2 things that should be considered for balance updates in the near future

These in my mind are 2 really important issue's that should be addressed in the near future to promote balanced / competitive gameplay in UO going forward.

1. The player skill cap should go up by 80 points to 800.And skill increase items should allow players to exceed the new skill cap by a maximum of 20 points for a total of 820 skill points. The way it is now gives the rich a huge advantage over any potentially new or returning player that cannot afford to optimize their suits the same way.

2. Trade Deals need to be made accessible to murderers. If you insist on 'punishing' them for being red then put a trade deal stone in the middle of each felucca dungeon and make it so if you use the felucca stones for a trade deal every time you die you get a 10 minute statloss while the trade deal is active.

This game really needs to start providing a competitive environment for it's players. There is no reason why being rich should get you close to 100 extra skill points to use over any other player simply because they can afford it and someone else cannot.

PureLife said:

These in my mind are 2 really important issue's that should be addressed in the near future to promote balanced / competitive gameplay in UO going forward.

1. The player skill cap should go up by 80 points to 800.And skill increase items should allow players to exceed the new skill cap by a maximum of 20 points for a total of 820 skill points. The way it is now gives the rich a huge advantage over any potentially new or returning player that cannot afford to optimize their suits the same way.

2. Trade Deals need to be made accessible to murderers. If you insist on 'punishing' them for being red then put a trade deal stone in the middle of each felucca dungeon and make it so if you use the felucca stones for a trade deal every time you die you get a 10 minute statloss while the trade deal is active.

This game really needs to start providing a competitive environment for it's players. There is no reason why being rich should get you close to 100 extra skill points to use over any other player simply because they can afford it and someone else cannot.

Thanks for the feedback! 

As far as the trade deals for reds, one of my favorite quotes from a former dev (Wilki) is, 

"Being red doesn’t mean you’re on the “red team”. It means that you’re a murderer, an outcast from society, someone whose past deeds are so horrible that the good, law-abiding citizens of Britannia feel obligated to oppose you at every step."

That being said I do see where you are coming from, and this has come up at several meet & greets.  We've talked about how to provide trade-deal-esque type bonuses for those who prefer a PvP centric playstyle as a result.  If anything something like this would find itself in VvV as a means to encourage competition and participation, as well appeal to different styles of PvP.

As far as raising the skill cap, we addressed this when talking about the justification for adding skill masteries over "just" raising the skill cap to 800 or introducing 120+ power scrolls.  You can check out the dev diary from 2015 here.

Is a video 2 years ago really addressing the same thing though? I mean I literally can have over 100 extra skill points on 3 items, or even 2 if im willing to spend enough. This gives me a huge advantage vs a player with less access to gold. We've had multiple guildmates that have returned in the last month, many who without us being able to help them get equipped with high end gear, all have stated they'd never have stayed to play if not for the help. They are coming back with once superior suits, that are now completely unusable. Not to mention, the game had more emphasis on a balanced blue vs red back when they all played. One of our friends came back with literally 1 blue (his crafter). On smaller servers, it takes literally a month of steady VVV alter capturing to turn 1 character blue. I like the idea of the town buff system, but keep in mind that back when PVP was more steady across all servers, Murderers also helped defend and help towns with factions. They werent punished for that then, but they are paying for it now. Go look at Atlantic, nobody's red. If they are, its for a few hours before they go blue due to easily obtainable Pardons. The balance has been upset. There must be evil, for there to be good. Help balance things. That's what needs to happen. Balance in the pvp world. Make it more possible for players to come back and compete. Not have to spend 6 months to get a character ready to do the roof, to spend another multiple months to fit a character with gear. (For those that are casual players like myself, we dont have all the time in the world to build characters and grind for hours and hours).

I'm not talking about character development in regards to raising the skill cap. My character has 125 skill points built into his suit 120 of which I use this gives me a significant advantage from items alone over other players that do not have the same amount of gold I do to invest into their equipment. There is no reason why items should allow me to have an entire extra legendary skill over any other player. By raising the skill cap to 800 and capping modified skill at 820 you put the game back on a level playing field. Any template currently played will still be playable but now accessible to everyone instead of just the rich. Your focus should be providing players of any skill level an opportunity to play the game on a level playing field.

 

Maybe better to just bring the item cap down to a reasonable place.  720 real / 780 modified?  60 skill points is pretty accessible to most players via imbuing or attainable through one uber jewelry piece.

Point 1.

It's not just the Rich who have this advantage - EC players do also - they carry 2-3 suits and different skillpoint suits, ie. different sets of jewels to switch instantly when required.

I still don't believe your suggestion would help so much though.

Putting a hard skill cap in at 820, would hurt my PvM Rogue - he has 926 skill-points, all in fun rogue abilities, no combat ability at all.

His whole build has been about skill-points, LRC, and nothing else.

Stealth	120
Ninjitsu	120
Stealing	120
Detect Hidden	100
Hiding	100
Lockpicking	100
Remove Trap	100
Snooping	100
Magery	66
	926

Point 2.

Most reds who rely on town buffs have gimped their characters or their suits, maybe they should learn not to do this.

"Being red doesn’t mean you’re on the “red team”. It means that you’re a murderer, an outcast from society, someone whose past deeds are so horrible that the good, law-abiding citizens of Britannia feel obligated to oppose you at every step."

As far as raising the skill cap, we addressed this when talking about the justification for adding skill masteries over "just" raising the skill cap to 800 or introducing 120+ power scrolls.  You can check out the dev diary from 2015 here.

  BAM!

Taking into account subjective wish lists, most of the vets feel that PVP is pretty balanced atm.  Except for the difference in speed compared to CC vs EC.

But the more that is talked about, the more the conversation may get pushed to a one-world-client-system. 

Who is this "most of the vets" crowd that think its balanced?  If its balanced why is there no pure melee templates being played at all?  Why is taming non-existent?  Why is either poisoning or parry on just about every template?  Why is splintering utilized in every template for the most part?  Why is it that the same crowd of only like 50-60 pvpers play on every shard and no new pvpers coming out?  Why is there this many questions to answer if its balanced?

SwordofExcalibur said:

Taking into account subjective wish lists, most of the **** vets **** feel that PVP is pretty balanced atm.  Except for the difference in speed compared to CC vs EC.

The keyword is 'vets' and I agree PvP is in a pretty good spot right now and I'm not suggesting anything that will have any impact on veteran players. The fact is a person with 800+ skill points has a significant advantage over a player with 720 skill points. It's not a disputable fact.

Hopefully soon people will realize that there is a problem and solve it. There is no reason why any player should have access to 100+ skill points more then anyone else raising the overall skillcap to 800 and capping skill increases at 820 is a perfectly reasonable solution. But I am open to being enlightened on why items should allow already better players an additional skillpoint advantage over anyone wanting to step into PvP for the first time.

Cookie said:

His whole build has been about skill-points, LRC, and nothing else.

Stealth	120
Ninjitsu	120
Stealing	120
Detect Hidden	100
Hiding	100
Lockpicking	100
Remove Trap	100
Snooping	100
Magery	66
	926

The game can't be balanced around some dude's desire to have an entirely useless character simply because it has all the rogue related skills. Crafters can't fit all their skills on one template without soulstones so why should your character?

Merus said:

Maybe better to just bring the item cap down to a reasonable place.  720 real / 780 modified?  60 skill points is pretty accessible to most players via imbuing or attainable through one uber jewelry piece.

Because players already are playing with 800+ skill points they would be upset to go back down. 800 real / 820 modified is fair for everyone.

PureLife said:

Cookie said:

His whole build has been about skill-points, LRC, and nothing else.

Stealth	120
Ninjitsu	120
Stealing	120
Detect Hidden	100
Hiding	100
Lockpicking	100
Remove Trap	100
Snooping	100
Magery	66
	926

The game can't be balanced around some dude's desire to have an entirely useless character simply because it has all the rogue related skills. Crafters can't fit all their skills on one template without soulstones so why should your character?

Merus said:

Maybe better to just bring the item cap down to a reasonable place.  720 real / 780 modified?  60 skill points is pretty accessible to most players via imbuing or attainable through one uber jewelry piece.

Because players already are playing with 800+ skill points they would be upset to go back down. 800 real / 820 modified is fair for everyone.

Just because something has become possible because of the insane power creep doesn't mean it should remain.  I would say that in too many cases, templates with that many skill points create balance issues.  I agree with Kyronix that the answer is not to bring everyone up to that level.  Therefore, to restore balance, the item cap would need to be placed at something lower than it is today.

I agree hard cap at 720 

The_Higgs_1 said:

Who is this "most of the vets" crowd that think its balanced?  If its balanced why is there no pure melee templates being played at all?  Why is taming non-existent?  Why is either poisoning or parry on just about every template?  Why is splintering utilized in every template for the most part?  Why is it that the same crowd of only like 50-60 pvpers play on every shard and no new pvpers coming out?  Why is there this many questions to answer if its balanced?

Good list. I'd also add why are there no pure mages also, as well as pure melee. I'd also ask why is dismount so dominant.

All they did with the PvP Parry/Archer changes, were nerf the long range dexxers, improve the short range dexxers, and weaken mages ability to defend themselves even more against the short range dexxers by nerfing parry - and turn everything into a dexxer/mage hybrid, or deathstrike poison dexxer or parry mage to attempt to survive that onslaught.

PureLife said:

The game can't be balanced around some dude's desire to have an entirely useless character simply because it has all the rogue related skills. Crafters can't fit all their skills on one template without soulstones so why should your character?

The character has optimised one set of properties, and sacrificed others, that's how the system works. It has done this legitimately. Usually with adding in skillpoints - other characters also sacrifice stuff in order to gain skillpoints.

You talk about the uber rich being able to get huge suits, or those spending RL money - the issue may not be them, it may be that the items are available in the first place, or that EC allows instant switching of multiple skillsuits to allow a dexxer to become a mage instantly, then back again. So I don't think fixing the caps is the answer, I think there are issues behind that causing it, which won't go away.

Regarding my entirely useless character, it is one of my favourites. A list of content for my useless character includes;

• Dungeon chests including Kotl City and Sunken Ararat hidden chests
• Stealing from monsters for special items
• Stealing from players
• VvV Sigils
• City stealing of Refinement washes, cures, scours, varnishes
• Dungeon stealables including Bedlam, Doom, Stygian Abyss, Tokuno and Wrong
• General snooping, spying and scouting in Felucca
• Collecting gold drops from Champ Spawns
• Khaldun Puzzle Chests
• Etc.

Just because it's a different playstyle, it isn't useless by a long way. Remove Trap, is one of the most fun skills ingame. My personal wishlist for this character would include, buffing chest loot, and fixing Remove Trap skill so it doesn't unhide on successes - also when looting you should not unhide.

PureLife said:

SwordofExcalibur said:

Taking into account subjective wish lists, most of the **** vets **** feel that PVP is pretty balanced atm.  Except for the difference in speed compared to CC vs EC.

The keyword is 'vets' and I agree PvP is in a pretty good spot right now and I'm not suggesting anything that will have any impact on veteran players. The fact is a person with 800+ skill points has a significant advantage over a player with 720 skill points. It's not a disputable fact.

Hopefully soon people will realize that there is a problem and solve it. There is no reason why any player should have access to 100+ skill points more then anyone else raising the overall skillcap to 800 and capping skill increases at 820 is a perfectly reasonable solution. But I am open to being enlightened on why items should allow already better players an additional skillpoint advantage over anyone wanting to step into PvP for the first time.

Why are you promoting the concept that new players should be able to step into PVP and be on par with very seasoned and well established players?

Is it because of an inability with the game to attract new players into the PVP base?  I can understand why that would be frustrating.  Personally, I've tried to get into PVP since August last year and its pretty rough.  Initially it turned me off, but then I realized, if I want to get into THIS game's PVP, I'm just going to have to dedicate the time to learn the ropes.  And that, in itself, is pretty exciting and fun; having to learn the system and compete.  So currently, I'm gathering info and learning the templates.  -shrug-  If I went to WOW, if I went to any other 10+ year old game, I would experience similar issues.  

On the other hand, arguments ask: why can't the new players learn the ropes and learn to gather a suit and weapons and come up to par with seasoned players (vets) rather than just hand power creep to young rookies?

If a person feels they cannot compete in the current PVP climate, have they addressed other issues?  Some use third party programs to gain an advantage regular players do not.  Get into PVP as a new person and this will frustrate you to no end.

Next, some players are so adept at their hand-eye-coordination and muscle memory with PVP, they are just simply good; because they have played 10+ years.  Some players are intimately aware of the nuances of all current templates.  In this era, you're basically playing with people who have lots of years of experience.  So, I don't see how giving new players a huge boost of power in the form of limiting vets powers is going to make things more effective anyway.  Vets have experience.  It's just a fact.  -shrug-  It sounds like a handicap wants to be imposed.  That's a poor idea I think.  But let's be realistic here:  vets, who love CC (classic client) already have a handicap imposed.  CC is slower than EC (enhanced client), so players in EC have an advantage of running away and cutting corners that CC players do not.  That is a current gripe from CC players.  So, take that into consideration.

I don't find an issue with skill points on items.  

Besides, those same skill points help you in PVM to be able to accomplish goals outside of PVP.  Your suggestion would affect another group of players and that's an imbalance itself.  You can't try to balance PVP and then take away the effectiveness of skill points from PVM players to solve your supposed dilemma.

Power creep is a loose term anyway.  In this MMO, a lot of players like to solo.  Given that many bosses were built around team-play and the fact the player base is smaller now, team-play is not really viable for all players.  I'm glad there was some significant change to power to allow people to enjoy boss hunting/farming now without recruiting a team.  Even if 4 players gather for something like Melisande, they do tear her apart pretty quickly.  Exodus, one of the harder ones, can be handled with about 3-4 players these days.  I remember the days when it took an army to take some things down and it was an EVENT.  Does that mean power creep is a problem for 2+ groups of players?  Maybe.  But who are the majority of players playing in this era?  I'll wager its solo play.  However, if the player base grows and is solid, I'll also wager adjustments will be made.

Further, every era of UO has had complaints about what template dominates another and the change of Devs has had to solve that issue back and forth.  If players who are well seasoned and know the ins-and-outs of pvp say that, atm, the game is balanced, one ought to give that idea a fair shake.  You can follow the history of arguments at similar forums dedicated to UO through the player base.

In the end, its all interesting questions and concerns brought forth to keep the conversation going.  So that's good.

Actually WOW has an automatic balance on the majority of the PVP available outside of random world encounters. Battlegrounds and Arenas have both been made very accessable to newer players within the level range. So, sorry to burst your bubble there. Skill should trump items. Period. There are plenty of players, who are lesser in skill who can kill significantly better players with lesser gear. We tested this thoroughly with one of our members who would lose the majority of the fights with his initial gear, but then proceeded to destroy everyone once we got him a top tier pvp suit. 

SwordofExcalibur said

Why are you promoting the concept that new players should be able to step into PVP and be on par with very seasoned and well established players?

Is it because of an inability with the game to attract new players into the PVP base?  I can understand why that would be frustrating.  Personally, I've tried to get into PVP since August last year and its pretty rough.  Initially it turned me off, but then I realized, if I want to get into THIS game's PVP, I'm just going to have to dedicate the time to learn the ropes.  And that, in itself, is pretty exciting and fun; having to learn the system and compete.  So currently, I'm gathering info and learning the templates.  -shrug-  If I went to WOW, if I went to any other 10+ year old game, I would experience similar issues. 

I am not promoting the concept that new players should be 'on par' with veteran players. I am promoting the concept that players should not be at 100+ skill point disadvantage against any other player.

new or returning players already have enough obstacles to overcome to get on par with vet's like (knowledge of game mechanics, player skill, powerscrolls, equipment, 3rd party programs) putting any player at a 100 skill point disadvantage is not needed. The only reason anyone can argue against changing the total skill cap is because they want to remain overpowered compared to the rest of the competition. That's flawed game design but I am still open to being enlightened on why the game should not have proper balance. It's been probably the biggest reason for the decline of PvP since Age of Shadows that items have trumped player skill in PvP and right now you cannot argue that statement as players have literally 100 skill points more to use then the average player. It's no wonder PvP in this game is dead and will continue to be dead even after Endless Journey. Players cannot accept critical balance updates that are needed for the overall benefit of the game.

Cookie said:

Regarding my entirely useless character, it is one of my favourites. A list of content for my useless character includes;

• Dungeon chests including Kotl City and Sunken Ararat hidden chests
• Stealing from monsters for special items
• Stealing from players
• VvV Sigils
• City stealing of Refinement washes, cures, scours, varnishes
• Dungeon stealables including Bedlam, Doom, Stygian Abyss, Tokuno and Wrong
• General snooping, spying and scouting in Felucca
• Collecting gold drops from Champ Spawns
• Khaldun Puzzle Chests
• Etc.

Just because it's a different playstyle, it isn't useless by a long way. Remove Trap, is one of the most fun skills ingame. My personal wishlist for this character would include, buffing chest loot, and fixing Remove Trap skill so it doesn't unhide on successes - also when looting you should not unhide.

None of those require all your skills to be on the template at one time. And over half the stuff you listed is not even content your just randomly listing junk you don't even do to make it sound like your character has a purpose.

But go ahead and keep whining about the enhanced client instead of addressing the real issue which is in fact skill point increase items in this case. You seem to have a personal agenda against the Enhanced Client and will try and maneuver any topic into an argument against it.  But at least the enhanced client is readily accessible to any player which skill point items are not.

It's a rogue, he plays like a rogue. I have fun playing the content I listed, and he is designed for it.

Why are you trying to dictate what makes a good, purposeful character or not? Define a character that has purpose in your eyes?

Remember, I am both a pvper and pvmer, so I see issues from both points of view.

I will keep whining about EC as it is the root cause of half of UO's inbalances - and directly even affects the issue you chose to raise here - amounts of skillpoints a character can use. Many PvPers I know directly, who use EC, use 2-3 suits, and swap out parts to instantly give themselves additional skills for whichever occasion arises they need it for. Completely relevant to the topic you chose to raise?

The other half, is Trammel, and because of it, the inability to deal with scripting, and cheating, which destroys the entire economy. They get everything for nothing, and far more in fact, than the risk taking facet of the game.

So ultimately, I'm trying to improve the entire game, not just a little portion.

You can just keep on whining about something irrelevant - Deal. 🙂

Maybe my solution for you, and all your new pvpers, is to use EC, where they can instantly use as many skills as they want for free, then you and all of them can be happy, and I can continue whining about the imbalance this creates. But it would fix your issue with skill-points, and make adjusting skill-caps unnecessary.

Cookie said:

It's a rogue, he plays like a rogue. I have fun playing the content I listed, and he is designed for it.

Why are you trying to dictate what makes a good, purposeful character or not? Define a character that has purpose in your eyes?

Remember, I am both a pvper and pvmer, so I see issues from both points of view.

I will keep whining about EC as it is the root cause of half of UO's inbalances - and directly even affects the issue you chose to raise here - amounts of skillpoints a character can use. Many PvPers I know directly, who use EC, use 2-3 suits, and swap out parts to instantly give themselves additional skills for whichever occasion arises they need it for. Completely relevant to the topic you chose to raise?

The other half, is Trammel, and because of it, the inability to deal with scripting, and cheating, which destroys the entire economy. They get everything for nothing, and far more in fact, than the risk taking facet of the game.

So ultimately, I'm trying to improve the entire game, not just a little portion.

You can just keep on whining about something irrelevant - Deal. 🙂

Maybe my solution for you, and all your new pvpers, is to use EC, where they can instantly use as many skills as they want for free, then you and all of them can be happy, and I can continue whining about the imbalance this creates. But it would fix your issue with skill-points, and make adjusting skill-caps unnecessary.

Did you seriously just say that the EC is the root cause of half of UO's imbalances ? Did you burst out laughing as you typed that nonsense ?

Garth_Grey said:

Did you seriously just say that the EC is the root cause of half of UO's imbalances ? Did you burst out laughing as you typed that nonsense ?

As a pure PvP mage on classic client vs an army of enhanced client dexxers right now, it is the root cause of 90% of my game imbalances - I'm prepared to reduce that to 50% for the rest of you. Compromise, concessions, that's what I'm all about.

Speed differential, additional functionality, instantaneous gear switch abilities - I play an EC dexxer, so I know what I'm talking about, I can still hate it though.

Cookie said:As a pure PvP mage on classic client vs an army of enhanced client dexxers right now, it is the root cause of 90% of my game imbalances - I'm prepared to reduce that to 50% for the rest of you. Compromise, concessions, that's what I'm all about.

Speed differential, additional functionality, instantaneous gear switch abilities - I play an EC dexxer, so I know what I'm talking about, I can still hate it though.

Instant swapping gear could be an easy fix by simply not allowing it when in combat and/or out of combat for a few mins as well.  

I like that you agreed with what I said @Cookie, but parry did not get nerfed for mages.  All that was done was take slight bit off the offensive power of the pure parry mages which was absolutely needed.  Also parry when combined with wrestling and anatomy still needs to be nerfed, its the only template that allows max defense with no penalty whatsoever.   Mages are and will always be the best in PvP, whether they are played pure or with other casting schools or with weapon skills.  Nothing gives you more versatility then magery.  No other casting school in UO can stand alone like magery can and never will unless they add one with a spellbook just as big.  The only difference with mages vs any dexxer template is its much harder to play at a higher level.  Mages use the most macros in game as well as the most skill from the player. 

PureLife said:

SwordofExcalibur said

Why are you promoting the concept that new players should be able to step into PVP and be on par with very seasoned and well established players?

Is it because of an inability with the game to attract new players into the PVP base?  I can understand why that would be frustrating.  Personally, I've tried to get into PVP since August last year and its pretty rough.  Initially it turned me off, but then I realized, if I want to get into THIS game's PVP, I'm just going to have to dedicate the time to learn the ropes.  And that, in itself, is pretty exciting and fun; having to learn the system and compete.  So currently, I'm gathering info and learning the templates.  -shrug-  If I went to WOW, if I went to any other 10+ year old game, I would experience similar issues. 

I am not promoting the concept that new players should be 'on par' with veteran players. I am promoting the concept that players should not be at 100+ skill point disadvantage against any other player.

new or returning players already have enough obstacles to overcome to get on par with vet's like (knowledge of game mechanics, player skill, powerscrolls, equipment, 3rd party programs) putting any player at a 100 skill point disadvantage is not needed. The only reason anyone can argue against changing the total skill cap is because they want to remain overpowered compared to the rest of the competition. That's flawed game design but I am still open to being enlightened on why the game should not have proper balance. It's been probably the biggest reason for the decline of PvP since Age of Shadows that items have trumped player skill in PvP and right now you cannot argue that statement as players have literally 100 skill points more to use then the average player. It's no wonder PvP in this game is dead and will continue to be dead even after Endless Journey. Players cannot accept critical balance updates that are needed for the overall benefit of the game.

1. But you are promoting the concept, whether you want to see it that way or not.  Also, I've already addressed this.  Did you catch that part?  Go back to my original post.  If you have a problem with skill points, counter my point with a valid reason.

2. About new or returning players, plus-skill-points are not a disadvantage.  New players, given enough time, moxy, and ingenuity, can acquire these items.  They are not unobtainable.  Give a valid reason why you think those items are unobtainable, because saying that players have enought to worry about without having to farm or make their own gold is a flawed argument.  MMO's are designed to acquire currency.  Any RPG has this concept as a staple. 

3. About players wanting to remain at the current level of power, I touched on this in my original post.  Solo-players in PVM would be affected if you change the level of power.  You're saying they need a nerf too?  Give valid reasons.  New players being overcome with too many game-mechanics is not a valid reason.  Plenty of players have proven the game mechanics are able to be learned.  Unless, you're looking for players to have quite an awfully easy time getting into game-play without much challenge.  

If you have data that supports the concept that players find Ultima Online too hard to learn and therefore cannot play it, please provide it.  Statistics would be great.

3. "but I am still open to being enlightened on why the game should not have proper balance.." I talked about this previously about in my post.  You're not addressing it.  Are you sure your open-minded?

4. "It's been probably the biggest reason for the decline of PvP since Age of Shadows that items have trumped player skill in PvP and right now you cannot argue that statement as players have literally 100 skill points more to use then the average player."

Oh, you're going to need to provide proof and examples to back up this claim.  You've already been counter-argued on this by a Dev and several other posters.  Atm, this is a poor claim and you lack proof.

 "It's no wonder PvP in this game is dead and will continue to be dead even after Endless Journey. Players cannot accept critical balance updates that are needed for the overall benefit of the game."

Define dead and elaborate this claim.  I see people PVPing on a regular basis and is an alluring reason, along with nostalgia, for people to return to the game and enjoy PVP.  I know this because I read Gen chat daily.  I hear statements about excitement for the game and the desire to return to PVP.  (I know, the trash-talk is endless.)  Forums have a history showing PVP is still very much alive in UO.

I have a speculation from the way you word your posts, you are probably looking to play UO in an era that has since passed.  This is actually a trend with some game players.  Many people seek out information from Dev's about a legacy option for UO.  Devs have said that is not feasible for many reasons.  You might do a search on it.

Thanks! 

my pvm chars have been nerfed to where I cant compete anyone. vvv has made it even more difficult for pvm players so don't really care anymore about pvp. new/returing players will probably get wiped so bad that they will lose interest fast. 

SwordofExcalibur said:

1. But you are promoting the concept, whether you want to see it that way or not.  Also, I've already addressed this.  Did you catch that part?  Go back to my original post.  If you have a problem with skill points, counter my point with a valid reason.

You did not address anything.

2. About new or returning players, plus-skill-points are not a disadvantage.  New players, given enough time, moxy, and ingenuity, can acquire these items.  They are not unobtainable.  Give a valid reason why you think those items are unobtainable, because saying that players have enought to worry about without having to farm or make their own gold is a flawed argument.  MMO's are designed to acquire currency.  Any RPG has this concept as a staple.

Currency has nothing to do with game balance.

3. About players wanting to remain at the current level of power, I touched on this in my original post.  Solo-players in PVM would be affected if you change the level of power.  You're saying they need a nerf too?  Give valid reasons.  New players being overcome with too many game-mechanics is not a valid reason.  Plenty of players have proven the game mechanics are able to be learned.  Unless, you're looking for players to have quite an awfully easy time getting into game-play without much challenge. 

I never once proposed a nerf now your just spinning things to try and make your argument have any merit. I'd like to see one of these solo PvM templates that cannot survive with 820 skill points.

3. "but I am still open to being enlightened on why the game should not have proper balance.." I talked about this previously about in my post.  You're not addressing it.  Are you sure your open-minded?

Once again you never addressed anything.

4. "It's been probably the biggest reason for the decline of PvP since Age of Shadows that items have trumped player skill in PvP and right now you cannot argue that statement as players have literally 100 skill points more to use then the average player."

Oh, you're going to need to provide proof and examples to back up this claim.  You've already been counter-argued on this by a Dev and several other posters.  Atm, this is a poor claim and you lack proof.

Look at every single shard no one PvP's anymore outside of 50 people on Atlantic.

 "It's no wonder PvP in this game is dead and will continue to be dead even after Endless Journey. Players cannot accept critical balance updates that are needed for the overall benefit of the game."

Define dead and elaborate this claim.  I see people PVPing on a regular basis and is an alluring reason, along with nostalgia, for people to return to the game and enjoy PVP.  I know this because I read Gen chat daily.  I hear statements about excitement for the game and the desire to return to PVP.  (I know, the trash-talk is endless.)  Forums have a history showing PVP is still very much alive in UO.

No need to elaborate lol obviously you don't PvP.

I have a speculation from the way you word your posts, you are probably looking to play UO in an era that has since passed.  This is actually a trend with some game players.  Many people seek out information from Dev's about a legacy option for UO.  Devs have said that is not feasible for many reasons.  You might do a search on it.

Thanks!

And on this I am done responding to you. You are simply a troll trying to spin something your way. Not once I have I mentioned or even hinted towards playing 'an era that has passed' but thanks for trying to derail my topic with something that had no place in the conversation to try and spin something into your favor because you have no reasonably argument to support your claims.

Kyronix said:

As far as the trade deals for reds, one of my favorite quotes from a former dev (Wilki) is, 

"Being red doesn’t mean you’re on the “red team”. It means that you’re a murderer, an outcast from society, someone whose past deeds are so horrible that the good, law-abiding citizens of Britannia feel obligated to oppose you at every step."

In other words:

Please spent your money on another game with PvP content. We don't want you here and have no interest in giving all playstyles equal opportunities.

Do you guys want to earn money or teach people life lessons? Thank god the UO NPCs don't know of my life in GTA  😂

I think there is more important things to fix for balance then skill point increase.  Yeah it can give someone an advantage but only if the player skilled enough to play the template.  I still play with no more then +20 skill on any template and I find it very hard to find competitive PvP on any shard.  Things like splintering, permanent dismount with no dachi, corpseskin working with modified skill and wrestling/anatomy with parry need nerfs before skill increase comes into play. 

JollyJade said:

Kyronix said:

As far as the trade deals for reds, one of my favorite quotes from a former dev (Wilki) is, 

"Being red doesn’t mean you’re on the “red team”. It means that you’re a murderer, an outcast from society, someone whose past deeds are so horrible that the good, law-abiding citizens of Britannia feel obligated to oppose you at every step."

In other words:

Please spent your money on another game with PvP content. We don't want you here and have no interest in giving all playstyles equal opportunities.

Do you guys want to earn money or teach people life lessons? Thank god the UO NPCs don't know of my life in GTA  😂

One of the unique things about the Ultima franchise as a whole is the attempt to bring some type of morality into the game world. Richard Garriott worked a long time to design and implement a system that had consequences for behavior. A system where player actions had in-game reactions. These consequences or reactions were purposefully designed to include social reactions by the game world, not just a combat debuff for 10 sec.

Richard Garriott has spoken at length over many years about how many other games have no social fabric or meaning. A player could break into a house, loot from a dresser, or murder someone, and the game would have no long term meaningful reaction. He wanted something different for Ultima, something to not just play a quest, but explore how a player played a quest.

I'm glad some of this has made it into UO. It makes UO unlike "any other game". It would be interesting to see how the development team could expand on this theme and make even stronger, longer term game world reactions to player behavior. That might set UO even more apart from other games on the market.

Arroth_Thaiel said:

One of the unique things about the Ultima franchise as a whole is the attempt to bring some type of morality into the game world. Richard Garriott worked a long time to design and implement a system that had consequences for behavior. A system where player actions had in-game reactions. These consequences or reactions were purposefully designed to include social reactions by the game world, not just a combat debuff for 10 sec.

Richard Garriott has spoken at length over many years about how many other games have no social fabric or meaning. A player could break into a house, loot from a dresser, or murder someone, and the game would have no long term meaningful reaction. He wanted something different for Ultima, something to not just play a quest, but explore how a player played a quest.

I'm glad some of this has made it into UO. It makes UO unlike "any other game". It would be interesting to see how the development team could expand on this theme and make even stronger, longer term game world reactions to player behavior. That might set UO even more apart from other games on the market.

Yea, but again, this is trying to teach people life lessons in morality on a video game. Let's punish players for actually playing what the the game offers *duh*

Also those ideas you cite are from 20 years ago. Keep sticking to it, but it's 2018 and video games have changed. Judging by how little adoption this ideas of Gariott have found in modern games, I guess they were not very popular or thought through.

They could maybe expand on this idea by putting murderers into jail for 10 years. That will teach them.

JollyJade said:

Yea, but again, this is trying to teach people life lessons in morality on a video game. Let's punish players for actually playing what the the game offers *duh*

Also those ideas you cite are from 20 years ago. Keep sticking to it, but it's 2018 and video games have changed. Judging by how little adoption this ideas of Gariott have found in modern games, I guess they were not very popular or thought through.

Explorations of morality have taken place in oral histories, literature, plays, movies, music, television, and every other form of story telling humans have ever used. Why would video games be left out?

I would say some developers, especially those of large scale, complex games, have moved toward morality/social systems over the last 20 years, not away from them. Many more recent games have moral or social conditions as reactions to player behavior. NPC's in Fallout 3 can become hostile if you're caught stealing from their homes. Crackdown will send out squads of agents if you keep blowing up the city (for a limited time). Entire towns will turn against you in Red Dead Redemption (again for a limited time). Elite Dangerous has just introduced a massive overhaul of their crime and punishment system, including Notoriety (UO beat'em by about 20 years!). Star Citizen is spending literal millions to try and figure out how to make a game socially responsive to player behavior.

Garriott may have been the first to really try to implement morality, but once he opened that door, it opened a whole new world for storytelling in videogames. 'Might be a part of the reason why UO is still around and kicking in 2018 while so many of its competitors are gone.  

JollyJade said:

Kyronix said:

As far as the trade deals for reds, one of my favorite quotes from a former dev (Wilki) is, 

"Being red doesn’t mean you’re on the “red team”. It means that you’re a murderer, an outcast from society, someone whose past deeds are so horrible that the good, law-abiding citizens of Britannia feel obligated to oppose you at every step."

In other words:

Please spent your money on another game with PvP content. We don't want you here and have no interest in giving all playstyles equal opportunities.

Do you guys want to earn money or teach people life lessons? Thank god the UO NPCs don't know of my life in GTA  😂

Jade, you do understand that UO is an MMORPG, right? RPG standing for "role playing game". You have the opportunity to be a murderer. Hurray! However, expect consequences.

Rock said:

JollyJade said:

Kyronix said:

As far as the trade deals for reds, one of my favorite quotes from a former dev (Wilki) is, 

"Being red doesn’t mean you’re on the “red team”. It means that you’re a murderer, an outcast from society, someone whose past deeds are so horrible that the good, law-abiding citizens of Britannia feel obligated to oppose you at every step."

In other words:

Please spent your money on another game with PvP content. We don't want you here and have no interest in giving all playstyles equal opportunities.

Do you guys want to earn money or teach people life lessons? Thank god the UO NPCs don't know of my life in GTA  😂

Jade, you do understand that UO is an MMORPG, right? RPG standing for "role playing game". You have the opportunity to be a murderer. Hurray! However, expect consequences.

And if you are not a murderer but only like to play PvP with your best friends? 

I hope you also understand that UO is a video game. You have the opportunity to punish people for just playing your game. Hurray! But expect consequences.

I think a lot of people think reds are bad people. Guilds need reds as the bad people troll by playing on blue characters who are not in VvV, they will attack the champ bosses only and not other players so never turn orange. 

You have no choice but to go red, either that or spend your whole life getting forged pardons

PureLife said:

SwordofExcalibur said:

1. But you are promoting the concept, whether you want to see it that way or not.  Also, I've already addressed this.  Did you catch that part?  Go back to my original post.  If you have a problem with skill points, counter my point with a valid reason.

You did not address anything.

2. About new or returning players, plus-skill-points are not a disadvantage.  New players, given enough time, moxy, and ingenuity, can acquire these items.  They are not unobtainable.  Give a valid reason why you think those items are unobtainable, because saying that players have enought to worry about without having to farm or make their own gold is a flawed argument.  MMO's are designed to acquire currency.  Any RPG has this concept as a staple.

Currency has nothing to do with game balance.

3. About players wanting to remain at the current level of power, I touched on this in my original post.  Solo-players in PVM would be affected if you change the level of power.  You're saying they need a nerf too?  Give valid reasons.  New players being overcome with too many game-mechanics is not a valid reason.  Plenty of players have proven the game mechanics are able to be learned.  Unless, you're looking for players to have quite an awfully easy time getting into game-play without much challenge. 

I never once proposed a nerf now your just spinning things to try and make your argument have any merit. I'd like to see one of these solo PvM templates that cannot survive with 820 skill points.

3. "but I am still open to being enlightened on why the game should not have proper balance.." I talked about this previously about in my post.  You're not addressing it.  Are you sure your open-minded?

Once again you never addressed anything.

4. "It's been probably the biggest reason for the decline of PvP since Age of Shadows that items have trumped player skill in PvP and right now you cannot argue that statement as players have literally 100 skill points more to use then the average player."

Oh, you're going to need to provide proof and examples to back up this claim.  You've already been counter-argued on this by a Dev and several other posters.  Atm, this is a poor claim and you lack proof.

Look at every single shard no one PvP's anymore outside of 50 people on Atlantic.

 "It's no wonder PvP in this game is dead and will continue to be dead even after Endless Journey. Players cannot accept critical balance updates that are needed for the overall benefit of the game."

Define dead and elaborate this claim.  I see people PVPing on a regular basis and is an alluring reason, along with nostalgia, for people to return to the game and enjoy PVP.  I know this because I read Gen chat daily.  I hear statements about excitement for the game and the desire to return to PVP.  (I know, the trash-talk is endless.)  Forums have a history showing PVP is still very much alive in UO.

No need to elaborate lol obviously you don't PvP.

I have a speculation from the way you word your posts, you are probably looking to play UO in an era that has since passed.  This is actually a trend with some game players.  Many people seek out information from Dev's about a legacy option for UO.  Devs have said that is not feasible for many reasons.  You might do a search on it.

Thanks!

And on this I am done responding to you. You are simply a troll trying to spin something your way. Not once I have I mentioned or even hinted towards playing 'an era that has passed' but thanks for trying to derail my topic with something that had no place in the conversation to try and spin something into your favor because you have no reasonably argument to support your claims.

That's unfortunate.  Your deflections are not answers or supports of your positions.  And your use of name-calling only supports the idea your not capable of effective arguing.

Well, good luck anyway.  May the record show you cannot defend your positions.  I'd be happy to revisit should you change your mind.  Take care.

Kyronix said:

As far as the trade deals for reds, one of my favorite quotes from a former dev (Wilki) is, 

"Being red doesn’t mean you’re on the “red team”. It means that you’re a murderer, an outcast from society, someone whose past deeds are so horrible that the good, law-abiding citizens of Britannia feel obligated to oppose you at every step."

That being said I do see where you are coming from, and this has come up at several meet & greets.  We've talked about how to provide trade-deal-esque type bonuses for those who prefer a PvP centric playstyle as a result.  If anything something like this would find itself in VvV as a means to encourage competition and participation, as well appeal to different styles of PvP.

I am really glad to see the conceptualization of Reds in Ultima Online has not soften over the years. Being "Red" does not mean as much as it did before the world was split between Trammel and Felluca.

All things considered, being "Blue" is not much of a statement either and never was. Many Blue characters have been equiped with equipment and Powerscrolls gained through the player's Red characters. The two share a house in Felluca where tbey trade equipment, resources and stories, the Blue laughs just as heartily as the Red when he tells the tale about how he got the last batch of powescrolls off some poor sap on his first Champion spawn.

From a true roleplaying standpoint I would have loved to see such item upon being looted in Fellucca gain the title "Stained by blood of an Innocent" and any character using them turned perma-Red (or at least perma-Grey). The tainted would not apply to items looted from Red and Grey characters. Final suggestion: Taint can be removed but ONLY by the character it was looted from. I.E.  if the player wants to use ill-gotten loot on any character except his Red, he needs to track down the player he killed and ask nicely to be forgiven. Sound like a good roleplay opportunity?

Jade, you do understand that UO is an MMORPG, right? RPG standing for "role playing game". You have the opportunity to be a murderer. Hurray! However, expect consequences.

And if you are not a murderer but only like to play PvP with your best friends? 

I hope you also understand that UO is a video game. You have the opportunity to punish people for just playing your game. Hurray! But expect consequences.
- - - The quote included too much.  Deleting the excess screwed up formatting. ---
You make a good point about friend PvP.  One way it might be easily implemented is have the two parties Honor each other prior to fighting. There should be public notice of each Honor act so both parties (and onlookers too) know that this will be a consensual fight.

Yes, I know UO is a video game. But like any game, there are rules.

Rock said:

Jade, you do understand that UO is an MMORPG, right? RPG standing for "role playing game". You have the opportunity to be a murderer. Hurray! However, expect consequences.

And if you are not a murderer but only like to play PvP with your best friends? 

I hope you also understand that UO is a video game. You have the opportunity to punish people for just playing your game. Hurray! But expect consequences.

- - - The quote included too much.  Deleting the excess screwed up formatting. ---
You make a good point about friend PvP.  One way it might be easily implemented is have the two parties Honor each other prior to fighting. There should be public notice of each Honor act so both parties (and onlookers too) know that this will be a consensual fight.

Yes, I know UO is a video game. But like any game, there are rules.

--------------------

Or simply, and that's what the OP asks for, give reds access to trade deals.

No one asked to remove all differences between reds and blues. It was just about a town buff you can't get when your are red.

Some people dragged it on this meta-level away from the initial suggestion, but everyone reading the OP again should realize it's two very simple concerns he raises, no meta discussion about morality in gaming in general.

E: Quotation for me bugged as well. Maybe a mod can fix..

The quote from Kyronix sums it all up very well I think. No benefits for reds if you ask me.

What the difference between someone who murders all day in VvV and the Reds of old? Nothing except since theyre orange and cant get counted.  Even if they flag people who are blue and happen to go red, there is unlimited pardons to get to go back blue and pretend your not a murderer.   When in fact nothing has changed, murders still happen non stop, just no counts are given.  Bring back reds and restore the real UO, stop with this fake PC UO that's fake.

The_Higgs_1 said:

(...)

Bring back reds and restore the real UO, stop with this fake PC UO that's fake.

Reds have all Fel to play in & with. Not all the Players are in UO for the sake of systematical PvP killing sprees (Deco buffs, e.g.). It is disg... cutible enough to see what happens at big IDOCs, even in Tram (mass killing form abused Pets released in the Wild, etc.).
I.