General question about animal training (especially special moves)

After 3 broken pets... I come here with my tail tucked between my legs.

There is one thing that escapes me... we're offered all those nice options, and some combos apparently...on this last one I aimed for this special move which included the training for bleed, paralyse and armor ignore, it said the three were a prerequisite to train it, so here I go trying to add the 3 in, well it stopped after 2, now I'm locked out again of all other options. So not only I'm locked out of the wrestling mastery I was going for, I can't have the combo and now its only using one of all his skills in "lore and knowledge" aka broken. Like it can't even fight a mud golem at 4 slots... that bad broken. If I carry 4 regular untrained one slot pet, the thing dies 5 times faster... this is not supposed to work like this, is it?

Why present the combo to us if its going to break our pet? Seems a bit cruel. We get warnings for everything else... All this time, all this money for scrolls wasted... so my question is: 

What is the limit? Why is it not on taming guides I read, why does everyone tell me they have "broken" pets too and still have not any idea how it works?

I know the "perfect build guides" are there.. but what if we want to try other options?

Right now 100% risk of breaking the pet for me.

is it the number of skills, the number of elements in lore and knowledge?

If at least I'd know the actual limits, I could think differently. It should not be so easy and so common to completely break pets with thousands of hours into them (counting the time/money to get the scrolls). I meet tamers every single day that tell me they've broken multiple some dozens of pet.

And now the power scrolls can't be bought anymore (a simple wrestling powerscroll can go 50 millions now). Was this really thought through?

Such a nice and fun system, and now only the rich can afford it... 

With my best broken pet... I can maybe farm 100k an hour... do you know how many hours this is for one scroll to perhaps get a chance to get a better pet ? to perhaps get a better pet after I sunk everything I had into 2 pets...

It has to make sense for it to remain fun, and not just feel like I should have built a dexxer and kill everything in one-two hit like many players I see passing me by.

I don't mind if I don't have the best pet... but I do mind wasting all this time for an error that could be prevented by better tooltips or clear explanations.

Is there hope for a revamp that could fix those previously broken pets?

Pawain point him to your guides!  Kyronix mend those fences !

I could be wrong but in my experance

When it said prerequisite were required they are already in the choice.
They are just mentioned to explain why that choice requires so many points and the extra skills you get when you hit "train".

You don't actually have to add them before hand.

The choice took one point, its meant to be activated like a mastery and would not activate without the prerequisites that seemed simple enough, the numbers matched 100 on each prerequisites (maybe I glitched or something but it wouldn't work without them). And its not the only combo you can't do... I've tried 3 different ones which are utter failures. And through no fault of my own. The system can limit me on everything, it can cap everything but it won't cap its own skill selection well enough for selections to be valid.

And I've seen so many taming guides... this is why people rely so much on "builds" yet I still meet people everyday who "break" pets while trying something else. Nobody wants to slap the same build on all pets I hope or it makes the whole system irrelevant.

This is supposed to be a fun system and I agree it is nice to have so much freedom with it, I would not say broken if it was only imperfect or lacking because of my skill choice.

When I say broken it is broken... it just won't train something, the skill is not going up or being used at all... or it does for a while then stops, or reverses even. I think the fun part is obscured by that looming doubt that it will simply not work because of the design not giving you proper limits. It just feels unfair and yes ruins the final part where you enjoy your hard labor.

I love the new system btw, its amazing apart from that.

There is a limit to what you can add to a pet.

You may only select a total of Three options, two from the first 3 categories shown here and one from the magical abilities list.  Select in the order shown below, magical ability last.  Keep in mind many pets already have a special ability, which cannot be overwritten. This reduces your choices.

• 1 area effect
• 2 special moves
• 1 special ability
• 1 magical ability

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/animal-taming/animal-training/

You misread.  Piercing gives the pet those abilities, they are not prerequisites.

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/animal-taming/animal-training-abilities/

Pawain said:

There is a limit to what you can add to a pet.

You may only select a total of Three options, two from the first 3 categories shown here and one from the magical abilities list.  Select in the order shown below, magical ability last.  Keep in mind many pets already have a special ability, which cannot be overwritten. This reduces your choices.

• 1 area effect
• 2 special moves
• 1 special ability
• 1 magical ability

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/animal-taming/animal-training/

You misread.  Piercing gives the pet those abilities, they are not prerequisites.

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/animal-taming/animal-training-abilities/

I agree with Mariah, she has done an amazing job with the wiki for pet training. But @Violet ‘s and @Khyro ’s UO-cah is absolutely the best at the finer details. @Pawain certainly has a better understanding at pet training as well. 

@popps

They are weighted.   Moves are less so you can get 2.

You can always put a magic last.

Page is fine.  It's like reading a math textbook. Because it is all math.

Here are some examples of these things on a blank pet.

So I could have chivalry ai and frenzied ww? 

Hmph... no I did not misread Pierce... I was trying to apply it and the prerequisites were in red, why call them prerequisites? and when I pressed arrow it said only one point like magery mastery... and it would not apply, this is why I went to take the prerequisites. I thought since they were part of the combo, that this was why they cost only 100.

I guess I glitched and it would just not apply... happened to me twice before just not working 🙁 just my luck

Regardless of the guides and if people read well, imagine the number of players who still fall prey to it, such a huge "trap" should not be left for players to discover by 500 million worth trial and error each time, because those pets I push that far are those who are worth the money... all other options are blocked when they should be blocked, and its logically understandable... this part is not.

Also I did read UO-Cah and couldn't find a specific part about those calculations? in which document is it explained?

I broke my pet for no reason so sad it was a rare one...

And yes I think Mariah and UO-Cah did amazing jobs... but still some things should be in game because they are in game mechanics made for tamers to have fun, not be ruined and not be able to start again.

Some things should be community, some things need to be programmed in to be clear, and this is the case here imo, in no way I was saying the player documentation was not up to par. 🙂

Grimbeard said:

So I could have chivalry ai and frenzied ww? 

Yes on a Triton or the dragon.  Add Chiv last.

Thanks Pawain for linking the official page. I guess I should have read the official documentation before reading other websites, it got me confused, but I vote for adding this limitation clearly written in game, because as many of you say, can't make players read and I realize not many do when I give them links. An awful lot of people complain about their broken pets, and when I ask them why to avoid it, they are completely clueless while its clearly written on that page, should be a hint another step has to be made to communicate it... before all power scrolls are sunk into this... tactics 120 quadrupled in two weeks and can hit 150 millions now... imagine being a returning player trying to build a warrior... a simple warrior, good luck the broken pets are eating all the scrolls... I think it should be two separate systems it makes no sense. I welcome returning players in my guild and have to tell them, sorry you can't make your build.

Its a game, it should allow everyone to have fun and be competitive, I'm not saying they should be free, but, accessible, possible, within reasonable limits. Again maybe I'm just missing information to understand. 

I don't see it slowing down... so this means I will build no warrior and neither will I have any high level pets, for the foreseeable few next years. And perhaps ever, unless I find a miraculous way to make gold. And I will have to guide my returning players to make build with skills that are not used by pets... which is close to impossible...

Do you see how bad this sounds? great system, lack of foresight on integration imo.

Sorry to say but its breaking the experience of 3 returning vets in my guild right now, they have no hopes so they stopped being active, and most importantly stopped being exited about progress. They cannot even hope for a 120, like ever, as we pull like maybe 100k an hour in hunts, the hardest we can handle. And we won't handle stronger for better loot unless they can advance.

Oh and btw its not just the 120s... my last pets only had 110, and it was barely affordable.

I think it is very important that it be addressed as a whole problem... somehow.

Animal Training is like UO. It is complicated.  I don't know what other sites you were looking at.
But the wiki has all the numbers for the value of each stat on a pet.

There is no easy guide for the taming revamp.  It is multi part and certain mobs help you gain certain things.

If you want to try the mastery "Magics".  Kill tigers till a black or white appear. You can put any of them on a Wild Tiger.  Slashing, Piercing, etc.

The Sabre-Tooth Tigers have Slashing Mastery. The Lion has Piercing Mastery.  If you damage a Sabre tooth, it will heal itself, if you can tame it while healing is on the Lore screen, it will have Healing.

Lions, Tigers and Sabre-Tooths Oh my.


110 scrolls are fine.  You can get a whole set for 10 to 15M on Atl.  Use 120s for magics.  Except magery, pets dont fizzle.

Pawain said:

Grimbeard said:

So I could have chivalry ai and frenzied ww? 

Yes on a Triton or the dragon.  Add Chiv last.

I already added chivalry and don't want to mess up 122 wrestling dragon so will live without fw!

15 millions today... 5 millions last week, 30 next week...

I get what you mean and I will have fun anyways, but going in and ruining my only chance at a superior pet while a simple tooltip would have prevented it, is a bitter aftertaste of long effort, I know some people do it fast but it took me time, doing tests and being careful. The whole way up was fun I actually loved the complexity, I loved the masteries too which I figured after a few pets. I love the fact its not clear what is the best (I think we all have fun that is unequivocal) but its not clear why I'm allowed to fail in this very basic measure, I think its not good design.

I think to myself: I'm ready I read all of UO Cah, did many tests with what I could tame, I don't know how I missed these calculations but I guess I did, I referred to the basic guides and didn't see such limitations clearly indicated... And its not like I'm saying "unfair" because the RNG is unfair the stats on my pet are not good or anything like that, it just makes no sense to let me do this as a player without any warning. I put hard effort, I should know if I'm going to break something... like anything else! Or at least it should say "choices remaining" or something.

Could ask us when adding a magical ability, this will render your previous magical ability unusable, do you wish to continue? I'm sure you agree it would be much simpler, knowing not many will read the whole documentation?

What is gained in the fact I ruined myself breaking pets? Nothing... nobody gained anything. What is the use of this mechanic?

I love 99% of it, but this 1% which I think is basic in that you do not want your player to feel cheated with hard effort... its long for me to accumulate 10 millions... the market of what I can get is saturated, I don't know what to say its just feedback and questions.

I take risks while playing UO all the time and lose and find it fun, but I know what I am getting into. For this I did not, and I actively tried, so take it for what it's worth.

I know some people power game and it might seem irrelevant in the big picture, but there are a lot, and I mean a lot of players like me relearning it all, playing very organically or casually, and generally many I talk to feel cheated by this system.

If I'm really now an elder tamer, there is no roleplaying reason what so ever that something like this would happen, my pet just short circuits and I have to guide it myself to the oubliettes, kill it?

Wait and hope it can be repaired with a unicorn wand of mercy?

Makes absolutely no sense... I built them for a reason for a specific purpose with specific skills and resist and no I did not follow the perfect template for those reasons... *long sigh* I played the game like it was intended, leaning on my own experience and roleplaying the tamer.

The game cant determine what will "ruin" a pet.   Lore pets on Atlantic.  They purposely made them like that!

There are gates on Test Center that will advance pets level to 100%.  We can design and test pets there.  You can virtually build using the Cah Planner.

Ahua said:

Thanks Pawain for linking the official page. I guess I should have read the official documentation before reading other websites, it got me confused, but I vote for adding this limitation clearly written in game, because as many of you say, can't make players read and I realize not many do when I give them links. An awful lot of people complain about their broken pets, and when I ask them why to avoid it, they are completely clueless while its clearly written on that page, should be a hint another step has to be made to communicate it... before all power scrolls are sunk into this... tactics 120 quadrupled in two weeks and can hit 150 millions now... imagine being a returning player trying to build a warrior... a simple warrior, good luck the broken pets are eating all the scrolls... I think it should be two separate systems it makes no sense. I welcome returning players in my guild and have to tell them, sorry you can't make your build.

Its a game, it should allow everyone to have fun and be competitive, I'm not saying they should be free, but, accessible, possible, within reasonable limits. Again maybe I'm just missing information to understand. 

I don't see it slowing down... so this means I will build no warrior and neither will I have any high level pets, for the foreseeable few next years. And perhaps ever, unless I find a miraculous way to make gold. And I will have to guide my returning players to make build with skills that are not used by pets... which is close to impossible...

Do you see how bad this sounds? great system, lack of foresight on integration imo.

Sorry to say but its breaking the experience of 3 returning vets in my guild right now, they have no hopes so they stopped being active, and most importantly stopped being exited about progress. They cannot even hope for a 120, like ever, as we pull like maybe 100k an hour in hunts, the hardest we can handle. And we won't handle stronger for better loot unless they can advance.

Oh and btw its not just the 120s... my last pets only had 110, and it was barely affordable.

I think it is very important that it be addressed as a whole problem... somehow.

Sorry to say but its breaking the experience of 3 returning vets in my guild right now, they have no hopes so they stopped being active, and most importantly stopped being exited about progress. They cannot even hope for a 120, like ever, as we pull like maybe 100k an hour in hunts, the hardest we can handle. And we won't handle stronger for better loot unless they can advance.

@popps Can you give us the pet you want to train?  There are some nuances to training pets.  If you name the pet type I can walk through how I would train it.  The way I would train a pet relies heavily on guidance from the wiki, another forum, but mostly from @pawain answers to questions.  Also, shout out to @mariah because all inquiries should start with the wiki.

Ahua said:

15 millions today... 5 millions last week, 30 next week...

I think to myself: I'm ready I read all of UO Cah, did many tests with what I could tame, I don't know how I missed these calculations but I guess I did

If you're on Atlantic i can donate some gold or buy some scrolls. 

DO NOT beat yourself up over this. It happens to even the longest of vet players. Being tired or in a rush this can happen so easily.

The bright side is there's always a player that will take, cherish and use whatever pet you think is bad. 

Rocko said:

@ popps Can you give us the pet you want to train?  There are some nuances to training pets.  If you name the pet type I can walk through how I would train it.  The way I would train a pet relies heavily on guidance from the wiki, another forum, but mostly from @ pawain answers to questions.  Also, shout out to @ mariah because all inquiries should start with the wiki.

I use a PP nightmare and split them into groups ie kite some of them. works ok with consume damage and some heals 

popps said:

Rocko said:

@ popps Can you give us the pet you want to train?  There are some nuances to training pets.  If you name the pet type I can walk through how I would train it.  The way I would train a pet relies heavily on guidance from the wiki, another forum, but mostly from @ pawain answers to questions.  Also, shout out to @ mariah because all inquiries should start with the wiki.

@ Rocko

Well, currently, I am looking for a pet (and training guidance) that would allow a tamer to be able to run through massive Nest maps solo, without spending too much time on each one since the Luck Statue+Clock only lasts 1 hour and, even with Luck from statue and clock bonus, Mature eggs are still nigh to impossible to be seen but, if I spend too much time on each massive nests, there is only a handfull that I can get done in that hour... so, I am trying to speed up the time to get each single massive Nest map done so that, in that short 1 hour span, I can get a good number of them done to at least have a little more chances at a mature egg.

Any advice ? Thank you so much.

Post the lore screen of the resistances of the Mobs.  That will tell you the best pet type to use.

Then spend 6 mo making that pet into a FWW/Chiv pet.

Hey thanks everyone!

I appreciate the replies, I know that technically my pet isn't ruined... but you knew what I meant I've got some medium powered pets that I did who work wonderfully for low-mid content, but then I was generously given some rare ones, and felt like I did enough pets to go all in with all my money for 2 pets that I did plan carefully, to help tank for my guild in specific situations we could not handle otherwise. Apparently a player tank can't really tank well...

I used this page as a reference, and also browsed the other ones many times : https://www.uo-cah.com/training/pet-training-basics

and you see there is not a single mention of such limits... If you know the owner of that page this is the link that 90% of tamers (who also broke pets btw) gave to me... so we can understand what is going on here, the official page is better than the guide everyone thinks is the best out there, so why aren't people using the Wiki or Official page? maybe they don't know it exists for some reason... I know I did search UO taming and browsed various sites but this one did not pop up on top of the search, it should be the first on top.

This puzzles me, I literally asked tamers all week those two questions, have you broken a pet, do you know why it broke so I can not make the same mistake. And they say they've read the whole UO-Cah and don't know what they did wrong, some of them even gave me pets to replace my broken ones (people are really generous). In fact right now, I can stand at the stable and there are lots of people who want to give me otherwise "perfect build" pets because they say they don't want to buy powerscrolls anymore, they are done with taming. (what?)

I was just given a pink CU, which is the "perfect spawn and build" and has some points left to apply the powerscrolls, I asked the owner why would not you sell it, he says it won't sell... so why not complete it?

He said he was done buying powerscrolls and training pets... because he broke too many, he said over 20, burned out. Said if I didn't take it he would kill it because its getting hard to give them ?! (re-what?!)

The first "major" pet I did actually glitched, I did plan it on the tool but when I went to apply my magical ability it would not show up, so I pressed again and again on the button and it let me do it, took one point each time but it would not show up in lore and knowledge, I still don't know why... so I thought it did not work so I tried another skill, I thought not the best but at least it might work, big error at that moment both showed up and he stopped using everything else but the last one. So he's using 1/5 abilities... and yes its broken, if I pit my major pet against a mud elemental and he struggles, its broken alright, my mid pets chew through them in seconds I use them a kind of baseline for analysis because good overall resists and high skill. So a pet I invested over 80 millions on... is worse than a pet that only has a few 110 scrolls and I did casually?

The system is perhaps fine, but it does glitch, like many other things... and system that allow you to break something permanently is not fun regardless of the true cause. Its like I spent months building a house making deco and then I added one too many items and the whole house reset and 4/5th of my deco is gone. Every game systems has failsafe for this reason, because it should be fun. 

For me the fun is in trying different possibilities, maybe having it sub-par (in which case I would not have any problem, I intentionally did not chose the common "perfect" build.) Like Mariah said I'm just trying to have fun, not to be perfect or to sell it or make money, just want to bring my guild in more challenging places.

But right now I'm not having fun because yes, I have no funds left to start again... but mainly also because this limits the combinations I can pick, tremendously... I understand now why everyone makes the same build (and its not fun), they do it to be safe with hard earned money (the worse reason imo). I'd prefer limited choices, but that work, and it would prevent so much frustration and players burned out. There is no way I can flip it where I will appreciate that I'm being offered choices that are guaranteed to break my pet. Everything else in game has fail-safes to prevent you from doing absurd errors nobody would ever want to make.

My guild was playing at least 6 hours each night, now they haven't logged on in 3 days, sparingly last week, they had been looking for reasonably priced scrolls for days and got tired... this is the last thing I heard from the 3 most active players I had. 

These were 15 year returning veterans who knew the game very well... who were so motivated, and I saw them go from AHHHMAZING to "ugh". We are noobs again, but we know how to play. So the issue is not us, there is a big gap between low level content (and its low level loot we cannot sell) and high level content, where my guildmembers feel grossly underpowered, the 120 scrolls do not seem optional.

Technically it should be... but the jump to end-game content is almost immediate, if we want to pull worthy sellable rewards to get money to train pets, or new characters and not feel like we're wasting our time.

Those pets were meant to help us do that.

Urge, if you want you can DM me and we can meet, I will take anything that can give me another shot a this, now that I have the proper information.

Pawain was also real nice, gave me artifacts that tremendously helped me and I could not have gotten otherwise.

Again I should not have advanced that fast, its thanks to all of you that I had the luxury to train such high level pets. I'm not complaining at all... its just that if I fell to it with all I know about UO... it means thousands more will fall too, and its not good for player retention, especially that it affects regular character building now because both use the same powerscrolls. I also think this is bad design, I understand the intention... but now people hit a wall and are forced to realize they can never afford their simple build. Not good 🙁

popps said:

Rocko said:

@ popps Can you give us the pet you want to train?  There are some nuances to training pets.  If you name the pet type I can walk through how I would train it.  The way I would train a pet relies heavily on guidance from the wiki, another forum, but mostly from @ pawain answers to questions.  Also, shout out to @ mariah because all inquiries should start with the wiki.

@ Rocko

Well, currently, I am looking for a pet (and training guidance) that would allow a tamer to be able to run through massive Nest maps solo, without spending too much time on each one since the Luck Statue+Clock only lasts 1 hour and, even with Luck from statue and clock bonus, Mature eggs are still nigh to impossible to be seen but, if I spend too much time on each massive nests, there is only a handfull that I can get done in that hour... so, I am trying to speed up the time to get each single massive Nest map done so that, in that short 1 hour span, I can get a good number of them done to at least have a little more chances at a mature egg.

Any advice ? Thank you so much.

We will tackle the pets in a moment.  If you are doing greater/massive nests and you are giving yourself an hour timer, you can make a plan to maximize your time.

1. Get the number of maps you think you can do in an hour.
2. Organize them by facet.
3. Get all the ciphers you will need and decipher the maps.
4. Go mark runes at all of your locations.

When you are ready, hit your luck items and kal ort por.

Pets: you have basically 6 weeks to do what you want to do with this event.  If you have a pet that can poison area and FWW that is your go to.  If you don't have that type of pet but you have one that can do AoE, go with that pet.  Single target pets will work but take longer.  You would be better off to use summons.

Also, don't expect to stand there while your pet wins the day.  You will need to heal it occasionally and you will need to direct its attacks.

What pets do you have now and what are their abilities?

Ok please knowledgeable tamers help me here... I have gotten a triton finally and now I'm not having fun, I'm SCARED lol...

I have chosen one special ability, it has healing by default, I think this does not count in the total?

Now technically I have one special move or AoE left, I popped it in tokuno to have bushido (which I guess would be my magical skill... but I see here this bladeweave option that wants to apply 500 for bushido and 100 for bladeweave... will this also remove my one magical ability if I pick it?

Or will it apply bushido and the special move, then I still get to pick one magical skill?

Or will it stop using bushido if I do that?

See this is not fun LOL.

I understand the limitations now, but I still don't know what to do.

Please help 🙂

Ahua said:

Ok please knowledgeable tamers help me here... I have gotten a triton finally and now I'm not having fun, I'm SCARED lol...

I have chosen one special ability, it has healing by default, I think this does not count in the total?

Now technically I have one special move or AoE left, I popped it in tokuno to have bushido (which I guess would be my magical skill... but I see here this bladeweave option that wants to apply 500 for bushido and 100 for bladeweave... will this also remove my one magical ability if I pick it?

Or will it apply bushido and the special move, then I still get to pick one magical skill?

Or will it stop using bushido if I do that?

See this is not fun LOL.

I understand the limitations now, but I still don't know what to do.

Please help 🙂

Practice on other pets first.  Or go to TC.

Honestly, until you ruin a pet or two, and learn from the experience, you won't get too far.

Also, this might help: https://www.uo-cah.com/training/triton-training-guide

ok will do! how do I get to test center with my character? its free?

It is free to transfer to test center.
To do so go to a safe logout location such as your house, an inn or tavern.
Select "Character Copy" which is the last option.
Click "Next Page"
Click on "Test Center 1"
Click on "Next Page"
Click on "Copy me!"

Your character is now at a random town on Test Center.

This is from 2019 but nothing has changed.

https://community.stratics.com/threads/triton-builds.409087/

Popps is there talking about his Triton.  I wonder why he is not using it on nests.

Ahua said:

ok will do! how do I get to test center with my character? its free?

Help  Character Copy.

All your items on you and in bank go, all your stable.  

Take anything you want to test.

so nice, and it will have my pets in stable and all? very cool

Erm its kind of scary... talk about missing items... is it a copy or will it transfer my character and I risk losing stuff? not all my pets are in the transfer box too.

Some of my items missing as well ?

It copies.  You cant lose anything.   You stay on your shard.

Log into TC1 after.

I found my sheet of different Triton Builds I made on TC.

Healing does not count.  All of these combinations fit the rules.

very nice thank you for this precious info!

Pawain said:

This is from 2019 but nothing has changed.

https://community.stratics.com/threads/triton-builds.409087/

Popps is there talking about his Triton.  I wonder why he is not using it on nests.

popps said:

Pawain said:

This is from 2019 but nothing has changed.

https://community.stratics.com/threads/triton-builds.409087/

Popps is there talking about his Triton.  I wonder why he is not using it on nests.

There have been a "few" pets past the Triton... maybe, just maybe, there might be better bets to deal with the Nest Maps spawn, particularly the Massive Maps ?

Or, if I may ask, does the Triton (which build ?) still beat any other pet when it comes to Massive Nest Maps spawn ?

The key issue being, as to which pet can not just kill the Massive Nest Maps spawn, but do it also faster, considering that the 1 hour span for the Luck Statue and Luck Clock goes away quite fastly, even if one has all of the spots pre-marked for faster recall to (and also considering that Ilshenar spots cannot be marked nor recalled to).

I told you to post lore sheets of the mobs at the nests, did you?

How else would you determine which pet to use if you do not know the resistances and damage of your targets?

Some of your Qs are just whining, so you know the answer. 

We already went over, what is best, Luck or amount/time.   YOU have to balance that with YOUR play skills and decisions.

We play UO because even when we are doing the same thing, there are many ways to do it. 

Pawain said:

I found my sheet of different Triton Builds I made on TC.

Healing does not count.  All of these combinations fit the rules.

 

Ahua said:

ok will do! how do I get to test center with my character? its free?

Ahua said:

Ok please knowledgeable tamers help me here... I have gotten a triton finally and now I'm not having fun, I'm SCARED lol...

I popped it in tokuno to have bushido

See this is not fun LOL.

Bushido is so so. I do get a good giggle when the pet uses evade.

The chiv-ai pets are like players using samps. It just works. 

2 of my tamers have discord so i'm perfectly happy just beefing stats and adding AI. I'm not overly excited about my pet taking a couple extra hits to kill something. 

@popps. What weapon specials do you use?  Why do you use those?

A pet is no different. 

What weapon damage type do you use on a specific mob.

A pet is no different.

Don't worry Mariah ^^ lol... the fact I'm so exited about returning and I'm asking flying questions instead of verifying everything means I'm having fun exploring 🙂

I always know I can google things, but that's time not playing and meeting new people! This is why I guess I asked people in game before coming here to share my feelings and questions.

My experience can serve as a lowest common denominator of sorts. I was patient with UO back in the day, always loved its complexity, so I will be, if something confuses me, it means its confusing.

But I'm not going to invent subjects and ask questions all the time, this one I took to heart and really wanted to discover organically because its so cool!!! But exactly as Urge said, I expected many to be "so-so" and I'm perfectly fine with it, again so are many of the tamers I talked to. It's just the broken part, that I wish the towncryer was yelling the solution to in all cities haha.

But with patience, I will explain this knowledge to as much people as I can, will also ask: have you checked the official wiki? when I don't know the answer 🙂

Besides, as always, nothing is set in stone, and upon some re-work or rebalancing, some pet classes might "just work" too.

Thanks to you guys I did manage not to break the triton 🙂 Far from so-so !!! it rivals my Cu I was happy about, but in huge crowds of mobs, he beats him like twice over.

His stats are worse, way worse, so I can only attribute it to Bushido and Bladesweave. Which are both being used quite consistently (not broken). Took 90+ bushido to really start seeing some action however.

Now, and I think I can say OUR problem now... is that there is no way to scroll those pets.

I know Pawain said I could have a set of 110 for 10 millions on Atlantic, well JUST the tactics 110 is now over 10 millions... and it was like a million a month ago.

All my savings from back in the day were sunk into two super broken pets, and I'm not in a better position.

There is no offer... 7 millions for an anatomy scroll... healing? forget it... Parrying ? 6 millions for 110? forget it...

I've even seen players sell 110 tactics for 100 millions on VS, I think they just predict they can leave it sitting there and one day (very soon) it will sell. And it just might.

For normal players, it means maybe affording one lets say superior pet every few IRL years (not exaggerating) a lot of your players have no idea how to amass any respectable sum of gold... tried vendors, items don't sell, in fact people drop artifacts on the ground that are better than what I can get hunting, multiple times a day from the matriarch. When I find something cool and I'm like this is worth something like 100k maybe, I search and see it being sold for 1000 gold, because people undercut to get a chance at some gold.

No wonder nothing sells, they're more common than regular items now.

So I'd say this is a big problem, that I don't see how is going to get better.

Two guildies that I convinced to re-sub (they were on EJ) have not logged back on since they calculated how much it would cost to make their build. It hits that hard... it means either begging, which some refuse to do, or grinding for a long, too long time. Or buying gold? which we cannot even buy directly from broadswords and at least feel good about supporting the game and devs.

I already bought sovereigns multiple times, but I refuse to buy gold from players who clearly control the whole economy.

Why? I see no sensible explanation to this kind of economics. The only people with added fun are those who hoarded those scrolls. I think they have enough fun already, time to stop the hemorrhage. 

Most don't want to be given them either, they want to progress by their own efforts (and I understand this very well)... I meet more new and young players on a given day who completely refuse all help, tell me they love the grind. I respect that.

I got them to pay a 6 month sub to this game... they should have an organic way to make their build (I'm excluding equipment)... just the character.

When I find something cool, I don't think to sell it, I keep it for a returning player in my guild, because people playing is worth much more to me than just doing my thing. This is what I did with Pawain's uber artifacts, kept 2 for myself, rest was distributed to guild. It means much more to me that they feel like they can be a little better and still feel good progression than financing another fancy pet. But it only works for so long, until they hit that skill issue.

Sure I know the arties were worth enough millions to scroll this pet (just one), but I don't feel good encouraging this price gouging, we'd love to hunt our own PS, even if its risky in Fel... but we can barely handle Valor spawn (lol) so this is not a possibility.

Everyone, even the richest players I know are starting to feel this way (no way I'm paying 10 millions for a 110 tactics)... its not a small problem we can address later, this is actively discouraging players, new and old.

Thank you for understanding my passion and sharing your wisdom.

Tactics was expensive before the revamp.  So it has been higher than the other melee.
They were 10M when 97 was on Test Center.  The others were way cheaper so I bought only those. I couldn't afford 10M for a scroll.

Prices from 2021 



I bought all the cheap 110 tactics on Atl before pub 121, they were 3.5M. 
Resist went up after the Revamp.
They are in demand again because of the new pets. 

Clydesdales
NL pets coming to Prodo.
3 dragon influenced pets.

Yeah, but imagine Pawain... you bought all those 110 at the reasonable price... and many other players with the means to, did the same.

Where does that leave the new player? the returning player who knows the build that will satisfy him?

I'm seeing what seems like bots, doing that, but intentionally to hoard them and raise the price.

I watch often, because there ARE reasonable players putting them on vendors at a reasonable price for other players.

Last night a player unloaded a LOT on a vendor, it was 4 AM... not many people on. there were 10x 110 tactics for like 3 millions each... thought I'd grab one or two even if it hurts.

Well I got there in half a second, you imagine I hurried... well there was a player there, who bought all 10... then I saw 10 new listings for 12 millions each, minutes later.

Manipulating this economy is as simple as buying all the lowest price ones, raising price, which becomes the new de-facto price so most people will now list at that price.

No economy works in such a bubble.

400% profit... and what bothered me most is that he could buy the 10x before I even had time to buy one, clearly a script.

What fun is added to the game to allow people to just literally make sure any new or returning player wanting to make a warrior feels like its impossible?

Again I loop back to my initial observations...

Check your dms and log in lol

Thank you so much! and even more for the pragmatic information.

One more question, just want to make sure if it happens to others too... I picked bushido and got Whirlwind attack with it... not the Frenzied Whirlwind that one works...

But I hear the proc sound for the attack, but it does absolutely no damage... tested it on a dense orc fort to make sure I wouldn't miss it, even lower animals... it just makes a sound, 0 damage at all.

Can anyone confirm? if its not just me I might enter a bug report.

Other multi target bushido abilities work... just not this one, and it procs often so its a big problem.

WW from bushido should work.  I have never used it because I make pets that do max damage.

Are you hitting a target that you can lore and see the resists?

One of my tamers has every color Hiryu and Lesser with different builds.

I went with this.



The Grasping claw will help with the FWW and pet damage, 100% physical.

I know it did damage to multiple targets.  No clue which special it came from.

A lesser Hiryu would be the best pet IMO to try your Bushido build on.  You can use 105 110 scrolls, it uses the defensive parts of Bushido.  Will be a high 800sHP Tank with all the bells and whistles.

Yeah I noticed gaps in the damage being shown and clearly the sound made for normal hit vs the blade shuffling sound for the whirlwind is easy to spot, also it does not show the bushido pre-cast so visually also easy to see, and regardless of the resists or skill level of creatures... as I said tested in low skill orc fort with tons of mobs and fast spawn.

The bushido attack that hits a second time on close by mob works fine, so does bushido moves, but the whirlwind absolutely is just a sound. Not seen it land once, it would be obvious and either show damage on all mobs in dock (they are all on him)... or I would see it displayed overhead, none happen.

So I think this is buggy.

Erm we can add another bug to the list... when a party member, or party pet is close to mine (which is pretty much always)... the bushido skill that strikes next target, strikes party members as much as mobs. If they hit back my pet, then pet aggros on them, and I can't take it off them at all... even if I say kill the mob, it goes back to hitting my own party.

lol... I guess we should keep the feedback coming guys... 

Bushido is not so-so... it needs debugging and some love... my pet sometimes go 3 minutes without attempting a single bushido cast... and he's completely full of mana (1222 mana).

This cannot be intended...

The pets seem to be spared now... 0.o ... it attacks party members however, and its not because they are in guild... this is just regular party member shows in blue should be friendly.

Yup area spells do that too.  All stop  to make the pet stop.  Invis target or pet if needed.

We have some nice disposable pets.  Cu, Lesser Hiryu, Clydesdale, Reptalons.  All can do your experimental builds.  Im having to move pets around, I am finding Cus all over with 1 weird special that I tested.

When you are ready for AI/Chiv I can give u a Triton.

I keep a lot of old pets because I had a bunch of 120 parry scrolls at first, so silly me let pets eat them like treats. (I thought, we will just need 1 pet, how foolish)  I hope for the pet recovery token that will never come.  I do have 6 8 toons that can have 40 pets.

Edit, I dont know how many.  I can think of 7 with a variation of Allen in their name and I know of 3 others with non allen names.

If you want to learn how to be a tamer.  Go to Eodon and separate a Naj. Tame it.  Next separate a Dimetrosaur. Tame it.  That will teach you to maneuver in a hostile environment.

Then after the event go separate 10 Rams from their home and put them in that empty room so you can calculate which one is best and keep it.  Don't kill any mobs you aren't taming while doing this.  You will learn to make the environment suit you.  Spawning mobs ruin your setup.  Move the Mobs.

Then you can easily go back to Eodon and kill mobs for Huntsmaster rewards.  That Campfire is Awesome!  That's why I put poison damage over cold on pets, I actually fight tough things that do poison damage.  Haven't found that tough cold damager yet.  

Eodon is great for Tamers.  You can do the Valley of One with a new player.  I have taken many returning players there for the kill quests. I help them train up a pet from their stable or give them a Cu.
Help them level the pet put AI/Chiv on it. I take 1 other toon with a Cu. If they happen to have a 1 slot Beetle, that can be used.  But takes longer to train.

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/quests/a-valley-of-one-quest-chain/ ;

You can use a Crystal to travel in Eodon.  You go get the quests first.

First do Great Ape.  You need to do a practice run.  Drag the Ape out into the hall a little. Fight a while. He will teleport back to his home. You tell the other person how to exit the banana pit because he may take a player with him.  The NOOB goes back to the hall to wait for next round.  You do the rest until you can drag Ape back to the hall.  Its Fing Donkey Kong Meets UO.  I mean come on, if a experienced player takes someone to Great Ape, how would they not sign up!! 

Then you do T rex.  Both of these are perfect for a Cu.  You have to use the skills you learned earlier to clear a spot to fight T rex.

Both of these fights take a while and can be chill if you manipulate the environment in your favor, they can go awry if not.

I do those with others for fun.  The rest are less fight related.
There are 5 tribes so you have to get an item from each


Prob have 100 of the mosaics laying around.  They don't stack!
Turn em into deco floor tiles.  The other pieces make good deco.  

Fires is animated!



You turn the 5 items in and get one of the rewards.  You will get many Banana Deeds.

@keven2002 ; See how many items are in that tiny field!  I say locked down items should not count towards storage.

Thanks love those infodumps hehe 🙂 

Pawain said:

@ keven2002  See how many items are in that tiny field!  I say locked down items should not count towards storage.

I agree with you. I don't decorate because I can't spare the extra 200+ lockdowns to build a themed home; if they made lockdowns not count towards the house count I'd definitely create something.

So the rule stated on the wiki does not always work, I'm sad to be the bearer of bad news.

Did a test with a clydes, thought I'd play it safe... took bladesweave, smooth training bushido and ninjitsu as passives... then took talon strike... smooth nice combinations sometimes, love it.

Then I did the grave error of adding Chivalry. Pet forgot everything else... or it just seems like it?

Only uses chivalry now, I tried various situations, various level mobs, groups, solo: bladesweave completely stopped in its tracks, no more gains at all. Pet is always at full mana almost using nothing letting himself be beat on sometimes and casting heals.

Also not casting heals out of combat? intentional?

I see a very rare talon strike, and chivalry spells, more chivalry spells. often the same, heal heal when it does not need it, then no heals when he does.

Only chivalry is training, bushido and ninjitsu dead stop so it'll never be good.

I'm reading on UO-CAH and the pages are full of this and that ability is bugged... so I'm playing safe. I avoid those.

Still I'm breaking them.

What did I do wrong here? Is it possible to make something different or only one build works? please be honest with me here... 🙁

I guess the bladesweave passive count as magical abilities... and it is not stated anywhere.

So they don't balance well... I just saw one bladesweave spell in two hours very actively watching.

So it still exists... its just not really working working.

*sigh*

PS - Its not broken, just not balanced in its use, understatement... my best guess is because the passives have been displaced as active magical abilities would.

Are you seeing none of these possible moves?

I know I should have assumed it was too powerful to be true ._. again, I was so into it, very fun but seeing it struggle when its supposed to reach its summum is so painful.

I will keep them all just in case something can be done in the next years 🙂

I think Pawain was hinting about it when he said they are weighted, could mean some powerful abilities might carry weight in magical abilities. There's a maximum of spells pet can chose from kind of formula, and some combinations drive it over, so it forgets or displaces some.

We're just missing some information here, does passive abilities like bladesweave have weight in the magical ability category? and if yes then maybe I should just have went with bladesweave and no extra magical ability, just extra moves...

Please don't worry for me I'm having a lot of fun! I would just like to know the real rules.

And yes, I've seen some bladesweave moves, but I'd say they happen less than 1% of the time.

So its not gone, just displaced I guess. So it will now train really, really, slow, no matter, onto the next pet 🙂

Bladeweave works with chivalry.  I did a whole thread about testing it on Cus.  

It does have an offensive and defensive mode which can only be accessed with EC and knowing what to do.  They did not finish that part well.

I had a player come change mine for testing.  In defensive mode you do less damage over time.

Yes a lot of the abilities descriptions sound great.  They just are not impressive.  And newer mobs have abilities to counter them.  Like Mortal Strike only stops healing.  Event mobs have hit point regen.

We do not know what ability the pet will use and when. Make a weaving pet.  It will do EoO at any target HP but rarely when really low HP.

Basic AI/chiv pets do the most damage.  Sure I wish other things were nearly as good,  but they are not.

Yup I agree the AI will need some love and could indirectly "res" those pets eventually, I can wait 🙂

I thought that's what made bladesweave not OP, having no idea how lucky you're going to get so yes its lots of spells, but could be unlucky. I kind of ignore those issues. What I'm reacting to is when you have so very few choices, and you take even less than most pets will have with innate abilities just to play safe, and it still is completely unbalanced in use.

But can my theory make sense as to the basic rules?

You said that innate abilities do count and reduces your choices, so a fresh Clyde's has none, no extra skill like poisoning or healing or anything along those lines.

Could everything "count" as a spell and be queued much like a macro is, and that the selection of those spells follow the weight rule across those magical skills?

So when we add Bladesweave, Bushido comes as primary passive skill, so some weight is given to the abilities (2 choices from these first 3 categories) and some weight is given to the magical abilities side (even if not listed and passive)?

I am thinking, because the performance of the pet is much like the one in which I picked two magical skills... Since those were two full weight magical skills on that previous pet, they completely overide each other, and the previous skill starts to decrease. I understood that part the hard way.

But what if for example, applying the chivalry would displace Bushido but not fully in spell selection? This would explain why a pet that has innate magical ability like poisoning can then learn necromage or another full weight skill and still use both. Some might weight more than others, and we cannot seem to rely on the listed "weight in training points" which is not the same measure.

Since it procs so little, and the skill is really low (I raised .1% bushido in 4 hours of heavy training, while I raised 10% in chivalry, it clearly shows us the ratio of time it will cast and possibly gain) then the cast just fails its checks and this explains the long pauses between chivalry casts?

Before I picked Chivalry, on the previous level, bushido and ninjitsu were training slow, but then again more weight is given to bushido, so it was training at a very slow speed, like chivalry, but normal speed. Ninjitsu was however extremely slow, as if it had very little weight, and when I added chivalry, it took all the weight from bushido, and now strangely ninjitsu raises faster than bushido.

See what I mean? This is irrefutable proof that we're missing a crucial math equation to understand how to even make informed decisions.

I like the take one magical and 2 from the other categories rule, but its just a guidelines that often will work, it does not explain the real rules and again, many will fall prey to it.

I'm seeing more and more broken pets... tamers harassing me to take 100 million $ pets that are supposed CHIV AI perfect builds but apparently didn't work. Not kidding I can rarely go at stables without being proposed dragons and CUs and many rare pets. They want to get rid of it to start over, again, some tell me over 50 broken pets...

If we're meant to break them and waste all this time and money, I'd like it to be listed in game, warn the players, this can fail as much as a craft can. I should not have to feel like I'm beta-testing the system, having to do all these copies on TC, wait, use gates.

I did use everyone's tricks, but its limited... and the fun is understanding the rules and playing by them.

Hard to complain being offered so many rare pets, but after trying those pets, mine that I trained with your information in mind perform much better. And I have no more room now, I prefer keeping my broken pets until they just I guess rebalance the AI weight selection, than getting multiple "perfect" pets with all the same build. I know they are technically ok, just not working right now.

And you just told me secret procedure only available in the EC? I will find it lol, challenge accepted.

I'd even say the whole AI is different per animal and they don't behave the same with the same skills (weight/decision on the behavior tree). For example my CU will proactively come and heal me when I'm hurt, my triton with the same healing and build never will. Hasn't tried to heal me once.

Both my CU and Triton need to be told to "guard me" and then they will use their healing on themselves out of combat, if I don't, then they're very happy to be at low health apparently, even under 10% they just stand there and do nothing.

I love the concept as it leaves a bit of mystery in how the pets will behave, I like all the complexity and mysteries.

I did a test with blades weave, and when you add frenzied whirlwind to it, it also displaces bushido in favor on ninjitsu. If we could have just this part of the equation elucidated, I wouldn't need to bother anyone ever again with my questions and emotional reactions (lol). I'd just be playing the game.

They put Bladeweave on Cus because when it uses Bleed, it removes bleed from the Cu.

But, it then randomly chooses the ability it uses.

Doubt its fully random, this is not how behavior trees with weights work. This is my point.

If it were truly random then I have about the same amount of "spells" in BW and Chiv... so they should proc the same.

Now 20% gain in chiv, and still .1% in bushido... its literally gone. Thought it might react differently to single mob and multi-mobs but it does the same...

heal heal heal when its 98%, as soon as it gets a few good hits and down past 80% the heals almost stop and it consecrates its own weapon like 5 times in a row, lol, completely useless.

It will let itself die without heals.

I program behavior tree and various AI agents for a living (senior technical designer/engineer), way before it was popular and mainstream, which is why I'm so interested and passionate about this system.

It can't be random, or my Triton would randomly try to heal me too, its way more complex than this, which is why its interesting, still need the basic math equations to make informed decisions.

Yeah I did extensive testing now, and I MUCH prefer my pet with only blades weave and talon... it would heal more too (not sure why, bushido passive maybe?) so strange...

Chivalry completely ruined it... almost 90 chivalry now and bushido has not moved more than .1... at least its not going down but I estimate the proc rate about .01% for bladesweave... not broken as other pets, but almost.