The Clydesdale: Last Stand, Your Thoughts?

It really hard to tell how strong it is, we need to test them on Prodo in some big fights to see how strong it really is. But imo on test it seems balanced and pretty Cool.

I would say it definitely adds flavor to the PvP, considering it is important especially for players that has templates for dismounting the enemies - fights might become more interesting.

I'm ok with it, in fact I'm looking forward to it.

Most players I know of, are thinking, yep must get it, it's a must have now.
If it gets killed, then we pop VvV mounts, so not much change in a sense - dismounting is already rife, most deaths happen dismounted anyway.

I'm happy with the 30 minute timer, that is about right, some timers are too long to make something worth even using based on how useful the ability is, this one seems about right.

Thumbs up from me, the mount is cool as well.

Ok, on request from someone, I have tried to get pvpers to respond here.
In general, pvpers do not respond on forums, they are too busy living/playing to respond, this isn't their thing.
And when a 25 year old vet shows up with 1 post, they also face a lot of disbelief. 🙂
One of the issues is, due to many years of not being listened to, pvpers have given up giving feedback - I have tried to suggest this could be different.
Any pvpers reading, please give some feedback, and preferably agree with me. 🙂

i think the cooldown should be a bit longer.
maybe about 1hr?

Sorry I'm a little light on the details of exactly how this works.  This is what I've heard but I haven't had time to test and confirm on my own.  Please let me know if what I've heard is wrong.

-Pet is 1 slot.
-Cool down on the buff is 30 minutes.
-The buff prevents all damage from the spell/hit that would otherwise kill you.

We all know the pvp client already being adjusted 

It will ruin one vs one fights and in general small fights… make it work only for PvM. We do not need something like this in PvP.

BUT if you really want to go that route… do the timer once every 24 hrs (character bound), not every 30 minutes.

Every 30 minutes will ruin the game 

Blaze said:

It will ruin one vs one fights and in general small fights… make it work only for PvM. We do not need something like this in PvP.

BUT if you really want to go that route… do the timer once every 24 hrs (character bound), not every 30 minutes.

Every 30 minutes will ruin the game 

ya i agree this.
cooldown should be longer so dont effect much in vvv.
in pvm and murder attack would be ok.
so, only trigger for pvm / murder attack or cooldown need to increase longer.

Blaze said:

It will ruin one vs one fights and in general small fights… make it work only for PvM. We do not need something like this in PvP.

BUT if you really want to go that route… do the timer once every 24 hrs (character bound), not every 30 minutes.

Every 30 minutes will ruin the game 

We already have Evade going off every 20 seconds, and Seed of Life healing 40 odd every time a player gets critically low.

I don't see how once every 30 minutes really changes anything.
It's a bit like reactive paralyse - I've been 1 hit from death a few times, then my attacker has frozen on me and cannot complete the killing blow - it happens, but it isn't a major part of the game.

I do not see how it can ruin the game, considering Evade, and Dismount we already have going on - this is just a little nice to have, like reactive paralyse (and not as frequent as that even).

Randytheman said:

-Pet is 1 slot.
-Cool down on the buff is 30 minutes.
-The buff prevents all damage from the spell/hit that would otherwise kill you.

Yes this is correct. Say you have 10HP left, and a spell was to hit you for 15HP, you remain with 10HP. In many situations the follow-up is going to kill you anyway. It will lead to a few miraculous escapes. For me, 5 minutes is a long time, I don't see how once every 30 minutes is a long cooldown. Players already switch characters when they die anyway.

I think it is a good point that all pvpers will feel they need one - so the pattern would become Clydesdales, then VvV mounts. If they stop spawning after this event - they will become like Bane dragons, all future pvp characters will want them. I can see a lot being collected and put in stables.

Community Manager said:

We are soliciting feedback from the PvP Community on this feature.

Thank you kindly!

Sorry, but it's a terrible idea. It's a bit disappointing that when it comes to pvp you ignore bugs that have been reported multiple times since 15 years ago, but want to add a pay to win horsey that saves your life just because.

Do you want to make yet another object that literally every single pvper will want to have? Do you want to see a felucca where everyone runs on the same fiery pony? Come on... 

I think this should not work in PVP at all.   Leave it a PVM feature.

This new pet skill will total break the pvp system if you are not extremely careful. Like previous commenters have said, it cannot be a 1 slot pet. If it is 1 slot you can gain this pet skill for NOTHING. It will be a REQUIREMENT for pvp. New pvpers will not only face a disadvantage of a skill gap. They will be required to buy one of these horses to even have a chance. 

This new skill is also not needed. Pvp already has evade, mana shield, heal pot, apples, seed of life, barrab pot, and its almost impossible to kill a good player while not on timers for these things. Now you want to add ANOTHER timer? 

It also just feels like pay to win. If these horses dont stay for the rest of time, and are 1 slot, then you MUST buy one to have a chance at pvp.

I know Grimbeard said "we know the pvp client is being adjusted". Do we? Aren't we being asked to address what needs to be changed? If its already being adjusted, why was the question asked? Why weren't we informed? What are these adjustments? Where do we find this information? I would love to know the details. 

DeanWinchester said:

This new pet skill will total break the pvp system if you are not extremely careful. Like previous commenters have said, it cannot be a 1 slot pet. If it is 1 slot you can gain this pet skill for NOTHING. It will be a REQUIREMENT for pvp. New pvpers will not only face a disadvantage of a skill gap. They will be required to buy one of these horses to even have a chance. 

This new skill is also not needed. Pvp already has evade, mana shield, heal pot, apples, seed of life, barrab pot, and its almost impossible to kill a good player while not on timers for these things. Now you want to add ANOTHER timer? 

It also just feels like pay to win. If these horses dont stay for the rest of time, and are 1 slot, then you MUST buy one to have a chance at pvp.

I know Grimbeard said "we know the pvp client is being adjusted". Do we? Aren't we being asked to address what needs to be changed? If its already being adjusted, why was the question asked? Why weren't we informed? What are these adjustments? Where do we find this information? I would love to know the details. 

Let me guess you're the last honest pvper who only use cc with no mods ...ask cookie he'll explain it 

There are many unfortunate things here
Pvp and pvm are intertwined you can't change one without affecting the other (dog archers ruined and vvv items used in tram by non pvpers)


The other client ...

This seems like an attempt by the team for a pvp item but they don't use the other client so don't understand how hard it is to kill another player with the total automation that happens 

As it stands, and I respect the opinions of all the guys who have made their comments, I am conceding defeat. 🙂

But I do want to say this, many of you are concerned about breaking the current PvP Meta.
I would probably agree with this - BUT I accept I am happy to break the current Meta, probably hence my viewpoint. That is how I am different to many pvpers currently, I am progressive, I want to break the current Meta, and move somewhere else.
What it would do, is get rid of the ridiculous bok mage or even dexxers style RNG 1 shot routines so many rely on, then they would have to learn to pvp properly.

In a sense, it does not bother me either way, although I think it is a massive shame, I think it would be nice to have something for pvpers to go for in this content. Yes I accept, we all want stuff fixed from 15 years ago - but that is a whole different issue.

Grimbeard said:

Let me guess you're the last honest pvper who only use cc with no mods ...ask cookie he'll explain it 

I understand your point, but I'm not going to explain anything.
As a pvmer, you often suffer from a stereotypical viewpoint also. 🙂

I sCookie said:

Grimbeard said:

Let me guess you're the last honest pvper who only use cc with no mods ...ask cookie he'll explain it 

I understand your point, but I'm not going to explain anything.
As a pvmer, you often suffer from a stereotypical viewpoint also. 🙂

Not at all I 10000% approve of your game play and give zero F's about what happens in fel but as long as it can and does impact my play I'm going to squawk 

CovenantX said:

* "Last Stand" should have a global cooldown associated with it as well, so players cannot just 'summon another Clydesdale, and get several 'last stand' procs within the intended 30min cooldown period.

Sounds like players are offering feedback when they don't actually understand, know or have tested the mechanics of this.

1. it can only trigger once every 30 minutes and the owner has to be actually riding it.

2. The mount can be killed, it has about 165 health and an average of 30-40s resists and the player cannot rezz it without vet. 

3. The proc is once every 30 minutes per owner. You cannot summon endless Clydesdales.  

satana said:

Sorry, but it's a terrible idea. It's a bit disappointing that when it comes to pvp you ignore bugs that have been reported multiple times since 15 years ago, but want to add a pay to win horsey that saves your life just because.

Do you want to make yet another object that literally every single pvper will want to have? Do you want to see a felucca where everyone runs on the same fiery pony? Come on... 

Please explain how this is pay to win? You can find them all over Ilshenar and T2A and all you need is a tamer friend with GM taming to tame them. There has been no mention of them being a limited pet in the patch notes. 

Violet said:

CovenantX said:

* "Last Stand" should have a global cooldown associated with it as well, so players cannot just 'summon another Clydesdale, and get several 'last stand' procs within the intended 30min cooldown period.

Sounds like players are offering feedback when they don't actually understand, know or have tested the mechanics of this.

1. it can only trigger once every 30 minutes and the owner has to be actually riding it.

2. The mount can be killed, it has about 165 health and an average of 30-40s resists and the player cannot rezz it without vet. 

3. The proc is once every 30 minutes per owner. You cannot summon endless Clydesdales.  

Yea, sounds like alot of these commenters are making comments when they dont actually understand, know or have tested the mechanics of pvp. I respect everyone's opinion. But the sad reality is, if something can be abused in pvp, it will be abused in pvp. Covenant X gave examples. And anyone who has pvp'd in the past 5 years knows how defensive builds are already. I do not think it has much to do with the current "meta". The meta changes daily depending on the tactics employed by the opponents. If one team uses all dexers, the other team will use all all parry mages (just to give an example of the countering of templates). The fact that does not change is this- spellweavings mana shield, bushido evade, along with consumables like heal pots, bandages, seed of life, barrab pot, apples, etc, give almost any template you choose the ability to survive 6+ ppl attacking them at one time. Yes, the CAN and do die. But this usually takes a grave mistake on the part of the player. In my experience pvpers do not want, nor need, any more defense. In fact most pvpers are disillusioned with the fact that ppl cannot be easily killed. In my opinion (based on the opinions I have heard expressed from many other pvps who currently play and those who have quit because they do not like the defensive play style) we do not need yet another skill cool down to bypass for a kill. Far from it. We should be trending in the other direction. Making it easier for pvpers to die, or get a kill. I think that would attract more older players back to the original game.

Yall wonder why they do not make changes to PvP.  Pets are always killed in PvP after the rider is dismounted. Mervyn can teach you how.

OMG someone wont die on a kill hit once every 30 minutes. And they must be on the mount.

Yall only want changes that wont effect the game?  😂  

I thought I would just add to the sentiment that the game is already too defensively oriented.  It's pretty tough to kill someone who isn't taking some pretty big risks unless you have 4-5+ organized guys all lining up spells and abilities with either some really good RNG or having already blown through several of the defenders cool downs.  This leads most groups to try to hit some minimum threshold of people they feel they can comfortably kill someone in the field with.  If you could reduce that number of players maybe some groups wouldn't feel the need to pile on so many people to compete.

I'm not talking about dueling in a boxed in arena where you are trapped.  I'm talking about in the field where straight line running away is always an option.  Also probably people aren't doing arena duels on mounts in most situations anyway.

I think this new cool down is fine if it's limited to players who have taming/lore but otherwise it doesn't really have a place.

Pawain said:

Yall wonder why they do not make changes to PvP.  Pets are always killed in PvP after the rider is dismounted. Mervyn can teach you how.

OMG someone wont die on a kill hit once every 30 minutes. And they must be on the mount.

Yall only want changes that wont effect the game?  😂  

If it is not wanted in PvP, and you have to be mounted for it to work in PvM.  It is useless if you are a tamer because your pet is fighting.

I doubt a melee toon would use a swampy.  

My archer could use it for the Cheat Death. 

Id rather it have a hidden ability like a Juvenile Manticore has that takes up no intensity.

Hoof stomp that would do some damage while you are mounted.

Pawain said:

If it is not wanted in PvP, and you have to be mounted for it to work in PvM.  It is useless if you are a tamer because your pet is fighting.

I doubt a melee toon would use a swampy.  

Pawain said:

Hoof stomp that would do some damage while you are mounted.

Based on what they are saying - that maybe the winning idea, the way the Yew gate soloists currently see it. 🙂

Randytheman said:

 unless you have 4-5+ organized guys all lining up spells and abilities with either some really good RNG or having already blown through several of the defenders cool downs.  This leads most groups to try to hit some minimum threshold of people they feel they can comfortably kill someone in the field with.  If you could reduce that number of players maybe some groups wouldn't feel the need to pile on so many people to compete.

To be fair, this is me, I play in a team, but I would play in a team no matter what.

The question was asked a decade ago - should UO pvp be based around teams - or solo play - and the answer at the time was please base UO pvp around teamplay.
Most of you guys are thinking about solo play. 

I play in a team. Yes, teamplay is next level, I get it.
It is hard to get a balance between solo play, and teamplay - teamplay does need more defence, because you are being taken down by multiple players. If the game is arranged around solo players, then a team comes along, the team will just wipe everyone out, and all the soloists complain, and ask for more defence.


In summary though - an extra method of attack (rather than defence), may be more interesting also.
This is what I was also suggesting in VvV, by making the Traps and cannon turrets do far more damage than they currently do - it could lead to a lot more laughs, and strategic play. They are currently unused content - because they do effectively nothing - if you just ramped their damage up, it could be fun, and that's what its all about.

Added for context.

Last night, we fought for 2 hours, in an 8vs12.
There were about 50 kills, we killed about 38, took about 12 deaths.
So the kills are happening imo.

We were saying during the fight - that wouldn't have happened with a Clydesdale etc.
Maybe about 5 of those deaths would not have happened - about 10% of the kills during the fight.

Kyronix has said spawn permanent 

My biggest issue with the last stand is that it would appears to soak ANY amount of lethal damage with absolutely no damage done to the player. So for example if you have an enemy at 49 HP and you're lucky enough to get off a full temp death strike the enemy now lives and his life remains untouched.

If we're dead set on having this in production it should at the minimum take them down to X% health but keep them alive or split/scale the lethal damage based on available HP left. that way you got the death cheat but you also received some form of punishment even if it's a small amount.

Tested briefly.. it makes dismounting in PVP more important than it already is.  However, it does seem to prevent fair amount of deaths.  With more and more gear becoming overpowered to max out nearly all mods, a new ability that makes it even more difficult to ultimately kill someone seems a little misplaced.   My testing thus far has been limited to only an hour worth of 2v2 sparing, but my first gut feeling is that this should be a PVM only ability... difficult to test full PVP extent until it is on production shards.  Will try again tonight... 

+1 on concern that trolls who don't PVP attempting to hijack the thread with side-discussions.. 

Merlin said:

Tested briefly.. it makes dismounting in PVP more important than it already is.  However, it does seem to prevent fair amount of deaths.  With more and more gear becoming overpowered to max out nearly all mods, a new ability that makes it even more difficult to ultimately kill someone seems a little misplaced.   My testing thus far has been limited to only an hour worth of 2v2 sparing, but my first gut feeling is that this should be a PVM only ability... difficult to test full PVP extent until it is on production shards.  Will try again tonight... 

+1 on concern that trolls who don't PVP attempting to hijack the thread with side-discussions.. 

My pvm dog archer will always have an opinion as long as pvp changes affect pvm we will squawk 

I also play in a team. And we are just going to have to "agree to disagree" on the point of needing more defense. It should be almost impossible to die in pvp. As said before it usually takes the player making extremely bad choices and series of either very bad luck or mistakes. I will give examples. I put bushido/parry with evade on my char. This alone means I can "cheat death" every 30 seconds and add in enchated apples (30 second timer) and it means you need to catch a person on TWO 30 second timers to have a real shot at killing them. Any pvper that is half decent should not die if they have evade available. Now add to that War Cry, ANOTHER cheat death cooldown. Now add in seed of life and barrab potion. ANOTHER cheat death timer (thats minimum 3 deaths avoided if your keeping up). And this is with ONLY bushido/parry. Nothing is stopping you from adding in more defense with bandages, spellweaving, etc. If someone thinks pvp is not defensive enough, they might need to change thier template.

DeanWinchester said:

I also play in a team. And we are just going to have to "agree to disagree" on the point of needing more defense. It should be almost impossible to die in pvp. As said before it usually takes the player making extremely bad choices and series of either very bad luck or mistakes. I will give examples. I put bushido/parry with evade on my char. This alone means I can "cheat death" every 30 seconds and add in enchated apples (30 second timer) and it means you need to catch a person on TWO 30 second timers to have a real shot at killing them. Any pvper that is half decent should not die if they have evade available. Now add to that War Cry, ANOTHER cheat death cooldown. Now add in seed of life and barrab potion. ANOTHER cheat death timer (thats minimum 3 deaths avoided if your keeping up). And this is with ONLY bushido/parry. Nothing is stopping you from adding in more defense with bandages, spellweaving, etc. If someone thinks pvp is not defensive enough, they might need to change thier template.

I understand all of this - I think this Meta is in fact the issue.
I accept more damage output could be cool.
I would happily weaken that Meta.
That was my point somewhere re Evade - players are already cheating death every 30 seconds.
I think, forgetting the Clydesdale - there is a bigger conversation to have re pvp balance.

DeanWinchester said:

I also play in a team. And we are just going to have to "agree to disagree" on the point of needing more defense. It should be almost impossible to die in pvp. As said before it usually takes the player making extremely bad choices and series of either very bad luck or mistakes. I will give examples. I put bushido/parry with evade on my char. This alone means I can "cheat death" every 30 seconds and add in enchated apples (30 second timer) and it means you need to catch a person on TWO 30 second timers to have a real shot at killing them. Any pvper that is half decent should not die if they have evade available. Now add to that War Cry, ANOTHER cheat death cooldown. Now add in seed of life and barrab potion. ANOTHER cheat death timer (thats minimum 3 deaths avoided if your keeping up). And this is with ONLY bushido/parry. Nothing is stopping you from adding in more defense with bandages, spellweaving, etc. If someone thinks pvp is not defensive enough, they might need to change thier template.

I read this as I have all this stuff automated so I'm hard to kill ..

Grimbeard said:

DeanWinchester said:

I also play in a team. And we are just going to have to "agree to disagree" on the point of needing more defense. It should be almost impossible to die in pvp. As said before it usually takes the player making extremely bad choices and series of either very bad luck or mistakes. I will give examples. I put bushido/parry with evade on my char. This alone means I can "cheat death" every 30 seconds and add in enchated apples (30 second timer) and it means you need to catch a person on TWO 30 second timers to have a real shot at killing them. Any pvper that is half decent should not die if they have evade available. Now add to that War Cry, ANOTHER cheat death cooldown. Now add in seed of life and barrab potion. ANOTHER cheat death timer (thats minimum 3 deaths avoided if your keeping up). And this is with ONLY bushido/parry. Nothing is stopping you from adding in more defense with bandages, spellweaving, etc. If someone thinks pvp is not defensive enough, they might need to change thier template.

I read this as I have all this stuff automated so I'm hard to kill ..

It is not necessary to have any of this automated, again, you need to stop your prejudices and learn some facts.

Automation where I see affecting pvp the worst, is relative tile teleporting right in front of me, followed by a scripted dismount, then you get ganked. The automation is causing the kills, more than the defence, nothing can really survive this, this is unbalanced imo.

I'm at the point, players do not even chase me anymore, even if they are mounted, they just teleport after me... That looks ridiculous to be fair (I'm actually thinking - how desperate are these guys).

Cookie said:

DeanWinchester said:

This alone means I can "cheat death" every 30 seconds and add in enchated apples (30 second timer) and it means you need to catch a person on TWO 30 second timers to have a real shot at killing them. 

I understand all of this - I think this Meta is in fact the issue.
I accept more damage output could be cool.
I would happily weaken that Meta.
That was my point somewhere re Evade - players are already cheating death every 30 seconds.
I think, forgetting the Clydesdale - there is a bigger conversation to have re pvp balance.

I don't think parry/evade need balancing the game should finally just enforce a skill cap while in Felucca. 

Cookie said:

Grimbeard said:

DeanWinchester said:

I also play in a team. And we are just going to have to "agree to disagree" on the point of needing more defense. It should be almost impossible to die in pvp. As said before it usually takes the player making extremely bad choices and series of either very bad luck or mistakes. I will give examples. I put bushido/parry with evade on my char. This alone means I can "cheat death" every 30 seconds and add in enchated apples (30 second timer) and it means you need to catch a person on TWO 30 second timers to have a real shot at killing them. Any pvper that is half decent should not die if they have evade available. Now add to that War Cry, ANOTHER cheat death cooldown. Now add in seed of life and barrab potion. ANOTHER cheat death timer (thats minimum 3 deaths avoided if your keeping up). And this is with ONLY bushido/parry. Nothing is stopping you from adding in more defense with bandages, spellweaving, etc. If someone thinks pvp is not defensive enough, they might need to change thier template.

I read this as I have all this stuff automated so I'm hard to kill ..

It is not necessary to have any of this automated, again, you need to stop your prejudices and learn some facts.

Automation where I see affecting pvp the worst, is relative tile teleporting right in front of me, followed by a scripted dismount, then you get ganked. The automation is causing the kills, more than the defence, nothing can really survive this, this is unbalanced imo.

I'm at the point, players do not even chase me anymore, even if they are mounted, they just teleport after me... That looks ridiculous to be fair (I'm actually thinking - how desperate are these guys).

I'm simply saying Orion and does it all for you is this not the case?

To the point of Grimbeard post about automation, the reality is all the things I listed - evade, apples, war cry, barrab pot - all of these things work absolutely terrible when automated. Anyone who is decent at pvp knows when someone is using auto apple, you just bait the apple and kill them. Evade automation would be worthless as well as barrab pot because you must see the dmg coming and know when to time the use of the cooldown otherwise its wasted. Same for warcry. Ppl who try to automate warcry end up stutter stepping in situations when they should be running and it almost always ends with thier death. But I digress, the question posted has nothing to do with automation and  everything to do with the balance of the current pvp state being overly defensive already. Adding more defense to the game is not the answer.

I do agree somewhat with cookie. But I would like to say that it seems like your experiences are based from fighting an enemy with more ppl. Just throw these experiences out the window. Its flawed data. If one team decides to get 20+ ppl and dismount 6 ppl the game has basically been abused before the fight occurs. We as a community cannot base our changes on this data. Again if ppl want to group up and run a party with 20 ppl the players cannot do much about it. This would have to be addressed by the developers. Which is another conversation all together about changing the entire pvp landscape, VvV.

And to Atmoic Betty suggestion, its not a bad idea. Enforcing a hard cap on skills in fel. I would be kind of sad to not be able to build crazy 900+ skill chars anymore. Its part of the fun for me. But it would help to balance things i believe. One of the better suggestions ive heard

@DeanWinchester Your points are very well put. 🙂

I think cheating death is a bad feature in PvP. I'd prefer if this feature were limited to PvM. 

Max_Blackoak said:

I think cheating death is a bad feature in PvP. I'd prefer if this feature were limited to PvM. 

Again my pvm dog Archer is still suggesting it will affect pvm as well