A frank discussion about rares in UO

I want to start by saying I know that this is a sensitive topic and there is 99.9% chance I will pee in someone’s Post Toasties.  Too Bad. Part of having a frank and opening discussion means you have to be willing to hear out all points of view.  That includes  the ones you do not agree with or like. 

Okay I think ALL previous event Items should be available for a limited time in the UO Store. For example all of this month items would be available for the month of April. During the holidays the previous holiday items would be available. The same for all of the other holidays.  Also for items like the stuffys, snowfluff plants, and amaryllises your color would be random so you’d have a chance at a the rare colors. 

The reason I came up with this idea is that I am sick of 1% of the player population runs and controls the game.  We ALL pay the same subs and deserve to be treated equally. It chaps my butt everytime the Devs go to introduce anything new this group of players screams “MY RARES! MY RARES!”  I found it egregious that a member of this group claimed to be betrayed by Mesanna and the EMs. Why? Because they dared reuse a rare she owned.  I say SO WHAT?!?!  Its the devs game to run and they can hand out whatever they please.   

Rares have done nothing to help UO and everything to hurt it from RMT transactions to the great Clops debacle.  I think its time to level the playing field. 

I’m done and I will don my NASCAR regulation fire suit and prepare for an imminent flaming. 

gimme gimme gimme

just stand near the bay in Brit so I can push you in to put you out...

Rares have been a part of UO since day one. Rares collection has always been an "at your own risk" type of an affair. There have been dozens of times when valuable server births and EM items have been devalued by a craftable or otherwise item. If rares were the problem with this game, it would have ended a long time ago.

I am not part of any 1%, I probably don't even fall under the 50% when it comes to dabbling in rares. I get a slow and steady collection from attending maybe 1 idoc a month, and going to EM events, when I am forcefully dragged to them by a friend or guild member maybe once every 4 months. 

Now with all that said, I think requesting or demanding that all rares ever be available for a limited time is just silly. Sure, there are many rares I would like to get my hands on, but I also know and appreciate the time and effort people have put into obtaining those rares. I feel like your entire idea is geared around pure greed as well as hurting an entire playstyle, for no reason other than your frustration. There are people waiting in line to exploit every playstyle, and try to use it for personal gain. That does not mean that every person who enjoys that playstyle should be attacked and punished. What you are proposing is rather unnecessary and cruel if you ask me.

Luc_of_Legends said:

(...) 
I found it egregious that a member of this group claimed to be betrayed by Mesanna and the EMs. Why? Because they dared reuse a rare she owned.  I say SO WHAT?!?!  Its the devs game to run and they can hand out whatever they please. 
(...)

Hi Luc, I'm your fa... no, sorry, wrong franchise... I mean: I'm alway open to a frank (and polite) discussion, and ALWAYS wear fireproof undies before posting in a forum, so here are my 2 PPs. 🙂
If you are referring to this thread of mine, IMO you missed the points. The points of it are (or, better, have become during the discussion, after the first emotive posts of mine: I was REALLY pis... ehm irked to have been swindled by the original seller's Vendor... ): Grandfathering, BankBox security and Continuity.
To sum it up: if I respect the TOS rules of the game, I believe that it is reasonable for me to expect consistency. If today I have (and expecially in my BB!) an item, i believe it is reasonable to expect that tomorrow it will be that same item, Rare or Mundane that it is.
We have had many examples of retroconning in UO during the years. An example of, IMO, GOOD retroconning is the way in which Placed Houses has been handled: the old Huoses stayed in place even if the Placement Rules changed, but if you tear down or try to resize an House placed with Grandfatherd Placement Rules you very probably cannot place it in the same place where the old one were. A BAD example, always IMO, of retroconning is the way in which House Deeds was handled: ex abrupto massively transmutated in HPT. And the list of either good or bad retrocon examples goes on and on.
About the point of "Its the devs game to run and they can hand out whatever they please."... well, legally speaking obviously yes. But a game a without paying players is moot. And, IMO, for a S.B. kind of game as UO is, being without consistency ---> loosing said kind of players.
Clearly I don't have hard data to support it, but I have the strong suspicion that, beside the ones lost by "natural" "age attrition" (people getting... *GASP*.... a life outside UO - Shame on them!!! - or starting play OTHER GAMES - Wrong for them!!! 😂 ) some of the more massive hemorrhages of Players from UO coincided with the most badly mishandled massive retroconning, of Items and/or of Skills functions.
Personally I find (for now, at least... ) WAY over my playstyle collecting Rares of the kind of "The Wet Sand of the Used Bedding of the Kitty of Blackthorn", but, hey, "tastes are tastes", "never say never agian", und so weiter. And if a day I will start to fill my House(s) lock points with used cat bedding, I find resonable to be sure to be able to smell the same acrid aroma any darn time I came back at the aforementioned House(s).
This said, what I think of the NEGATIVE influence on the game of the "Inter-Shards-Trade-Oligarchy" (I.S.T.O.) that control most ot the Rares market (and, unfortunately, non only of those) you can read it in almost all my posts on this Forum, if you have nothing better to do. But I think that re-offering the SAME Rares of an Event for sale in the Official UO Shop, is not so good an idea, and that, in the case, maybe one better way could be the one they used for the [REPLICA OF] Items.
Cheers
Ivenor

I really do not understand the suggestions that will drive off the players that have over a decade of paid subscriptions. Getting ahead in this game is extraordinary EASY today, more so than anytime in the past. 

If you want to buy some rare items, do so. 

People always say, "It would have ended a long time ago if not for... Rares, RMT, PVP Attitude, etc.", and I'd say at this point, yes it would be true.  But if they had slapped down on it early, the people that left the game because of those things could still be here and people that still play the game need to admit to themselves that it's not just one thing they stay for.

I don't have an issue with rares that have no use.  I do have an issue with the way the rares drop.  More should be done to make them as available as reasonable for participants.  Of course the guy that just shows up in the last 10 minutes shouldn't get one, but the newbie that has struggled the whole time should get one.

I don't agree they should be put on the store, because, like you said, we already pay for the sub.  I also don't want them to balance the amount of drops for monetary reasons.

I see where you are coming from, but rares should stay rare, its not the same people who get EM items but its the same people who buy them off those who are lucky enough to get a drop.

My advice - Keep going to events and if you are lucky enough to get a drop, don't sell it on.

Simples. 

See? That's the disagreement.  We don't disagree that rares exist and are traded.  It's that you want rares to be so limited everyone there doesn't get it.  

Luc, and I, want everyone there and participating to get it.  Not just doing damage.  Everyone pays the sub.  The way the drops work now favor pigeon holing players into a template that does a lot of damage and removes the liberty that comes with a skill system like this game has.

there are too many rares, event items already. wish it would only have one to 3 items drop. then it would really mean something. if u want event items, do events or buy. the multi account use has really hurt the game. those mutli account users have your event items u would of received.

I can't really say I support your idea of making all previous event items available. It just doesn't seem realistic. By doing that, you alienate a lot of people who have invested a lot of time and money into their collections. And it's indiscriminate. What about those folks who don't multibox, don't use RMT, but have still invested the time and gold in game using completely legitimate means to establish an event item collection? They're unjustly affected by your proposal.

Now, some may make the argument that those involved in RMT would "get would they deserve", or something like that. I see this as a moot point, however, because the result is the same either way: a lot of closed accounts, which in my opinion, wouldn't be very good for the game's future.

I will say though, I wouldn't mind seeing access to more graphics made available through in-game means. For example, it'd be nice to be able to use a scaffold as decoration in my house without paying 5 plat or whatever ridiculous price one would cost. I guess this would apply more to server births though, so it may not be on track with your point.

My thoughts come from looking at FTP style. After all UO is going in that direction to a point with endless journeys. Many if not most FTP games have rares for sale for a limited time. 

Plants VS Zombie...Limited Pinatas, Plants, etc.
Disney's Magic Kingdom - limited characters, buildings.

I could go on forever. The plus side of this argument is more revenue to make the game better for the players. 

It does not have to be EVERY rare but starting say in 3-6 month time. Rare from event happening and some select rares from past. 

Also this could be a used as a check and balance system to police EM System. After all if a rare shows up in game and  there was not one set to be sold in the store. The Dev team would be mad aware earlier that there is possibly a rogue EM. Yes this not perfect and someone could find a way around this system but this just one possible scenario.

Here is example of possible scenario:

1. Event:: Invasion of Luna  
   
2. Reward: Black/Brown Angel statue saying "I survived the burning and looting of Luna"
3. Shard : Origin
   

Mesanna can cross reference the submitted store rare to event story submissions for that shard. Yes, a rogue EM will not submit rare to go into store. But a small search could be done using this as a database or spreadsheet. 

Yes makes more work for her and the dev team but this might prevent past events from happening again.

Again just another possible positive.

(about to get cynical) After all most if not all rares get duped at some point. Why not let BS reap the benefit.

Feigr said:

See? That's the disagreement.  We don't disagree that rares exist and are traded.  It's that you want rares to be so limited everyone there doesn't get it.  

Luc, and I, want everyone there and participating to get it.  Not just doing damage.  Everyone pays the sub.  The way the drops work now favor pigeon holing players into a template that does a lot of damage and removes the liberty that comes with a skill system like this game has.

every game has the best few templates for specific encounters.  thats just part of gaming.  Yes, events have a few templates that just dont work.  mostly melee templates (or crafter types).  Thats just part of the event.  If we only had 1 character slot, i would agree that events should be doable on every type of characters, but im fine with having characters specifically designed to be good at events since we can have up to 7 characters on every shard.

Personally, im the opposite side of the spectrum.  i value a challenging encounter, that requires a well thought out and specifically designed template and gearing for best chances of success.  That was mostly done away with in favor of the random points system, where everyone gets an item if you meet the lowest threshold.  Which also led to the situation we have now, people abusing that system using third party programs to have the best chances of multiple drops.  Which also makes it harder for the average, 1 account player to get a drop.  Wheras the old merit-based system wasnt abused, many casual players just werent good at it.  The aswer isnt to totally kill the idea of rares, but to make a system that works.  the current system is a nice balance between merit and charity IF we dont have complications caused by abuse of the system. 

Plus, we also had no public outlet for oppostion of abuse of the system for years.  Posts and players calling out those abusing the system on stratics were given warnings or banned from that forum.  The personal connections of the some of the staff, to the largest abusers didnt help that issue. 

Now, at least we can talk about those issues in a non-biased environment.  and Mesanna seems to have agreed that its time to clean up some of the consequences / abuses of the random drop system. (the worst offenders using 10 to 20 automated accounts)  Hopefully in the coming months we'll see a bit of an improvement, but yes, you will still have to figure out the best way to succeed in an event scenerio.  That character may be different than your favorite everyday character, but like i said thats just part of gaming.

In life, i wouldnt want a "participation trophy"  it would hold no meaning to me.  a large part of rares collecting, in UO and in real life is wanting to own something unusual, special, that very few other people have. 

UO specially doesnt have the graphics, complicated pve encounters, or constant updates that other games do.

what we do have are systems that no other games have.  Mostly housing, and the vast amount of collectable items.

Alienating that core of the playerbase would probably do more financial harm in the long run than any short-term gains from actual rares sold off the store.  As it is now, its still possible to obtain EM drops via buying enough store items to exchange for the gold needed.  Yes, the cost would be high.  but a 1billion gold item probably wouldnt be cheap off the store either if the devs were taking that route to maximize profits.

If rares were available for purchase from the store....wouldn't that defeat the purpose of being called "rare"? <span></span>

We do not have 7 character slots available. You and I have paid for 7 character slots.  There are going to be new players or returning players.  The game currently does cater to people that have tamers and sampires and mystics... Vets would do well to get some perspective that not everyone has multiple accounts or all the upgrades or a full set of skills leveled on soulstones and empty characters.

Think of it less as a participation trophy and more as a "I paid to experience the game and deserve all content I participate in."  Some would argue RNG is in all games, but I'd point out that there are multiple attempts available at those items, unlike EM events.

Lady_Storm said:

just stand near the bay in Brit so I can push you in to put you out...

Be sure to avoid all sea anchors toss at you when you are in the water @Fat

Feigr said:

We do not have 7 character slots available. You and I have paid for 7 character slots.  There are going to be new players or returning players.  The game currently does cater to people that have tamers and sampires and mystics... Vets would do well to get some perspective that not everyone has multiple accounts or all the upgrades or a full set of skills leveled on soulstones and empty characters.

1. Change your templates up, my archer used to be a paladin
2. Stygian Abyss came out over 8 years ago and is now(or shortly be) available to everyone. How do you not have a mystic by now?
3. I run one account at events and get EM drops, typically with a low end suit and less than GM magery. Sounds like a PEBKAC error on your end. 

 Feigr said:

Think of it less as a participation trophy and more as a "I paid to experience the game and deserve all content I participate in."  Some would argue RNG is in all games, but I'd point out that there are multiple attempts available at those items, unlike EM events.

What your are asking for IS a participation trophy.  Honestly I would be ok with more vending machine items followed by 3-5 rare drops from the event. 

How entitled do you have to be to say that you Deserve to win at everything you do?

Because I PAID for it, what part aren't you understanding? I'm paying for content, I'm not getting content.  You're trying to insult me with real life issues, but this is a video game product we pay for and it's not some competitive sport.

UO has so many skills.  The beauty of UO was the skill system.  If you pigeon people into those skill templates it removes the magic of UO.  If I wanted to go play a Barbarian, I'd just play Diablo.

I guess there is no way for me to argue against" I deserve to win, gimme gimme gimme"

Not everyone can win, somebody has to lose, that is life. 

Not if you're unwilling to listen, no.

If I pay for content, I may not deserve to get it on the first try, but I do deserve the opportunity to get it.

You do have the opportunity. Improve your play style and keep trying. 

You keep attacking me to make your point, that is? I still don't get it.  I've stated my point without attacking you, but to make your own unstated point you keep attacking how I play.

You're contribution to the thread is that you think making rares more available is entitlement.  I get it, I listened.  I don't agree.

My contribution is that if I pay for a game, I deserve the opportunity at the content in the game.  I also feel that RNG for that content, if it's there, needs to have more than one opportunity at it.

My rebuttal for your argument that false entitlement is bad is that I agree with you.  Entitlement to content you pay for is not bad.  If you pay for something, you're entitled to it.

I also feel that in a sandbox game like UO, the content should be based on more than just damage and healing.  It should be about participation.

Feigr said:

My contribution is that if I pay for a game, I deserve the opportunity at the content in the game.  I also feel that RNG for that content, if it's there, needs to have more than one opportunity at it....

Entitlement to content you pay for is not bad.  If you pay for something, you're entitled to it.

You pay for access to the game to attend the event, you do not pay a subscription for a drop.
 
At no point have I witnessed any mention on any UO packaging or promotional material that explicitly or implies that you are even able to get a rare item from live events. It is an unadvertised feature, therefor you are not entitled to anything. 

Feigr said:

I also feel that in a sandbox game like UO, the content should be based on more than just damage and healing.  It should be about participation.

Again back to participation trophies. The event it self is content, I go to them with my crew from my Vent server, I contribute and enjoy myself. If I get a drop, cool. If I don`t, oh well. 
comment was butchered let me try that again...

Feigr said:

You keep attacking me to make your point, that is?

From the outside it appears you desire the world adapt for a level of players( that you belong to) for your own advantage. People make up a variety of characters specifically for certain bosses and events. Not every play style is as profitable and competitive as others. Not every criticism is a personal attack. 

When I want or need something, I have to look at the situation to see what I need to get that something. Sitting there complaining about not being handed that item leaves me with nothing other than wishes. 

Luc_of_Legends said:

The reason I came up with this idea is that I am sick of 1% of the player population runs and controls the game.  We ALL pay the same subs and deserve to be treated equally.
.....................

I found it egregious that a member of this group claimed to be betrayed by Mesanna and the EMs. Why? Because they dared reuse a rare she owned.

How do rare collectors run the game and also get betrayed by the developers? They have the same amount of influence that anyone who participates in the community can. It only seems like they have more because they are usually more united.

I don't even understand the complaints about favoritism with rares in UO today. They mostly come from EM events which have been going on for 15 years now. What is different today from 10 years ago? Anyone can go to an event and get a drop. It is easier than getting a drop in Doom Gauntlet or a good Power Scroll from a champion.

JCtheBuilder said:

Luc_of_Legends said:

The reason I came up with this idea is that I am sick of 1% of the player population runs and controls the game.  We ALL pay the same subs and deserve to be treated equally.
.....................

I found it egregious that a member of this group claimed to be betrayed by Mesanna and the EMs. Why? Because they dared reuse a rare she owned.

How do rare collectors run the game and also get betrayed by the developers? They have the same amount of influence that anyone who participates in the community can. It only seems like they have more because they are usually more united.

I don't even understand the complaints about favoritism with rares in UO today. They mostly come from EM events which have been going on for 15 years now. What is different today from 10 years ago? Anyone can go to an event and get a drop. It is easier than getting a drop in Doom Gauntlet or a good Power Scroll from a champion.

Yes and No.  It gets a little tiring that you see the same people spaming after the event or the same people in the trade forums selling the event items from multiple shards every time.

Bilbo said:

Yes and No.  It gets a little tiring that you see the same people spaming after the event or the same people in the trade forums selling the event items from multiple shards every time.

I had a goal in 2016 of collecting every EM event item on my shard from that year. This was after not playing for a long time, having outdated equipment and a non-optimal template for fighting EM boss monsters. I just cast energy bolt and then Word of Death 2 maybe 3 times.

I ended up getting a drop at 3 out of the first 4 events I went to (I didn't go after that, so much for being committed =p ). At one event with multiple bosses I got 2 drops. This was by myself, no multu-boxing. Look, my character even has wrestling! https://uo.com/myuo-2/#/char_info/v3rrqiZuKTQ

By the way, I play on Atlantic. Arguably the most competitive shard for event items. So if I could do it in such an unprepared way, surely anyone who tries hard could do it. It is not a surprise that the people who put in the most effort get the most rewards.

I agree with JC. I came back in August of last year and attended.. hmm. Can't remember which three Bennu events. Regardless, in three consecutive events I received four drops. The pink lantern, two goblin toilets, and the leviathan fishing rob. This is on weaver/tamer with a luck suit after not playing for seven years (so a seven year old luck suit).

Maybe different templates would help some people?

I think where the game is currently at with such low population they could spend the money more wisely.  What I mean by that is pay some people to more permanent content to the game instead of having events.  Revitalize the game before having events again.  I don't do any events cause what they hand it is just long named deco items that are completely useless other then making a little gold if sold.  Id rather something I can equip and make my gaming experience better.  I think events are a wasted resource in todays UO where peoples time could be spent updating things like the harrower and ML bosses and Doom and other things that would encourage more people to play.