VvV Item Abuse By Non-VvV Participating Characters

VvV items are being abused in Trammel similar to the old faction gear. Players that have no intention of PVP-ing nor leaving Trammel are able to claim 4 artifacts for free without ever doing anything in the VvV system. These artifacts last a VERY long time despite having the 'Antique' property and are more powerful than their original counterparts. This goes against the spirit of these items and devalues a lot of bosses/content in the game.

I propose two easy changes:

• No VvV points are given to new characters/guilds joining VvV
• All VvV artifacts receive an additional "Cannot Be Repaired" tag

Combined both of these changes would impose active participation in the VvV system to continue the use the artifacts.

What's my incentive to get a real Ornament of the Magician? Crystalline Ring? Crimson Cincture? Primer? Etc.

They ruined things already by allowing players to start with 2k silver points, people have already made and deleted mass amounts of chars and got all the vvv rewards. Market ruined already. Bit like powerscrolls not shard being shard bound from day 1. 

Mervyn said:

They ruined things already by allowing players to start with 2k silver points, people have already made and deleted mass amounts of chars and got all the vvv rewards. Market ruined already. Bit like powerscrolls not shard being shard bound from day 1. 

That's odd because VvV arties are character bound. No other character can wear them, ever so there is no market to ruin.

Urge said:

Mervyn said:

They ruined things already by allowing players to start with 2k silver points, people have already made and deleted mass amounts of chars and got all the vvv rewards. Market ruined already. Bit like powerscrolls not shard being shard bound from day 1. 

That's odd because VvV arties are character bound. No other character can wear them, ever so there is no market to ruin.

Why let facts get in the way of an argument (:

I said vvv rewards, not talking about artis, I mean the decos and royal pardons worth 10k silver points each. And supanovas. They are not char bound.

I don't think you can get any of the Deco or Royal pardons for 2k. The supernovas for Sure I could see being an issue, but I am an advocate for the artifacts and the free 2k points in VvV. The artifacts are antique and don't last very long in medium combat, but can make it easier on new and returning players starting with nothing. 

King_Greg said:

I am an advocate for the artifacts and the free 2k points in VvV. The artifacts are antique and don't last very long in medium combat, but can make it easier on new and returning players starting with nothing. 

I'd imagine it's close to, if not well over, 100m in items with HIGHER stats that we being HANDED out. Mind you these artifacts are even more powerful than what is obtainable in the real artifacts that arguably take hours of game play to get. Who cares they're antique when you can leave and re-join VvV and get brand new 255/255 durability ones for free?

This is the same problem that the old system had and within 1 week of VvV going live people were sitting in Luna with them on.  This is what the minority player base wants so UO gives it to them just like all these other "FIXES" that bleeds over to PvM and never gets fixed.

username said:

King_Greg said:

I am an advocate for the artifacts and the free 2k points in VvV. The artifacts are antique and don't last very long in medium combat, but can make it easier on new and returning players starting with nothing. 

I'd imagine it's close to, if not well over, 100m in items with HIGHER stats that we being HANDED out. Mind you these artifacts are even more powerful than what is obtainable in the real artifacts that arguably take hours of game play to get. Who cares they're antique when you can leave and re-join VvV and get brand new 255/255 durability ones for free?

When you rejoin you only get 500 points so there is a little drawback. But for the most part I do agree.

I think VvV artifacts should be left alone while legacy artifacts receive an updated makeover to remotely resemble the quality of loot available.

Really need to revisit this. VvV artifacts are being highly abused. There's no incentive to get the real artifact when you can just cycle and get them for free with BETTER stats.

I would suggest one more easy change @Mesanna ; @Bleak @Kyronix

VvV artifacts either cannot be equipped in Trammel or provide no stats in Trammel. 
Again, they devalue content considerably. If that's the goal, why not just hand out all artifacts for free while we're at it?

Please consider.

Nothing wrong with VvV items, its no different then someone collecting blackthorn arties to avoid having to do ML content.  Do not touch VvV items they are fine.

King_Greg said:

I don't think you can get any of the Deco or Royal pardons for 2k. The supernovas for Sure I could see being an issue, but I am an advocate for the artifacts and the free 2k points in VvV. The artifacts are antique and don't last very long in medium combat, but can make it easier on new and returning players starting with nothing. 

ive been using mine 4-5 years. 

unless spawing or farming every single day they basically last forever.

considering the drop rate on the normal items, yes they are too powerful and should be removed or changed.

if crimsons were meant to be like a worthless, dropped every single time, maybe multiple times per boss id be ok with the vvv versions.  Whats the point of doing dreadhorn, shimmering effusion, etc if i can get a better version of the item for free?

as it is now, the vvv artifacts eliminate the need to do game content.

Now many might say "but pvp is game content and it lets players get in the game faster".  Yes, i agree with that.  But pvp is only available in Fel.

Simple fix - make vvv arties fall off and not be equipable in tram.

another fix would be to make the regular versions better than the VVV versions.  Right now tho its basically the opposite of what it should rationally be. 

The faction versions were created at a time when gearing was much harder, and about 10 times more expensive if you consider inflation.  so there was more of a need for a little stat boost.

now with legendaries, and abundance of cheap, easy to get arties from cleanup points, crafting, doom revamp, crafting etc thats far from the case any more.  the faction / vvv stats have outworn their purpose.

Except on Siege, where its still hard to gear.  and its the only shard where you cant get them.  again, the opposite of what you would rationally think would be the case.

The_Higgs_1 said:

Nothing wrong with VvV items, its no different then someone collecting blackthorn arties to avoid having to do ML content.  Do not touch VvV items they are fine.

What? If it's no different, show me where I can join a guild and get free blackthorn artifacts with better stats than the original artifacts for free in 1 minute. LOL!

I think what you meant is it's completely different content is not equal to getting something for free.

Done.

Trismegistos said:

What will be next? I know somebody  who owns a house on felucca but didn't participate in pvp.There are bigger problems than getting something for free.

God great we are a few hundreds of people and still bashing each other.

I posted my position, gave several reasons why they should be changed/what's wrong with them and gave very simple examples on how to fix the problem. I'm sorry, but your argument (or lack of?) without any evidence or support does not change my mind. 

Next.

So someone does pvm in trammel with a vvv crimson on and gains the entire 5 free dex.  OMG such gamebreaking materials.   LOL  come on now, give me a break.

Ah and by the way people don't do the content because unless its updated the loot is complete garbage.  Are you gonna run 500 Mel's just for a shot at a crimson or glacial dye and nothing else?!?!

LOL, the entitled millennial attitude, "Cant be bothered to do the game content so just give me it for free now."

K

The_Higgs_1 said:

  OMG such gamebreaking materials.   LOL  come on now, give me a break.

Basically your PvP posts in a nutshell.  Nailed it.

So I post valid points and get attacked by the OP and someone else.   How about those attack posts get deleted.

The_Higgs_1 said:

Ah and by the way people don't do the content because unless its updated the loot is complete garbage.  Are you gonna run 500 Mel's just for a shot at a crimson or glacial dye and nothing else?!?!

 I did this on a new character on a new shard to see how worthwhile it was. Everything was broken within a week. At best it gives some good gear to get 3-7 days of training in.  Yep this is totally wrecking PvP and UO as a whole LOL.

Tyrath said:

 I did this on a new character on a new shard to see how worthwhile it was. Everything was broken within a week. At best it gives some good gear to get 3-7 days of training in.  Yep this is totally wrecking PvP and UO as a whole LOL.

I have EM event toons on all shards, using VVV headress and crimson, been over 2 years since i created them and they still using the 1 of 2 on each one.
You go to event , you attack boss, take dmg and after 3 or 4 events, you repair.
This vvv equipments, if you know how to really play the game, will last forever.

Vladimir said:

I have EM event toons on all shards, using VVV headress and crimson, been over 2 years since i created them and they still using the 1 of 2 on each one.
You go to event , you attack boss, take dmg and after 3 or 4 events, you repair.
This vvv equipments, if you know how to really play the game, will last forever.

Thank you for your input and being honest. You are dead correct that these artifacts can and will last forever... and that's really the problem with them.

username said:

Vladimir said:

I have EM event toons on all shards, using VVV headress and crimson, been over 2 years since i created them and they still using the 1 of 2 on each one.
You go to event , you attack boss, take dmg and after 3 or 4 events, you repair.
This vvv equipments, if you know how to really play the game, will last forever.

Thank you for your input and being honest. You are dead correct that these artifacts can and will last forever... and that's really the problem with them.

I play in Felucca, PvP and VvV.

I don't VvV for these rewards, the Antique tag makes them useless, they burn down in seconds.

I will not wear any VvV items, they need a buff, and definitely getting rid of the Antique tag.

I don't think any actual player would use VvV items - notice the above example, the player only plays EM events... When he talks about really playing the game, he means Banksitting.

So whilst I disagree that VvV items are any use to the actual guys who want to use them, I can see maybe they are abused.

Ban them from Trammel? Fine.

Cookie said:

I play in Felucca, PvP and VvV.

I don't VvV for these rewards, the Antique tag makes them useless, they burn down in seconds.

I will not wear any VvV items, they need a buff, and definitely getting rid of the Antique tag.

I don't think any actual player would use VvV items - notice the above example, the player only plays EM events... When he talks about really playing the game, he means Banksitting.

So whilst I disagree that VvV items are any use to the actual guys who want to use them, I can see maybe they are abused.

Ban them from Trammel? Fine.

They are already better than their original artifact counterparts. No buff lol. If you play in Felucca, PVP and VvV then you are using the artifacts for their intended purpose and you will have no problem purchasing replacements when they wear out.

Zero stats for VVV gear in trammel would be an excellent fix @Kyronix ;

Especially with the destruction of Blackthorns artifacts it would be a great way to encourage people to actually do the content

username said:

Cookie said:

I play in Felucca, PvP and VvV.

I don't VvV for these rewards, the Antique tag makes them useless, they burn down in seconds.

I will not wear any VvV items, they need a buff, and definitely getting rid of the Antique tag.

I don't think any actual player would use VvV items - notice the above example, the player only plays EM events... When he talks about really playing the game, he means Banksitting.

So whilst I disagree that VvV items are any use to the actual guys who want to use them, I can see maybe they are abused.

Ban them from Trammel? Fine.

They are already better than their original artifact counterparts. No buff lol. If you play in Felucca, PVP and VvV then you are using the artifacts for their intended purpose and you will have no problem purchasing replacements when they wear out.

Zero stats for VVV gear in trammel would be an excellent fix @ Mesanna @ @ Kyronix 

Especially with the destruction of Blackthorns artifacts it would be a great way to encourage people to actually do the content

I've already stated I PvP, VvV and will not use the items. I don't care if you think they are better because they have better stats. They wear down too fast, and I actually want to play the game, ie PvP, rather than keep worrying about the state of my gear all the time.

So the items are pointless, for the players who would actually want to earn them and use them for the right reasons.

I've just made another thread, where I mention my IDOC PvP for around 4 hours in total nonstop last night. It was intense, at no point during that, do I want to be thinking about my gear. That was just 1 fight... I fight all the time.

But to agree with you on this thread topic, though maybe for completely different reasons - ban them from Trammel, to stop other types of abuse you mention - sure.

Cookie said:

username said:

Cookie said:

I play in Felucca, PvP and VvV.

I don't VvV for these rewards, the Antique tag makes them useless, they burn down in seconds.

I will not wear any VvV items, they need a buff, and definitely getting rid of the Antique tag.

I don't think any actual player would use VvV items - notice the above example, the player only plays EM events... When he talks about really playing the game, he means Banksitting.

So whilst I disagree that VvV items are any use to the actual guys who want to use them, I can see maybe they are abused.

Ban them from Trammel? Fine.

They are already better than their original artifact counterparts. No buff lol. If you play in Felucca, PVP and VvV then you are using the artifacts for their intended purpose and you will have no problem purchasing replacements when they wear out.

Zero stats for VVV gear in trammel would be an excellent fix @ Mesanna @ @ Kyronix 

Especially with the destruction of Blackthorns artifacts it would be a great way to encourage people to actually do the content

I've already stated I PvP, VvV and will not use the items. I don't care if you think they are better because they have better stats. They wear down too fast, and I actually want to play the game, ie PvP, rather than keep worrying about the state of my gear all the time.

So the items are pointless, for the players who would actually want to earn them and use them for the right reasons.

I've just made another thread, where I mention my IDOC PvP for around 4 hours in total nonstop last night. It was intense, at no point during that, do I want to be thinking about my gear. That was just 1 fight... I fight all the time.

But to agree with you on this thread topic, though maybe for completely different reasons - ban them from Trammel, to stop other types of abuse you mention - sure.

AtomicBetty said:

Cookie said:

username said:

Cookie said:

I play in Felucca, PvP and VvV.

I don't VvV for these rewards, the Antique tag makes them useless, they burn down in seconds.

I will not wear any VvV items, they need a buff, and definitely getting rid of the Antique tag.

I don't think any actual player would use VvV items - notice the above example, the player only plays EM events... When he talks about really playing the game, he means Banksitting.

So whilst I disagree that VvV items are any use to the actual guys who want to use them, I can see maybe they are abused.

Ban them from Trammel? Fine.

They are already better than their original artifact counterparts. No buff lol. If you play in Felucca, PVP and VvV then you are using the artifacts for their intended purpose and you will have no problem purchasing replacements when they wear out.

Zero stats for VVV gear in trammel would be an excellent fix @ Mesanna @ @ Kyronix 

Especially with the destruction of Blackthorns artifacts it would be a great way to encourage people to actually do the content

I've already stated I PvP, VvV and will not use the items. I don't care if you think they are better because they have better stats. They wear down too fast, and I actually want to play the game, ie PvP, rather than keep worrying about the state of my gear all the time.

So the items are pointless, for the players who would actually want to earn them and use them for the right reasons.

I've just made another thread, where I mention my IDOC PvP for around 4 hours in total nonstop last night. It was intense, at no point during that, do I want to be thinking about my gear. That was just 1 fight... I fight all the time.

But to agree with you on this thread topic, though maybe for completely different reasons - ban them from Trammel, to stop other types of abuse you mention - sure.

But if your any kind of decent pvper your using Antique jewels anyways and since VvV artifacts are free you don't even need to worry about them breaking if they do actually break (which they won't in one night of PvP) then just go get new ones. Which is something you should appreciate since getting the 500 points is 'objective' based pvp. So for a guy who claims to like objective based pvp you do not support that claim by not using VvV artifacts and trying to engage in fights over towns.

To support the claim we engage in VvV townfights, my guild is far and away in the lead on the VvV Leaderboards, and always has been. Myself and my guildmembers are currently; 2nd,5th,6th,7th,8th,13th,14th,16th,18th,19th,20th and 21st on the VvV Leaderboards - taking up 12 spots of the top 25. This has been done via actual PvP in the most part, and not via farming, scripting or macroing. {A couple of thief's included}.

I  VvV for Supernova potions mainly - cannot have enough of these - I know I can use EJ characters to collect Supernova's by the ton, but again, I prefer to actually play it. Currently need a ton of Royal Pardons as I have pushed my characters so far Red in recent PvP they will never see Trammel again... I don't mind this of course, in fact I enjoy being Red, but I do also like using Town Buffs, and the Virtues, so one half of my playstyle, is harming the other half of my playstyle.

I must not be a decent PvPer, as I will not use Antique jewellery - I rage enough at having to use Brittle... - I need durability, I don't need to occupy any headspace on my gear, and I certainly am not going to be changing gear parts over after/before/during every fight. So no, I will not be seen dead in VvV gear due to its deficiencies. And I cannot be the only one thinking like this - I hardly see {you}, or anyone else doing VvV due to the "lack of decent rewards" being the mainly quoted reason... No-one likes the VvV gear. One of the main requests to boost VvV is to boost the rewards... IE the Antique armour that is given out.

When I log in, I start Scouting immediately, or I am immediately called to help out in a fight somewhere, I do not get time to mess around with armour. Restocking is bad enough for me, If I die, I usually restock on the field, as we've usually killed enough. I spend Sunday mornings in my castle putting away all the Loot I've collected during the week/repairing gear on all my characters, that is my only downtime, in between Work, Kids, a Social Life, PvP… 🙂

How have faction artifacts diminished your gameplay in any capacity?

Your brainpower would be better served elsewhere.

Nikard said:

How have faction artifacts diminished your gameplay in any capacity?

Your brainpower would be better served elsewhere.

Who are you responding to?

Cookie said:

Nikard said:

How have faction artifacts diminished your gameplay in any capacity?

Your brainpower would be better served elsewhere.

Who are you responding to?

Everyone that has been trying to beat this dead horse of a topic for the last 15 years.

Lots of areas of the game need updates, vvv being one of them. Faction artifacts being used by "non participating members" however, is a non issue.

username said:

Especially with the destruction of Blackthorns artifacts it would be a great way to encourage people to actually do the content

Blackthorn artifacts will not be destroyed. You will still be able to get them from captains in the city pod area. The only thing they are getting rid of is the other monster spawn in that dungeon to prevent people from easily script farming those.

Max_Blackoak said:

username said:

Especially with the destruction of Blackthorns artifacts it would be a great way to encourage people to actually do the content

Blackthorn artifacts will not be destroyed. You will still be able to get them from captains in the city pod area. The only thing they are getting rid of is the other monster spawn in that dungeon to prevent people from easily script farming those.

I sincerely hope that they have not 'got rid' of the other monster spawn. I was under the impression that this was part of the seasonal arc ( @Kyronix ?).  I have some Minax artifacts collected and need a further 30 to get what I was saving for. My character is not up to soloing the captains, I spend far to much time running away from the yellow captains while trying to kill the other spawn!  I also usually use Fel Blackthorns and never have any problem with scripters.

Petra_Fyde said:

Max_Blackoak said:

username said:

Especially with the destruction of Blackthorns artifacts it would be a great way to encourage people to actually do the content

Blackthorn artifacts will not be destroyed. You will still be able to get them from captains in the city pod area. The only thing they are getting rid of is the other monster spawn in that dungeon to prevent people from easily script farming those.

I sincerely hope that they have not 'got rid' of the other monster spawn. I was under the impression that this was part of the seasonal arc ( @ Kyronix ?).  I have some Minax artifacts collected and need a further 30 to get what I was saving for. My character is not up to soloing the captains, I spend far to much time running away from the yellow captains while trying to kill the other spawn!  I also usually use Fel Blackthorns and never have any problem with scripters.

I'm in exactly the same position as you Petra.

I personally hunt the Felucca Mages, Golden Elementals and the Balron. It would again damage my playstyle to get rid of these. I also hunt Oranges there.

I'm also hoping/expecting it to just be part of the Arc, but part of me can see them permanently getting rid of such spawn, just to bury the scripting problem... which would be a bit of a cop-out.

Having thought about it, they will probably just make the Arc Trammel related only, which would destroy Trammel Blackthorn spawn, and leave Felucca alone... which would suit me, as there is no scripting problem in Felucca anyway, and it would allow me to continue normal hunts. Although it does wind me up, when they do Trammel only events... All of this is hypothetical, see what happens, if I like it I join in, If I don't, I don't.

 The big question I have here is.... How is people using these in tram having any negative impact on PvP or VvV ?  Or is just the latest major issue that is a total non issue?

Tyrath said:

 The big question I have here is.... How is people using these in tram having any negative impact on PvP or VvV ? 

No-one has said it does.

The Opener wanted to Nerf some already useless VvV items, which I could not see the point of.

I then accepted that maybe they can be abused in Trammel, and that if he wanted them banned from Trammel, fine. (Too easy to set up characters on every shard for EM events etc).

To quote the opener below, I could not agree with the 2 parts in Bold, and I would respond to his part in Italics - that the items he mentions, are the originals and have no durability loss, and can be blessed which makes them infinitely more desirable, even if the VvV items have a few more stats.

"These artifacts last a VERY long time despite having the 'Antique' property and are more powerful than their original counterparts. This goes against the spirit of these items and devalues a lot of bosses/content in the game.
I propose two easy changes:

• No VvV points are given to new characters/guilds joining VvV
• All VvV artifacts receive an additional "Cannot Be Repaired" tag

Combined both of these changes would impose active participation in the VvV system to continue the use the artifacts.

What's my incentive to get a real Ornament of the Magician? Crystalline Ring? Crimson Cincture? Primer? Etc."

Max_Blackoak said:

username said:

Especially with the destruction of Blackthorns artifacts it would be a great way to encourage people to actually do the content

Blackthorn artifacts will not be destroyed. You will still be able to get them from captains in the city pod area. The only thing they are getting rid of is the other monster spawn in that dungeon to prevent people from easily script farming those.

Yes, I understand. This was not a literal retroactive destruction of these artifacts. Meaning, these artifacts are going to be a LOT harder to get and most people probably wont' bother.

Cookie said:

Petra_Fyde said:

I sincerely hope that they have not 'got rid' of the other monster spawn. I was under the impression that this was part of the seasonal arc ( @ Kyronix ?).  I have some Minax artifacts collected and need a further 30 to get what I was saving for. My character is not up to soloing the captains, I spend far to much time running away from the yellow captains while trying to kill the other spawn!  I also usually use Fel Blackthorns and never have any problem with scripters.

I'm in exactly the same position as you Petra.

I personally hunt the Felucca Mages, Golden Elementals and the Balron. It would again damage my playstyle to get rid of these. I also hunt Oranges there.

I'm also hoping/expecting it to just be part of the Arc, but part of me can see them permanently getting rid of such spawn, just to bury the scripting problem... which would be a bit of a cop-out.

Having thought about it, they will probably just make the Arc Trammel related only, which would destroy Trammel Blackthorn spawn, and leave Felucca alone... which would suit me, as there is no scripting problem in Felucca anyway, and it would allow me to continue normal hunts. Although it does wind me up, when they do Trammel only events... All of this is hypothetical, see what happens, if I like it I join in, If I don't, I don't.

This is exactly what is being done. You can see for yourself on TC1. In both fel/tram it's not only blocked off but there is no lesser spawn. I believe they said going forward, after the story arc, the lesser spawn will not drop the turn-in/minor artifacts and they will solely be from the captains. Another knee-jerk reaction that destroys the casual player like myself on a small shard. Guess the devs really want everyone to move to Atlantic to be able to do anything lol. But anyways, that's for another discussion.

Cookie said:

Tyrath said:

 The big question I have here is.... How is people using these in tram having any negative impact on PvP or VvV ? 

No-one has said it does.

The Opener wanted to Nerf some already useless VvV items, which I could not see the point of.

I then accepted that maybe they can be abused in Trammel, and that if he wanted them banned from Trammel, fine. (Too easy to set up characters on every shard for EM events etc).

To quote the opener below, I could not agree with the 2 parts in Bold, and I would respond to his part in Italics - that the items he mentions, are the originals and have no durability loss, and can be blessed which makes them infinitely more desirable, even if the VvV items have a few more stats.

"These artifacts last a VERY long time despite having the 'Antique' property and are more powerful than their original counterparts. This goes against the spirit of these items and devalues a lot of bosses/content in the game.
I propose two easy changes:

• No VvV points are given to new characters/guilds joining VvV
• All VvV artifacts receive an additional "Cannot Be Repaired" tag

Combined both of these changes would impose active participation in the VvV system to continue the use the artifacts.

What's my incentive to get a real Ornament of the Magician? Crystalline Ring? Crimson Cincture? Primer? Etc."

I think my opener was a bit aggressive. This thread has opened some great conversation and I would like to 'update' my original post and, instead propose just this one simple change:

• VvV artifacts only provide their stat bonuses in Fel

This would be a great catch-all and will fix all the problems I see without making any changes to their intended use or changing any current suits/gameplay. I will remove the point "No VvV points are given to new characters/guilds joining VvV" because as long as these items are being used for their original purposes, PvP and reward for PvP, and since PvP is mostly a Fel facet gameplay, I have no problem with those players receiving these for 'free'. 

So @Mesanna @Kyronix How about making VvV artifacts only provide their stat bonuses in Fel?

Tyrath said:

So @ Mesanna @ Kyronix How about making VvV artifacts only provide their stat bonuses in Fel?

   So again I would ask why? and Why non PvPs using this junk in tram is such a huge issue?  I mean is it just yer fetish burr that rubs you wrong or is there an actual detriment to your game play that is being affected by trammies having these items? 

  Personally I don't care either way about this junk, just seems like a waste of dev time for a total non issue to me.  Unless of course there is some issue with them that is more than (I don't think it should be this way change it.) 

This has already been outlined in the first post and throughout. You are free to read it at your leisure. 

username said:

Tyrath said:

So @ Mesanna @ Kyronix How about making VvV artifacts only provide their stat bonuses in Fel?

   So again I would ask why? and Why non PvPs using this junk in tram is such a huge issue?  I mean is it just yer fetish burr that rubs you wrong or is there an actual detriment to your game play that is being affected by trammies having these items? 

  Personally I don't care either way about this junk, just seems like a waste of dev time for a total non issue to me.  Unless of course there is some issue with them that is more than (I don't think it should be this way change it.) 

This has already been outlined in the first post and throughout. You are free to read it at your leisure. 

   SO I read it again thinking I might have missed something. Nope still just get you don't like therefor it should not be.