I am convinced that permitting to players to "corner the market" for any items, particularly if highly needed for gameplay such as Powerscrolls are, is extremely detrimental to the overall game because it may alienate those players who have to go through mindless, extensive and wearing grinding to put such high amounts of gold together to afford Powerscrolls purchase.

And it may lose players and subscriptions to the game thus reducing its resources for maintainance and enhancement.

That is why I insist on saying that alternate ways for players to get Powerscrolls should be made available, it is needed to "break" that Monopoly and cornering of the market of only a few players so as to bring prices down to more reasonable and affordable levels from the grandest majority of players.

I insist on saying that up to 115s should have been made available in Treasure Maps across ALL Facets, not only those in Felucca, and a rare chance at getting 120s should have been made available for Hoard and Trove Treasure maps digged in Felucca.

In this way, a reasonable and effective alternative way to get Powerscrolls other then at Champion Spawns would have been made available to players and this would have pacified prices for Powerscrolls making them more affordable across the board for all players, because of increased competition.

That is at least how I see it.

Tchalla said:

Merus said:

Tchalla said:

Comparing having to deal with PKers to having to do BoDs or ride on a boat is about the dumbest comparison I've heard in a while.

The pandering to the PK playstyle has been detrimental to the game almost since its inception. The "don't take away the bait" screams get old. If the Fel ruleset is so great, then it should hold up without the power scroll lure just fine.

Of course, everyone that reads these boards knows better.

You only say that because YOU dislike the PKers.  I spawn pretty regularly.  I've been raided and done the raiding.  I will take dealing with PvP over the mind numbing (at least to me) BoD system anyday.  You seem to fall into the same trap that too many other players do... that because YOU don't like it, it must mean no one does, which simply isn't true.  There are players who love pvp just as there are players that love BoDs.  Neither one deserves to be removed from the game based on the dislike of the other group.

I'm saying that the majority of the playerbase doesn't want to deal with it. And how do I know it's the majority? Look at how robust Trammel is... then look at how dead Fel is. It's not about me. I couldn't give two spits about it myself. I pay for the power scrolls. It has never been about me. It's about the people in charge catering to a distinct minority of players that have a history of griefing other players instead of doing the smart thing and placating a majority of players that prefer to not have to deal with mental children that take great pleasure in making other players miserable.

UO has had pvp in their formula since day 1. They literally moved everything to tram rules except PS. Just because you need to scroll your pet doesn't mean it should get easier.

Merus said:

Tchalla said:

Comparing having to deal with PKers to having to do BoDs or ride on a boat is about the dumbest comparison I've heard in a while.

The pandering to the PK playstyle has been detrimental to the game almost since its inception. The "don't take away the bait" screams get old. If the Fel ruleset is so great, then it should hold up without the power scroll lure just fine.

Of course, everyone that reads these boards knows better.

You only say that because YOU dislike the PKers.  I spawn pretty regularly.  I've been raided and done the raiding.  I will take dealing with PvP over the mind numbing (at least to me) BoD system anyday.  You seem to fall into the same trap that too many other players do... that because YOU don't like it, it must mean no one does, which simply isn't true.  There are players who love pvp just as there are players that love BoDs.  Neither one deserves to be removed from the game based on the dislike of the other group.

Then why have I never gone to a spawn and seen PvPers there doing it?  I go there pop the idol. The PKs show up when they happen to look at that spawn, they kill whoever is there, then wait around to res kill them, then leave if everyone leaves.
Exactly what play style is that other than Griefing?

Pawain said:

Merus said:

Tchalla said:

Comparing having to deal with PKers to having to do BoDs or ride on a boat is about the dumbest comparison I've heard in a while.

The pandering to the PK playstyle has been detrimental to the game almost since its inception. The "don't take away the bait" screams get old. If the Fel ruleset is so great, then it should hold up without the power scroll lure just fine.

Of course, everyone that reads these boards knows better.

You only say that because YOU dislike the PKers.  I spawn pretty regularly.  I've been raided and done the raiding.  I will take dealing with PvP over the mind numbing (at least to me) BoD system anyday.  You seem to fall into the same trap that too many other players do... that because YOU don't like it, it must mean no one does, which simply isn't true.  There are players who love pvp just as there are players that love BoDs.  Neither one deserves to be removed from the game based on the dislike of the other group.

Then why have I never gone to a spawn and seen PvPers there doing it?  I go there pop the idol. The PKs show up when they happen to look at that spawn, they kill whoever is there, then wait around to res kill them, then leave if everyone leaves.
Exactly what play style is that other than Griefing?

If pvpers never do spawns how do they have all the scrolls?  Surely (based on the attitudes in this thread) there isn't enough other people doing them to account for all the scrolls via raiding.  Perhaps they are just a little better at picking when and where to spawn to get their scrolls.

I spawn regularly.  This week I've probably done 8 or so.  Was lucky enough that none of mine were raided.  I also raided 1 spawn.  1 v 1 and I was better than my opponent.  Now, I don't spawn on the same character I use to raid.  PvP on the PvP facet isn't in and of itself griefing.

I don't sell powerscrolls, either on vendors or for $.  I use them on my own characters and pets, or give them away.  In the last couple weeks I gave away two 120 archery scrolls and two 120 magery scrolls.

Xris said:

Tchalla said:

Merus said:

Tchalla said:

Comparing having to deal with PKers to having to do BoDs or ride on a boat is about the dumbest comparison I've heard in a while.

The pandering to the PK playstyle has been detrimental to the game almost since its inception. The "don't take away the bait" screams get old. If the Fel ruleset is so great, then it should hold up without the power scroll lure just fine.

Of course, everyone that reads these boards knows better.

You only say that because YOU dislike the PKers.  I spawn pretty regularly.  I've been raided and done the raiding.  I will take dealing with PvP over the mind numbing (at least to me) BoD system anyday.  You seem to fall into the same trap that too many other players do... that because YOU don't like it, it must mean no one does, which simply isn't true.  There are players who love pvp just as there are players that love BoDs.  Neither one deserves to be removed from the game based on the dislike of the other group.

I'm saying that the majority of the playerbase doesn't want to deal with it. And how do I know it's the majority? Look at how robust Trammel is... then look at how dead Fel is. It's not about me. I couldn't give two spits about it myself. I pay for the power scrolls. It has never been about me. It's about the people in charge catering to a distinct minority of players that have a history of griefing other players instead of doing the smart thing and placating a majority of players that prefer to not have to deal with mental children that take great pleasure in making other players miserable.

UO has had pvp in their formula since day 1. They literally moved everything to tram rules except PS. Just because you need to scroll your pet doesn't mean it should get easier.

Power scrolls didn't exist when the split happened. Power scrolls were added to Fel because the PvPers were pissing and moaning that Fel was dead and they needed something to lure people back. It's as simple as that.

Tchalla said:

Merus said:

Tchalla said:

Comparing having to deal with PKers to having to do BoDs or ride on a boat is about the dumbest comparison I've heard in a while.

The pandering to the PK playstyle has been detrimental to the game almost since its inception. The "don't take away the bait" screams get old. If the Fel ruleset is so great, then it should hold up without the power scroll lure just fine.

Of course, everyone that reads these boards knows better.

You only say that because YOU dislike the PKers.  I spawn pretty regularly.  I've been raided and done the raiding.  I will take dealing with PvP over the mind numbing (at least to me) BoD system anyday.  You seem to fall into the same trap that too many other players do... that because YOU don't like it, it must mean no one does, which simply isn't true.  There are players who love pvp just as there are players that love BoDs.  Neither one deserves to be removed from the game based on the dislike of the other group.

I'm saying that the majority of the playerbase doesn't want to deal with it. And how do I know it's the majority? Look at how robust Trammel is... then look at how dead Fel is. It's not about me. I couldn't give two spits about it myself. I pay for the power scrolls. It has never been about me. It's about the people in charge catering to a distinct minority of players that have a history of griefing other players instead of doing the smart thing and placating a majority of players that prefer to not have to deal with mental children that take great pleasure in making other players miserable.

You and I must have a very different definition of robust.  I will grant you that most of the activity is in the tram based facets... but that is because most of the desirable content is in the tram based facets.  I also think you find far more of the "mental children" in tram... just look at some of the griefing that goes on at EM events, or some of the shenanigans that go along with elections, or some of the nonsense with the current invasions.  The simple truth is that there are some a$$hat$ who play our game... they aren't going anywhere, and they aren't an excuse to remove content.

I am also guessing that the number of players who do BoDs would also be in the minority.... that isn't justification for getting rid of content either.

PvP has always had a place in UO, and IMO it should continue.  Like all specific playstyles, I do believe it should have unique rewards for those who participate in it.

Surprised I haven't seen this thread and commented.

Trammel should not have any loot drops full stop, it should be deleted, or, it should be a safe space for meeting, talking, housing, training and crafting. This notion you then get free loot given out on top of it is ridiculous. Point 1. (The economy would not be in such bad shape - scrolls wouldn't even cost 80m, if gold and loot drops only occurred in Felucca, you would not be able to script farm all day long with zero risk and just constantly and exponentially increase the gold supply). See Siege - where the economy is in the correct shape and you can actually farm gold for anything you need.

Point 2. No Powerscrolls should not go to Trammel, and there should not be separate pet ones - again, the interlinking of the game aspects between playstyles and roles is what it is all about, there should be more interlinking, not less. There used to be Player Towns, where you all grouped together, to offer support and help between roles - now it's become a 1 player game, which is the downfall.

And point 3. What about 200m Cameos and stuff from Roof in Trammel? Tamers churn through Roof all day long, with ZERO RISK. The highest value drops remain in Trammel, which is a nonsense. I've never had a Cameo drop. Get one of those, buy 3 of your 120 scrolls. 200m Event Drops. 200m Slithers. Invasion 50% SDI Spellbooks 250m.

Point 4, I'm currently knocking off say 5 spawns per day, I'm never raided, I usually go with say 2 other people, we do them in 30 minutes. Just mix up where you go, PvPers are notoriously lazy, and DO NOT SCOUT - 99% will not walk further than Yew Gate. Except on Atlantic, where everything is so gold driven it's insane and they do have spawn cams. The only main scouting run pvpers do, is Despise, though to Destard, then maybe Terra to Star Room. Do not do those spawns, it's just stupid. There are about 15 other spawns, which in total, take about 30 minutes to scout, and pvpers will not do it, maybe once a day maximum if you are hardcore like me.

Tim said:

The economy argument is bull as long as there are web sites who's main product is Power scrolls. When enough of the player base would rather "pay to play" to make that a money making proposition there is a problem.

There is a problem with the players mentality and attitude in my opinion.

Cookie said:

Surprised I haven't seen this thread and commented.

Trammel should not have any loot drops full stop, it should be deleted, or, it should be a safe space for meeting, talking, housing, training and crafting. This notion you then get free loot given out on top of it is ridiculous. Point 1. (The economy would not be in such bad shape - scrolls wouldn't even cost 80m, if gold and loot drops only occurred in Felucca, you would not be able to script farm all day long with zero risk and just constantly and exponentially increase the gold supply). See Siege - where the economy is in the correct shape and you can actually farm gold for anything you need.

Point 2. No Powerscrolls should not go to Trammel, and there should not be separate pet ones - again, the interlinking of the game aspects between playstyles and roles is what it is all about, there should be more interlinking, not less. There used to be Player Towns, where you all grouped together, to offer support and help between roles - now it's become a 1 player game, which is the downfall.

And point 3. What about 200m Cameos and stuff from Roof in Trammel? Tamers churn through Roof all day long, with ZERO RISK. The highest value drops remain in Trammel, which is a nonsense. I've never had a Cameo drop. Get one of those, buy 3 of your 120 scrolls. 200m Event Drops. 200m Slithers. Invasion 50% SDI Spellbooks 250m.

Point 4, I'm currently knocking off say 5 spawns per day, I'm never raided, I usually go with say 2 other people, we do them in 30 minutes. Just mix up where you go, PvPers are notoriously lazy, and DO NOT SCOUT - 99% will not walk further than Yew Gate. Except on Atlantic, where everything is so gold driven it's insane and they do have spawn cams. The only main scouting run pvpers do, is Despise, though to Destard, then maybe Terra to Star Room. Do not do those spawns, it's just stupid. There are about 15 other spawns, which in total, take about 30 minutes to scout, and pvpers will not do it, maybe once a day maximum if you are hardcore like me.

I am afraid that I cannot agree, and this, for the simple reason that, to my opinion, the # ONE reason for prices getting out of whack and becoming crazy is AVAILABILITY of those items which, in turn, drives prices downwards because of COMPETITION.

Well before pets needed Powerscrolls, prices where already extremely high for Powerscrolls and THAT drove UO inflation up the roof since a very limited number of players controlling the Powerscrolls' spawns would basically Corner their Market and set whatever prices they wanted for them...

Guess what ? Most of these players decided to set prices for Powerscrolls higher and higher and some more higher...

Couple that with other items drops which where hard to come by and required a ridicolous amount of time invested into midless grinding whose players getting them would "also" set their prices as ridicolously high to A ) - reflect the time invested into trying to get them and B ) - To get sufficient gold to buy the Powerscrolld which they needed for their Templates, and one gets a pretty good idea of why inflation in Ultima Online went up the roof and beyond....

AVAILABILITY, this is was screwed up UO's economy, to my opinion...

THEN, starting from the Asian shards, even before Shard Shield Transfers, some players started to get Powerscrolls from Asian Shards and sell them to Western Shards but this, was still not sufficient to contain the rampant inflation.... at most, some lucky players on Western Shards would be able to save up a bit when having to buy this or that Powerscroll but it was not significant enough to make a dent to UO's rampant inflation...

THEN, Shard Shields came and players started to more actively go to lower populated Shards to farm for Powerscrolls and bring them to other more populated Shards to sell them and THIS, started to make that dent into Powerscrolls inflated prices.... some, though, would still remain way too high priced, IMHO.....

Then came Pets' Training which totally screwed up again the economy bringing back the problem of Powerscrolls availability which pushed the prices for all those Powerscrolls which now were also needed for pets (and a single Tamer may have MANY pets to want to scroll up....).

So, as we can see, the issue here is AVAILABILITY of items which drive prices up and screws the economy driving up crazily the inflation.

When a handfull of players PREVENT other players from doing Champion Spawns for powerscrolls and sit on their scrolls to artificially drive their prices up (corner the market, so to speak...) so that they can ask whatever they want for a Powerscroll, because they have the Monopoly of them, this is BAD for the game, overall, to my opinion, because it can drive players AWAY from the game since they then have to alienate themselves into a mindless grinding gameplay which gets old and boring after a while.

And they LEAVE the game, stop paying their subscriptions and, thus, Ultima Online reduces its capacity of resources for it upkeep and enhancement.

So, in order to BREAK such a Monopoly, the only one way that I see as possible is to significantly INCREASE the availability of Powerscrolls so that, through pricing competition, prices would go down....

As I said, making Powerscrolls available in Treasure Chests was a step in the right direction to increase such availability and thus prices to go down, finally, but it was TOO LITTLE and stopped TOO SHORT.

To my opinion, in order to significantly increase the availability of Powerscrolls so as to drive their prices down, Powerscrolls up to 115s should have been made available on ALL facets, with 120s having a rare chance to show up in Hoard and Trove Chests on the Felucca Facet.

Even through binding, one needs to gather 10 x 115s to make a 120 and to find all same 115s it is not like one does 10 Treasure Maps, but they will need to be a whole lot more before one can find 10 of the same kind of 115s....

So, it would still take a considerable time to find enough 115s through Treasure Hunting to make a 120.

With 110s, it is quite impossible, me thinks, it takes 12x 110s to make a 115 and then 10x 115s to make a 120. That means, that some 120 SAME TYPE 110s are needed to make a 120.

That means, a WHOLE LOT of Treasure Maps, possibly thousands, before one can find 120 of the same exact type 110s.

And since a Treasure Map has a 1% chance of showing up on a Monster, that means a HUGE amount of Monsters' killing before one can find all those Maps to be then digged up to make a 120.

So, as I said, the CURRENT mechanics that limits up to 110s in Treasure Chests and only in Felucca, does not make even a tiny little dent into the availability for 120 Powerscrolls.

Hence, prices for them remain ridicolusly high due to the Monopoly of just a few players controlling their Spawn and, availability.

At least, that is how I see it.

The Rampant Inflation can only happen, because there is too much gold in the game. Yes - availability is the other side of supply/demand/gold supply equation But;

1. It is not just happening to powerscrolls, it is happening to everything, all the previous items I mentioned.

2. Again, look at Siege, a pure Feluccan shard, where the economy has stayed balanced, because gold generation is maintained at the correct pace.

Both of the above points, debunk your Availability theory. Players are farming them non stop all over. The problem is down to too much gold being in the system which is driving the prices of everything up.

Having said that, it is a true fact, that even for me, farming them all the time, we don't see a 120 every drop. I got a 120 Anatomy today, I got a 120 Resist 2 days ago. It is 1x120 per say 5 spawns sometimes. It's hard work, the same as Cameo's, 50% SDI Invasion Spellbooks, and Event Items. As someone said, you cannot enjoy every aspect of the game, and this is one aspect where they really have got the balance correct, so there is absolutely no point messing it up.

I do accept availability is part of the equation, but it is not actually the driving part here, and it is not out of balance.

You can do something about the Availability issue right here, right now, yourself. Go out and farm some, get a team together - this is a sandbox game, this is the entire point of it!!!!!!!!!! You write your own Destiny.

People like you, the perceived monopoly, the injustice is all in your mind. You just want to play a victim. I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm trying to help you see. I once had a Director took me outside at work, and he said, I'm sick of you playing the victim here, you can change everything yourself if you don't like it, and whilst he pissed me off, he was correct, so I went inside, and I changed everything.

Cookie said:

The Rampant Inflation can only happen, because there is too much gold in the game. Yes - availability is the other side of supply/demand/gold supply equation But;

1. It is not just happening to powerscrolls, it is happening to everything, all the previous items I mentioned.

2. Again, look at Siege, a pure Feluccan shard, where the economy has stayed balanced, because gold generation is maintained at the correct pace.

Both of the above points, debunk your Availability theory. Players are farming them non stop all over. The problem is down to too much gold being in the system which is driving the prices of everything up.

Having said that, it is a true fact, that even for me, farming them all the time, we don't see a 120 every drop. I got a 120 Anatomy today, I got a 120 Resist 2 days ago. It is 1x120 per say 5 spawns sometimes. It's hard work, the same as Cameo's, 50% SDI Invasion Spellbooks, and Event Items. As someone said, you cannot enjoy every aspect of the game, and this is one aspect where they really have got the balance correct, so there is absolutely no point messing it up.

I do accept availability is part of the equation, but it is not actually the driving part here, and it is not out of balance.

You can do something about the Availability issue right here, right now, yourself. Go out and farm some, get a team together - this is a sandbox game, this is the entire point of it!!!!!!!!!! You write your own Destiny.

People like you, the perceived monopoly, the injustice is all in your mind. You just want to play a victim. I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm trying to help you see. I once had a Director took me outside at work, and he said, I'm sick of you playing the victim here, you can change everything yourself if you don't like it, and whilst he pissed me off, he was correct, so I went inside, and I changed everything.

Well, it is debatable whether players can or not change things in UO and in particular with Powerscrolls....

There is an inherent problem with PvP.... and it is, that while many do it fair and square, unfortunately, there is others who, instead, use "out of the way" means, tricks, hacks, perhaps even cheats, to gain themselves that edge over others...

Ghost Cams and Hidden EJs Cams scripted and AFK being only one of the cheats which "some" players may put to use to cut others out of making those changes by themselves which you mention...

A lot of players do not want to get into any of that and, therefore, they simply do not want to mess with PvP if they may have a good chance to bump into other players using those cheats and hacks to gain themselves an edge....

I happen to think that, these players who do not want to deal with PvP because they do not want to deal with the "issues" sometimes connected to PvP, not all of PvP, but of some PvP I hope we can agree with,  should have reasonable, effective and functional ways to get their Powerscrolls and this should not mean go to grind for gold to then be able to afford their exorbitant prices set by those few who control their availability.

Putting 110s in Treasure Chests only in Felucca simply does not do it.... it is not enough, way too many same 110s are needed to bind into a 120 and while 1 character might need 1 Tactics or Anatomy or some other 120, a tamer may need 10 or more of those for all of his/her tamed pets....

It is flat out impossible to come by all 120s a player might need, using Treasure Hunting as it is.

Reducing artificially the availability of these Powerscrolls because the mechanics consent to just a handfull of players to control them and corner the Market is, to my opinion, definitively a game stopper for many players who then cannot scroll up their pets as they might want or need, besides wanting or having to fullfill the 120s needs of their templates.

And this for what ?

To make those few players who control those spawns be able to become uber wealthy in Ultima Online?

Are we serious ?

Really, @Bleak and @Kyronix ?

How can you think that the Status Quo which reduces the availability of Powerscrolls and keeps driving up inflation in UO as well as forcing many players into alienating grinding to put together the gold to buy them might be a good thing, overall for Ultima Online ?

Personally, I happen to think it is not, and that the availability of 120s should be significantly increased.

Which it does not mean making them drop more often at Champion Spawns, this would do very little since, I would expect those few players controlling their Monopoly, to just put them in Powerscroll Books to sit there and thus continue to keep Cornering their Market by artificially making them scarce.

No.

The only way to make the availability of 120s increase, and thus prices finally go down for them, is by introducing "alternate" ways for ordinary, non PvP players to be able to get them with mechanics that no player could control in any possible way.

Only in such a way, 120s would become more available, noone could control their availability, and their prices would finally go down due to pricing competition.

You basically want them on tap. That's not pricing competition, that's over-supply.

Whilst you maintain the price rate and playstyle of all the Trammel High-End items? Just wondering. Because I'd like an alternate way to get all the Trammel rewards, via a Feluccan playstyle.

I believe, if you joined our guild for a bit, you would "see" the other side, and see how simple, yet how effective it all is. Or any Guild that does all gaming content. It's not this huge monopoly controlled by the Uber Wealthy you think it is. To describe us as such is quite laughable - we just play the game.

I believe the better way to buy power scrolls on many shards is through general chat. Many players don't put them on vendors, or put them on at silly prices, because they want them to go to players on their shard, not bought up and shipped to Atlantic. I very often see them sold for far lower prices through chat.

GymCookie said:

Surprised I haven't seen this thread and commented.

Trammel should not have any loot drops full stop, it should be deleted, or, it should be a safe space for meeting, talking, housing, training and crafting. This notion you then get free loot given out on top of it is ridiculous. Point 1. (The economy would not be in such bad shape - scrolls wouldn't even cost 80m, if gold and loot drops only occurred in Felucca, you would not be able to script farm all day long with zero risk and just constantly and exponentially increase the gold supply). See Siege - where the economy is in the correct shape and you can actually farm gold for anything you need.

Point 2. No Powerscrolls should not go to Trammel, and there should not be separate pet ones - again, the interlinking of the game aspects between playstyles and roles is what it is all about, there should be more interlinking, not less. There used to be Player Towns, where you all grouped together, to offer support and help between roles - now it's become a 1 player game, which is the downfall.

And point 3. What about 200m Cameos and stuff from Roof in Trammel? Tamers churn through Roof all day long, with ZERO RISK. The highest value drops remain in Trammel, which is a nonsense. I've never had a Cameo drop. Get one of those, buy 3 of your 120 scrolls. 200m Event Drops. 200m Slithers. Invasion 50% SDI Spellbooks 250m.

Point 4, I'm currently knocking off say 5 spawns per day, I'm never raided, I usually go with say 2 other people, we do them in 30 minutes. Just mix up where you go, PvPers are notoriously lazy, and DO NOT SCOUT - 99% will not walk further than Yew Gate. Except on Atlantic, where everything is so gold driven it's insane and they do have spawn cams. The only main scouting run pvpers do, is Despise, though to Destard, then maybe Terra to Star Room. Do not do those spawns, it's just stupid. There are about 15 other spawns, which in total, take about 30 minutes to scout, and pvpers will not do it, maybe once a day maximum if you are hardcore like me.

If there was no trammel, the game would have ended in 2004.

That's the short version of what popps tried to say. I'm glad you had to read all of his novel. Now you know how deflating fel is.

popps said:

Cookie said:

The Rampant Inflation can only happen, because there is too much gold in the game. Yes - availability is the other side of supply/demand/gold supply equation But;

1. It is not just happening to powerscrolls, it is happening to everything, all the previous items I mentioned.

2. Again, look at Siege, a pure Feluccan shard, where the economy has stayed balanced, because gold generation is maintained at the correct pace.

Both of the above points, debunk your Availability theory. Players are farming them non stop all over. The problem is down to too much gold being in the system which is driving the prices of everything up.

Having said that, it is a true fact, that even for me, farming them all the time, we don't see a 120 every drop. I got a 120 Anatomy today, I got a 120 Resist 2 days ago. It is 1x120 per say 5 spawns sometimes. It's hard work, the same as Cameo's, 50% SDI Invasion Spellbooks, and Event Items. As someone said, you cannot enjoy every aspect of the game, and this is one aspect where they really have got the balance correct, so there is absolutely no point messing it up.

I do accept availability is part of the equation, but it is not actually the driving part here, and it is not out of balance.

You can do something about the Availability issue right here, right now, yourself. Go out and farm some, get a team together - this is a sandbox game, this is the entire point of it!!!!!!!!!! You write your own Destiny.

People like you, the perceived monopoly, the injustice is all in your mind. You just want to play a victim. I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm trying to help you see. I once had a Director took me outside at work, and he said, I'm sick of you playing the victim here, you can change everything yourself if you don't like it, and whilst he pissed me off, he was correct, so I went inside, and I changed everything.

Well, it is debatable whether players can or not change things in UO and in particular with Powerscrolls....

There is an inherent problem with PvP.... and it is, that while many do it fair and square, unfortunately, there is others who, instead, use "out of the way" means, tricks, hacks, perhaps even cheats, to gain themselves that edge over others...

Ghost Cams and Hidden EJs Cams scripted and AFK being only one of the cheats which "some" players may put to use to cut others out of making those changes by themselves which you mention...

A lot of players do not want to get into any of that and, therefore, they simply do not want to mess with PvP if they may have a good chance to bump into other players using those cheats and hacks to gain themselves an edge....

I happen to think that, these players who do not want to deal with PvP because they do not want to deal with the "issues" sometimes connected to PvP, not all of PvP, but of some PvP I hope we can agree with,  should have reasonable, effective and functional ways to get their Powerscrolls and this should not mean go to grind for gold to then be able to afford their exorbitant prices set by those few who control their availability.

Putting 110s in Treasure Chests only in Felucca simply does not do it.... it is not enough, way too many same 110s are needed to bind into a 120 and while 1 character might need 1 Tactics or Anatomy or some other 120, a tamer may need 10 or more of those for all of his/her tamed pets....

It is flat out impossible to come by all 120s a player might need, using Treasure Hunting as it is.

Reducing artificially the availability of these Powerscrolls because the mechanics consent to just a handfull of players to control them and corner the Market is, to my opinion, definitively a game stopper for many players who then cannot scroll up their pets as they might want or need, besides wanting or having to fullfill the 120s needs of their templates.

And this for what ?

To make those few players who control those spawns be able to become uber wealthy in Ultima Online?

Are we serious ?

Really, @ Bleak and @ Kyronix ?

How can you think that the Status Quo which reduces the availability of Powerscrolls and keeps driving up inflation in UO as well as forcing many players into alienating grinding to put together the gold to buy them might be a good thing, overall for Ultima Online ?

Personally, I happen to think it is not, and that the availability of 120s should be significantly increased.

Which it does not mean making them drop more often at Champion Spawns, this would do very little since, I would expect those few players controlling their Monopoly, to just put them in Powerscroll Books to sit there and thus continue to keep Cornering their Market by artificially making them scarce.

No.

The only way to make the availability of 120s increase, and thus prices finally go down for them, is by introducing "alternate" ways for ordinary, non PvP players to be able to get them with mechanics that no player could control in any possible way.

Only in such a way, 120s would become more available, noone could control their availability, and their prices would finally go down due to pricing competition.

There is equally as much, if not more, cheating that goes on to farm content in Tram than there is in Fel for pvp.  I think most players wish all of it could be fixed, but that is a ship that sailed a long time ago.

I consider myself half-way decent at pvp, but far from those who are really good at it.  If the cheating, zerg guilds really had the stangle hold on power scrolls you claim they do, there is no way I would be able to get them with solo play... yet I seem to manage just fine getting the ones that I need and have enough to give some away.  If you pop Despise on Atl during evening prime time of course you're going to get raided.  Pop an out of the way T2A spawn on Legends and you can probably run it for hours without any issues.  I think the real issue with tooo many people is that they just want powerscrolls on easy mode.  They don't care that powerscrolls actually are already attainable by pretty much anyone, they just want to keep complaining.

If there was no trammel, the game would have ended in 2004.

you understand this game rose to popularity without trammel yes? you understand that this game hemoraged players with the advent of age of shadows yes? you can like what you like but dont let your personal bias blind you to the facts.


im not sure you can actually find sub numbers for the time frame. but i personally know of entire pvp guilds that quit the days and weeks after age of shadows. this wasnt an isolated incident there was a sharp decline on most servers

drindeth said:

If there was no trammel, the game would have ended in 2004.

you understand this game rose to popularity without trammel yes? you understand that this game hemoraged players with the advent of age of shadows yes? you can like what you like but dont let your personal bias blind you to the facts.

Sorry. Many of us left before AoS. Then came back and stayed because of it.

If playing in NPC armor is so popular, why are there not guilds that do it? 
Look at the population charts.

People left at AoS because the game did a 180 and became gear driven. Remember 4fc mages?I think a lot of people have their own UO history in their head. UO was poppin before and after tram. Make pet PS, leave player PS in fel. If getting rez killed is griefing, then every game I've played ive been "bullied" on. I get camped on WoW all the time, it's no different than UO. 

talking to you is like talking to a brick wall my guy. 

that npc armor thing makes no sense. and brings me to the conclusion you never really played much back in the day if you think it was all just an npc armor thing that made the game good. you cannot replicate pre aos pvp by wearing npc armor. the mechanics are not the same.

and that is fine you didnt play in it but your arguments are completely bias. i want you to realize this, you cant just say "take fel out because i dont like it so that means the entire playerbase dosnt like it either" just like i cant say "take tram out because i dont like it and everyone i know dosnt like it either"

so if you lose 50% of the playerbase and get 20% to come back and "stay" because the shards are so populated now..... is that a net positive for the game? i know people to this day that still pay for accounts to keep houses in a game they most likely will never log into.

where are these population numbers you speak of i would really like to see them. by the sounds of it they are completely fabricated numbers. and its very hard to get an accurate number. because imo 1 player with 5 active subs to multibox should not be reflected in this number which im sure it is.

Norry said:

You can buy 110's for 20-40k on atl.

Those are gotten most often.

If you play anywhere other than atl, you will not be pked doing tmaps.

I tried to offer other ideas, and ways for you to get scrolls or money to buy them. It is not hard.

Just farming fan dancers you could make 500 mil+ a day.

ActionElly said:

Norry said:

You can buy 110's for 20-40k on atl.

Those are gotten most often.

If you play anywhere other than atl, you will not be pked doing tmaps.

I tried to offer other ideas, and ways for you to get scrolls or money to buy them. It is not hard.

Just farming fan dancers you could make 500 mil+ a day.

As Popps accurately said before it's a major grind and an insult to anyone with any intelligence once they realize how much you're getting screwed doing scroll binders. You MIGHT get a 120 in a few years.

Second, how in the world do you make 500 mil in one day killing fan dancers? like literally 24 hours? this is also an insult.

Just face it, it's bs and we all know it. 🙂

I'd be fine with them lowering the amount of scrolls for binders. Seems like a compromise to me.

drindeth said:

so if you lose 50% of the playerbase and get 20% to come back and "stay" because the shards are so populated now..... is that a net positive for the game? i know people to this day that still pay for accounts to keep houses in a game they most likely will never log into.

Where do you see 50% of the player base in Fel?  And you say I fabricate numbers.

I saw many returning players come back and do a champ spawn only to be PKed over and over before they completed the spawn. Then they never returned.  Reminds me of the good ole days...  Wasted opportunity to get more players during the pandemic.

Time to change!

ActionElly said:

Norry said:

You can buy 110's for 20-40k on atl.

Those are gotten most often.

If you play anywhere other than atl, you will not be pked doing tmaps.

I tried to offer other ideas, and ways for you to get scrolls or money to buy them. It is not hard.

Just farming fan dancers you could make 500 mil+ a day.

As Popps accurately said before it's a major grind and an insult to anyone with any intelligence once they realize how much you're getting screwed doing scroll binders. You MIGHT get a 120 in a few years.

Second, how in the world do you make 500 mil in one day killing fan dancers? like literally 24 hours? this is also an insult.

Just face it, it's bs and we all know it. 🙂

ActionElly said:

As Popps accurately said before it's a major grind and an insult to anyone with any intelligence once they realize how much you're getting screwed doing scroll binders. You MIGHT get a 120 in a few years.

Ok, yesterday, I used about 50 scroll binders, and put together say another 5 x 120's. These things don't happen overnight, but they are part of the playstyle. This is just a nice little bonus along the way. So again, I don't believe scroll binders are useless, and I bought them off some crafter, who benefitted.

Norry, Xris, Merus, DrIndeth, yep, completely agreeing with your posts, that's how I see it, it's how anyone who actually goes out to play and experiences it see's it.

ActionElly said:

Norry said:

You can buy 110's for 20-40k on atl.

Those are gotten most often.

If you play anywhere other than atl, you will not be pked doing tmaps.

I tried to offer other ideas, and ways for you to get scrolls or money to buy them. It is not hard.

Just farming fan dancers you could make 500 mil+ a day.

As Popps accurately said before it's a major grind and an insult to anyone with any intelligence once they realize how much you're getting screwed doing scroll binders. You MIGHT get a 120 in a few years.

Second, how in the world do you make 500 mil in one day killing fan dancers? like literally 24 hours? this is also an insult.

Just face it, it's bs and we all know it. 🙂

https://community.stratics.com/threads/buying-splinter-weapons-in-description.417057/

Fan dancers is a very popular location for these kinds of drops... and it's in .... wait for it...
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
TRAM... go figure.

Merus said:

ActionElly said:

Norry said:

You can buy 110's for 20-40k on atl.

Those are gotten most often.

If you play anywhere other than atl, you will not be pked doing tmaps.

I tried to offer other ideas, and ways for you to get scrolls or money to buy them. It is not hard.

Just farming fan dancers you could make 500 mil+ a day.

As Popps accurately said before it's a major grind and an insult to anyone with any intelligence once they realize how much you're getting screwed doing scroll binders. You MIGHT get a 120 in a few years.

Second, how in the world do you make 500 mil in one day killing fan dancers? like literally 24 hours? this is also an insult.

Just face it, it's bs and we all know it. 🙂

https://community.stratics.com/threads/buying-splinter-weapons-in-description.417057/

Fan dancers is a very popular location for these kinds of drops... and it's in .... wait for it...
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
TRAM... go figure.

Pawain said:

drindeth said:

so if you lose 50% of the playerbase and get 20% to come back and "stay" because the shards are so populated now..... is that a net positive for the game? i know people to this day that still pay for accounts to keep houses in a game they most likely will never log into.

Where do you see 50% of the player base in Fel?  And you say I fabricate numbers.

I saw many returning players come back and do a champ spawn only to be PKed over and over before they completed the spawn. Then they never returned.  Reminds me of the good ole days...  Wasted opportunity to get more players during the pandemic.

Time to change!

see.... a brick wall.

my numbers were made up as an example. you never gave me any numbers so i was talking about whatever site you got the information from not you...

 im just trying to get you to realize just because pawain thinks it does not mean its what everyone wants and should be done immediatly. you get so defensive when someone does not agree with you 100%. its wierd dude. 

and if someone quit because they went to fel and got pked.... that is sad for their character, mabey you should have talked them into how great tram is and that they would not get pked instead of just watching them get pked over and over until they quit. perhaps you should have taught them how to make gold in tram and buy the things they need like a normal person. 

it all comes down to some ppl have fun in a sandbox pvp world some people dont and thats ok. the beuty of this game is you dont have to participate if you dont want. you can put a little effort into something else and still get the stuff from there. not every single thing in the game has to be attainable by every single player. it is ok to have to rely on other people for the things you cannot get yourself. thats part of an mmo.... but to just say "this should be in tram because we cant easily farm it uncontested" its a fine opinion i guess but in my mind its completely unreasonable

Townie said:

Merus said:

ActionElly said:

Norry said:

You can buy 110's for 20-40k on atl.

Those are gotten most often.

If you play anywhere other than atl, you will not be pked doing tmaps.

I tried to offer other ideas, and ways for you to get scrolls or money to buy them. It is not hard.

Just farming fan dancers you could make 500 mil+ a day.

As Popps accurately said before it's a major grind and an insult to anyone with any intelligence once they realize how much you're getting screwed doing scroll binders. You MIGHT get a 120 in a few years.

Second, how in the world do you make 500 mil in one day killing fan dancers? like literally 24 hours? this is also an insult.

Just face it, it's bs and we all know it. 🙂

https://community.stratics.com/threads/buying-splinter-weapons-in-description.417057/

Fan dancers is a very popular location for these kinds of drops... and it's in .... wait for it...
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
TRAM... go figure.

The problem is the majority of players don't know what mod's make an item desirable so they have no idea if something is worth looting. I often wonder how many good items don't ever get looted because of this the itemization in the game is way to complex for the casual player that doesn't understand min/maxing.

Sounds like a personal problem.

Just wondering 

question to both sides 
can you see any compromise 
take a moment to think about what could help each other out some middle ground 
This has been a hot topic many times 

example only 
maybe allow 110s in tram 115 from tmaps in fel 
105 drop in mid level monsters both fel and tram 

honestly I feel pet ps should have been added right out the gate with pet revamp and dropped all ps on both facets  

Just make lower level scroll bindable at the rate like armor refiniments or something like this, will keep the scrolls in fel and give better ratio to ppl treasure hunting those scrolls

drindeth said:

and if someone quit because they went to fel and got pked.... that is sad for their character.

Maybe you do not understand that thousands of People have stopped playing UO because some jerk forcibly extends their play style to them.

As the OP suggested I think pet scrolls in Trammel chests are the best compromise.

Our PVP friends seem to want to maintain the status quo. That's fine, they're trying to hang on to their gameplay style. 

Our PVM friends are trying to make the case that the system doesn't work. And I mean -the system- here as in the gameplay mechanic around obtaining powerscrolls not the personal choice of playing in Felucca or not. 

Expanding the pet training system by adding those scrolls either in Trammel chests or in some fun new mechanic does a few things:

1. It allows our PVP and champion spawn hunters to maintain their markets on player powerscrolls which I believe everyone agrees are more vital for player builds than pet builds.
2. Brings the market back down to more acceptable levels while still keeping them relatively rare.
3. Opens up more pet experimentation for seasoned tamers and lets new tamers play around a bit more as they work up their pets.

Here is my taje on this thing and i am by no means an expert: each account can have 7 chars and each char at any given tine can have 6 120 skills but - a tamer can have what? 20+ animal in the stalls scrollables to 120? I think when then they redid taming, they should have redid the ratio the scrolls bind at. Thay would have brought better supply of scrolls at same demand, just my 2 cents. 

Dino said:

I think it's wrong to limit the problem to PowerScrolls and PvP.
The question is always how much time you are willing to spend on things
you don't like to achieve your goals. When most of the mechanics were
developed in this game, the economy was still reasonably good. Nowadays,
any alternative to Champion Spawns is, in my opinion, an almost
unreasonable amount of time. I very much hope that the announced
expansion will change something in this direction. Otherwise, I'm afraid
that the servers will continue to empty and the lights will go out at 
some point.

@Dino What announced expansion? Did I miss an announcement?

Pawain said:

drindeth said:

and if someone quit because they went to fel and got pked.... that is sad for their character.

Maybe you do not understand that thousands of People have stopped playing UO because some jerk forcibly extends their play style to them.

All we ask for is a switch. Let us fight Monsters in Fel without somebody harassing us.

But yall have to change the subject because you know that few people actually want un consensual PvP.  Fact.  No numbers needed.  

i mean there is a trammel.... u can kill monsters in tram without contention. but you have your blinders on you see your point of view and nobody elses. "we the 4 people on the forums who complain about felluca constantly"  all you are advocating for is to take the last reason to go to felluca away and i think that is a bad idea for the game as a whole. pvpers and pvmers.

there has to be a better reason than just "i cant farm it without people killing me" thats rediculous


and you are the only one who keeps bringing up numbers...... thousands guy? really? plz.

Nobody says to take powerscrolls out of Fel.  Just add consensual PvP.  You can kill each other since you think that is popular.  Will be a lot more challenging than killing a tamer that is not built for PvP.

How about a compromise?  A few Trammel rule set shards where you can't transfer to or from. The Fel facet still has champ spawns that drop 120 scrolls but there is no PvP to worry about.

Personally I would jump to one of those shards immediately like I did when Trammel was created.

Pawain said:

Nobody says to take powerscrolls out of Fel.  Just add consensual PvP.  You can kill each other since you think that is popular.  Will be a lot more challenging than killing a tamer that is not built for PvP.

trammel IS your toggle for consensual pvp. why the hell would they let you toggle pvp on and off in the only facet that even allows pvp? what sense does that even make. im quickly learning this game has a huge snowflake problem. amoung other things.

TimSt said:

How about a compromise?  A few Trammel rule set shards where you can't transfer to or from. The Fel facet still has champ spawns that drop 120 scrolls but there is no PvP to worry about.

Personally I would jump to one of those shards immediately like I did when Trammel was created.

This used to be my idea, you will see many of my posts in the past trying to go for this - although I think you wrote this incorrectly? No PvP? The Felucca facet would have everything, PvM, PvP, Crafting, the entire gameplay, that's the point, complete balance and interlinking gameplay.

Everyone I know, is only going one place 🙂

You wouldn't even notice or miss the rest.

Name the 2 busiest shards? Name which 2 shards the pvpers are on... Oh, coincidence or not?

drindeth said:

If there was no trammel, the game would have ended in 2004.

you understand this game rose to popularity without trammel yes? you understand that this game hemoraged players with the advent of age of shadows yes? you can like what you like but dont let your personal bias blind you to the facts.


im not sure you can actually find sub numbers for the time frame. but i personally know of entire pvp guilds that quit the days and weeks after age of shadows. this wasnt an isolated incident there was a sharp decline on most servers

@drindeth

 Check this out .......... https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaphKoster/20180627/320893/A_brief_history_of_murder_in_Ultima_Online.php

Trammeling players

By 2000, I was off the project, working instead on a series of pitches for new MMOs that Origin might make. And while I was doing that, the team’s new design leadership arrived at a new solution that put paid to the early wild and crazy era of UO forever: the Trammel/Felucca split.Simply put, the map was cloned. One side was termed Felucca, and had the same rules that already existed.The other was called Trammel, and in Trammel, there simply wasn’t any ability to attack other players. It was a peaceful place.To this day, this is controversial. I wouldn’t have done it, personally, but there is no question that the userbase doubled once this went in.

Please, note where it is mentioned ".....but there is no question that the userbase doubled once this went in......"

So, like it or not, to my understanding, it is a FACT that the creation of Trammel helped Ultima Online to stay alive and thrive, because player killing was alienating players to play the game and, thus, severely endangering Ultima Online's ability to gather resources through subscriptions to pay for the necessary upkeep and enhancements.

Trammel was most likely, to my opinion, the very best thing to happen to Ultima Online and if it was not for it, UO would have ceased to exist long ago, since player killing drives more players away from playing the game, as it might attract players to the game....

Unfortunately, that I have seen, no Developer so far has been able to find really effective ways and mechanics to contain players' killing in ways other then having a facet like Trammel to exist...

Personally, I blame it to the fact that cheating, hacking and the use of Third Party programs in PvP was not aggressively countered from early on..... perhaps, had we seen effective ways to track down all cheating in UO and ban those accounts and those other account benefitting from the cheating accounts, PvP in UO could have been more tolerable and manageable....

Not getting rid for good of Ghost and Hidden EJs Cams is also something else which has highly controbuted, to my opinion, to keep Felucca facets and spaws oretty much void of players....

At least, that is how I see it.

Popps, we have seen that so many times, it's so factually incorrect it's really boring, please stop rolling it out all the time. There were so many other external factors at that exact point in time. UO was growing massively, just because of it's prior reputation, the fact Trammel came in at the same time, was coincidence. This is the problem with Theory-crafters like yourself, you were never there to see it, witness it, feel it, understand it.

What is really really obvious to everyone, is if you create Easymode and Hardmode, and give Easymode absolutely everything, the whole playerbase is going to go to Easymode - it had nothing to do with PvP! All PvPers are, are enhanced AI - that is the only way you need to see them, you can dehumanise them. Easymode is what ruined the game completely, and everyones failure to see this. It's very much like saying to a working age population - you can work for your money, or just be given it all via benefits - absolutely no penalty. 80% of people, would chose to receive the benefits and not work. But it would destroy the society in terms of progression, and mental attitude. They would be so weak minded. The comparison is so obvious, you lot astound me with your blindness and ignorance.

Now if they had separated Easymode, and Hardmode, this may have been ok, to be fair to them, they could not have envisioned this 20 years ago how this would go. But they maintained a link between the modes, and allowed everyone to farm the hell out of Easymode, and use it all to destroy the quality of Hardmode.

They needed to have the guts to stick with their original vision.

Cookie said:

TimSt said:

How about a compromise?  A few Trammel rule set shards where you can't transfer to or from. The Fel facet still has champ spawns that drop 120 scrolls but there is no PvP to worry about.

Personally I would jump to one of those shards immediately like I did when Trammel was created.

This used to be my idea, you will see many of my posts in the past trying to go for this - although I think you wrote this incorrectly? No PvP? The Felucca facet would have everything, PvM, PvP, Crafting, the entire gameplay, that's the point, complete balance and interlinking gameplay.

Everyone I know, is only going one place 🙂

You wouldn't even notice or miss the rest.

Name the 2 busiest shards? Name which 2 shards the pvpers are on... Oh, coincidence or not?

I wrote it correctly: No PvP in the entire shard.  Since I run away when ever any one tries to PvP me if I jump to a No PvP shard the PvPers would not miss me.

TimSt said:

Cookie said:

TimSt said:

How about a compromise?  A few Trammel rule set shards where you can't transfer to or from. The Fel facet still has champ spawns that drop 120 scrolls but there is no PvP to worry about.

Personally I would jump to one of those shards immediately like I did when Trammel was created.

This used to be my idea, you will see many of my posts in the past trying to go for this - although I think you wrote this incorrectly? No PvP? The Felucca facet would have everything, PvM, PvP, Crafting, the entire gameplay, that's the point, complete balance and interlinking gameplay.

Everyone I know, is only going one place 🙂

You wouldn't even notice or miss the rest.

Name the 2 busiest shards? Name which 2 shards the pvpers are on... Oh, coincidence or not?

I wrote it correctly: No PvP in the entire shard.  Since I run away when ever any one tries to PvP me if I jump to a No PvP shard the PvPers would not miss me.

I know what you meant Tim, but your sentence lead to the opposite interpretation.

"The Fel facet still has champ spawns that drop 120 scrolls but there is no PvP to worry about."

So for the record, yes, I would be ok with your intended concept. A complete Trammel facet or facets that cannot interact with Felucca, and complete Felucca facets with the entire gaming map, under the current gameplay rules.

Whats always funny about these conversations is, the tram side complains about the cheating and scripting in pvp and wants the stuff put in trammel for them.  Here's what happens once a static position for something is put in trammel,  its scripted non stop til it has no value.  Who does this scripting you'll ask, 99% of all trammel players in UO.  Trammel is the reason scripting and cheating in UO exists.   Now that you heard the real truth, go change your dirty diapers and farm your scrolls or gold.   *drops mic*

Cookie said:

TimSt said:

I wrote it correctly: No PvP in the entire shard.  Since I run away when ever any one tries to PvP me if I jump to a No PvP shard the PvPers would not miss me.

I know what you meant Tim, but your sentence lead to the opposite interpretation.

"The Fel facet still has champ spawns that drop 120 scrolls but there is no PvP to worry about."

So for the record, yes, I would be ok with your intended concept. A complete Trammel facet or facets that cannot interact with Felucca, and complete Felucca facets with the entire gaming map, under the current gameplay rules.

Just to be clear there would still be a Fel facet but it would not have PvP.  The Fel facet would still have 120 level scrolls.  You would not be able to transfer to or from the other production shards like Atlantic. Sort of like Siege but with no PvP.

Cookie said:

Popps, we have seen that so many times, it's so factually incorrect it's really boring, please stop rolling it out all the time. There were so many other external factors at that exact point in time. UO was growing massively, just because of it's prior reputation, the fact Trammel came in at the same time, was coincidence. This is the problem with Theory-crafters like yourself, you were never there to see it, witness it, feel it, understand it.

What is really really obvious to everyone, is if you create Easymode and Hardmode, and give Easymode absolutely everything, the whole playerbase is going to go to Easymode - it had nothing to do with PvP! All PvPers are, are enhanced AI - that is the only way you need to see them, you can dehumanise them. Easymode is what ruined the game completely, and everyones failure to see this. It's very much like saying to a working age population - you can work for your money, or just be given it all via benefits - absolutely no penalty. 80% of people, would chose to receive the benefits and not work. But it would destroy the society in terms of progression, and mental attitude. They would be so weak minded. The comparison is so obvious, you lot astound me with your blindness and ignorance.

Now if they had separated Easymode, and Hardmode, this may have been ok, to be fair to them, they could not have envisioned this 20 years ago how this would go. But they maintained a link between the modes, and allowed everyone to farm the hell out of Easymode, and use it all to destroy the quality of Hardmode.

They needed to have the guts to stick with their original vision.

Trammel a coincidence ?

LOL 

Trammel saved Ultima Online !!

PKilling was driving away from UO so many players that, had it not been for the creation of Trammel, UO would have been dead long ago....

And infact, Trammel, as it is pointed out in the Link I gave in the other Post, DOUBLED UO player's base which was plummetting because of Player Killing....

Check also out this other interview to Raph Koster at https://www.raphkoster.com/games/interviews-and-panels/live-forum-qa-with-raph-koster-1016/

Where he says many interesting things among which these passages caught my attention, particularly...

I do think a modern UO would not succeed with freeform PvP. It might well have PvP in it, but the whole gankfest thing is definitely a thing of the past. I never got to try the Outcasting concept that was proposed for SWG and never implemented, and would still love to see it tried (if you PK someone, they can report you to fellow players, along with a log of the event. If you are convicted, your right to PvP is permanently revoked). But even that, in these days of easy account creation on F2P games, maybe wouldn’t work. Bad guys would just make new accounts.

To me the essence of sandboxiness that was in UO and SWG is not about the PKing. It is about a simulated world, a functioning economy, a low power difference between high and low level players, and a system that doesn’t push you into combat as the only way to play the game (or even classes).

and

I do believe in a crime/punishment system. But everything we tried did fall prey to new accounts and killers who just didn’t care. If they have no emotional attachment to losing (e.g., don’t give a shit) then there isn’t any in-game punishment you can offer up. I don’t know if you were around for it, but I tried for a LONG time to get that balance right in SWG. Bounty systems became high score tables. Rewards were claimed by dummy accounts. Most everything we tried became a tool for the bad guys. And the good guys literally had no way to win, because the bad guys could just come back the next day, over and over, and just wear your spirit down.

Like it or not, player killing was killing Ultima Online losing many players having enough of it.... Trammel, was what saved Ultima Online and, infact, it is a FACT that as soon as Trammel was created Ultima Online's population doubled.....

That is no coincidence, as I understand it, had it not been for Trammel, players' numbers in Ultima Online would have been driven down by pkilling so much that it would have been shut down for good long ago, to my opinion.

If the users of this forum wish to turn this into a debate of the merits of Felucca vs Trammel, I will insist that the Terms of Service be adhered to strictly and all posts that are less that courteous or respectful will be removed.

TimSt said:

Just to be clear there would still be a Fel facet but it would not have PvP.  The Fel facet would still have 120 level scrolls.  You would not be able to transfer to or from the other production shards like Atlantic. Sort of like Siege but with no PvP.

Err Tim, you have completely lost me then, I really did not understand you.

This makes no sense on any level I'm sorry.

popps said:

Trammel a coincidence ?

LOL 

Trammel saved Ultima Online !!

PKilling was driving away from UO so many players that, had it not been for the creation of Trammel, UO would have been dead long ago....

And infact, Trammel, as it is pointed out in the Link I gave in the other Post, DOUBLED UO player's base which was plummetting because of Player Killing....

Check also out this other interview to Raph Koster at https://www.raphkoster.com/games/interviews-and-panels/live-forum-qa-with-raph-koster-1016/

Where he says many interesting things among which these passages caught my attention, particularly...

I do think a modern UO would not succeed with freeform PvP. It might well have PvP in it, but the whole gankfest thing is definitely a thing of the past. I never got to try the Outcasting concept that was proposed for SWG and never implemented, and would still love to see it tried (if you PK someone, they can report you to fellow players, along with a log of the event. If you are convicted, your right to PvP is permanently revoked). But even that, in these days of easy account creation on F2P games, maybe wouldn’t work. Bad guys would just make new accounts.

To me the essence of sandboxiness that was in UO and SWG is not about the PKing. It is about a simulated world, a functioning economy, a low power difference between high and low level players, and a system that doesn’t push you into combat as the only way to play the game (or even classes).

and

I do believe in a crime/punishment system. But everything we tried did fall prey to new accounts and killers who just didn’t care. If they have no emotional attachment to losing (e.g., don’t give a shit) then there isn’t any in-game punishment you can offer up. I don’t know if you were around for it, but I tried for a LONG time to get that balance right in SWG. Bounty systems became high score tables. Rewards were claimed by dummy accounts. Most everything we tried became a tool for the bad guys. And the good guys literally had no way to win, because the bad guys could just come back the next day, over and over, and just wear your spirit down.

Like it or not, player killing was killing Ultima Online losing many players having enough of it.... Trammel, was what saved Ultima Online and, infact, it is a FACT that as soon as Trammel was created Ultima Online's population doubled.....

That is no coincidence, as I understand it, had it not been for Trammel, players' numbers in Ultima Online would have been driven down by pkilling so much that it would have been shut down for good long ago, to my opinion.

This is a huge topic, and I won't be able to answer it fully, I have done it before, but it seems you didn't get it when I did. I'm not going to do it again, and explain all the external factors.

Trammel was a coincidence, Yes.

1. Throughout the world, most people were using 56k modems when UO came out, UO was technologically ahead of its time with the concept of an MMORPG, the systems could not cope, there was massive Lag everywhere, this is what was ruining the gaming experience for people, read any of the reviews at the time. You could not move, you crashed out all the time.

2. On a 56k modem, it was costing me £250 per month to play UO in the early days! I was playing it nonstop over a telephone line from a school IT room with 20 pc's that my father in law owned.

3. Only some countries, such as Sweden and Scandinavia had fibre or cable as standard in those days, and they were renowned as the best PvPers, because, it was all about connection in those days.

4. Then! Cable and Fibre were introduced on a more worldwide scale, people started getting them everywhere, this actually made UO playable, and the monthly connection charges went down to more reasonable prices - so UO became playable, AND cheap enough for the masses to play.

5. Trammel came out at the exact moment of this explosion of interest in UO.

6. Now the problem with Trammel was this - UO then forced all new players into Trammel, they did not have a choice where they started! It was Trammel, so a lot of new players by now, never even realised Felucca existed, they only got to see Easymode.

7. And from then on, Trammel got all the new players, AND got all of the Content. AND it was Easymode. This is still the case today - It's a miracle Felucca even exists. With this mix of factors, it is easy to see why Trammel became successful.

The game was so driven towards Trammel, there was no other choice. Players had to make a definitive choice to go to Felucca, and most had obviously got used to the EasyLife by then.

But what I can tell you, is the game was a far better concept in its original state, and this is the game players are nostalgic for, and remember fondly. Not the later Trammel version.

"I do believe in a crime/punishment system. But everything we tried did fall prey to new accounts and killers who just didn’t care. If they have no emotional attachment to losing (e.g., don’t give a shit) then there isn’t any in-game punishment you can offer up. I don’t know if you were around for it, but I tried for a LONG time to get that balance right in SWG. Bounty systems became high score tables. Rewards were claimed by dummy accounts. Most everything we tried became a tool for the bad guys. And the good guys literally had no way to win, because the bad guys could just come back the next day, over and over, and just wear your spirit down."

I'll take this quote, and disagree with the Developer. In the early days, they had the bounty system, which people remember well and was fun. They had the Stat and Skill-Loss system which worked. Even the Virtue, and Town Buff system could be used for these purposes, what the problem often was, was the systems had bugs that were able to be exploited making them redundant. I agree everything became a tool for the bad guys, but that is because the systems often had such simple flaws that could easily have been fixed, that put huge holes in them.

In the old days, player towns were created, these dealt with the problem, players could find their own solutions. Anti-PK's existed. I've been an anti-PK my entire gaming life, or a Factioner, and I'm still here having no problems. These scenarios, created situations where players had to team up and work together, and that really was the point. You could go lone-wolf for sure, but that was a much harder playstyle.

One problem often is regarding PvP and PvM is that the playstyles require different templates and gear. If you are doing a Champ spawn, you need to have PvM gear to be able to deal with the mobs, if you are PvPing, you are specifically designed to kill players and nothing else. There is also the element of surprise, the PvMers are working the spawn, and can be hit at any time, and 9 times out of 10, the element of surprise gets the PvMers if they are not well organised with defences the whole way through. PvMers can combat this, by again working in teams, and having PvPers specifically there to protect them - hence the Justice system, now abused by most PvMers as just a way to get more scrolls for themselves. The reason the Champ spawn guilds are so successful, is they are teaming and playing the game the way it was designed to be played. The reason the rest of you fail, is because you are not doing it properly.

I did always feel though, because the PvMers faced the tougher challenge - Being on weaker templates, in weaker gear, working the mobs and being hit by surprise - that they actually deserved bonuses that should help them defend themselves - this to me was always the flaw, the futility of most of the PvMers fight. Now the Virtues, and Town Buffs etc, should be used as a way to give bonuses, to help them fight back or survive better. The problem on the part of most PvMers however, is they just tried to go out and solo it all, this was never the intention, and most PvMers whine because they cannot solo everything.

To me, where the Developer gave up, he just needed to do better, make the systems tighter.

Rorschach said:

If the users of this forum wish to turn this into a debate of the merits of Felucca vs Trammel, I will insist that the Terms of Service be adhered to strictly and all posts that are less that courteous or respectful will be removed.

Hi Rorschach, Understood, I'm trying! Like someone above mentioned, it's like talking to a brick wall sometimes, and it gets so frustrating! You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink.

The problem with the Powerscrolls issue, is it is intrinsically linked to Felucca v Trammel. It is almost the ONLY unique thing Felucca has - I really hope you understand what we are trying to say in terms of just how much Trammel has, and just how much the Trammel system destroys entire UO gaming content by the fact is able to be farmed non-stop completely risk free.

If the Developers put Powerscrolls into Trammel, it's goodbye to the Powerscroll content system, in the same way Mastery Primers were wiped out in about 2 weeks by having them so freely available. Or gold which has become so inflated by non-stop scripting. Or Resources such as Imbuing reagents/Ingots/Wood have become so plentiful by non-stop safe scripting that gatherers have no role left in the game.

Not only are we debating for the Powerscroll content  system so it doesn't become erased and become nothing, we are debating for one of the only Unique points left in Felucca that has any challenge left in the game.

One last time. Pets do not need to be scrolled out to 120 to kill stuff. A pet scrolled to 110 or 115 kills stuff just fine! On the shards I play, 105 and 110 scrolls can be had for free just by asking nicely. Perhaps even 115s! If you do not want to go to Fel, then don't! Your game is not over!

Find some pet calculators, enter some numbers. Have fun and quit trying to change everything in game to fit just you!

https://www.uo-cah.com/pet-damage-calculator

Cookie said:

Rorschach said:

If the users of this forum wish to turn this into a debate of the merits of Felucca vs Trammel, I will insist that the Terms of Service be adhered to strictly and all posts that are less that courteous or respectful will be removed.

Hi Rorschach, Understood, I'm trying! Like someone above mentioned, it's like talking to a brick wall sometimes, and it gets so frustrating! You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink.

The problem with the Powerscrolls issue, is it is intrinsically linked to Felucca v Trammel. It is almost the ONLY unique thing Felucca has - I really hope you understand what we are trying to say in terms of just how much Trammel has, and just how much the Trammel system destroys entire UO gaming content by the fact is able to be farmed non-stop completely risk free.

If the Developers put Powerscrolls into Trammel, it's goodbye to the Powerscroll content system, in the same way Mastery Primers were wiped out in about 2 weeks by having them so freely available. Or gold which has become so inflated by non-stop scripting. Or Resources such as Imbuing reagents/Ingots/Wood have become so plentiful by non-stop safe scripting that gatherers have no role left in the game.

Not only are we debating for the Powerscroll content  system so it doesn't become erased and become nothing, we are debating for one of the only Unique points left in Felucca that has any challenge left in the game.

The problem with the Powerscrolls issue, is it is intrinsically linked to Felucca v Trammel. It is almost the ONLY unique thing Felucca has - I really hope you understand what we are trying to say in terms of just how much Trammel has, and just how much the Trammel system destroys entire UO gaming content by the fact is able to be farmed non-stop completely risk free.

I do not think that is a problem for any red out there is it ?

Don't they all have their Blues who can go to Trammel no problem and do their hunts in Trammel just as well they do their in Felucca ?

So, I would say, it is the PvMers who here have the short end of the stick, not the PvPers who can easily do both, Felucca AND Trammel...

popps said:

Don't they all have their Blues who can go to Trammel no problem and do their hunts in Trammel just as well they do their in Felucca ?

So, I would say, it is the PvMers who here have the short end of the stick, not the PvPers who can easily do both, Felucca AND Trammel...

Popps, your logic is so broken...

ALL content is equally available to ALL players.  A player who makes a red character is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  A player who chooses not to go to Fel is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  You have just as much of an option to create a PvP template as PvPer's have to create PvM templates.  Your beef seems to be that PvPers are willing to do both to attain the rewards they are after, whereas you are unwilling to.  You want all the reward for the PvM templates.  

One of the most successful elements of a sandbox mmo is that it provides content for a multitude of play styles.  Miners and Fisherman can play UO and have fun.  Crafters can play UO and have fun.  Warriors and Mages can play UO and have fun.  Treasure hunters can play UO and have fun.  PvPers can play UO and have fun.  Each of those playstyles have, to some degree, unique rewards (though not every reward carries the same economic value as determined by the players willingness to purchase).  Many players in UO, like myself, participate in most of the content that is available through various character templates.  I have crafters.  I have fisherman.  I have tamers.  I have treasure hunters. I have mages.  I have warriors.  I have PvPers (sort of).  Even then there is some elements of those characters I do not do (BoDs for example).  When I want a reward I choose whether to get it myself or buy it based on what I am willing to do and what I enjoy doing.  Arguing for the removal of a reward for a certain playstyle because you, or even a majority of players, think the content to acquire the reward is difficult or requires a playstyle you don't enjoy is a bit absurd.  As has been stated multiple times in this thread, if you chose not to go to Fel, that is fine... its your choice.  There is more than ample content in UO that can be done in the Tram ruleset that can be bought and sold to purchase or trade for powerscrolls.

Merus said:

popps said:

Don't they all have their Blues who can go to Trammel no problem and do their hunts in Trammel just as well they do their in Felucca ?

So, I would say, it is the PvMers who here have the short end of the stick, not the PvPers who can easily do both, Felucca AND Trammel...

Popps, your logic is so broken...

ALL content is equally available to ALL players.  A player who makes a red character is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  A player who chooses not to go to Fel is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  You have just as much of an option to create a PvP template as PvPer's have to create PvM templates.  Your beef seems to be that PvPers are willing to do both to attain the rewards they are after, whereas you are unwilling to.  You want all the reward for the PvM templates.  

One of the most successful elements of a sandbox mmo is that it provides content for a multitude of play styles.  Miners and Fisherman can play UO and have fun.  Crafters can play UO and have fun.  Warriors and Mages can play UO and have fun.  Treasure hunters can play UO and have fun.  PvPers can play UO and have fun.  Each of those playstyles have, to some degree, unique rewards (though not every reward carries the same economic value as determined by the players willingness to purchase).  Many players in UO, like myself, participate in most of the content that is available through various character templates.  I have crafters.  I have fisherman.  I have tamers.  I have treasure hunters. I have mages.  I have warriors.  I have PvPers (sort of).  Even then there is some elements of those characters I do not do (BoDs for example).  When I want a reward I choose whether to get it myself or buy it based on what I am willing to do and what I enjoy doing.  Arguing for the removal of a reward for a certain playstyle because you, or even a majority of players, think the content to acquire the reward is difficult or requires a playstyle you don't enjoy is a bit absurd.  As has been stated multiple times in this thread, if you chose not to go to Fel, that is fine... its your choice.  There is more than ample content in UO that can be done in the Tram ruleset that can be bought and sold to purchase or trade for powerscrolls.

Popps, your logic is so broken...

ALL content is equally available to ALL players.  A player who makes a red character is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  A player who chooses not to go to Fel is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  You have just as much of an option to create a PvP template as PvPer's have to create PvM templates.  Your beef seems to be that PvPers are willing to do both to attain the rewards they are after, whereas you are unwilling to.  You want all the reward for the PvM templates.  

I am afraid it is not broken when, guess what, it is in PvP, not all, mind you, but some yes, that players tend to use hacks, cheats and Third Party progs to gain an unfair edge...

There is players who do not want to deal with those cheats, hacks and whatnot and, so, since it "happens" that they are more often used in PvP as what they may be in PvM, quite a good number of player just decide to stay out of PvP not to have to deal with those hacks, cheats and whatnot hich they do not want to use.

All these players, to my opinion, should not be penalized with content which they then cannot access because the game they are playing happens to not have succeeded in getting rid of cheats, hacks and what not.

For many it is not a choice not to deal with Felucca and PvP, it is just that they do not want to have anything to do with cheats, hacks and whatnot which, unfortunately, "sometimes" are used in PvP to gain an edge because, that's unfortunate, that game was not succesfull in stopping their use.

What is the point of engaging in PvP for someone who does not want to use cheats, hacks and whatnot, no matter what, when there is chances that the opponent would be using them instead ?

Better not have anything to do with it, entirely, methinks.

At least, that is the way I see it.

popps said:

Merus said:

popps said:

Don't they all have their Blues who can go to Trammel no problem and do their hunts in Trammel just as well they do their in Felucca ?

So, I would say, it is the PvMers who here have the short end of the stick, not the PvPers who can easily do both, Felucca AND Trammel...

Popps, your logic is so broken...

ALL content is equally available to ALL players.  A player who makes a red character is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  A player who chooses not to go to Fel is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  You have just as much of an option to create a PvP template as PvPer's have to create PvM templates.  Your beef seems to be that PvPers are willing to do both to attain the rewards they are after, whereas you are unwilling to.  You want all the reward for the PvM templates.  

One of the most successful elements of a sandbox mmo is that it provides content for a multitude of play styles.  Miners and Fisherman can play UO and have fun.  Crafters can play UO and have fun.  Warriors and Mages can play UO and have fun.  Treasure hunters can play UO and have fun.  PvPers can play UO and have fun.  Each of those playstyles have, to some degree, unique rewards (though not every reward carries the same economic value as determined by the players willingness to purchase).  Many players in UO, like myself, participate in most of the content that is available through various character templates.  I have crafters.  I have fisherman.  I have tamers.  I have treasure hunters. I have mages.  I have warriors.  I have PvPers (sort of).  Even then there is some elements of those characters I do not do (BoDs for example).  When I want a reward I choose whether to get it myself or buy it based on what I am willing to do and what I enjoy doing.  Arguing for the removal of a reward for a certain playstyle because you, or even a majority of players, think the content to acquire the reward is difficult or requires a playstyle you don't enjoy is a bit absurd.  As has been stated multiple times in this thread, if you chose not to go to Fel, that is fine... its your choice.  There is more than ample content in UO that can be done in the Tram ruleset that can be bought and sold to purchase or trade for powerscrolls.

Popps, your logic is so broken...

ALL content is equally available to ALL players.  A player who makes a red character is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  A player who chooses not to go to Fel is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  You have just as much of an option to create a PvP template as PvPer's have to create PvM templates.  Your beef seems to be that PvPers are willing to do both to attain the rewards they are after, whereas you are unwilling to.  You want all the reward for the PvM templates.  

I am afraid it is not broken when, guess what, it is in PvP, not all, mind you, but some yes, that players tend to use hacks, cheats and Third Party progs to gain an unfair edge...

There is players who do not want to deal with those cheats, hacks and whatnot and, so, since it "happens" that they are more often used in PvP as what they may be in PvM, quite a good number of player just decide to stay out of PvP not to have to deal with those hacks, cheats and whatnot hich they do not want to use.

All these players, to my opinion, should not be penalized with content which they then cannot access because the game they are playing happens to not have succeeded in getting rid of cheats, hacks and what not.

For many it is not a choice not to deal with Felucca and PvP, it is just that they do not want to have anything to do with cheats, hacks and whatnot which, unfortunately, "sometimes" are used in PvP to gain an edge because, that's unfortunate, that game was not succesfull in stopping their use.

What is the point of engaging in PvP for someone who does not want to use cheats, hacks and whatnot, no matter what, when there is chances that the opponent would be using them instead ?

Better not have anything to do with it, entirely, methinks.

At least, that is the way I see it.

Cheats are far more prevalent in Tram content that Fel content, so your logic still fails.  Furthermore, there is plenty of opportunity to do Fel content without interacting with other players if you are smart about it... but there is always the risk of it happening.

Merus said:

popps said:

Merus said:

popps said:

Don't they all have their Blues who can go to Trammel no problem and do their hunts in Trammel just as well they do their in Felucca ?

So, I would say, it is the PvMers who here have the short end of the stick, not the PvPers who can easily do both, Felucca AND Trammel...

Popps, your logic is so broken...

ALL content is equally available to ALL players.  A player who makes a red character is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  A player who chooses not to go to Fel is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  You have just as much of an option to create a PvP template as PvPer's have to create PvM templates.  Your beef seems to be that PvPers are willing to do both to attain the rewards they are after, whereas you are unwilling to.  You want all the reward for the PvM templates.  

One of the most successful elements of a sandbox mmo is that it provides content for a multitude of play styles.  Miners and Fisherman can play UO and have fun.  Crafters can play UO and have fun.  Warriors and Mages can play UO and have fun.  Treasure hunters can play UO and have fun.  PvPers can play UO and have fun.  Each of those playstyles have, to some degree, unique rewards (though not every reward carries the same economic value as determined by the players willingness to purchase).  Many players in UO, like myself, participate in most of the content that is available through various character templates.  I have crafters.  I have fisherman.  I have tamers.  I have treasure hunters. I have mages.  I have warriors.  I have PvPers (sort of).  Even then there is some elements of those characters I do not do (BoDs for example).  When I want a reward I choose whether to get it myself or buy it based on what I am willing to do and what I enjoy doing.  Arguing for the removal of a reward for a certain playstyle because you, or even a majority of players, think the content to acquire the reward is difficult or requires a playstyle you don't enjoy is a bit absurd.  As has been stated multiple times in this thread, if you chose not to go to Fel, that is fine... its your choice.  There is more than ample content in UO that can be done in the Tram ruleset that can be bought and sold to purchase or trade for powerscrolls.

Popps, your logic is so broken...

ALL content is equally available to ALL players.  A player who makes a red character is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  A player who chooses not to go to Fel is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  You have just as much of an option to create a PvP template as PvPer's have to create PvM templates.  Your beef seems to be that PvPers are willing to do both to attain the rewards they are after, whereas you are unwilling to.  You want all the reward for the PvM templates.  

I am afraid it is not broken when, guess what, it is in PvP, not all, mind you, but some yes, that players tend to use hacks, cheats and Third Party progs to gain an unfair edge...

There is players who do not want to deal with those cheats, hacks and whatnot and, so, since it "happens" that they are more often used in PvP as what they may be in PvM, quite a good number of player just decide to stay out of PvP not to have to deal with those hacks, cheats and whatnot hich they do not want to use.

All these players, to my opinion, should not be penalized with content which they then cannot access because the game they are playing happens to not have succeeded in getting rid of cheats, hacks and what not.

For many it is not a choice not to deal with Felucca and PvP, it is just that they do not want to have anything to do with cheats, hacks and whatnot which, unfortunately, "sometimes" are used in PvP to gain an edge because, that's unfortunate, that game was not succesfull in stopping their use.

What is the point of engaging in PvP for someone who does not want to use cheats, hacks and whatnot, no matter what, when there is chances that the opponent would be using them instead ?

Better not have anything to do with it, entirely, methinks.

At least, that is the way I see it.

Cheats are far more prevalent in Tram content that Fel content, so your logic still fails.  Furthermore, there is plenty of opportunity to do Fel content without interacting with other players if you are smart about it... but there is always the risk of it happening.

Yeah right, with Ghost Cams or Hidden EJ Cams perhaps even used AFK and scripted....

Sure....

And while cheats used in PvM may only affect the player using them, those used in PvP affect, and pretty significantly (they can cost the loss of the fight....), the counterpart of that fight which, it goes without saying, in PvP is a another fellow player....

There is a HUGE difference there, to my viewing.....

popps said:

Merus said:

popps said:

Merus said:

popps said:

Don't they all have their Blues who can go to Trammel no problem and do their hunts in Trammel just as well they do their in Felucca ?

So, I would say, it is the PvMers who here have the short end of the stick, not the PvPers who can easily do both, Felucca AND Trammel...

Popps, your logic is so broken...

ALL content is equally available to ALL players.  A player who makes a red character is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  A player who chooses not to go to Fel is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  You have just as much of an option to create a PvP template as PvPer's have to create PvM templates.  Your beef seems to be that PvPers are willing to do both to attain the rewards they are after, whereas you are unwilling to.  You want all the reward for the PvM templates.  

One of the most successful elements of a sandbox mmo is that it provides content for a multitude of play styles.  Miners and Fisherman can play UO and have fun.  Crafters can play UO and have fun.  Warriors and Mages can play UO and have fun.  Treasure hunters can play UO and have fun.  PvPers can play UO and have fun.  Each of those playstyles have, to some degree, unique rewards (though not every reward carries the same economic value as determined by the players willingness to purchase).  Many players in UO, like myself, participate in most of the content that is available through various character templates.  I have crafters.  I have fisherman.  I have tamers.  I have treasure hunters. I have mages.  I have warriors.  I have PvPers (sort of).  Even then there is some elements of those characters I do not do (BoDs for example).  When I want a reward I choose whether to get it myself or buy it based on what I am willing to do and what I enjoy doing.  Arguing for the removal of a reward for a certain playstyle because you, or even a majority of players, think the content to acquire the reward is difficult or requires a playstyle you don't enjoy is a bit absurd.  As has been stated multiple times in this thread, if you chose not to go to Fel, that is fine... its your choice.  There is more than ample content in UO that can be done in the Tram ruleset that can be bought and sold to purchase or trade for powerscrolls.

Popps, your logic is so broken...

ALL content is equally available to ALL players.  A player who makes a red character is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  A player who chooses not to go to Fel is making a choice to limit some of the content available to them.  You have just as much of an option to create a PvP template as PvPer's have to create PvM templates.  Your beef seems to be that PvPers are willing to do both to attain the rewards they are after, whereas you are unwilling to.  You want all the reward for the PvM templates.  

I am afraid it is not broken when, guess what, it is in PvP, not all, mind you, but some yes, that players tend to use hacks, cheats and Third Party progs to gain an unfair edge...

There is players who do not want to deal with those cheats, hacks and whatnot and, so, since it "happens" that they are more often used in PvP as what they may be in PvM, quite a good number of player just decide to stay out of PvP not to have to deal with those hacks, cheats and whatnot hich they do not want to use.

All these players, to my opinion, should not be penalized with content which they then cannot access because the game they are playing happens to not have succeeded in getting rid of cheats, hacks and what not.

For many it is not a choice not to deal with Felucca and PvP, it is just that they do not want to have anything to do with cheats, hacks and whatnot which, unfortunately, "sometimes" are used in PvP to gain an edge because, that's unfortunate, that game was not succesfull in stopping their use.

What is the point of engaging in PvP for someone who does not want to use cheats, hacks and whatnot, no matter what, when there is chances that the opponent would be using them instead ?

Better not have anything to do with it, entirely, methinks.

At least, that is the way I see it.

Cheats are far more prevalent in Tram content that Fel content, so your logic still fails.  Furthermore, there is plenty of opportunity to do Fel content without interacting with other players if you are smart about it... but there is always the risk of it happening.

Yeah right, with Ghost Cams or Hidden EJ Cams perhaps even used AFK and scripted....

Sure....

And while cheats used in PvM may only affect the player using them, those used in PvP affect, and pretty significantly (they can cost the loss of the fight....), the counterpart of that fight which, it goes without saying, in PvP is a another fellow player....

There is a HUGE difference there, to my viewing.....

Again with broken logic... AFK or script farmed resources, gold and drops affect far, FAR more players through their economic impact than someone who uses a pvp cheat program to win a fight.

popps said:

Yeah right, with Ghost Cams or Hidden EJ Cams perhaps even used AFK and scripted....

Sure....

And while cheats used in PvM may only affect the player using them, those used in PvP affect, and pretty significantly (they can cost the loss of the fight....), the counterpart of that fight which, it goes without saying, in PvP is a another fellow player....

There is a HUGE difference there, to my viewing.....

No, you are missing the point completely here Popps.

The cheats used in Trammel, in PvM, are the ones completely destroying the game, and ironically creating the scenario you are actually complaining about. Ridiculous prices due to rampant Gold Inflation - this isn't coming from Felucca as I explained right at the start of my posts, and you are still unable to see it yet. This is coming from free, no risk, 100% safe, completely unactionable 24/7 scripting in Trammel. In Felucca, when we see this, we just kill them, and stop the game becoming unbalanced for absolutely everyone. I don't think you appreciate how much Feluccan's care about the balance of the whole game for everyone, as we realise how it should be played, and how everything should be interlinked and balanced.

The cheats used in PvP, allow 1 player or team to beat another player or team, they are annoying as hell, trust me I know, I'm the guy fighting them, not you, you wouldn't stand a chance due to lack of skill, preparation, experience and the fact you are all just theory-craft, and you don't have a calm enough mindset for it. You would not be able to beat them, with or without cheats. What you could do however, is join a team, and specialise in your role, to help the team succeed, that is the proactive thing you could do to make all your dreams come true, so you don't have to keep trying to change the entire game on the forums for everyone else.

Honestly, if I thought you had any sort of point, or logic here, I would be backing you up, but I'm not. I have backed you up quite a few times when everyone else is losing it due to your complete inability to comprehend or empathise with anything outside of your own box.

LMMFAO
The only reason Fel exists is because of Power Scrolls and the only reason PvP still exists is because of Power Scrolls.  PvP is just the greatest thing in UO is all bullcrap and you know it.  Without the LURES PvP would have died.
1997 UO was born Fel only

2000 Tram was born because subs were falling because of the rampant lawlessness.  UO had very little time left because everybody was quitting or had removed there CC data so EA made UO do a quick fix and Tram was the fastest way.  Subs returned and the population grew.

2002 Power Scrolls and Stat Scrolls  were introduced to Fel because Fel was a ghost town and the PvPers/PKers needed a way to LURE sheep to fel.  Spawns were controlled by Zerg Guilds.

2003 UO was at its peak with an estimated 350K accounts and Age of Shit was born and UO has been in a downward spiral ever since.

The only reason people even go to Fel is because of Power Scrolls and double resources not because of PvP.  PKers kill PvMers doing the spawn to steal the power scrolls and call that PvP, LMAO what a load of crap.  If PvP was so great then SP would be the #1 shard in UO.

There may be some PvMers out there running LOOT programs but why when the EC can do it for you from what I understand but it is almost guaranteed that every PvPer is running illegal programs because that is the only way they can win.

A person set up to kill another player that is set up to kill a boss is far from PvP but you keep telling people that this is real PvP.  Putting on GM made gear and fight someone with GM made gear was real PvP and what do we have now Gear and programs set up to kill PvMers clearing a spawn now that was so OMG hard to kill that player and really got my heart pumping, LOL.

Make all of UO consensual PvP and watch all the PvP die because the only way PvP exists is with LURES  Player V Player is a bullcrap term, it does not exist.

Bilbo said:

LMMFAO
The only reason Fel exists is because of Power Scrolls and the only reason PvP still exists is because of Power Scrolls.  PvP is just the greatest thing in UO is all bullcrap and you know it.  Without the LURES PvP would have died.
1997 UO was born Fel only

2000 Tram was born because subs were falling because of the rampant lawlessness.  UO had very little time left because everybody was quitting or had removed there CC data so EA made UO do a quick fix and Tram was the fastest way.  Subs returned and the population grew.

2002 Power Scrolls and Stat Scrolls  were introduced to Fel because Fel was a ghost town and the PvPers/PKers needed a way to LURE sheep to fel.  Spawns were controlled by Zerg Guilds.

2003 UO was at its peak with an estimated 350K accounts and Age of Shit was born and UO has been in a downward spiral ever since.

The only reason people even go to Fel is because of Power Scrolls and double resources not because of PvP.  PKers kill PvMers doing the spawn to steal the power scrolls and call that PvP, LMAO what a load of crap.  If PvP was so great then SP would be the #1 shard in UO.

There may be some PvMers out there running LOOT programs but why when the EC can do it for you from what I understand but it is almost guaranteed that every PvPer is running illegal programs because that is the only way they can win.

A person set up to kill another player that is set up to kill a boss is far from PvP but you keep telling people that this is real PvP.  Putting on GM made gear and fight someone with GM made gear was real PvP and what do we have now Gear and programs set up to kill PvMers clearing a spawn now that was so OMG hard to kill that player and really got my heart pumping, LOL.

Make all of UO consensual PvP and watch all the PvP die because the only way PvP exists is with LURES  Player V Player is a bullcrap term, it does not exist.

No one plays siege because this is an item based pvp game and siege has no insurance... if your player abilities werent impacted by items any longer siege would be the most active shard.

Maybe if pvp got some updates more then once every 20 years it would retain its players but nothing has been added to fight for since champion spawns which is real sad when so much more could be done that would breathe life back into pvp

Townie said:

No one plays siege because this is an item based pvp game and siege has no insurance... if your player abilities werent impacted by items any longer siege would be the most active shard.

Maybe if pvp got some updates more then once every 20 years it would retain its players but nothing has been added to fight for since champion spawns which is real sad when so much more could be done that would breathe life back into pvp

This is true.

I'd really love it if they could realise the full potential of Siege.

And rescue us off these production shards lol.

It would have to be updated to current rules maybe. Don't know how Siege players would feel about that?

Then a 1 way transfer maybe for players wanting to go there? To get fully fledged characters over there? Would you be allowed to take a certain amount of stuff, to get you set up?

Then after that, they could delete Felucca, and give champion spawns to Trammel.

Townie said:

Bilbo said:

LMMFAO
The only reason Fel exists is because of Power Scrolls and the only reason PvP still exists is because of Power Scrolls.  PvP is just the greatest thing in UO is all bullcrap and you know it.  Without the LURES PvP would have died.
1997 UO was born Fel only

2000 Tram was born because subs were falling because of the rampant lawlessness.  UO had very little time left because everybody was quitting or had removed there CC data so EA made UO do a quick fix and Tram was the fastest way.  Subs returned and the population grew.

2002 Power Scrolls and Stat Scrolls  were introduced to Fel because Fel was a ghost town and the PvPers/PKers needed a way to LURE sheep to fel.  Spawns were controlled by Zerg Guilds.

2003 UO was at its peak with an estimated 350K accounts and Age of Shit was born and UO has been in a downward spiral ever since.

The only reason people even go to Fel is because of Power Scrolls and double resources not because of PvP.  PKers kill PvMers doing the spawn to steal the power scrolls and call that PvP, LMAO what a load of crap.  If PvP was so great then SP would be the #1 shard in UO.

There may be some PvMers out there running LOOT programs but why when the EC can do it for you from what I understand but it is almost guaranteed that every PvPer is running illegal programs because that is the only way they can win.

A person set up to kill another player that is set up to kill a boss is far from PvP but you keep telling people that this is real PvP.  Putting on GM made gear and fight someone with GM made gear was real PvP and what do we have now Gear and programs set up to kill PvMers clearing a spawn now that was so OMG hard to kill that player and really got my heart pumping, LOL.

Make all of UO consensual PvP and watch all the PvP die because the only way PvP exists is with LURES  Player V Player is a bullcrap term, it does not exist.

No one plays siege because this is an item based pvp game and siege has no insurance... if your player abilities werent impacted by items any longer siege would be the most active shard.

Maybe if pvp got some updates more then once every 20 years it would retain its players but nothing has been added to fight for since champion spawns which is real sad when so much more could be done that would breathe life back into pvp

Another BS excuses to not do real PvP when real PvP is Player v Player.  Glad you can admit that your real skill at PvP is so far down the scale that you require Gear in order to compete, what a joke.  SP is REAL PvP not this watered down bullcrap.  UO needs to rename PvP to EquipmentPrograms V EquipmentPrograms (EPvEP) and refer to it as game for the skill-less.

Also TY for admitting that without LURES PvP would be dead.  LMAO  Pre AoS and Scrolls we didn't need a reason to PvP we did it to prove who the better player was, we pitted our skills against another players skills and helped each other to become better players not the bullcrap you call PvP now.

Funny how all the PvPers now give all the excuses as to how they can't handle real PvP, gotta have those lures/gear/insurance/programs to play a game.

Townie said:

Maybe if pvp got some updates more then once every 20 years it would retain its players but nothing has been added to fight for since champion spawns which is real sad when so much more could be done that would breathe life back into pvp

only really commented cus i love ur name bro. ill bet not many people on these forums even knows what a townie is or why without first scouring the interwebs for answers.

debating with people who are so one sided is absolutly worthless. they cant see past their wierd pacifistic vision of uo where nobody fights anybody and they all sit in luna bank singing cumbaya while taking turns doing champ spawns.

some day these people will realize that this game needs both pvp and pve to thrive. mabey it will be when EA finally decideds uo doesnt make it enough money and it shitcans it.  its already F2P  and you know what they say about f2p mmos. f2p is the first step to cancellation or death on console. 

Bilbo said:

Another BS excuses to not do real PvP when real PvP is Player v Player.  Glad you can admit that your real skill at PvP is so far down the scale that you require Gear in order to compete, what a joke.  SP is REAL PvP not this watered down bullcrap.  UO needs to rename PvP to EquipmentPrograms V EquipmentPrograms (EPvEP) and refer to it as game for the skill-less.

Also TY for admitting that without LURES PvP would be dead.  LMAO  Pre AoS and Scrolls we didn't need a reason to PvP we did it to prove who the better player was, we pitted our skills against another players skills and helped each other to become better players not the bullcrap you call PvP now.

Funny how all the PvPers now give all the excuses as to how they can't handle real PvP, gotta have those lures/gear/insurance/programs to play a game.

And your pvper on Siege is?

MissE said:

I do find it funny all these people saying do tmaps for these scrolls.  I ONLY do fel tmaps, and only for that reason, however, other than miasma's chance of dropping a fel hoard map, the others are like damn hens teeth to amass. I am not talking about 1-2  a week, when I do tmaps I wanna do 10-20 or more at a time.  There is zero source for those kinda numbers since they destroyed tmapping.   Other maps are not really even worth doing these days.  Trying to find a source for a regular supply of fel maps is next to impossible so getting 2-3 scrolls 105/110 out of one map if means you need to complete HUNDREDS until you get enough 105's to bind up to a 110 then more hundreds to get from 110 to 115 and probably 500 or more to get that 120.  

As I said I ONLY do fel tmaps and have farmed and farmed all manor of creatures trying to build up a supply of them and that is impossible.   I even went so far to placing a building in fel to dump down a couple of skull rugs but they tend to drop 80% stash and supply maps with only the odd cache and you need cache and above to get any scrolls. So then you dig up the lower level crap maps on the hope that they will spawn a higher level in them of which 95% of the time they don't.

So yeah not a great solution unless anyone can tell me where I can spend a short amount of time farming cache or higher maps.  By the time you spend 2-3 hours farming trash mobs for 1 or 2 maps when you need HUNDREDS for it to be effective then come tell me again how this is a solution for pet scrolls when most of us want scrolls for 20 + pets.

Hi MissE,

I do get your problem, I only do Felucca Tmaps myself, and I have farmed everything to get them. Whilst they do seem to drop, the drop rates are insanely low. For example, I do Balrons at the bottom of Hyloth, nothing drops for days, then my friend gets one in 45 minutes... I do Blood Ellie’s in Wind, I’m sure I’ve had one there before, but again unbelievably low drop rate, I cant make it happen often.

Ultimately, I do Miasma, and I get 1 chest drop every 60k gold say, which is say 20-30 minutes, so let’s say 3 an hour. Then the Felucca map drop is a 1 out of 6 facet drop chance, but in reality it is 1 in 10 drop chance, so you get one on average every 2 hours, or worse. I actually enjoy farming Miasma just because, and I do build up huge quantities, and often never get round to doing the maps myself, so give away say 50 at a time. But I’m one of the few who can say they do this, or enjoy it, I just like relaxed farming. Again in my opinion, because of hyper gold inflation etc. No one is interested in basic gathering anymore, there is no perceived value in it, they would all rather the 250m cameo hit. I burn all the rest of the maps for cleanup points 🙂

So yes, I do get the problem. I do wish they could find a way to boost normal dungeon gathering, spread the rewards out there.

Get a Triton ....nuff said.

Garth_Grey said:

Get a Triton ....nuff said.

Well, with a Triton one can save the powerscrolls for Resist and Wrestling but, depending on the build, other Powerscrolls could still be needed....

Furthermore, there is no pet that can do it all so, just like a Dexer needs to have several Weapons, and a Mageseveral spellbooks depending on the Hunt, so a Tamer needs several, different pets, depending on the Hunt....

So, Powerscrolls are much in need for Tamers, me thinks....

Cookie said:

MissE said:

I do find it funny all these people saying do tmaps for these scrolls.  I ONLY do fel tmaps, and only for that reason, however, other than miasma's chance of dropping a fel hoard map, the others are like damn hens teeth to amass. I am not talking about 1-2  a week, when I do tmaps I wanna do 10-20 or more at a time.  There is zero source for those kinda numbers since they destroyed tmapping.   Other maps are not really even worth doing these days.  Trying to find a source for a regular supply of fel maps is next to impossible so getting 2-3 scrolls 105/110 out of one map if means you need to complete HUNDREDS until you get enough 105's to bind up to a 110 then more hundreds to get from 110 to 115 and probably 500 or more to get that 120.  

As I said I ONLY do fel tmaps and have farmed and farmed all manor of creatures trying to build up a supply of them and that is impossible.   I even went so far to placing a building in fel to dump down a couple of skull rugs but they tend to drop 80% stash and supply maps with only the odd cache and you need cache and above to get any scrolls. So then you dig up the lower level crap maps on the hope that they will spawn a higher level in them of which 95% of the time they don't.

So yeah not a great solution unless anyone can tell me where I can spend a short amount of time farming cache or higher maps.  By the time you spend 2-3 hours farming trash mobs for 1 or 2 maps when you need HUNDREDS for it to be effective then come tell me again how this is a solution for pet scrolls when most of us want scrolls for 20 + pets.

Hi MissE,

I do get your problem, I only do Felucca Tmaps myself, and I have farmed everything to get them. Whilst they do seem to drop, the drop rates are insanely low. For example, I do Balrons at the bottom of Hyloth, nothing drops for days, then my friend gets one in 45 minutes... I do Blood Ellie’s in Wind, I’m sure I’ve had one there before, but again unbelievably low drop rate, I cant make it happen often.

Ultimately, I do Miasma, and I get 1 chest drop every 60k gold say, which is say 20-30 minutes, so let’s say 3 an hour. Then the Felucca map drop is a 1 out of 6 facet drop chance, but in reality it is 1 in 10 drop chance, so you get one on average every 2 hours, or worse. I actually enjoy farming Miasma just because, and I do build up huge quantities, and often never get round to doing the maps myself, so give away say 50 at a time. But I’m one of the few who can say they do this, or enjoy it, I just like relaxed farming. Again in my opinion, because of hyper gold inflation etc. No one is interested in basic gathering anymore, there is no perceived value in it, they would all rather the 250m cameo hit. I burn all the rest of the maps for cleanup points 🙂

So yes, I do get the problem. I do wish they could find a way to boost normal dungeon gathering, spread the rewards out there.

I believe every facet deserves a place or two which are similar to the dark guardian room.

tamers were never suppose to be easy or cheap to make.
because of the ease of use, i believe having to dump gold into them is a good thing. 

drindeth said:

tamers were never suppose to be easy or cheap to make.
because of the ease of use, i believe having to dump gold into them is a good thing. 

Uhu ?

"Dump" gold into pets ?

Really ?

With what many 120s needed by pets cost, a fully scrolled Pet can easily cost hundreds of millions of gold points....

Multiply that for several pets and we are talking of platinums spent in a Tamer's stable....

Maybe others might think it is normal and acceptable, I happen to think it is not.

When the cost of scrolling a pet gets "that" high because Powerscrolls are held hostage by a handfull of player because of whatever the mechanics to get them are that cause a Monopoly for them, not to mention having multiple pets in a Tamer's stables, it can become a game stopper for a Tamer player which is just not right, to my opinion. 

Popps, to my opinion, a tamer is not for you.

MissE said:

I do find it funny all these people saying do tmaps for these scrolls.  I ONLY do fel tmaps, and only for that reason, however, other than miasma's chance of dropping a fel hoard map, the others are like damn hens teeth to amass. I am not talking about 1-2  a week, when I do tmaps I wanna do 10-20 or more at a time.  There is zero source for those kinda numbers since they destroyed tmapping.   Other maps are not really even worth doing these days.  Trying to find a source for a regular supply of fel maps is next to impossible so getting 2-3 scrolls 105/110 out of one map if means you need to complete HUNDREDS until you get enough 105's to bind up to a 110 then more hundreds to get from 110 to 115 and probably 500 or more to get that 120.  

As I said I ONLY do fel tmaps and have farmed and farmed all manor of creatures trying to build up a supply of them and that is impossible.   I even went so far to placing a building in fel to dump down a couple of skull rugs but they tend to drop 80% stash and supply maps with only the odd cache and you need cache and above to get any scrolls. So then you dig up the lower level crap maps on the hope that they will spawn a higher level in them of which 95% of the time they don't.

So yeah not a great solution unless anyone can tell me where I can spend a short amount of time farming cache or higher maps.  By the time you spend 2-3 hours farming trash mobs for 1 or 2 maps when you need HUNDREDS for it to be effective then come tell me again how this is a solution for pet scrolls when most of us want scrolls for 20 + pets.

If you don't mind starting with stash maps and progressing to higher level maps you can farm tmaps using the treasure quest from the town cryer. When I was farming them I was getting 23 stash maps a week and progressing through the various levels.

popps said:

drindeth said:

tamers were never suppose to be easy or cheap to make.
because of the ease of use, i believe having to dump gold into them is a good thing. 

Uhu ?

"Dump" gold into pets ?

Really ?

With what many 120s needed by pets cost, a fully scrolled Pet can easily cost hundreds of millions of gold points....

Multiply that for several pets and we are talking of platinums spent in a Tamer's stable....

Maybe others might think it is normal and acceptable, I happen to think it is not.

When the cost of scrolling a pet gets "that" high because Powerscrolls are held hostage by a handfull of player because of whatever the mechanics to get them are that cause a Monopoly for them, not to mention having multiple pets in a Tamer's stables, it can become a game stopper for a Tamer player which is just not right, to my opinion. 

yes. why is a gold sink a bad thing when there is so much out there? like i said tamers were never suppose to be cheap or easy to make because of the relatively low skill cap to play a finished one.

making people sink gold into a pet is not a bad thing. if you want something powerfull it should cost you gold if not time and effort.

its player choice to min/max pets by having 8 of them not a requirement. consider it a luxury tax.

The only monopoly on powerscrolls are based on ones preference or lack of confidence to just not go get them. It can be done rather easily. You all just want it even easier. 

Scrolls for pets are a good gold sink while at the same time gathering the right jewel from Roof can fetch enough gold to fully scroll a pet or two. 

The entitlement era is rapidly gaining momentum in this game. Hopefully the team shuts it down swiftly. 

drindeth said:

popps said:

drindeth said:

tamers were never suppose to be easy or cheap to make.
because of the ease of use, i believe having to dump gold into them is a good thing. 

Uhu ?

"Dump" gold into pets ?

Really ?

With what many 120s needed by pets cost, a fully scrolled Pet can easily cost hundreds of millions of gold points....

Multiply that for several pets and we are talking of platinums spent in a Tamer's stable....

Maybe others might think it is normal and acceptable, I happen to think it is not.

When the cost of scrolling a pet gets "that" high because Powerscrolls are held hostage by a handfull of player because of whatever the mechanics to get them are that cause a Monopoly for them, not to mention having multiple pets in a Tamer's stables, it can become a game stopper for a Tamer player which is just not right, to my opinion. 

yes. why is a gold sink a bad thing when there is so much out there? like i said tamers were never suppose to be cheap or easy to make because of the relatively low skill cap to play a finished one.

making people sink gold into a pet is not a bad thing. if you want something powerfull it should cost you gold if not time and effort.

its player choice to min/max pets by having 8 of them not a requirement. consider it a luxury tax.

LMMFAO I want what you are smoking.  Power Scrolls ARE NOT A GOLD SINK, the gold you pay fro them goes into another players account.  Do you even play UO, I understand you have an account but really do you know how to play even the basics.

popps said:

Garth_Grey said:

Get a Triton ....nuff said.

Well, with a Triton one can save the powerscrolls for Resist and Wrestling but, depending on the build, other Powerscrolls could still be needed....

Furthermore, there is no pet that can do it all so, just like a Dexer needs to have several Weapons, and a Mageseveral spellbooks depending on the Hunt, so a Tamer needs several, different pets, depending on the Hunt....

So, Powerscrolls are much in need for Tamers, me thinks....

You just proved with this response that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Bilbo said:

drindeth said:

popps said:

drindeth said:

tamers were never suppose to be easy or cheap to make.
because of the ease of use, i believe having to dump gold into them is a good thing. 

Uhu ?

"Dump" gold into pets ?

Really ?

With what many 120s needed by pets cost, a fully scrolled Pet can easily cost hundreds of millions of gold points....

Multiply that for several pets and we are talking of platinums spent in a Tamer's stable....

Maybe others might think it is normal and acceptable, I happen to think it is not.

When the cost of scrolling a pet gets "that" high because Powerscrolls are held hostage by a handfull of player because of whatever the mechanics to get them are that cause a Monopoly for them, not to mention having multiple pets in a Tamer's stables, it can become a game stopper for a Tamer player which is just not right, to my opinion. 

yes. why is a gold sink a bad thing when there is so much out there? like i said tamers were never suppose to be cheap or easy to make because of the relatively low skill cap to play a finished one.

making people sink gold into a pet is not a bad thing. if you want something powerfull it should cost you gold if not time and effort.

its player choice to min/max pets by having 8 of them not a requirement. consider it a luxury tax.

LMMFAO I want what you are smoking.  Power Scrolls ARE NOT A GOLD SINK, the gold you pay fro them goes into another players account.  Do you even play UO, I understand you have an account but really do you know how to play even the basics.

They disappear when used so they can be considered part of the sink along with resources, ingredients and the sort. 

drindeth said:

popps said:

drindeth said:

tamers were never suppose to be easy or cheap to make.
because of the ease of use, i believe having to dump gold into them is a good thing. 

Uhu ?

"Dump" gold into pets ?

Really ?

With what many 120s needed by pets cost, a fully scrolled Pet can easily cost hundreds of millions of gold points....

Multiply that for several pets and we are talking of platinums spent in a Tamer's stable....

Maybe others might think it is normal and acceptable, I happen to think it is not.

When the cost of scrolling a pet gets "that" high because Powerscrolls are held hostage by a handfull of player because of whatever the mechanics to get them are that cause a Monopoly for them, not to mention having multiple pets in a Tamer's stables, it can become a game stopper for a Tamer player which is just not right, to my opinion. 

yes. why is a gold sink a bad thing when there is so much out there? like i said tamers were never suppose to be cheap or easy to make because of the relatively low skill cap to play a finished one.

making people sink gold into a pet is not a bad thing. if you want something powerfull it should cost you gold if not time and effort.

its player choice to min/max pets by having 8 of them not a requirement. consider it a luxury tax.

It is NOT a gold sink, I am afraid....

Only gold changing hands from the hands of the Tamer who grinded to no end to put that gold together, into the hands of the player who sold the Powerscroll at such high prices thanking to a handfull of players having cornered their Market and holding their Monopoly so tight....

The gold stays it all in the game, goes nowhere, only changes plyers' hands....

To divert, slightly, by far the quickest and easiest way to get Felucca treasure maps is by doing the hag's quest in Fel.
Allow me to tell you about my Friday.  I did a hag's quest which got me a Hoard map.When I dug it up I got 2 frost dragons. I got my t hunter safe and sent my stealth herder to move them away a bit. Changed char back and completed the map. My tamer then went and tamed both frosts, but died a few times in the process. To re-build my sacrifice virtue I took my fire crimson to Demon temple to farm fame, which got me a further Cache map (fel of course) I dug that and got a Hoard map, dug that and got a trove map, dug that and got another frost dragon, which I again tamed, but died a couple of times on the way - back to Demon Temple, gained another Cache map. Here I go around again. Getting Fel maps isn't hard - oh and I've got a some +10 mage and eval scrolls set aside now for the planned pets of the char I'm re-skilling to be another tamer.

The players who discuss virtual economics in ultima on these boards, are like the people who play halo and dont understand why marines dont jump while shooting.

Pvper Suits can cost anywhere from 200M - 3 plat.  But you don't here us complaining about it.  That is also per char we make to pvp.  Instead of paying tons of gold some of us just farm the equipment ourselves by doing pvm things, such as roof and underwater boss.  Other people go the route of purchasing gold with rl cash to get their gear,  its just a choice you make.  Overall balancing in this game is needed as well as new content, we don't need this.

Bilbo said:

drindeth said:

LMMFAO I want what you are smoking.  Power Scrolls ARE NOT A GOLD SINK, the gold you pay fro them goes into another players account.  Do you even play UO, I understand you have an account but really do you know how to play even the basics.

ur right i didnt consider that. come to maine ill hook u up with what im smokin. its good stuffs.
but still my point remains the same. sinking gold into pets is not a bad thing. iv already explained why i dont feel i need to do it again.

A good pvp suit you can buy 120's scrolls to 10-20 pets, a good jewel from roof you can buy scroll to 2-3 pets, its a sandbox, you can't force everyone to play the way you want just because you aren't using a char that is made for a situation (champ is for pvp chars not for tamers, roof is for tamers not for pvp char)

Imagine if every pvp player start complain (my pvp char can't solo roof and get a cameo, make a way i can kill roof with my pvp and get cameo by my own)

That don't make sense.

Pvp char can't play without roof arties, but all tamers can play at a good level without +20 scrolls so where's the real problem (in that perspective?)

if you want scrolls do 1 roof you have 30% of chance in get an arty and half of arties worth more then most of the 120 scrolls, and you can do a roof run in 40 min, looks like the same time of a hard spawn, with 0% chance of raid.

If a pvp player want a roof arty he will need search help of a tammer, so why cant a tammer search the help of a pvp player ? again that don't make sense.

@the_higgs_1 and @arielhardy ; - fantastic points, and all pointing back to the interlinking and balance of the game between roles and templates.

PvPers with their suits have it every bit as hard as tamers with pet scrolls - if not worse, but you don't see us non stop complaining about it. We just get on and do what has to be done, we team, we link up, we farm that damn Roof in Trammel...

Cookie said:

@ the_higgs_1 and @ arielhardy  - fantastic points, and all pointing back to the interlinking and balance of the game between roles and templates.

PvPers with their suits have it every bit as hard as tamers with pet scrolls - if not worse, but you don't see us non stop complaining about it. We just get on and do what has to be done, we team, we link up, we farm that damn Roof in Trammel...

How much 120's scrolls i can buy with this pvp item?


"oh its 12 mod, game don't drop anymore"

OK

And a tunic like this? you can scroll some pets without problem with roof loot, but a chance to a pvp guy to farm 1p+ in scrolls to buy 1 suit piece at time will take ages too, and remember, a pvp guy can kill another pvp guy, but a pvm can always farm free.

There are no PvPers to join forces with on LS.  They are all Pkers that kill players then move to the next spawn to look for another player to harass.  They do not actually get scrolls.  Probably cant.

@arielhardy That shield is insanely the best shield I've ever seen, I'm after one like that right at the moment lol.

I'd slaughter an entire stable of fully trained scrolled pets for that shield. 🙂

TimSt said:

If you don't mind starting with stash maps and progressing to higher level maps you can farm tmaps using the treasure quest from the town cryer. When I was farming them I was getting 23 stash maps a week and progressing through the various levels.

Cookie said:

@ arielhardy That shield is insanely the best shield I've ever seen, I'm after one like that right at the moment lol.

I'd slaughter an entire stable of fully trained scrolled pets for that shield. 🙂

I like mine better! 🙂

EDIT: Nevermind. I can't even cut and paste a picture from paint on this stupid forum. So I can't show a picture.

MissE said:

TimSt said:

If you don't mind starting with stash maps and progressing to higher level maps you can farm tmaps using the treasure quest from the town cryer. When I was farming them I was getting 23 stash maps a week and progressing through the various levels.

I do all level fel maps, but for every 10-20 stash maps you do you may get 2-3 supply maps, then you do those and most likely get 0 cache maps.  Sometimes you get a cache out of a supply but not that often. 

I do all my fishing in fel JUST to get the supply maps of serpents, and the odd cache out of an chest. 

Remember you need cache level and above to get scrolls, and then eg of say the 4 cache fel maps I did last week, i got 2 x 105 necro, 1 x 110 anat,  1 x 105 weaving, 2 x 110 stealing, 1 x 110 mace fighting, 1 x 105 swords, 1 x 110 mage, on that basis how long do you think it is gonna take to get enough scrolls to scroll ONE pet to 120 skill?   Out of 4 maps I got ONE 110 anatomy.   Sure sometimes you do better but on average I reckon you get 1/4 useful scrolls even when you do the fel t maps.

Of the SAME skill you are gonna need

8 x 105 to make 1 x 110, then 12 of those to make 1 x 115, then 10 of them to make 120, I mean seriously, the only way scroll binding is useful for pets is if  you spawn in fel continuously in which case you would get the 120's you need and have a huge amount of lower scrolls each time.  One spawn will give you 12 110+ scrolls (with a protector).  I actually do spawns as I refuse to buy scrolls for pets, but even doing them it will be years before I have anywhere near the scrolls I would like for my pets.

I totally agree that there should of been a pet only scroll. 

They should of dropped IN ADDITION to normal power scrolls in fel spawns so would of still been an added 'supply' for sale by spawners but the pet only ones should also of been on the spawns in trammel, eodon, ilshenar and tokuno.  They could of also of been put into the loot table for all higher level mobs as a rare drop like on oni, hiryu, gds, balrons etc.  

My point is the people saying you can scroll em by doing tmaps obviously have no idea just how hard it is to get enough FEL tmaps to even bother.

My point is the people saying you can scroll em by doing tmaps obviously have no idea just how hard it is to get enough FEL tmaps to even bother.

Quoted for truth.

It is nigh to impossible to bind 110s from Treasure Maps to get 120s as it would take FOREVER to get all of the same exact ones one hundred and twenty 110s needed to make a 120, it would simply take way too many Treasure Maps to be digged up and Treasure Maps have only a 1% chance to spawn as loot on Monsters.

As I said, it was a step in the right direction towards making it available an alternate source for Powerscrolls other then the Champion Spawns but it fall too short, to my opinion....

It should have been Powerscrolls spawning up to 115s in ALL Facets with a rare chance at seeing also 120s spawn in Hoard or Trove Treasure Maps in Felucca.

THEN, it would have become more feasible to get 120s in an alternate way to Champion Spawns and thus break the Monopoly that forces their prices way too high because only a few players are able to corner their Market....

That is at least how I see it.

beating a dead horse.. that is all that is happening here.

I disagree, I think this is a good discussion to have.

Again, our PVP friends are trying to make the case that the system is working perfectly as-is while the rest of us are trying to explain that tying an endgame mechanic behind a system prone to griefing is really problematic. It just doesn't make for a meaningful, fun experience.

Everyone has a different idea of what 'the' version of Ultima Online is. That people are still trying to litigate the Trammel vs Felucca/risk vs reward model twenty years later is, in my view, short-sighted. The game has evolved so much since then.

I think the reasonable compromise is pet scrolls. It gives us a new mechanic to explore, maintains the status quo of high-end powerscrolls available from spawns, and brings the pressure down on the price of player powerscrolls. 

drindeth said:

beating a dead horse.. that is all that is happening here.

If only the horse had 120's and not just 115's it might have lived, im sure.

I do Fel tmaps.i do champ spawns with my guild sometimes we get raided sometimes we don't . in the last 2 weeks we got off 6 spawns with no raids i got 0 120 PS a tamer might need 0 primers of any value(btw you know you can get that taming 3 from a tram spawn right) even if lord british rose from the grave and protected you from evil PKers the odds of getting the 120 you want(and times that by the 8 most tamers dream of) are minuscule ! so even if your dream came true and 120 started dropping in Tram the rarity would keep the prices high I do agree that most PvPers don't want to fight for the love of fighting but it is their job to kill you and take things 

Jepeth said:

I disagree, I think this is a good discussion to have.

Again, our PVP friends are trying to make the case that the system is working perfectly as-is while the rest of us are trying to explain that tying an endgame mechanic behind a system prone to griefing is really problematic. It just doesn't make for a meaningful, fun experience.

Your bias is showing, and that is one of the biggest problems to having a productive conversation... Killing someone at a champ spawn is not griefing... Players competing over powerscrolls is the intended mechanic. The fact that some players do not enjoy that mechanic is not evidence that it is broken. There are players who do find that competing for powerscrolls makes for a "meaningful, fun experience" (as much as one can say that about anything in UO). Those players do not deserve to have the content they enjoy destroyed simply because others do not enjoy the content or because of other players greed over the reward for that content. Consider for a minute this alternative... how about we add powerscrolls to tram and move ALL other drops to Fel. Then you can get every powerscroll you ever wanted by farming spawns non-stop. Do you think that would resolve the issue? No. It isn't about what the reward is... its that people want it with no risk. I am sorry, but I think there should be some desirable rewards for players who are willing to take the risk of fel to acquire it.

WornOutYourTool said:

drindeth said:

beating a dead horse.. that is all that is happening here.

If only the horse had 120's and not just 115's it might have lived, im sure.

good troll i can appreciate that.

Merus said:

Your bias is showing, and that is one of the biggest problems to having a productive conversation... Killing someone at a champ spawn is not griefing... Players competing over powerscrolls is the intended mechanic. The fact that some players do not enjoy that mechanic is not evidence that it is broken. There are players who do find that competing for powerscrolls makes for a "meaningful, fun experience" (as much as one can say that about anything in UO). Those players do not deserve to have the content they enjoy destroyed simply because others do not enjoy the content or because of other players greed over the reward for that content. Consider for a minute this alternative... how about we add powerscrolls to tram and move ALL other drops to Fel. Then you can get every powerscroll you ever wanted by farming spawns non-stop. Do you think that would resolve the issue? No. It isn't about what the reward is... its that people want it with no risk. I am sorry, but I think there should be some desirable rewards for players who are willing to take the risk of fel to acquire it.

pretty much this.
and ps's arent really a reward for pvp i dont think. for pvpers its not really about the reward like it is for pvmers. just something fun-ish to do. so the argument about you need to be lured to fel isnt really a thing for most people. on the other hand tho people are indeed lured to trammel if you want to spin it that way. who would do any of that content for nothing? nobody. needing to revamp old content/artifacts proves this. its dead content because its not worth anything, thus not really being a reward. so people dont really do it 

Merus said:

Killing someone at a champ spawn is not griefing... Players competing over powerscrolls is the intended mechanic. 

I am not unbiased in this matter. I have a point-of-view and am trying to make an argument for how I believe the game can be improved.

Just because killing other players doesn't fit your definition of griefing doesn't change the fact that to many people getting res-killed over and over while trying for that slim chance of a good powerscroll IS griefing. Getting locked out of end game content because of player-killers is a bad mechanic whether it was intended by the developers or not.

Your example and central argument seems be a zero-sum game, it does not need to be. Changing the game to make a better experience for everyone does not inherently mean your preferred play-style will suffer. Pet scrolls would be a good compromise.

Many of us believe the system does not work. Many of our PVP friends in this thread believe the status-quo should not be changed. A compromise can be found between both positions. But saying that the topic isn't worthy of discussion or that we should just 'get over it' doesn't help the game.

Jepeth said:

Merus said:

Killing someone at a champ spawn is not griefing... Players competing over powerscrolls is the intended mechanic. 

I am not unbiased in this matter. I have a point-of-view and am trying to make an argument for how I believe the game can be improved.

Just because killing other players doesn't fit your definition of griefing doesn't change the fact that to many people getting res-killed over and over while trying for that slim chance of a good powerscroll IS griefing. Getting locked out of end game content because of player-killers is a bad mechanic whether it was intended by the developers or not.

Your example and central argument seems be a zero-sum game, it does not need to be. Changing the game to make a better experience for everyone does not inherently mean your preferred play-style will suffer. Pet scrolls would be a good compromise.

Many of us believe the system does not work. Many of our PVP friends in this thread believe the status-quo should not be changed. A compromise can be found between both positions. But saying that the topic isn't worthy of discussion or that we should just 'get over it' doesn't help the game.

1. You are making an argument of how you think the game can be improved... for you.  No different than if I said I think the game would be improved if ALL drops were only available in Fel.  Its only an improvement based on your point of view, which you have admitted is biased.

2. A dragon can res kill a player just as easy as a player can.  Getting res-killed is often more about the player getting ressed in a vulnerable position rather than about who/what is doing the killing.  Regardless of whether its a mob or a player, getting killed or reskilled is not griefing even if you find it distasteful.  If you don't believe, me... go to a Siege EM event and watch all the players die over and over and over to mobs... then tell me how the mobs are griefing the pvpers.

3. No one has made a single argument about how the system doesn't work... the only argument is that you don't like it.  There is a HUGE difference in something not working and not liking something. 

4. 120 powerscrolls are hard to come by, regardless of if you get them from T-maps or from spawns.  Thinking that the only powerscrolls that you can use on a pet are 120s is also foolish.  IMO, the powerscroll market does not need changes, either in ease of getting 120s or in making pet specific powerscrolls.  Few things in UO have held their value over the years as well as powerscrolls specifically because of how the powerscroll market works.  I believe they represent a superior economic model compared to the endlessly increasing powercreep that so much of the other rewards in UO follow.  And this is coming from someone who doesn't buy or sell powerscrolls.  I take the risk in fel to get the ones I need.  Extras I save for a rainy day or give to guildies who need them.

Merus said:

Jepeth said:

I disagree, I think this is a good discussion to have.

Again, our PVP friends are trying to make the case that the system is working perfectly as-is while the rest of us are trying to explain that tying an endgame mechanic behind a system prone to griefing is really problematic. It just doesn't make for a meaningful, fun experience.

Your bias is showing, and that is one of the biggest problems to having a productive conversation... Killing someone at a champ spawn is not griefing... Players competing over powerscrolls is the intended mechanic. The fact that some players do not enjoy that mechanic is not evidence that it is broken. There are players who do find that competing for powerscrolls makes for a "meaningful, fun experience" (as much as one can say that about anything in UO). Those players do not deserve to have the content they enjoy destroyed simply because others do not enjoy the content or because of other players greed over the reward for that content. Consider for a minute this alternative... how about we add powerscrolls to tram and move ALL other drops to Fel. Then you can get every powerscroll you ever wanted by farming spawns non-stop. Do you think that would resolve the issue? No. It isn't about what the reward is... its that people want it with no risk. I am sorry, but I think there should be some desirable rewards for players who are willing to take the risk of fel to acquire it.

To my understanding, the point is not to want something with no risk but rather, to play a game without having to deal with hacking, cheating, Third Party applications and what not that "at times" are used in PvP.......

Not to mention, the trash talking and other abusive language that sometimes one bumping in PvP gets to face...

Why the hell, if I may ask, anyone wanting to play a GAME to relax from work, school and what not should need to risk subject themselves to cheaters and players using abusive language because they need Powerscrolls for their pets or even their characters and this only because there is no other alternate way that they can get them without having to risk bumping into hackers, cheaters or what not or have to see derogative language pop up on their screen ?

The key word here, is GAME, some people could not care less about being competitive, they only want to RELAX at their keyboard and do something they can enjoy for that half an hour or hour that they may have of playing time....

Some people enjoy fighting others ? Cool !

Why do you need an EXCUSE to fight others ?

You enjoy fighting ? Go for it !

There is NO NEED, to my opinion, to have an excuse for something to fight over with "if" the one enjoyment is THE fight versus another player....

If one enjoys PvP, they would PvP whether or not there is Powercrolls or anything else to fight over for.

Personally, I disagree with a Design that uses items as "baits" to bring players to then become targets to fellow players....

PvP, I think, should be played by those who enjoy it and regardless whether or not there is anything to win over for..... what the heck, the win is having won over a fellow player, right ?

That is what "competition" is all about as I understand....

So, Powerscrolls or ANY other item for that matter, could be well left OUT of PvP, entirely, and let PvP those players who REALLY want it.... not over items, but over who is the best player....

Like when people go fight in the Arena.....

Do they do it to win anything ? Nope, as I understand it....

They just do it for the sake of PvP, to show themselves and to others who is the better fighter....

That is what PvP land should be, to my opinion, a place where people fight for the sake of it, not to take items away from fellow players, corner a market, create a Monopoly and thus become able to gouge prices up at their free will for those items.

That is at least the way I see it.

1. You are entitled to the view that all drops should be in Felucca. But as we're discussing game mechanics in an MMO it would mean the whole population would be forced in a playstyle they don't find fun. You saying that I'm arguing to improve the game for me alone, that is incorrect. Have you ever heard the phrase 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?' I believe the game can be improved by making changes to a mechanic that many (as evidenced by the people commenting in this thread and the OP) have suggested does not work.
2. A player dying to a dragon isn't griefing because the dragon isn't controlled by another player attempting to exploit the vulnerabilities of another. PVP is just that, and again, if that's your bag: great. But why is end-game content locked behind a system I am forced into? They may have built it that way but it doesn't mean it's good.
3. Plenty of people have made an argument the system does not work. And they change the game all the time to improve the quality of life experience of players. If they didn't this wouldn't be a very fun, or long-lasting game.
4. I'm happy that the system works for you, truly. But again your experience isn't universal for every player, ever shard. Neither is mine. But game mechanics can be changed to make a better experience for everyone. That isn't powercreep, it's evolution. The game is going to change. Let's discuss ways we can improve it and find equitable compromises.
   
   

you need to understand is the system dosnt work for you... and that is the only argument you guys are really making. you can say it over and over 100 times 100 different ways its still the same argument.  there are many systems i feel dont work for me in this game but i let it go because i know and understand because it dosnt work for me dosnt mean it should change. especially when there are alternate solutions its not like you are locked out of the content. you just dont enjoy what you have to do to get the things. i dont really enjoy doing roof... so i do other things and just buy drops from the roof..... do i say they should nerf roof i should be able to do it with one account so that it is accesable to everyone? i do not.  it drives me crazy that people cant understand that simple point. 

and popps. every post you ever make starts with something about cheaters/scripters. please stop. its very sad. your opinions are your own but it makes you seem sad and salty when every post mentions it.

drindeth said:

you need to understand is the system dosnt work for you... and that is the only argument you guys are really making. you can say it over and over 100 times 100 different ways its still the same argument.  there are many systems i feel dont work for me in this game but i let it go because i know and understand because it dosnt work for me dosnt mean it should change. especially when there are alternate solutions its not like you are locked out of the content. you just dont enjoy what you have to do to get the things. i dont really enjoy doing roof... so i do other things and just buy drops from the roof..... do i say they should nerf roof i should be able to do it with one account so that it is accesable to everyone? i do not.  it drives me crazy that people cant understand that simple point. 

and popps. every post you ever make starts with something about cheaters/scripters. please stop. its very sad. your opinions are your own but it makes you seem sad and salty when every post mentions it.

Because Ultima Online is void of cheaters ?

Ah, OK.....

Then all of the duping, hacking, scripting, Third Partying etc. etc. that I have heard being discussed "ad nauseam" over the time that have played UO must have been from an alternate reality....

popps said:

Merus said:

Jepeth said:

I disagree, I think this is a good discussion to have.

Again, our PVP friends are trying to make the case that the system is working perfectly as-is while the rest of us are trying to explain that tying an endgame mechanic behind a system prone to griefing is really problematic. It just doesn't make for a meaningful, fun experience.

Your bias is showing, and that is one of the biggest problems to having a productive conversation... Killing someone at a champ spawn is not griefing... Players competing over powerscrolls is the intended mechanic. The fact that some players do not enjoy that mechanic is not evidence that it is broken. There are players who do find that competing for powerscrolls makes for a "meaningful, fun experience" (as much as one can say that about anything in UO). Those players do not deserve to have the content they enjoy destroyed simply because others do not enjoy the content or because of other players greed over the reward for that content. Consider for a minute this alternative... how about we add powerscrolls to tram and move ALL other drops to Fel. Then you can get every powerscroll you ever wanted by farming spawns non-stop. Do you think that would resolve the issue? No. It isn't about what the reward is... its that people want it with no risk. I am sorry, but I think there should be some desirable rewards for players who are willing to take the risk of fel to acquire it.

To my understanding, the point is not to want something with no risk but rather, to play a game without having to deal with hacking, cheating, Third Party applications and what not that "at times" are used in PvP.......

Not to mention, the trash talking and other abusive language that sometimes one bumping in PvP gets to face...

Why the hell, if I may ask, anyone wanting to play a GAME to relax from work, school and what not should need to risk subject themselves to cheaters and players using abusive language because they need Powerscrolls for their pets or even their characters and this only because there is no other alternate way that they can get them without having to risk bumping into hackers, cheaters or what not or have to see derogative language pop up on their screen ?

The key word here, is GAME, some people could not care less about being competitive, they only want to RELAX at their keyboard and do something they can enjoy for that half an hour or hour that they may have of playing time....

Some people enjoy fighting others ? Cool !

Why do you need an EXCUSE to fight others ?

You enjoy fighting ? Go for it !

There is NO NEED, to my opinion, to have an excuse for something to fight over with "if" the one enjoyment is THE fight versus another player....

If one enjoys PvP, they would PvP whether or not there is Powercrolls or anything else to fight over for.

Personally, I disagree with a Design that uses items as "baits" to bring players to then become targets to fellow players....

PvP, I think, should be played by those who enjoy it and regardless whether or not there is anything to win over for..... what the heck, the win is having won over a fellow player, right ?

That is what "competition" is all about as I understand....

So, Powerscrolls or ANY other item for that matter, could be well left OUT of PvP, entirely, and let PvP those players who REALLY want it.... not over items, but over who is the best player....

Like when people go fight in the Arena.....

Do they do it to win anything ? Nope, as I understand it....

They just do it for the sake of PvP, to show themselves and to others who is the better fighter....

That is what PvP land should be, to my opinion, a place where people fight for the sake of it, not to take items away from fellow players, corner a market, create a Monopoly and thus become able to gouge prices up at their free will for those items.

That is at least the way I see it.

I have already rebuted your argument against cheating... it is far more prevalent and destructive in Tram.  If you want to curb cheating, you should be advocting to eliminate Tram, not Fel.  I will not respond to further this line of justification as it is totally without merit.

Jepeth said:

1. You are entitled to the view that all drops should be in Felucca. But as we're discussing game mechanics in an MMO it would mean the whole population would be forced in a playstyle they don't find fun. You saying that I'm arguing to improve the game for me alone, that is incorrect. Have you ever heard the phrase 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?' I believe the game can be improved by making changes to a mechanic that many (as evidenced by the people commenting in this thread and the OP) have suggested does not work.
2. A player dying to a dragon isn't griefing because the dragon isn't controlled by another player attempting to exploit the vulnerabilities of another. PVP is just that, and again, if that's your bag: great. But why is end-game content locked behind a system I am forced into? They may have built it that way but it doesn't mean it's good.
3. Plenty of people have made an argument the system does not work. And they change the game all the time to improve the quality of life experience of players. If they didn't this wouldn't be a very fun, or long-lasting game.
4. I'm happy that the system works for you, truly. But again your experience isn't universal for every player, ever shard. Neither is mine. But game mechanics can be changed to make a better experience for everyone. That isn't powercreep, it's evolution. The game is going to change. Let's discuss ways we can improve it and find equitable compromises.
   
   

Unfortunately your logic is circular. 

The point is that there should be parts of UO that work for every kind of player, not that ALL of UO should work for one kind of player.  As long as you are willing to destroy what is unique for one set of UO players to suit your own desires, there is likely no getting through to you.

Powerscrolls and stat scroll are unique and should stay like it is, I agree.

But this thread is about Pet Powerscrolls being an alternative
way to let Trammel Players be able get their own. 

Would a middle ground work? Say they do make pet specific scrolls, would it
be reasonable to ask for only 105's and 110's drop in Trammel Champs?

So now the pvp's get all the player type powerscrolls (except the rare Fel map low ones)
and they get all the pet type powerscrolls of 115 and 120!

It will still take a long time to reach the 120's via binding, but least we have a chance in it 
doing the game play style we enjoy.

popps said:

Because Ultima Online is void of cheaters ?

no, and i never said it was. so please dont put words in my mouth and please dont get so offended it just gets old hearing about it all the time and u cant let it go. it was a suggestion more than anything.

i still disagree with pet only powerscrolls imo grace. use a different source of power if its that much of an issue.  use imbuing regs or something instead of powerscrolls then. tho my opinion is if you change it, it is a bad move. 

i think that tram spawns at one time had powerscroll drops if i remember correct. the ones in ilshnar. i think they took them out because it was completely exploited.

i hear a lot about " so we can attain these in a way we enjoy"  this is still just opinion of 1 group over another. i would like to have all content be pvp contested.... you dont see me advocating for this tho because i can understand not everyones into it.  its not only pvmers that can have an opinion on things i just wish people would step back and take a look at the bigger picture not the bubble they seem to be in.

iv said it before you need pvp and pvm for the game to be a success. the powerscrolls being in demand is what brings pvmers out to try their luck. which gives pvpers something to do. its the circle of uo life. its been that way since beta. (not powerscrolls since beta. back in the day it was just simply gold. but the point is there)

if you cant hang in fel, get a group of friends to go with you. and make a plan. dont all go as pvmers. go knowing that you might get in a fight. try to defend a spawn, play the game. you might actually end up enjoying yourself. 

i do spawns solo all the time and i always have a pvp chara ready to roll when my samp or tamer goes down. if i win good. if not. oh well i knew the chance was there. i help stuck and leave or walk out. i dont just fresh res and go back to it, that is silly. if your still in the area you are still in the fight. if you want to be out of the fight.... just dont res. swallow your pride and walk away. come back tomorrow and try again

drindeth said:

i dont really enjoy doing roof... so i do other things and just buy drops from the roof..... do i say they should nerf roof i should be able to do it with one account so that it is accesable to everyone? i do not.  it drives me crazy that people cant understand that simple point. 

Merus said:

The point is that there should be parts of UO that work for every kind of player, not that ALL of UO should work for one kind of player.  As long as you are willing to destroy what is unique for one set of UO players to suit your own desires, there is likely no getting through to you.

drindeth you are not locked out of the roof by other players. I'm sorry, but that truly is the heart of the matter. The arc of this game's history has been adding more consensual systems atop of the sandbox. 

Merus I'm trying to discuss ways the game can be improved for everyone. Do you have suggestions other than 'the status quo which works great for a certain few people at the expense of others?'

drindeth you are not locked out of the roof by other players. I'm sorry, but that truly is the heart of the matter. The arc of this game's history has been adding more consensual systems atop of the sandbox. 

i never said i was...... i said i cannot personally do it with one account so i do other content for gold then just buy the rooftop stuffs cus its easier that way. 

either you didnt understand the point or i failed to make it. either way hope u get the comparrison now

Merus said:

I have already rebuted your argument against cheating... it is far more prevalent and destructive in Tram.  If you want to curb cheating, you should be advocating to eliminate Tram, not Fel.  I will not respond to further this line of justification as it is totally without merit.

Oh I am trust me, lol, I have been for a long time. 🙂

But guys, good posts!

Jepeth said:

 

Merus said:

"... The arc of this game's history has been adding more consensual systems atop of the sandbox. 

Putting 90% of the games rewards systems into a risk free, exploitable, ungoverned environment was certainly not consensual to me...

Norry said:

Popps, take a spellweaver/necro to a champ,  have a few pixies or imps and summoned undead guard you. Shoukd be hard to be pked when you can have several flamestrikes land on your attacker.

      As for getting heckled at, this is an mmo.

No game you play online will you find people who wont troll you. For some, the only enjoyment they find is smack talking. Also, any game you play online, people will find a way to cheat.

      If you cant do it solo, then get 4-6 other people and do one. It will go faster, and with a headset, you can communicate faster, and coordinate a defense. There is no bigger rush than running off raiders.

All that being said, if you are asking for the game to be changed without trying to change yourself(grow, or adapt), then... ::shrug::

You know, if all of the people across mankind history who saw things they did not like had not stood up to voice their differing points of view and tried to ask for changes to the "status quo", we would still be in the middle ages era or even before then with Overlords having life and death power on people, Unions not existing, Civil Rights being unknown of and on and on....

Sure, it is a game, so what ?

If there are things that one thinks are working wrong to their opinion, I think that nonetheless they are in all rights to voice up for changing that status quo to something better for that game....

At least, that is how I see it.

Grace said:

Powerscrolls and stat scroll are unique and should stay like it is, I agree.

But this thread is about Pet Powerscrolls being an alternative
way to let Trammel Players be able get their own. 

Would a middle ground work? Say they do make pet specific scrolls, would it
be reasonable to ask for only 105's and 110's drop in Trammel Champs?

So now the pvp's get all the player type powerscrolls (except the rare Fel map low ones)
and they get all the pet type powerscrolls of 115 and 120!

It will still take a long time to reach the 120's via binding, but least we have a chance in it 
doing the game play style we enjoy.

And Grace - due to having far less players then previously, or far less newer players, the powerscroll market had almost died prior to the Pet expansion. Having Pet Powerscrolls would be a direct take-away from the Scroll Market, and quite a huge one probably. I don't think there is much middle ground to be had. That is probably why the Felucca T Map solution is so tough.

Quite honestly, the Statscroll Market - ie the Harrower, the pinnacle of Felucca play, is pretty much dead. Like Primers, the Market is full, and complete. A statscroll is worth 6m, you can't sell them. They may have gone up to 10m recently, because no-one does them anymore, no-one even has a team left that can do them in the face of an entire server, we used to, we used to be peerless and untouchable, we can't pull it off anymore, very few can.

Powerscrolls would not be far off.

If you actually did this, I believe half of the games players would quit the game, as they would have no challenge or nothing useful or fun to play for.

Jepeth said:

drindeth said:

i dont really enjoy doing roof... so i do other things and just buy drops from the roof..... do i say they should nerf roof i should be able to do it with one account so that it is accesable to everyone? i do not.  it drives me crazy that people cant understand that simple point. 

Merus said:

The point is that there should be parts of UO that work for every kind of player, not that ALL of UO should work for one kind of player.  As long as you are willing to destroy what is unique for one set of UO players to suit your own desires, there is likely no getting through to you.

drindeth you are not locked out of the roof by other players. I'm sorry, but that truly is the heart of the matter. The arc of this game's history has been adding more consensual systems atop of the sandbox. 

Merus I'm trying to discuss ways the game can be improved for everyone. Do you have suggestions other than 'the status quo which works great for a certain few people at the expense of others?'

How can you take something, virtually that last remaining thing, away from the pvp players and improve the game for everyone?? You can't.  What you propose is giving something to the group of players that has EVERYTHING else at the expense of the players who only have powerscrolls left.  You have EVERY other drop this game has to offer, but it still isn't enough...  By my count the devs have done more than enough to "improve" the game for the tram based crowd.  

For the life of me I can't make sense of that thinking other than just flat out greed and disregard for players who enjoy a different playstyle than yourself.

So let's be clear here: what are we taking away exactly? Is that your supply of unwilling victims? No one is suggesting you can't PVP with other PVP-consenting players all day long. A lot of us are looking for a change in a game mechanic that profoundly doesn't work for us.

And you also have every other drop the game has to offer. You can play Trammel characters unrestricted. As a lot of us have been trying to explain: there isn't a viable Felucca character solution for everyone.

Jepeth said:

So let's be clear here: what are we taking away exactly? Is that your supply of unwilling victims? No one is suggesting you can't PVP with other PVP-consenting players all day long. A lot of us are looking for a change in a game mechanic that profoundly doesn't work for us.

And you also have every other drop the game has to offer. You can play Trammel characters unrestricted. As a lot of us have been trying to explain: there isn't a viable Felucca character solution for everyone.

PvPrs like to use this excuse, the bottom line is this, if they really enjoyed the aspect of player vs player fighting, they would do it simply for that. That's not the truth. They want the added benefit of being able to take from someone else that's not as equally skilled  as them...period..Change my mind..

Jepeth said:

So let's be clear here: what are we taking away exactly? Is that your supply of unwilling victims? No one is suggesting you can't PVP with other PVP-consenting players all day long. A lot of us are looking for a change in a game mechanic that profoundly doesn't work for us.

And you also have every other drop the game has to offer. You can play Trammel characters unrestricted. As a lot of us have been trying to explain: there isn't a viable Felucca character solution for everyone.

Maybe specific skills or playstyles have rewards unique to them... treasure hunting, fishing, crafting, felucca, etc.  Making those rewards available by other means removes the unique reward for that specific content.  Who fills BoD for nothing?  Who would dig up a treasure chest if it was empty?  Fel champs spawns would be pointless if the same reward was available in tram with no risk.

Every player in UO has exactly the same opportunity to do tram content, your exactly right... every player has exactly the same opportunity to make a fisher, or a treasure hunter, or a BoD filler, or a PvPer.  Some like fishing.  Some like BoDs.  Some like PvP.  Its OK for people to not like everything UO has to offer.... that doesn't mean that Fel is closed to you.

The simple fact is there is not a single argument you have made about Fel, that can't be applied exactly the same way to Tram.  Some people don't like PvP... we ALL get it.  THAT is not justification for removing the PvP content and rewards ANYMORE, than I can justify removing BoDs because they "don't work for me".

Garth_Grey said:

Jepeth said:

So let's be clear here: what are we taking away exactly? Is that your supply of unwilling victims? No one is suggesting you can't PVP with other PVP-consenting players all day long. A lot of us are looking for a change in a game mechanic that profoundly doesn't work for us.

And you also have every other drop the game has to offer. You can play Trammel characters unrestricted. As a lot of us have been trying to explain: there isn't a viable Felucca character solution for everyone.

PvPrs like to use this excuse, the bottom line is this, if they really enjoyed the aspect of player vs player fighting, they would do it simply for that. That's not the truth. They want the added benefit of being able to take from someone else that's not as equally skilled  as them...period..Change my mind..

If the roof had no reward, it would never get done.  If BoDs had no reward, they would never get filled.  If treasure chests were empty, they would never get dug up.  If Mongbats dropped the same loot as Exodus, he would live forever.

No one forces Fel on anyone anymore than I am forced to do the roof.  If I want a cameo, I have a choice... do the roof or buy it.  If you want a powerscroll, you have the same choice... do the content or buy it.  Fel doesn't need a solution for everyone... nothing in UO needs a solution for everyone... its a sandbox MMO.

I want a Demon Cameo, but i dont want do the roof i think it dont fit my style of play, because that the uo devs need change the whole game and make cameos drop when i chop a tree, because its how i want.

Merus said:

Jepeth said:

So let's be clear here: what are we taking away exactly? Is that your supply of unwilling victims? No one is suggesting you can't PVP with other PVP-consenting players all day long. A lot of us are looking for a change in a game mechanic that profoundly doesn't work for us.

And you also have every other drop the game has to offer. You can play Trammel characters unrestricted. As a lot of us have been trying to explain: there isn't a viable Felucca character solution for everyone.

Maybe specific skills or playstyles have rewards unique to them... treasure hunting, fishing, crafting, felucca, etc.  Making those rewards available by other means removes the unique reward for that specific content.  Who fills BoD for nothing?  Who would dig up a treasure chest if it was empty?  Fel champs spawns would be pointless if the same reward was available in tram with no risk.

Again, the compromise I and others have suggested is to keep player powerscrolls the way they are and add pet scrolls. The cost of scrolls goes down, PVPers can still prey on those who run champion spawns, and we all get a new mechanic to explore.

Make no mistake, I think non-consensual pvp is a terrible gameplay mechanic that they've been rightfully chipping away at since the beginning. But, and again this is critical, changing the game does not have to be viewed in a zero-sum frame as you seem to want to focus on. Improving the game for some doesn't ruin it for others. There are plenty of other ways to PVP with each other that does not lock end-game content away.

As it happens there is a great consensual PVP mechanic with unique rewards. If there were less reasons for people to go to Felucca and deal with a champion spawn I'm sure you all could still find something to do.

Merus said:

The simple fact is there is not a single argument you have made about Fel, that can't be applied exactly the same way to Tram.  Some people don't like PvP... we ALL get it.  THAT is not justification for removing the PvP content and rewards ANYMORE, than I can justify removing BoDs because they "don't work for me".

This is utter bull, Factions and then VvV is the only PvP content that UO put in for PvPers.  PvMers do spawns not PvPers and then when the Spawn is almost done or just done then the PKERS come in to kill players set up to kill a spawn and steel the PSs so PLEASE stop with your BS miss-information.  Powerscrolls have absolutely nothing to do with PvP.

Jepeth said:

So let's be clear here: what are we taking away exactly? Is that your supply of unwilling victims? No one is suggesting you can't PVP with other PVP-consenting players all day long. A lot of us are looking for a change in a game mechanic that profoundly doesn't work for us.

And you also have every other drop the game has to offer. You can play Trammel characters unrestricted. As a lot of us have been trying to explain: there isn't a viable Felucca character solution for everyone.

Precisely.

If there is players who enjoy engaging in PvP, the way I see it is that they do not need an excuse to engage in a fight !!

Someone wants to PvP ? Go do it wherever it is allowed !!

Why there has to be a "bait" to attract other players to where PvP is consented so that they then become the targets of other players ?

I find the use of items to get players to then become targets of other players and be forced to have to engage in a gameplay style which they do not like nor enjoy, quite disapprovable of.

The satisfaction of PvP should be winning a fight over a fellow player one has engaged with, not over any given item.

Those who want to PvP could fight one another as much as they wanted, the point here is that this should not cut players who do not want to PvP, whatever their reasons, out of items or contents which they need, like Powerscrolls are.

That's how I see it.

Merus said:

Garth_Grey said:

Jepeth said:

So let's be clear here: what are we taking away exactly? Is that your supply of unwilling victims? No one is suggesting you can't PVP with other PVP-consenting players all day long. A lot of us are looking for a change in a game mechanic that profoundly doesn't work for us.

And you also have every other drop the game has to offer. You can play Trammel characters unrestricted. As a lot of us have been trying to explain: there isn't a viable Felucca character solution for everyone.

PvPrs like to use this excuse, the bottom line is this, if they really enjoyed the aspect of player vs player fighting, they would do it simply for that. That's not the truth. They want the added benefit of being able to take from someone else that's not as equally skilled  as them...period..Change my mind..

If the roof had no reward, it would never get done.  If BoDs had no reward, they would never get filled.  If treasure chests were empty, they would never get dug up.  If Mongbats dropped the same loot as Exodus, he would live forever.

No one forces Fel on anyone anymore than I am forced to do the roof.  If I want a cameo, I have a choice... do the roof or buy it.  If you want a powerscroll, you have the same choice... do the content or buy it.  Fel doesn't need a solution for everyone... nothing in UO needs a solution for everyone... its a sandbox MMO.

It is not the same analogy, sorry.

People do Roof or BODs or other PvM content for the items.

PvP, instead, is over who wins the fight, who is a better fighter. That is why often players go to the Arena and fight one another....

So, while Roof, BODs or any other game content would have no reason to exist if it did not give items, PvP without any item to fight over for, could very well still exist because its reason to exist is not items, but winning a fight over another player....

Player versus Player..... that is how it is called....

And Player versus Player it would remain IN FULL, even if there were no items to fight over for, because the reason for this particular gameplay style is to fight other players and show that one can win fello players in a fight.

It is only a sad thing, to my opinion, that items might be used to "bait" other players who need those items, to have to subject themselves to a gameplay style which they do not like, not enjoy and not want to play, because they have no realistic and reasonable alternative to it to get those items and this, because these players need to become targets for other players to shoot at ?

Excuse me ?

ArielHardy said:

I want a Demon Cameo, but i dont want do the roof i think it dont fit my style of play, because that the uo devs need change the whole game and make cameos drop when i chop a tree, because its how i want.

There is no other item in Ultima Online that is so much a "must have" as Powerscrolls.

Both for characters AND pets.

Without raising up skills neither characters nor pets can do much, especially with Monsters always beefed up to "keep up" with items being released in the game always more powerfull (itemization of a game where items gets stronger and stronger and stronger as time goes by).

So, while one could very well do without a Demon Cameo (and many do play without one), it is not the same when it comes to Powerscrolls, I am afraid.

And that is the big problem lamented by many.... to have such "must have" items involve imposing PvP onto players even they do not want, like or enjoy it, is what causes so much issues.

AND, mind you, another detail that is quite important, while with a Demon Cameo after getting 1 a player is done and can get on with his/her UO life, with Powerscrolls 1 is not enough as they are needed for several skills, and then for pets, and then for multiple pets which a Tamer might have...

I am sorry, but it ain't possible, to my viewing, to compare other items in UO with Powerscrolls.

Bilbo said:

Merus said:

The simple fact is there is not a single argument you have made about Fel, that can't be applied exactly the same way to Tram.  Some people don't like PvP... we ALL get it.  THAT is not justification for removing the PvP content and rewards ANYMORE, than I can justify removing BoDs because they "don't work for me".

This is utter bull, Factions and then VvV is the only PvP content that UO put in for PvPers.  PvMers do spawns not PvPers and then when the Spawn is almost done or just done then the PKERS come in to kill players set up to kill a spawn and steel the PSs so PLEASE stop with your BS miss-information.  Powerscrolls have absolutely nothing to do with PvP.

Well said.

I'd suggest they remove all rewards from Shadowguard, Doom, Exodus, Treasure Maps, Monsters, Abyss, Shadowlords, etc, so we can see through the lie that you are all PvMing and using your Pets just for the sheer bliss and fun of it.

Because of course that's what you are all projecting you do.

In my opinion, you are doing it for the rewards, to help character progression etc, help build your accounts and playstyles to achieve different challenges, to gain extra rewards, to achieve other challenges.

The thing is, your challenges are easy by a PvPers standards, we need something harder. We don't need pre-programmed AI that a repetitive script can be built to beat, we need the best Human AI out there to compete against (yes of course there are cheats on both sides of the coin, can we see through these for a second). But like the rest of you, we like there to be a point, an objective, rewards for winning are certainly part of mans inbuilt psyche.

I've never ever said I go out to PvP just because, I've always said PvP is like a competitive sport, we go out to win something, you always try and put those words into our mouths, "oh we would PvP for the sheer bliss and fun of it - surely you are to". Let me see you doing that in PvM, and maybe I'll reconsider that it is a possible human characteristic. PvP is a competitive playstyle that we prepare harder for, than PvM. It is the next level of gameplay up, and you all seek to neuter it all the time because you cannot cope.

popps said:

Bilbo said:

This is utter bull, Factions and then VvV is the only PvP content that UO put in for PvPers.  PvMers do spawns not PvPers and then when the Spawn is almost done or just done then the PKERS come in to kill players set up to kill a spawn and steel the PSs so PLEASE stop with your BS miss-information.  Powerscrolls have absolutely nothing to do with PvP.

Well said.

And absolute rubbish. PvP guilds do spawns properly and most successfully.

PvMers usually do it poorly, usually solo, usually get raided and lose everything, then come running to the forums because they are not doing it properly and cannot cope. Or give up. Oh look, that's what you guys are doing!

Talk me through the Justice Virtue a second? What does it do, what is the point of it? Ahh that's right, it's so a PvMer can get a second stealth account and get more scrolls. Lol.

There are only a handful of PvMers that use their brains and navigate Felucca well enough to get spawns done regularly and successfully.

This thread has taken a decidedly negative turn. When the discussion devolves into attacks on play style and personality there is little critical information to be gleaned from the thread. Thanks to all that participated.