Undress/Dress Macro Addition to Classic Client

Greetings,

As many of you have read in our last newsletter, the Classic Client is slated for an update which will allow access to an Undress/Dress macro similar to the current functionality in the Enhanced Client.  We had slated this change for 102, however, due to the nature of this change we would have to bypass our normal release scheme of TC->Origin etc->World Wide which would not allow a feedback period before this feature was released worldwide via server and both clients.  Before we proceed with this change, we would like to garner feedback.  

Currently the undress/dress macro allows for a one second delay between each macro action.  With the addition of this ability in the CC, there would be an increased delay after the redress macro dependent on the number of items attempting to be reequipped.  This is to increase parity between the functionality between both clients as well as maintain balance.  This delay is in line with the current action-use delays you normally experience in the world.

To be clear, the flow of the macro, in both clients, would look like this:

Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress -> delay at 1s per item -> Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress

We expect there will be passionate opinions on both sides, so we are encouraging you to have another look at the posting guidelines before you reply.  Remember there's another human behind the keyboard and to keep things respectful.  We look forward to your feedback.

Sounds brilliant. A win for logic, reason, and a win for the game. Kyronix does it again. 

Please eliminate it altogether 

if if we are forced to have to carry extra suits to play this in a competitive way don’t you think maybe just maybe it’s gotten a little to complicated and should maybe rethink the balance with luck (because after all this is most of why they switch suits) 

if not not make it have a 5 minute cool down and not possible during battle AT ALL until at least 5 minutes has past after battle 

While we are at it please cap skill points at 750 MAX 

flam away 

Xare said:

So, penalize the EC users because CC is limited.  I do not approve, for what its worth. 

Going forward, can we expect there to be a push to one client or the other, or will there be a consistent attempt to balance the clients?  The answer matters.

I don't know this for sure, but i'll make assumptions that it IS possible to make undress/dress in CC without a delay. (Just that the delay was added for obvious reasons)

Kyronix said:

  This is to increase parity between the functionality between both clients as well as maintain balance. 

Bold for emphasis.  Implies that its not possible to do with the current coding in CC.

currently there is no dress/undress maco at all in CC so they could've added a delay in dressing in EC without adding a dress/undress macro in CC to increase parity and maintain balance. I'm guessing, again not sure, they are just doing it at the same time whilst they're touching the coding.

I have a question though, the macro flow implies the need to undress before dress. Is this the case? If so that is very very good. 

I was happy for the CC to get this feature but not if it's going to negatively impact what the EC already has. 

Nobody cares about this outside PvP. Restrict the change nerf to Fel, or those actively engaged in PvP.

Dot_Warner said:

Nobody cares about this outside PvP. Restrict the change nerf to Fel, or those actively engaged in PvP.

I would say it was more of an issue in PvM than PvP, according to most of the people on these forums, hardly anyone pvps anyway. My beef with it was mainly focused on PvMers abusing dress/undress. I'm not fussed whether or not the feature is added in CC since you can do it with third party programs anyway. The delay being added was the biggest win for the community.

Hi Kyronix, 1st of all i would like to thank you and the UO team for your love and commitment for always making UO a better place.

I personally think that 1sec delay per item is very annoying on CC, and insta switching full suits is very OP on EC client.

In order to make it fair for both clients, i suggest that both clients get 0 delay for dress and undress macros. HOWEVER! whenever a player dresses/undresses a base armor part excluding weapons, talismans, sandals or cloak the player will be a subject of the following debuff:
-60ss
-100di
-2Faster casting
-Running mode toggled off

for 3-5seconds timer

This debuff will also create pvp balance by penalizing EC players from instantly switching suits in the middle of the battle.

This will mainly fix other problems on the go related to:
-instantly switching to bestial suits
-instantly switching to fc4/fcr6 items to cast animal form
-dexers instantly switching to mage suits to cast magery/necro spells (curse, corpse skin etc..)
-instantly switching to luck suits before killing a mob

Thank you

Mervyn said:

Dot_Warner said:

Nobody cares about this outside PvP. Restrict the change nerf to Fel, or those actively engaged in PvP.

I would say it was more of an issue in PvM than PvP, according to most of the people on these forums, hardly anyone pvps anyway. My beef with it was mainly focused on PvMers abusing dress/undress. I'm not fussed whether or not the feature is added in CC since you can do it with third party programs anyway. The delay being added was the biggest win for the community.

I know lots of people who PvP, there's something of a resurgence of it on GL right now.

I don't see why PvEers would desire this change or how it would "benefit the community." I don't think the mobs are sitting around griping about players switching into a luck suit before a boss dies.

It's a tiny but vocal minority injecting more needless tedium.

pretty sure you still only have to press one button to switch suits.

LordGandalf said:

Hi Kyronix, 1st of all i would like to thank you and the UO team for your love and commitment for always making UO a better place.

I personally think that 1sec delay per item is very annoying on CC, and insta switching full suits is very OP on EC client.

In order to make it fair for both clients, i suggest that both clients get 0 delay for dress and undress macros. HOWEVER! whenever a player dresses/undresses a base armor part excluding weapons, talismans, sandals or cloak the player will be a subject of the following debuff:
-60ss
-100di
-2Faster casting
-Running mode toggled off

for 3-5seconds timer

This debuff will also create pvp balance by penalizing EC players from instantly switching suits in the middle of the battle.

This will mainly fix other problems on the go related to:
-instantly switching to bestial suits
-instantly switching to fc4/fcr6 items to cast animal form
-dexers instantly switching to mage suits to cast magery/necro spells (curse, corpse skin etc..)
-instantly switching to luck suits before killing a mob

Thank you

Respectfully, I feel like that would overly complicate and make this more of a chore than anything.

Kyronix said:

Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress -> delay at 1s per item -> Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress

Can I (we) get some clarification on this?  After rereading this, I'm interpreting this as if a player just as a simple dress macro for after they die, it would equip everything instantly.  If used in a macro that switches gear, it would include a delay based on the number of items after the dress before it was undressed.

Xare said:

Kyronix said:

Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress -> delay at 1s per item -> Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress

Can I (we) get some clarification on this?  After rereading this, I'm interpreting this as if a player just as a simple dress macro for after they die, it would equip everything instantly.  If used in a macro that switches gear, it would include a delay based on the number of items after the dress before it was undressed.

You hit your undress macro and it will have a 1s delay until you're undressed. You hit dress and you have a delay of 1s per item until you're fully dressed.

I don't really have a dog in this race...or a horse....or whatever 🙂 But I will say that the ONLY reason I use UOA is for the dress macro...sometimes you are unable to get to your corpse right away and since I use the CC, finding that last ring or bracelet under your pile of runebooks is a royal pain! lol so the dress macro in UOA is a life saver for me...and THAT macro does have a 1 second delay for each item that it has to put on. I don't know if you can change that, I never looked, but the delay is really negligible considering the alternative...also with the UOA macro you can move while it's dressing you so I usually get on my ethy, hit the macro and start bookin it back to my bod! 

Now....I haven't PvP'd in forever...since Yew Gate...yeah that's awhile...but I can see how movement while dressing/undressing would effect PvP since  you can switch on the run..while I would hate for that not to be possible, I can see how disallowing movement while dressing would be a good thing...if you want to switch suits mid-battle you're gonna be caught with your pants down..literally! Until you're fully dressed so I think that might deter people from using it in pvp.

The proposed solution sounds good to me! I am glad the devs are listening to the player base

So Mervyn is 1 step closer to running off the PvPers so he can have his Fel shard.  And Kyronix is aiding it.

Why not make the CC do the same as EC?  There has only been 1 player complaining about this macro.  

I guess I need to be more vocal to get some of the pet types buffed so they actually get used.  But more pets would bring more fun to UO.  We cant have that.

@Kyronix can you post numbers on how many more players are doing the roof after Mervyns changes?
I would like to see in facts that taking his advice is helping UO.

Pawain said:

So Mervyn is 1 step closer to running off the PvPers so he can have his Fel shard.  And Kyronix is aiding it.

Why not make the CC do the same as EC?  There has only been 1 player complaining about this macro.  

I guess I need to be more vocal to get some of the pet types buffed so they actually get used.  But more pets would bring more fun to UO.  We cant have that.

@ Kyronix can you post numbers on how many more players are doing the roof after Mervyns changes?
I would like to see in facts that taking his advice is helping UO.

Please keep your comments related to the question posed in the original post and refrain from bringing any personal qualms you have with other posters and keep them to other forms of communication.  

I said why not just leave it as is in the EC and move to CC.  

When something has caused no issues in all the years it has been in the game, why change it.

Why? Because insta suit swapping allows you to bypass many game mechanics.

Also ppl have been complaining about this for a while.

I do NOT believe it is fair to make us (EC USERS) go backwards in what we are doing, people who want it in the cc fine, but if that client is slower it is slower, those of use who use the EC and who have done so since 2009 should NOT be penalized. Everyone has the option to play the EC if they want to do it a bit quicker. If not give an undress/dress macro to the cc users but if it is limited in speed for their client that is their option to play that client.

There is NO Need to slow the EC down to cater to the CC. 

totally agree, but do you mind the 3-5secs penality mentioned in my previous post? i personally can sacrifice with that to allign both clients as long as i can still insta equip

Honestly why do they still listen to this guy, he is making everyone's life miserable and the Dev team are allowing it! Every time a minority decreases the enjoyment of the majority you are going to start losing subs, please don't do this, it's a trend that has become all too apparent in the last couple of years and it has to stop. I don't want to be forced to play Mervyn Online.

Maximus_Neximus said:

Xare said:

Kyronix said:

Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress -> delay at 1s per item -> Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress

Can I (we) get some clarification on this?  After rereading this, I'm interpreting this as if a player just as a simple dress macro for after they die, it would equip everything instantly.  If used in a macro that switches gear, it would include a delay based on the number of items after the dress before it was undressed.

You hit your undress macro and it will have a 1s delay until you're undressed. You hit dress and you have a delay of 1s per item until you're fully dressed.

This is incorrect. You hit your undress macro which results in you becoming undressed then a 1 second delay which is the same as production. You hit the dress macro which results in all of your items being equipped then a 1 second delay per item before your next undress action.

So the dress swap is just as quick as a mannequin, it's the delay in performing it a 2nd time quickly ?

So, if I'm understanding right. You're wearing suit 1 - you swap to suit 2. 1 second to undress, 1 second to dress - and the big delay only comes in if you then decide to switch again, either to a 3rd suit or back to suit 1? 

Petra_Fyde said:

So, if I'm understanding right. You're wearing suit 1 - you swap to suit 2. 1 second to undress, 1 second to dress - and the big delay only comes in if you then decide to switch again, either to a 3rd suit or back to suit 1? 

Correct

Thanks @Bleak ;  I can live with that, I'd expect to be wearing a second suit for much longer than a few seconds before I need to change back - although I have to admit I don't mess around swapping suits mid battle.

Same Petra, the only time I switch suits is when I need my luck suit for that final hit...usually I forget to start the game with UOA so am used to running off with everyone else while we change to our luck suits and hit the statue. Actually from the way Bleak describes it, it's faster then the UOA macro....hmm...now I have to time it lol. 

is this available now in the options (CC)?  If so where? I love to try it.  I have been using the UOA one for years and its so dang slow, but I'm like another here its a pain looking for that last ring to put on so the dress macro UOA has is good, but I love to have a dress maco like above.

Still not clear 
Bleak said:

Petra_Fyde said:

So, if I'm understanding right. You're wearing suit 1 - you swap to suit 2. 1 second to undress, 1 second to dress - and the big delay only comes in if you then decide to switch again, either to a 3rd suit or back to suit 1? 

Correct

When you say suit you do mean full suit (up to 8 items including jewelry and weapons)?

So if you hit your full redress macro (8 items) after putting on the badge to get by the guards it would be only 2 seconds to put all your gear back on?  

If the intent is to keep players from switching armor sets repeatedly wouldn't a cool down on the equip macro be simpler? 

Bleak said:

This is incorrect. You hit your undress macro which results in you becoming undressed then a 1 second delay which is the same as production. You hit the dress macro which results in all of your items being equipped then a 1 second delay per item before your next undress action.

This sounds reasonable and acceptable. This sounds like it will not affect dressing after death, which is where a lot of concern was coming in.

I personally have never swapped suits rapidly and I imagine those who do are doing it to get an advantage, like instant swapping to LRC or SDI gear, then swapping back, or instant swapping to Luck gear for a kill, then swapping back to fight the next mob. This sounds like it will penalize those that are exploiting the dress macro, while not harming those of us that don't (which is how all fixes should be).

The only concern I have is if this will affect weapon swaps as well. Right now, the EC has an "Equip Weapon" macro, which essentially just changes your weapon out without a delay. I can press my macro for Bladed Staff, and it will swap my Double Axe and my Bladed Staff. I can then use the "Equip Last Weapon" macro, again for an instant weapon swap. Will weapon swaps now create a 1s delay? (Unequip > 1s Delay > Equip New Weapon > 1s Delay before you can swap again). I am fine with 1s delay AFTER the swap to prevent rapidly switching weapons, but I hope that the current 'Equip Weapon' and 'Swap Weapon' macros stay the same and do not create a 1s delay between un-equipping and re-equipping a new weapon.

I think Equality between the clients is very important - especially where it can happen. Especially in a competitive game (even PvM is competitive whether you admit it or not!).

You don't call one client an enhanced client, and promote this by deliberately hamstringing one client to force people onto the other. Apple tried this, by restricting battery life on older phone models, and look where it got them, in the end, this is fake marketing practice and will bite you back. Customers see through this and feel deceived, and go to another company. {Worldwise, Samsung benefitted massively from that episode}.

Balance, is also important.

Some questions that have to be asked, and answered, are how do you envision the game be played? Is multiple suit swapping a thing, is it considered part of the gameplay, or an exploit? How does it feel to play the game in this style ? Skett's question was valid, is the real answer to fix the Suits and Armour, so this is not a gameplay requirement? Sometimes - I'd like to know a bit more about the Vision of the Developers behind their logic - how they see or feel the game should be played, and what they are trying to achieve.

I truthfully do not understand from the descriptions given so far, how the new dress/undress macro differs from what already exists in CC/EC. I cannot picture it, it isn't clear enough for me.

To that end, I cannot comment on how good this solution is.

But ultimately, Yes, something absolutely has to be done to balance this out.

Bleak said:

Maximus_Neximus said:

Xare said:

Kyronix said:

Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress -> delay at 1s per item -> Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress

Can I (we) get some clarification on this?  After rereading this, I'm interpreting this as if a player just as a simple dress macro for after they die, it would equip everything instantly.  If used in a macro that switches gear, it would include a delay based on the number of items after the dress before it was undressed.

You hit your undress macro and it will have a 1s delay until you're undressed. You hit dress and you have a delay of 1s per item until you're fully dressed.

This is incorrect. You hit your undress macro which results in you becoming undressed then a 1 second delay which is the same as production. You hit the dress macro which results in all of your items being equipped then a 1 second delay per item before your next undress action.

Bleak said:

Petra_Fyde said:

So, if I'm understanding right. You're wearing suit 1 - you swap to suit 2. 1 second to undress, 1 second to dress - and the big delay only comes in if you then decide to switch again, either to a 3rd suit or back to suit 1? 

Correct

Now that clears up a lot of BS.  So this only affects dress/undress and nothing else like spell casting.

Khyro said:

Bleak said:

This is incorrect. You hit your undress macro which results in you becoming undressed then a 1 second delay which is the same as production. You hit the dress macro which results in all of your items being equipped then a 1 second delay per item before your next undress action.

This sounds reasonable and acceptable. This sounds like it will not affect dressing after death, which is where a lot of concern was coming in.

I personally have never swapped suits rapidly and I imagine those who do are doing it to get an advantage, like instant swapping to LRC or SDI gear, then swapping back, or instant swapping to Luck gear for a kill, then swapping back to fight the next mob. This sounds like it will penalize those that are exploiting the dress macro, while not harming those of us that don't (which is how all fixes should be).

The only concern I have is if this will affect weapon swaps as well. Right now, the EC has an "Equip Weapon" macro, which essentially just changes your weapon out without a delay. I can press my macro for Bladed Staff, and it will swap my Double Axe and my Bladed Staff. I can then use the "Equip Last Weapon" macro, again for an instant weapon swap. Will weapon swaps now create a 1s delay? (Unequip > 1s Delay > Equip New Weapon > 1s Delay before you can swap again). I am fine with 1s delay AFTER the swap to prevent rapidly switching weapons, but I hope that the current 'Equip Weapon' and 'Swap Weapon' macros stay the same and do not create a 1s delay between un-equipping and re-equipping a new weapon.

On production currently, any Equip Item action for a single item has a 1-second delay. The Equip Last Weapon action does not have a delay.

Bleak said:

Khyro said:

Bleak said:

This is incorrect. You hit your undress macro which results in you becoming undressed then a 1 second delay which is the same as production. You hit the dress macro which results in all of your items being equipped then a 1 second delay per item before your next undress action.

This sounds reasonable and acceptable. This sounds like it will not affect dressing after death, which is where a lot of concern was coming in.

I personally have never swapped suits rapidly and I imagine those who do are doing it to get an advantage, like instant swapping to LRC or SDI gear, then swapping back, or instant swapping to Luck gear for a kill, then swapping back to fight the next mob. This sounds like it will penalize those that are exploiting the dress macro, while not harming those of us that don't (which is how all fixes should be).

The only concern I have is if this will affect weapon swaps as well. Right now, the EC has an "Equip Weapon" macro, which essentially just changes your weapon out without a delay. I can press my macro for Bladed Staff, and it will swap my Double Axe and my Bladed Staff. I can then use the "Equip Last Weapon" macro, again for an instant weapon swap. Will weapon swaps now create a 1s delay? (Unequip > 1s Delay > Equip New Weapon > 1s Delay before you can swap again). I am fine with 1s delay AFTER the swap to prevent rapidly switching weapons, but I hope that the current 'Equip Weapon' and 'Swap Weapon' macros stay the same and do not create a 1s delay between un-equipping and re-equipping a new weapon.

On production currently, any Equip Item action for a single item has a 1-second delay. The Equip Last Weapon action does not have a delay.

Does it affect spell casting

Bleak said:

Khyro said:

Bleak said:

This is incorrect. You hit your undress macro which results in you becoming undressed then a 1 second delay which is the same as production. You hit the dress macro which results in all of your items being equipped then a 1 second delay per item before your next undress action.

This sounds reasonable and acceptable. This sounds like it will not affect dressing after death, which is where a lot of concern was coming in.

I personally have never swapped suits rapidly and I imagine those who do are doing it to get an advantage, like instant swapping to LRC or SDI gear, then swapping back, or instant swapping to Luck gear for a kill, then swapping back to fight the next mob. This sounds like it will penalize those that are exploiting the dress macro, while not harming those of us that don't (which is how all fixes should be).

The only concern I have is if this will affect weapon swaps as well. Right now, the EC has an "Equip Weapon" macro, which essentially just changes your weapon out without a delay. I can press my macro for Bladed Staff, and it will swap my Double Axe and my Bladed Staff. I can then use the "Equip Last Weapon" macro, again for an instant weapon swap. Will weapon swaps now create a 1s delay? (Unequip > 1s Delay > Equip New Weapon > 1s Delay before you can swap again). I am fine with 1s delay AFTER the swap to prevent rapidly switching weapons, but I hope that the current 'Equip Weapon' and 'Swap Weapon' macros stay the same and do not create a 1s delay between un-equipping and re-equipping a new weapon.

On production currently, any Equip Item action for a single item has a 1-second delay. The Equip Last Weapon action does not have a delay.

At the risk of getting something inadvertently nerfed, below is a video showing no delay on standard "Equip Weapon" macros. There is a delay after using the macro that prevents you from spamming actions (which I don't have a problem with), but there is no delay between the weapon un-equipping and re-equipping, the swap is instant.



If this behavior is going to remain the same with the new Dress changes, then I don't have any concerns. In either case, I look forward to testing when this goes to TC!

Khyro said:

Bleak said:

Khyro said:

Bleak said:

This is incorrect. You hit your undress macro which results in you becoming undressed then a 1 second delay which is the same as production. You hit the dress macro which results in all of your items being equipped then a 1 second delay per item before your next undress action.

This sounds reasonable and acceptable. This sounds like it will not affect dressing after death, which is where a lot of concern was coming in.

I personally have never swapped suits rapidly and I imagine those who do are doing it to get an advantage, like instant swapping to LRC or SDI gear, then swapping back, or instant swapping to Luck gear for a kill, then swapping back to fight the next mob. This sounds like it will penalize those that are exploiting the dress macro, while not harming those of us that don't (which is how all fixes should be).

The only concern I have is if this will affect weapon swaps as well. Right now, the EC has an "Equip Weapon" macro, which essentially just changes your weapon out without a delay. I can press my macro for Bladed Staff, and it will swap my Double Axe and my Bladed Staff. I can then use the "Equip Last Weapon" macro, again for an instant weapon swap. Will weapon swaps now create a 1s delay? (Unequip > 1s Delay > Equip New Weapon > 1s Delay before you can swap again). I am fine with 1s delay AFTER the swap to prevent rapidly switching weapons, but I hope that the current 'Equip Weapon' and 'Swap Weapon' macros stay the same and do not create a 1s delay between un-equipping and re-equipping a new weapon.

On production currently, any Equip Item action for a single item has a 1-second delay. The Equip Last Weapon action does not have a delay.

At the risk of getting something inadvertently nerfed, below is a video showing no delay on standard "Equip Weapon" macros. There is a delay after using the macro that prevents you from spamming actions (which I don't have a problem with), but there is no delay between the weapon un-equipping and re-equipping, the swap is instant.



If this behavior is going to remain the same with the new Dress changes, then I don't have any concerns. In either case, I look forward to testing when this goes to TC!

Correct any delays that have been mentioned occur after actions are used.

Bleak said:

Correct any delays that have been mentioned occur after actions are used.

Excellent. Thank you for taking the time to clarify!

I am glad that in pvm, functional luck suits with real stats will become relevant again. 

Az_ said:

I currently use the Dress macro to switch between demon slayer and undead slayer talismans on my fighter in doom.  Each dress macro has only 1 item ( the talisman)  this allows me to use any armor/weapon currently equipped and only switch the talisman for the appropriate target.

With the new dress macro, will I be standing unarmed and naked except for the talisman?  or will it just switch talisman as it does now?

If I add all the equipment to both macros will I be naked for 1 second between undress and dress?

No you won’t be naked. You will only be naked if you do set to undress all. You can set what items get unequipped in EC, will presume the same will be true for CC.

seems some people are not even reading the proposed solution and proceed directly to ranting against this change. 

Bleak said:

Maximus_Neximus said:

Xare said:

Kyronix said:

Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress -> delay at 1s per item -> Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress

Can I (we) get some clarification on this?  After rereading this, I'm interpreting this as if a player just as a simple dress macro for after they die, it would equip everything instantly.  If used in a macro that switches gear, it would include a delay based on the number of items after the dress before it was undressed.

You hit your undress macro and it will have a 1s delay until you're undressed. You hit dress and you have a delay of 1s per item until you're fully dressed.

This is incorrect. You hit your undress macro which results in you becoming undressed then a 1 second delay which is the same as production. You hit the dress macro which results in all of your items being equipped then a 1 second delay per item before your next undress action.

Sounds fair. 2 seconds to change suits.  So since this does not affect the play in Trammel that posters are complaining about: (someone switching from a fighting suit to a Luck suit.)   

Can this be a Fel only change? Since the codes are already in place. 

Miss E brought up examples where this will hinder when ressing the normal way we have been doing for years. Also she has no Tram.  Let Siege players vote on the delay.

Mervyn said:

Pawain, why would they make it fel only when most of the abuse of it is in tram in PvE?

Sounds fair. 2 second delay in tram like I said. No delay in Fel since this is not an issue in Fel.

But it needs to be tested for ressing issues and Siege wont get the delay.

So is it a Tram or Fel issue?

Exactly what will it fix in Tram?  This stops no player from putting on a luck suit.   Is there other issues in Tram that I don't know about?  I could put on a luck suit before a Boss dies replacing 1 piece at a time.  Be not aggroed and/or invisble while you change.

Then do so, that is the game. 


But but you now may find those legendary items that already have luck on, a little more useful/valuable.

I believe many ppl will enjoy building a good functional luck suit. It will provide many hours of fun. Also this change will make crafters more important.

cobb said:

I believe many ppl will enjoy building a good functional luck suit. It will provide many hours of fun. Also this change will make crafters more important.

Nobody changes into their luck suit while being attacked.  On a boss the damage was done you could stop fighting and the others kill it.  A solo person will do whatever they did before.

A T Hunter is switching out of the luck suit and into a fighting suit.

Nobody will be getting a new Luck suit.  And the people doing this have collected the pieces for years, they have good stats.

Pawain said:

Exactly what will it fix in Tram?  This stops no player from putting on a luck suit.   Is there other issues in Tram that I don't know about?  I could put on a luck suit before a Boss dies replacing 1 piece at a time.  Be not aggroed and/or invisble while you change.

So what exactly is your complaint then? I thought you guys were complaining because you wouldn't  be able to use your luck suit. But now you are saying it wont affect your gameplay at all. So which is it?

Seems you're just being vocal because of who is posting.

Pawain, if its any consolation, I’m sure the devs and moderators cringe when they have to agree with me and exhaust all other possible avenues before doing so. 

I have no idea what this fixes in Tram.  Why so we need something that does nothing?

I'm glad it is you and he that can give no reason this should be implemented in Tram.

You want the devs to change a code that does not fix this so called bug that players can switch suits.  I'm confused.

where is the VvV update!?

Please leave PVM alone, this is a valuable feature and not just for luck suits, why does PVP have to set the rules for the majority of us that do not PVP?

I’ll be interested to see how the CC dress macro handles morph earrings. As currently on UOA I have to set 2 dress macros, one to dress morph earrings and human gear, the other to dress elven gear or else UOA all but crashes as the macro unsuccessfully tries to equip elven items before the morph earrings get equipped.

I have removed many irrelevant postings. The topic is in the title.

Please leave PvM alone and please leave the EC alone.

When you say “leave PvM Alone” can you please expand and explain how you’re currently using the dress macro in PvM and how the changes will impact you.

I'm a bit lost as to what all the fuss is about.  This will add functionality to the classic client, while having minimal impact on the enhanced. It won't affect me at all. It's an undress macro, not an unequip one. Does anyone really swap an entire suit 3 times in as many seconds? 

the first time I used EC, I said to myself we need this Dress macro for CC. I mainly got on EC to check the numbers on potted plants. I love that choice on EC but I can't play it for very long. And I don't know why but I can't download Pinco's. So hearing that this could/would be available for CC, it makes my tamer happy. Cause I could fully suit up without having to touch my body, therefore I could actually be able to pre-cast an invis & run up to grab my body. Now I have to wait for it to be clear before I can make a run for it, after I have already dragged all my clothes on.

Dress undress functionality in PvM is a fun, engaging mechanic that gives players something extra to do inside and outside of combat. Apart from letting players kill mobs a little faster (oh no - less grind!) it has no downsides. Nerfing it in EC to please a couple of vocal players will accomplish nothing but decrease player engagement.

Either both clients can do it or neither. Either way is fair.

Mervyn said:

When you say “leave PvM Alone” can you please expand and explain how you’re currently using the dress macro in PvM and how the changes will impact you.

You admit the changes will no affect the Tram gameplay but you still want it in Tram. Can you explain why?  I would love @Kyronix to hear why he needs to modify the code in tram.  Other than Mervyn wants it that way.

Sliss said:

Dress undress functionality in PvM is a fun, engaging mechanic that gives players something extra to do inside and outside of combat. Apart from letting players kill mobs a little faster (oh no - less grind!) it has no downsides. Nerfing it in EC to please a couple of vocal players will accomplish nothing but decrease player engagement.

Well according to Pawain, these changes will have zero impact on pvm in tram, so I don't think you have anything to worry about

cobb said:

Sliss said:

Dress undress functionality in PvM is a fun, engaging mechanic that gives players something extra to do inside and outside of combat. Apart from letting players kill mobs a little faster (oh no - less grind!) it has no downsides. Nerfing it in EC to please a couple of vocal players will accomplish nothing but decrease player engagement.

Well according to Pawain, these changes will have zero impact on pvm in tram, so I don't think you have anything to worry about

THEN WHY DO IT?!!   Keep it in Fel.

And YOU can not come up with a reason it needs to be done in Tram. 

A total waste of Developers time.  We would rather have a mannequin that shows the stats of the armor.

Everyone here that is not a developer knows that this is a game troll by Mervyn.  He wants a fel only shard so bad that he thinks running players out of tram will get him what he wants.

I will give him this opportunity to deny this.  The only thing this change will do is cause annoyance, that is his goal.

Pawain said:

cobb said:

Sliss said:

Dress undress functionality in PvM is a fun, engaging mechanic that gives players something extra to do inside and outside of combat. Apart from letting players kill mobs a little faster (oh no - less grind!) it has no downsides. Nerfing it in EC to please a couple of vocal players will accomplish nothing but decrease player engagement.

Well according to Pawain, these changes will have zero impact on pvm in tram, so I don't think you have anything to worry about

THEN WHY DO IT?!!   Keep it in Fel.

And YOU can not come up with a reason it needs to be done in Tram. 

A total waste of Developers time.  We would rather have a mannequin that shows the stats of the armor.

Everyone here that is not a developer knows that this is a game troll by Mervyn.  He wants a fel only shard so bad that he thinks running players out of tram will get him what he wants.

I will give him this opportunity to deny this.  The only thing this change will do is cause annoyance, that is his goal.

if it doesn't affect your gameplay at all, why even complain?

also please stay topical sir

This is the topic.  Mervyn is the one who wrote hundreds of emails to the developers to put a delay on the EC dress/undress macro so he would win more battles in Fel.

You want players not to be able to switch to a Luck suit before a Mob dies. This change does not fix that.

Why waste coding time to fix nothing?

no the topic is dress/undress. this thread is not about mervyn. 

can the mods do something about this rampant derailing of this thread?

Asking you 2 to tell us why this change is needed in Tram is not derailing the thread.  Just because neither of you can come up with a reason is not derailing a thread.


Im waiting on WHY is this change needed in Tram? 

These two questions should be answered in a positive way before changes are made to the code:

How will this make the game better.
Will this bring new or returning players to the game?

How about YOU answer those two question about the topic of Dress/undress?

Pawain said:

Asking you 2 to tell us why this change is needed in Tram is not derailing the thread.  Just because neither of you can come up with a reason is not derailing a thread.


Im waiting on WHY is this change needed in Tram? 

These two questions should be answered in a positive way before changes are made to the code:

How will this make the game better.
Will this bring new or returning players to the game?

How about YOU answer those two question about the topic of Dress/undress?

I think we should delete Trammel to fix this.

It will get rid of the whining entitled players such as yourself, and bring back all the great players who left because of whining tossers.

I notice how when you whine about castles and tamers and suchlike all day, it's all ok, we leave you to it, but you can't give the same respect and courtesy with an actual game balance fix that is required, and you sense it isn't all about you?

Get out of this thread, you should be banned for trolling.

Pawain I’ll answer your question, the issue is not facet specific. Almost every game mechanic can be bypassed using insta dress swap. Just because it is used against mobs, doesn’t make it okay. No the mobs don’t care, they don’t complain but it makes the game less challenging. People may not realise it but when they’re not challenged, they got bored. 

It was never intended for people to be able to insta swap to a luck suit for the last hit on a mob to achieve the best loot, it negates the whole value of the property.

Having 2 different game mechanics for 2 facets is a) more complicated, b) unnecessary c) probably more difficult to do.

Even if it were easier to just add the delay in fel, it would not be in keeping with all other intended game mechanics to allow insta suit swapping in tram. You’re not supposed to get the benefit of 55 LMC AND be able to meditate after, that is why the armour is NON MEDIBLE etc etc etc for all the other 100 game mechanics that get bypassed.

Also, neither yourself, @jaytin, nor @Parnoc have bothered to describe despite being asked politely how you’re currently using insta suit swap in trammel and how the change will affect you. 

Also, I have never emailed any party nor had private discussion with any developer on this particular issue and have voiced my opinions openly via the forums using logic and reason, I suggest you do the same.

Mervyn said:

It was never intended for people to be able to insta swap to a luck suit for the last hit on a mob to achieve the best loot, it negates the whole value of the property.

... it would not be in keeping with all other intended game mechanics to allow insta suit swapping in tram. You’re not supposed to get the benefit of 55 LMC AND be able to meditate after, that is why the armour is NON MEDIBLE etc etc etc for all the other 100 game mechanics that get bypassed.

Cookie said:

Balance, is also important.

Some questions that have to be asked, and answered, are how do you envision the game be played? Is multiple suit swapping a thing, is it considered part of the gameplay, or an exploit? How does it feel to play the game in this style ? Skett's question was valid, is the real answer to fix the Suits and Armour, so this is not a gameplay requirement? Sometimes - I'd like to know a bit more about the Vision of the Developers behind their logic - how they see or feel the game should be played, and what they are trying to achieve.

Mervyn - your point here, I completely agree with.

It's why I asked the question I asked in my post.

The Developers have gone to great care to design certain styles of suits, and now it can now all be negated almost instantly. So back to my question, before we even go any further re Balancing the two clients out, what is the Vision for the game itself? Is this in fact an Exploit?

Do the suits themselves need fixing? Does one of the clients in fact need fixing?

Is making both clients exactly the same, actually the answer?

I really doubt when they made EC, they expected this result in terms of gameplay - to negate their entire concept of suit design? Or are they ok with this? Is this now an acceptable style of play?

Pawain said:

THEN WHY DO IT?!!   Keep it in Fel.

And YOU can not come up with a reason it needs to be done in Tram. 

A total waste of Developers time.  We would rather have a mannequin that shows the stats of the armor.

Everyone here that is not a developer knows that this is a game troll by Mervyn.  He wants a fel only shard so bad that he thinks running players out of tram will get him what he wants.

I will give him this opportunity to deny this.  The only thing this change will do is cause annoyance, that is his goal.

On topic, it could actually be an increase in developer time to make it facet specific.  Can I ask why you are so adamant against changing it?  What do you use it for that you need it to be this big a deal?

Cookie, I don’t think the suits need fixing at all, yes I think it was an exploit, you design a suit with certain mods you want, you wear the suit. You wanna swap suits fine, first take off your current suit, is that really so unreasonable and crazy?

they put in an undress macro into the EC for a reason but this bug made it obsolete. This would be a total total non issue if they fixed it on the first ever EC client release hot fix but people have been abusing it for so long, the change has become an issue for a couple of people. 

I don’t want to go off topic but much like insta pet logging, we didn’t used to have this, but then it was introduced and everyone has gotten used to abusing it for so long and if they changed it the designated safe space would be completely booked out. 

Cookie said:

I think we should delete Trammel to fix this.

It will get rid of the whining entitled players such as yourself, and bring back all the great players who left because of whining tossers.

I notice how when you whine about castles and tamers and suchlike all day, it's all ok, we leave you to it, but you can't give the same respect and courtesy with an actual game balance fix that is required, and you sense it isn't all about you?

Oh right, the great mistake of Trammel. Watch the recent postmortem where the original devs called open world PvP one of their greatest mistakes that lost UO tons of players, and one they tried to fix 7 times.

As far as "whining" about castles and such - there is a tiny difference. PvP "whines" inevitably end up negatively affecting PvM. Given rejection of @Pawain's suggestion to limit this "balancing" to Fel, it seems that negative effect on PvM is very much the goal.

Sliss said:

 it seems that negative effect on PvM is very much the goal.

*positive impact

Xare said:

Pawain said:

THEN WHY DO IT?!!   Keep it in Fel.

And YOU can not come up with a reason it needs to be done in Tram. 

A total waste of Developers time.  We would rather have a mannequin that shows the stats of the armor.

Everyone here that is not a developer knows that this is a game troll by Mervyn.  He wants a fel only shard so bad that he thinks running players out of tram will get him what he wants.

I will give him this opportunity to deny this.  The only thing this change will do is cause annoyance, that is his goal.

On topic, it could actually be an increase in developer time to make it facet specific.  Can I ask why you are so adamant against changing it?  What do you use it for that you need it to be this big a deal?

Will it bring players to Ultima Online or make players play longer?

It has worked the way it works for years. It clearly is not an issue in Tram.

I am for things that make the game grow and more fun. This will do neither. Response?

of course it will help bring players back and make players play longer.  That is what happens when you promote fair gameplay. 

Mervyn said:

It was never intended for people to be able to insta swap to a luck suit for the last hit on a mob to achieve the best loot, it negates the whole value of the property.

You are so wrong, I remember reading a thread about luck and it was asked when luck was applied and @Kyronix said it was at the time of the kill and even said that you could swap into a luck suit just prior to the kill and it would still count.  So back then they knew it.  You sir are just whining because the spawners are doing this when you try to attack them and steal the spawn.  You come up with all this LA LA LA bs when if you just told the truth you might get a better reaction.  This was all about suit swapping at champ spawns and PvP. 

I too will be interested to know if the delay still occurs with third party programs, I imagine and hope it would. 

Bilbo trust me, I have no personal interest other than the improvement of the game. Killing spawners has never been difficult, in fact I once made a thread saying that PvM damage caps should be the same as PvP damage caps so the spawner’s PvM suits will be the same as a PvP suit to give them more of a chance to defend themselves against people like me, however the idea was shot down by people like you. 

Pawain said:

Will it bring players to Ultima Online or make players play longer?

It has worked the way it works for years. It clearly is not an issue in Tram.

I am for things that make the game grow and more fun. This will do neither. Response?

Mariah said:

In blaming this proposed change on a particular player 

Stop the blame game and start giving actual reasons and examples of how this would adversely affect your gameplay.

I’m not sure “blame” is the right word, you don’t “blame” someone for a bug fix, “credit” is the correct word to use. Bug fixed are ALWAYS a positive thing. 

Nobody is unhappy about the addition to the classic client. It’s the change to the EC that I think stops the bug that you’re able to dress without undressing which is the hot topic. From what Kyronix described the macro loop, having to undress is new. As what people were doing were dressing a whole suit without undressing first. And this was a bug, because why else would there be a macro to unequip/undress in EC.

There are 2 things that are unclear.

1 we don’t know for sure if you do need to unequip an item.

2 we don’t know if you have to unequip a weapon before equipping a new one, (if not using previous weapon macro)

Mervyn. Please refer to the title of the thread. This is about dress/undress. Do not confuse the issue.

I’m not confusing anything.

nobody is upset about adding dress to CC.

The “Arm” and “equip” macro on EC IS the dress macro,

they’re not 2 different macros, it’s all the same macro. And Kyronix says the macro loop includes “undress” which would be new. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

I don't see why this is an issue at all. make CC the same as EC. same game so why shouldnt it be the same.  UOA is very slow redressing and undressing. If the EC guys are complaining about EZUO and Razor and or any other 3rd party programs, too bad.. they are ILLEGAL to use to begin with. even with that being said, if it takes a 3rd party program to achieve what EC can do to make it even, then quit crying.. good grief people it's a game, not reality. 

Church said:

I don't see why this is an issue at all. make CC the same as EC. same game so why shouldnt it be the same.  UOA is very slow redressing and undressing. If the EC guys are complaining about EZUO and Razor and or any other 3rd party programs, too bad.. they are ILLEGAL to use to begin with. even with that being said, if it takes a 3rd party program to achieve what EC can do to make it even, then quit crying.. good grief people it's a game, not reality. 

The CC is incapable of doing exactly the way the EC does it, hence this proposal.

To answer the question.  The code is already in place.  To add a 1 second delay to the code will mean they have to recode the EC.

If the CC has an inherent one second delay than change that code instead or leave the EC alone.
If the CC has to have the 1 second delay then so be it. 

Doesn't UO assist have no delay already?  Why can they do it?

There are many things in the game that are specific to Trammel and Fel.  Lets keep going in that direction.

Change this in Fel ruleset.  Leave CC as is.

Lmao. Uo assist doesn't have instant armor swapping.

Pawain said:

To answer the question.  The code is already in place.  To add a 1 second delay to the code will mean they have to recode the EC.

If the CC has an inherent one second delay than change that code instead or leave the EC alone.
If the CC has to have the 1 second delay then so be it. 

Doesn't UO assist have no delay already?  Why can they do it?

There are many things in the game that are specific to Trammel and Fel.  Lets keep going in that direction.

Change this in Fel ruleset.  Leave CC as is.

Make sure you can swap weaps instantly even in cc.  Cc users have bypassed the item swap delay by casting create food or the like to swap weaps faster.  Unfortunately that doesn't work well for a spell channeling weapon.  

I see no problems in allowing instant swaps of weapons.  The last weap macro is t that great because when you get disarmed it's all reset.  

Even when you use create food to disarm in CC, you still have to disarm to change weap (if not using equip last weap macro which does indeed mess up when you get disarmed) 
I would welcome the need to have to disarm before arm, it just makes sense all across the board. What’s the point in having different weapons doing different specials if you can just switch to any weapon to do any special willy nilly?

God I need more popcorn....

 FinleyGrant said:

God I need more popcorn....

I blame Kyronix, he is on a different level...

I do the odd controversial post, he starts entire thread wars (with full moderator backing...!!! Just imagine what I could do with that.... ). 😂

But seriously to the Devs, thanks for looking at this, I do think it's needed, and you seem to be on an ok track. You seem to have gone for a middle ground.

And while I'm at it, thanks for the Halloween content that kicked off fully today, I've actually enjoyed a lot of this content, there is a lot there for all sorts of players. ❤️  

Bleak said:

Maximus_Neximus said:

Xare said:

Kyronix said:

Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress -> delay at 1s per item -> Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress

Can I (we) get some clarification on this?  After rereading this, I'm interpreting this as if a player just as a simple dress macro for after they die, it would equip everything instantly.  If used in a macro that switches gear, it would include a delay based on the number of items after the dress before it was undressed.

You hit your undress macro and it will have a 1s delay until you're undressed. You hit dress and you have a delay of 1s per item until you're fully dressed.

This is incorrect. You hit your undress macro which results in you becoming undressed then a 1 second delay which is the same as production. You hit the dress macro which results in all of your items being equipped then a 1 second delay per item before your next undress action.

So you definitely do have to undress first? Cos currently on EC, there is no requirement to undress first. And does this extend to arming weapons? as arming weapons also is the same macro as dress on EC.

OMG You amaze me Mervyn that it is totally more than your brain can comprehend that the program removes (undresses) and than replaces (dresses) faster than you can see it so to you it never happened.

Kyronix said:

Greetings,

As many of you have read in our last newsletter, the Classic Client is slated for an update which will allow access to an Undress/Dress macro similar to the current functionality in the Enhanced Client.  We had slated this change for 102, however, due to the nature of this change we would have to bypass our normal release scheme of TC->Origin etc->World Wide which would not allow a feedback period before this feature was released worldwide via server and both clients.  Before we proceed with this change, we would like to garner feedback.  

Currently the undress/dress macro allows for a one second delay between each macro action.  With the addition of this ability in the CC, there would be an increased delay after the redress macro dependent on the number of items attempting to be reequipped.  This is to increase parity between the functionality between both clients as well as maintain balance.  This delay is in line with the current action-use delays you normally experience in the world.

To be clear, the flow of the macro, in both clients, would look like this:

Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress -> delay at 1s per item -> Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress

We expect there will be passionate opinions on both sides, so we are encouraging you to have another look at the posting guidelines before you reply.  Remember there's another human behind the keyboard and to keep things respectful.  We look forward to your feedback.

Undress -> 1s delay -> Full Dress -> 2min Cooldown

Switching suits adds a new dimension to PvP and PvM alike. Also Since the inclusion of the easy +skill jewls I would also consider bumping HP cap(not str) to 170 and skill cap to 755(after some extensive testing)

DISCLAIMER!!
just make sure it doesn’t impede cycling weapons.

Bilbo, in EC, there is an action to undress/unequip, which if used, takes 1 second. Currently this action is obsolete as when you dress, you have no requirement to add this action to a dress macro. However the proposed new macro reads that you do now have to add this action to the macro. I hope this helps.

And yet you still rant that there is no undress so it must pure magic to you I guess.

Mervyn said:

Even when you use create food to disarm in CC, you still have to disarm to change weap (if not using equip last weap macro which does indeed mess up when you get disarmed) 
I would welcome the need to have to disarm before arm, it just makes sense all across the board. What’s the point in having different weapons doing different specials if you can just switch to any weapon to do any special willy nilly?

No.  You create macros that create food-arm weapon.  So that bypasses the period of time where you are open handed.  Having an open hand even for a second is a lifetime.

So what’s stopping you cast create food on EC to bypass the timer?

No one had complained about it...
strange how everyone in my circle of friends complains about it for years and years. 

For every 1 comment on the forums I get about trolling I receive a dozen fan mail and comments of support via icq etc. It doesn’t bother me at all. 

Please drop the rhetoric and give actual examples of how this change would adversely affect your game play.

Arnie QuickPalm has just formed the NWA naked wrestling association all this dress and undress nonsense would dramatically impact every bout , thus cutting into Arnie's profits do we need to even discuss further???

As a PvMer correct me if I am wrong but I get 1 swap with a 1 sec delay and I am ready to go but if I swap back to suit 1 or to suit 3 I get a 1 sec delay per piece that is being swapped which is what 15 sec max, now unless I am doing this in Fel at a spawn I really do not see this affecting me one bit but in Fel as a PvMer trying to get back into a fighting suit because of a raid/PK would be sudden death.
Now as a PvPer/PKer depending on what I am fighting I should be ok but if I need to quick swap to a different suit because of a different threat I am still good but if I need to swap back because of threat #1 came at me again I can not return to the suit quickly and could be sudden death for me.  I could see groups (2 or more) of PvMers/PvPers/PKers setting up different threat types to take advantage of this against the solo PvPer/PKer.

Questions
How long does this condition last, is there a timer on it.
Will we get a icon to tell us we are under this undress/dress timer rule

Bilbo said:

As a PvMer correct me if I am wrong but I get 1 swap with a 1 sec delay and I am ready to go but if I swap back to suit 1 or to suit 3 I get a 1 sec delay per piece that is being swapped which is what 15 sec max, now unless I am doing this in Fel at a spawn I really do not see this affecting me one bit but in Fel as a PvMer trying to get back into a fighting suit because of a raid/PK would be sudden death.
Now as a PvPer/PKer depending on what I am fighting I should be ok but if I need to quick swap to a different suit because of a different threat I am still good but if I need to swap back because of threat #1 came at me again I can not return to the suit quickly and could be sudden death for me.  I could see groups (2 or more) of PvMers/PvPers/PKers setting up different threat types to take advantage of this against the solo PvPer/PKer.

Questions
How long does this condition last, is there a timer on it.
Will we get a icon to tell us we are under this undress/dress timer rule

Lol. This is a perfectly good post by you, but I am struggling to picture it in my head to give any sort of decent response. This is my issue with much of this thread.

I wish there was a "Like" function on these forums - please fix that for us Devs. I really liked Ozzy's post just above, and have to go to the effort of posting, when I could have just registered a "Like".

There seems to be a lot of confusion as Ozzy says, a lot of rhetoric as Mariah says, a lot of players defending pre-conceived notions, and as I've said, I'm struggling to picture it, to give a proper response.

I think as Ozzy said, maybe get it into Test, so players can see and feel it.

@Cookie ; I think you missed this part of Kyronix's post:

due to the nature of this change we would have to bypass our normal release scheme of TC->Origin etc->World Wide which would not allow a feedback period before this feature was released worldwide via server and both clients. 

I think that means it's a client patch thing. 

I can't understand how this is the hottest topic of the day.

 Petra_Fyde said:

@ Cookie  I think you missed this part of Kyronix's post:

due to the nature of this change we would have to bypass our normal release scheme of TC->Origin etc->World Wide which would not allow a feedback period before this feature was released worldwide via server and both clients. 

I think that means it's a client patch thing. 

Yep, tiredness, thank you. 🙂

Ozzy's post is even more pertinent then.

I like how they are willing to balance both clients in this.  My only question is if it goes straight through, how do you know there wont be issues if its not tested.   Is it possible to guarantee there would be no way to bypass the timer/cooldown.  People are already taking advantage of other things to bypass timers which can be a major concern when it comes to something like this.  How ever I don't think its all that game changing to swap suits anyway.  There are many other problems that I think should be fixed first.

The irony in this thread is that not one person has provided an example of how this will adversely affect their game play.

If this game has become so complicated/complex. If it was made less complicated/complex maybe old and new players would start to play unfortunately this team seems obsessed with driving players away with their overly thought out game mechanics and requirements to do the simplest or task. The reason I feel suit swapping suits during battle is an not right or even an exploit is because if you have to have SO many different suits/ items just to fight/ compete then maybe we should make some balance changes to armor/ game design. Luck needs to be fixed, making it so you have to have very high luck on a suit just to have a small chance at a drop worth keeping is a complete pita. 

im not looking for an easy button just a lot less pain in the a$$ steps required to do the most basic things. 

Just go and make a cannon and then load it, you will get the point. 

This is game is nothing but a boring grind, what happen to fun and reward. 

totally for usable dress-macros in CC, please do it!! i don't care about whatever EC but re-dressing after death in CC just sucks the way it is, since 20 years! please please just do it!

Bleak said:

Petra_Fyde said:

So, if I'm understanding right. You're wearing suit 1 - you swap to suit 2. 1 second to undress, 1 second to dress - and the big delay only comes in if you then decide to switch again, either to a 3rd suit or back to suit 1? 

Correct

I re-read the thread and I may have missed it. But what is the time required for there to not be a delay to switch again?

Why making it so complicated? 1 switch 5 min cooldown. Job done.

Exclude weapons or in general stuff you have in hand. 

Switching suits Is a nice thing to help people who cannot spend much to be still able to take the advantage of luck towards the loot without making an insane luck suit which is good enough to actually fight.

Kyronix said:

Greetings,

As many of you have read in our last newsletter, the Classic Client is slated for an update which will allow access to an Undress/Dress macro similar to the current functionality in the Enhanced Client.  We had slated this change for 102, however, due to the nature of this change we would have to bypass our normal release scheme of TC->Origin etc->World Wide which would not allow a feedback period before this feature was released worldwide via server and both clients.  Before we proceed with this change, we would like to garner feedback.  

Currently the undress/dress macro allows for a one second delay between each macro action.  With the addition of this ability in the CC, there would be an increased delay after the redress macro dependent on the number of items attempting to be reequipped.  This is to increase parity between the functionality between both clients as well as maintain balance.  This delay is in line with the current action-use delays you normally experience in the world.

To be clear, the flow of the macro, in both clients, would look like this:

Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress -> delay at 1s per item -> Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress

We expect there will be passionate opinions on both sides, so we are encouraging you to have another look at the posting guidelines before you reply.  Remember there's another human behind the keyboard and to keep things respectful.  We look forward to your feedback.

We have decided to allow testing of the delay change on TC1 using the Enhanced Client only. This change is now available on TC1. We look forward to your feedback.

But clicking a corpse gives you insta-dress in CC...why the delay?

edit: never mind, seems I misunderstood.. the delay is in between dress/undressing..

pretty sure you will still be able to double click your corpse to insta-dress

Kyronix said:

To be clear, the flow of the macro, in both clients, would look like this:

Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress -> delay at 1s per item -> Undress -> 1s delay -> Dress

This hasn’t been released as of the latest update to TC1.  

Edit: See Bleak's post above

Bleak said: We have decided to allow testing of the delay change on TC1 using the Enhanced Client only. This change is now available on TC1. 

You go talk to your friends talk to my friends talk to me

Kyronix said:

This hasn’t been released as of the latest update to TC1.  

Mervyn said:

This doesn't really help anyone or change anything. You can still insta suit switch in pvp from a non medible suit to a medable suit, (obtain mana) and switch back again. You can also still just switch to a luck suit to do the last hit on a creature. There's just a small delay on being able to switch back.. which won't be an issue as the creature will then be dead.

Sounds like it is working as intended.  Like I said why add any delay?

Deleted

Bleak said:You hit your undress macro which results in you becoming undressed then a 1 second delay which is the same as production. You hit the dress macro which results in all of your items being equipped then a 1 second delay per item before your next undress action.

No undress required still, so not working

See video

But the issue was not about multiple switches in a short period of time, the issue was about insta suit switching, the macro flow was laid out to include UNDRESS, If they just rolled out this “change” without mentioning it, nobody would even have noticed it, ever.

There is nothing to test on TC, there is no change. You’re supposed to have to undress a piece before dress. It’s not working.

The EC IS LAGGY AS HECK omg that was painful...and even though I hate to agree with Merv here   I KID!  He is correct....now there is a 2 second delay in switching from suit 2 back to suit 1, but going from suit 1 to suit 2 is instantaneous...I get the "You must wait to perform another action" message when I try to go from 2 to 1, but once I am wearing 1 I can insta-switch to 2....

So at least for me, unless it's the lag, I am getting this:

Suit 1 > Suit 2 is Instant....2 second delay....Suit 2 > Suit 1...NO DELAY..Suit 1 > Suit 2

So basically I think what Merv wants here is to actually have your character completely naked before re-dressing, which would make sense...the UOA macro I use puts one piece on at a time, not all at once.

But if the CC macro works exactly the same way, when it's added - is there still a problem?
What macro is everyone using?  Are you using the 'undress' before the 'dress'?  or just using an equip macro alone?  If using an equip macro alone should you get a 'you are already wearing' type message? 

You should indeed get a message “you are already wearing...” (or it just fail) however you don’t (see video) it still just insta switches. I used the equip item macro only without using unequip. So the unequip action is still obsolete. If they implement this on CC also, it would make a total mockery of the game. 

I think possibly the devs didn’t realised the equip macro worked like this (bypassing unequip). That may explain why it has worked this way since release of EC. 

No not needing unequip first was not an error it was a greatly appreciated improvement added much later to EC macro system. It made the macro system much easer to use and less likely fail or glitch. If you tell a macro to put item A into slot B why should you have to tell the program to empty slot B first?

As on TC the change is not acceptable.
If you are not watching closely you will not likely see that your equip command didn't work. Not good at any time let alone in combat.

More importantly I haven't seen any argument justifying the need for hobbling EC. In PVP you have been dealing with this for years and if it was that big a problem why haven't you switched to EC long ago? If you want to limit the EC change to Fel rule set I won't like it but ok. As for the "Luck" issue in PVM I suggest you read http://www.uoguide.com/Luck and tell me were they are wrong or how it adversely effects you.

The two clients are NOT equal hence people choosing to use one or the other. Pick one and stop trying to make the one I chose worse.

Tim said:

No not needing unequip first was not an error it was a greatly appreciated improvement added much later to EC macro system. It made the macro system much easer to use and less likely fail or glitch. If you tell a macro to put item A into slot B why should you have to tell the program to empty slot B first?

As on TC the change is not acceptable.
If you are not watching closely you will not likely see that your equip command didn't work. Not good at any time let alone in combat.

More importantly I haven't seen any argument justifying the need for hobbling EC. In PVP you have been dealing with this for years and if it was that big a problem why haven't you switched to EC long ago? If you want to limit the EC change to Fel rule set I won't like it but ok. As for the "Luck" issue in PVM I suggest you read http://www.uoguide.com/Luck and tell me were they are wrong or how it adversely effects you.

The two clients are NOT equal hence people choosing to use one or the other. Pick one and stop trying to make the one I chose worse.

I agree absolutely and totally!!

Bleak said:

Petra_Fyde said:

So, if I'm understanding right. You're wearing suit 1 - you swap to suit 2. 1 second to undress, 1 second to dress - and the big delay only comes in if you then decide to switch again, either to a 3rd suit or back to suit 1? 

Correct

From reading this , it is supposed to take 2 seconds to swap suits the first time. 1 sec to undress +  1 second to dress  adds up to 2 seconds.  It is not supposed to be instant.

And you ‘Oomies callin duh Orcs savedjes. 

You guys reading what you type before you hit enter here? There’s a person on the other side of those posts. They’re entitled to an opinion, same as you. 

Personally, I think the devs should just spend a bit more time in the EC that will enable CC sprites at the toggle of a switch. Then us EC players will stop getting called speed hackers by CC players who don’t get it because they’re too concerned about the pixels. Then they can stop supporting the CC all together by allowing players to just click “Classic Client Mode” as an option. 

Who knows what the real issue is though, maybe there’s a lot of spaghetti code built into the game preventing that from being a thing.

Either way, I appreciate the hell out of all the devs doing work on this. You guys do you, we’re the players, we should adapt and grow with the game you are cultivating. 

Hoowah!

Intended or not. Not having to unequip before equip in a macro is how it should be. To say otherwise is like saying if I wished to change a word on this post rather then just highlighting it and typing the new word I should be made to delete each letter of the first then enter the new word. 

Macros only exist to make life easier not more complicated. Like a 1 step macro rather then one with 20. (unequip then equip for 10 items 1 at a time)

All of which is beside the point.

The stated reason for the change in EC is to create parity with a new feature in CC. If that justifies making EC player's game less enjoyable, then the equip action should have been removed from EC years ago.

What is missing is a GAME design issue that this change is intended to fix. 

@Kyronix could you please post what game behaviour/exploit you are trying to correct or prevent. It would save a lot of wasted posts and probably an awful lot of warnings about rules of conduct. I can think of a few it might be, but I can also think of ways around your fix to get the same results.
If the only issue is PVP then make it a Fel rule set only fix.

As I see it after having tried it on TS1 your fix is just annoying for no apparent reason. 

Some posts have been removed or edited. Please do not include personal attacks in your posts.

Yes the equip action should’ve been corrected years ago, just because people have been complaining about it for years and it wasn’t changed, doesn’t mean it’s working. 

It is a game, you’re not supposed to be able to perform actions instantly, it makes the game bad. Let us say the issue was casting spells and say EC casted spells instantly, no delay. You would want to keep this feature and add it to CC cos it’s more efficient? And no it’s not a PvP exclusive issue.
People have been been complaining about phantom mobs on EC since its release. Are we to just say phantom mobs is now a feature? 

Kyronix has made clear the intended macro flow in the OP. Which includes undress. I’m repeating now. This debate has been had and resulted in the macro flow described in the OP however for some reason its not working that way on Test Centre.. 
and now you’re saying leave it broken... 

For the undress delay can we have an option for a tantalizing delay.

False Equivalence casting spells is not equivalent to getting dressed. Casting spells clearly affect game play the other is what we are debating.(Long rant probably edited out by moderator so I won't bother)

Once again I ask 

How does my being able to instant dress adversely affect the game or another player?
Why make a already complicated game more complicated for existing and new players?

The only argument I've seen here for the change is "they can do it and we can't" To me thats not good enough.

PS I've been an active player since 2000

Tim said:

The only argument I've seen here for the change is "they can do it and we can't" To me thats not good enough.

Actually that is a big deal. Maybe the game being fair and equal for all is not something that is important to you. But for many others, fair gameplay is very important and likely to chase away players without it.

Pawain said:

Mervyn said:

This doesn't really help anyone or change anything. You can still insta suit switch in pvp from a non medible suit to a medable suit, (obtain mana) and switch back again. You can also still just switch to a luck suit to do the last hit on a creature. There's just a small delay on being able to switch back.. which won't be an issue as the creature will then be dead.

Sounds like it is working as intended.  Like I said why add any delay?

According to Bleak, the initial suit swap takes 2 seconds. So no, it is not working as intended

For some reason on TC it is instant.  According to the devs flow chart which states it will take 1 second to undress and 1 seconds to dress, it should take a minimum of 2 seconds to swap suits the very first time.

cobb said:

Tim said:

The only argument I've seen here for the change is "they can do it and we can't" To me thats not good enough.

Actually that is a big deal. Maybe the game being fair and equal for all is not something that is important to you. But for many others, fair gameplay is very important and likely to chase away players without it.

It is fair and equal. You can chose to use CC or EC each has advantages and disadvantages YOUR choice. I'm not advocating that circle of transparency in CC be reduced to EC levels or they introduce "Ghost Mods" or.... sorry can't think of another advantage to CC 

Once again I politely and sincerely ask how does someone in EC doing an instant change affect you?

Personally I am of the opinion that 2 seconds is too short for the initial swap. That is barely any setback at all and probably barely noticeable. I would recommend doubling the initial delay

I have not really walked around with 2 full sets of gear (or more) ever, I carry other weapons, spell books, even totems with like necro and such to get back into wraith form easier after an untimely floor munching session, and other stuff.. but this thread if NOTHING else, has inspired me to walk around with various full suits in my bag. Hope whatever is getting debated comes to a satisfying resolution for all parties involved. Hope we can get more smiles and happy thoughts flowing.

jaytin said:

Honestly why do they still listen to this guy, he is making everyone's life miserable and the Dev team are allowing it! Every time a minority decreases the enjoyment of the majority you are going to start losing subs, please don't do this, it's a trend that has become all too apparent in the last couple of years and it has to stop. I don't want to be forced to play Mervyn Online.

I second this.

This change will only make my gameplay more tedious. But it's hardly worth getting upset about it. @Bleak @Kyronix just love to make the game more and more tedious for no reasons 🙁

There is already a huge disadvantage to swapping suits: For a moment you are loosing all your bonus stats from gear and have to regen it back.

Try swapping a +8 stam peice by another +8 stam piece. Your wont keep those +8 stam. You will have to regen it back.

Swapping full suits in PvP is a myth. It does not work in practice, no matter how bitter Mervin is about this feature used in PvM.

Someone please come up with a video of swapping full suits mid combat and proof me wrong!

It also is a fairly good gold sink when people carry more than only one insured suit.

That delay will fix nothing but only make the game more tedious. It worked perfect for many years now, until Mervin decided to go on a crusade. And the developers even listen. I am having a hrad time renewing my accounts when everytime the game only gets more and more tedious. Great job @Kyronix and @Bleak

A better idea to go forward: 

Add suit switching to the CC as it is in the EC. Simple. The delay does not solve any problem.

Yeah, quite a commotion here.  Have Not seen this much talking and pointing since I was undressing at the...well, never mind.  

I think people are under the impression that I have some sort of vested interest or alterior motive.( I don’t care if someone switches suit, means I get more insurance from them when they die as they’re carrying 2.)

I post about bugs and issues that people complain to me about. And I do so for the benefit of the game. 

More clean up on this thread. If your post was removed, it was not topical or it was not within the bounds of the Terms of Service.

My problem with this change is that other than "they can do it but we can't" nobody has come up with a valid reason for doing it. The reasons that have been put forward don't stand up. If someone still thinks they are valid please post a list and I will answer them item by item. 

The only one I've seen with any validity at all is the luck suit change. That is a minor advantage that doesn't adversely effect anyone else and to my mind way to much work for little return (Just carry a 10th anniversary sculpture).

The following is not intended as an attack but trying to save the moderators from having to keep rapping knuckles.
   
If "you post about bugs and issues that people complain" to you about you are saying that you have thought about it and looked into it and agree with them. If you are not endorsing their complaint simply tell them how to go about doing it themselves. Other wise we end up with "its a problem that need to be fixed but I'm not sure why"

Opps last post slightly off topic I'm of course referring to the change to the EC client. At this time I have no comment on additions to CC as I don't use it and don't see how any change would affect me.

I have seen this used in pvp on atlantic.  Not full suit changes but people swapping headgear and jewelry to go from melee bush parry to archer in a instant.  Swapping captn john hat and jewels to hunters headdress and jewels.  It makes a big difference when you can get +45-+60 skills per jewel.

Tim, yes I do indeed endorse the fix, while it impacts me negatively as I will receive less gold from insurance from killing other players. I too pvm and would find it handy to be able to insta switch to a luck suit on my tamer, however I do understand that it is better for the game to have this issue fixed. I’m always willing to take one for the team. I don’t care about myself. 

What a Saint!

*rigs for silent running to stay outta trouble*

The_Higgs_1 said:

I have seen this used in pvp on atlantic.  Not full suit changes but people swapping headgear and jewelry to go from melee bush parry to archer in a instant.  Swapping captn john hat and jewels to hunters headdress and jewels.  It makes a big difference when you can get +45-+60 skills per jewel.

This makes me think the proposed delay is too short. Not the initial swap (which definitely should not be instant) but swapping suits the 2nd time. 

By switching only 3 pieces they can do this. There is 1 sec delay per item, so the "big" delay would be only 3 seconds. Every 3 seconds they can go from being a bush parry melee to an archer.

I was actually kind of glad UO didn't have armor swapping for whatever reason, because in modern games say Final Fantasy XI (not real modern but it's been trying to adapt) gear blinking is like how the game is played, you have a weapon skill set (or pieces), tp set (whatever you'd probably walk around in normally), and bizarre circumstance set (I call it that, but let's say you want to get the most out of a job specific ability you'd toss on some Flee +15 flippers or whatever). You're constantly instantly switching gear pieces around, and until recent times there was no way to keep people from blinking in and out of existence while they drew aggro and died repeatedly because healers could not heal them. Now there is a "Fixed appearance" thing, you put on your bikini or whatever and turn that feature on and can put your other armor on and still walk around in your pixelated underwear but have the advantage uber stats. To me, I don't like gear flapping constantly, it's banal, and just pushes my imagination to the extremes, because 1 you're in a heated battle.. totally not making sense to pull off a plate mail tunic and slide into a leather one while decapitating a dragon simultaneously to get a little more mana regen or whatever. 2. I'm pretty sure the designers of the game didn't set out initially with the idea that gear flipping would be a staple of their mmo, regardless of how the players migrated to this ideology or not, they did begin to develop for this behavior instead of just making, well, good well rounded gear. 3. I think if I have to go to a dungeon or whatever and bring 2-3 suits to "compete" I'll just not bother and find something else to do, part of the reason I'll never bother with FFXI again.

 That being said, I'm inspired to carry a luck get up to get the last couple of strikes on things because of this thread. Also, I submit the idea for a blacksmith/tinkering item called a tinfoil hat. I'll totally macro that into whatever my luck suit turns out like.

I have also witnessed insta suit swap in pvp even on a low pvp skill level shard of Europa. I’ve seen a couple of dexxers using elemental damage weapons and insta switching jewels and talisman to have +magery/eval to curse. 

By the way the person I saw do the swap was using CC and a 3rd party program to do the insta swap, which means even if they put this through people already have a work around to insta swap anyway.

Hopefully I'm just flogging a dead horse but I did say I would respond. Most of the examples would not trigger the second change rule so would only be 2 seconds or would not affect another player. ohgr's case being the second type, if thats how he wants to play more power to him. 
The PVP armor swap for skill gains is more problematic but would still not trigger the second change rule unless there is a very long cool down and should be handled by a different fix. 

I had assumed that when they changed vampiric embrace to stop working when the casters skills dropped below the minimum they did the same for all spells, if they haven't they really should. Every time a spell affects the game it should check to see the caster has the required skill not just when cast.

For fighting skills I think a better fix would be to treat equip like a spell. In combat and only in combat the change will take X amount of time like a spell and be disruptable like a spell. Provided that if disrupted no gear is added or removed. This change would make the jump out of the bush and sucker punch crowd happy and give me another reason to stay off Fel.

And once again when I tell a macro to put something into an equipment slot only an ______ would not know I want what is in the slot now to be removed. To me unequip should only mean remove something and leave the slot empty. Don't make me rewrite all my macros and make them much more complicated just assume the unequip command is there. (May have already been dealt with haven't checked TS been too busy designing keeps)

There’s nothing to test on TC, you can currently still insta switch suits, contrary to what was said by the developers, presumably because they didn’t realise that the equip/dress macro works on EC without having to unequip/undress.

Looks like they decided and will put it Live:

In addition to the Publish 103 content being released to TC 1, the following is being released with the latest client patch and will be live on all servers beginning with Japan this evening,

Dress Macro Update

• The action timer after the use of the Dress macro has been increase from 1 second to 1 second per item equipped.

Please translate @Mervyn.  Thanks.

Thank you everyone who participated and provided feedback.