what is the point of giving away free items?

If you don't want them there is this great invention called a trash barrel.

I seem to have read a theory that if the drops are so plentiful they have little to no value, then there is less incentive for the event to be scripted by 'bots'?  

I would fundamentally disagree with what you seem to be saying which is to make drops less / harder to get.  Especially if you've seen the mess on ATL at all today with the 100 (or more) accounts all there spamming stuff; it's worse than an EM event with the lag. The best I can do is "all kill" and let the pet figure it out because I'm barely able to cast a spell. 

I get where you are coming from...I also like to powergame the start of new content and get everything I can (ie setting a timer for 30min and hitting every spawn). That said, there are some people that are just going to casually play and only have one account so they might only get 2-3 drops a day. There are 6 luck belts variants / 4 cloaks / 4 shields / 4 hammers / 4 forks for a grand total of 22 "unique" drops. Getting 2-3 a day (randomly) would still take 10-11 days and that's if there aren't many duplicates. If anyone is like me, they want multiples of the weapons for when one wears down. 

Long story short, I think this content being month long is a good amount of time for the casual gamer and even for power gamers it will be good for them to get all their stuff done early. Now if the content goes 2 months; I think that's a bit excessive.

For those that are looking for that "hard to get" item then the shadow blooms in those 2 1100 hues would be right up your alley. 

King said:

I agree, and you cant even cut the Cloak to make some cloth, this would change everything, as many people like he colors and would make skirts, shirt, hats, I mean, I understand you restrict EM items to be cut but why this?

with 1k+ cloaks around, they really expect people to transmog?

Why can't we do this? This is exactly the kind of thing that lends itself to more people with more interest. What's it going to hurt? I don't understand the road blocks thrown up to being able to do the things we used to do like this.

any serious scripter would have 10x of this.
There are no serious scripters doing this however. It is not worth their time - in that sense, the event has dealt with that problem - as Petra says. By making the drops easy, it is not worth them doing it.

About the value, why should things not be plentiful, they seem to vanish fast afterwards, why not drop the value of the economy. Why is it a problem if things become 20m, instead of 1plat. It is not a bad thing if more casual players can get items.

I get some of the points, Atlantic whine a lot, they are in easy mode, there is absolutely no lag there today, on 1 character I've nailed it there, it has been no challenge.

Maybe there does need to be something for the hardcore guys, and lets face it you are hardcore Psycho. To get that volume of drops, you must have played 3 characters, and I know you probably did not script them. You are there all day, every hour of the day, the game really cannot be there just to benefit players such as yourself, who can put the time, effort, and characters in.

I think events should have different levels, and styles, and these rewards are not hardcore, and require less effort, that is fine.

LilyGrace said:

King said:

I agree, and you cant even cut the Cloak to make some cloth, this would change everything, as many people like he colors and would make skirts, shirt, hats, I mean, I understand you restrict EM items to be cut but why this?

with 1k+ cloaks around, they really expect people to transmog?

Why can't we do this? This is exactly the kind of thing that lends itself to more people with more interest. What's it going to hurt? I don't understand the road blocks thrown up to being able to do the things we used to do like this.

I agree with this, and also for the plants to be clipped for clippings to make natural plant dyes.

But on the other hand, the 3rd part of these events, the champ spawn, has always been a much shorter time frame, lesser rewards, and easier.

It's been a long session, and to be fair, the mechanics of the event are working perfectly.

So let's examine psycho's image.  32 drops in 5 hours.  Fastest each champ spawn can cycle is 35 minutes.  That's 8.57 times in 5 hours.  Let's call it 8, that means that you are doing the champ spawn (or at least the final boss) with 4 characters.  There is no need for that.

Oh so this is a Whaa wha I get too many drops when I run 4 characters at events.

I feel so sad for the abused OP.

Also, the OP does not help much with the spawn or they would have more plants. Just wait for the Boss, bring 4 guys to kill it, go complain that there are too many drops.  Sounds like someone is greedy.

Violet said:

Broadsword cannot balance events around people running 4+ characters. Broadsword cannot balance events around people being there all day every day, as Cookie puts it.

By using Hardcap they 100% could

Violet said:

I mean sure, they could change rewards to being a once a day thing, but then people would complain about that too. Be careful what you wish for.

no, I mean hardcap the daily reward per characters like X guarantee champ drop a day, after you lower their luck if they don't swap characters.. hardcore people has more than enough character to cycle through during the day.


PS: all the narrative about making limited edition heresy more accessible for returning or new players.. is VERY hypocritical.. not to say plainly bad and very wrong..

The only and I said ONLY, good design would be if ALL the past heresy would return at each event.. you would simply need to bump the numbers required to acquire those by ~10-25% (if u pay 50 point make it 55 to 63 point for the future events.. a price to pay for missing out, type of stuff.
If no point.. make it a lower drop rates..

Cuz at the end of the day.. no matter how many you are injecting into the economy.. if there is only a small % of botters (or the unicorn; that last remaining legit hardcore player still playing on UO legit 16 hours a day on 4 different account (at the same time -.-) under BS; aka bullsh*t) to control most of it.. u don't change the problems.. it still exists.. now if u make it rain on more players (wich will never happen.. UO won't ever be popular again under a studio like BS; it would be TOTALLY different)

But yeah.. giving MORE to the same tiny player base won't change anything.. on the long term.. other than making main heretic content UO has to offer less appealing/less farmed..

Returning and new players don't want more of nothing.. they want what they CAN'T get, that was mainstream one of the worst way I've ever seen (a bribe to park subbed bots on certain event area)

Violet said:

To expand on some of the comments wanting more from this event. Players are never content, they are always expecting more no matter what is given to them.

Say what ever u want.. making it rain.. like 3 differents items with 4 variations? equal more of nothing.

vs making it rain on ALL the past rewards (with an inflation fee for missing it the first time?) equal more of everything...

If there is no point system let them recycle them for inflated past event items.. prob solve everyone is happy..

But yeah.. recycle art for "new" weapon and make it rain as "new" rewards.. is soooo bad.. let's copy pasta and make those 3 items rain on the players.. arn't you guys happy?

PS: i agree players should be able to hunt for some rare stuff; specially during a MAIN event content (like the actual event items could be consider the "rare" stuff; anyway, they will always come back at some point they won't be rare anymore; over time).. u could even manipulate that extra fee depending on the actual market/ the demand for the past items.. the more it's claimed the more it cost.


Y'all acting like there was no solution to a real simple problem they created themselves. I could find you 5 more ideas, right now.. that would do better than what they actually doing.


Bots problems? make the event less appealing, on top of being re-use art, for everyone after a week.. *thumbs up*

So many decent solution possible.. 

Pawain said:

Also, the OP does not help much with the spawn or they would have more plants. Just wait for the Boss, bring 4 guys to kill it, go complain that there are too many drops.  Sounds like someone is greedy.

sound like braindead design to me.. the most obvious fix (cuz i don't consider bots) would be to build a pool of points during the champ for a loot on the champion.. à la gauntlet..

What u call greedy I call that wise.. considering the design.. he's playing the game.. he optimize it.. and he already win on day 1 and by day 7 he'll be over with.

Almost everything has been given away for free recently, where have you been? These ToTs that run for 3 months are stupid.
The stat inflation has gone insane in the last few years. I honestly have no idea what these devs are thinking. They release these best in slot gear for several months at a time and ignore how heavily it gets botted. Meanwhile, destroying almost every tradeskill or reason to have them in the process. Everything that has been released as a ToT reward is best in slot and almost every piece is <=175m. Really pandering to the people that 'quit' or 'returning players' lmfao yea all those returning/new players these days....
One of the best pieces, balron bone armor, were 15m when they dropped the second time. Recent ToT gear 50m for legs, cheaper for the second run of vambraces, and cheap SSI epaulette/tabard. There's nothing to strive towards, nothing to work towards and save up to buy anymore. Everyone has it and everyone is selling it. I can afk for 2 years and just come back spend a little bit of gold and buy shit from botters. Really takes the wind right out of my sails to have any willpower to log in and play the game legitimately to earn stuff . What's the point, it's day 1 of 30/60/90? Doesn't matter, the weapons are 3m each on VS already lmao.



At this point I'd advocate for account bound but it's getting to a point where there isn't even much of a point doing that anymore. 

username said:

One of the best pieces, balron bone armor, were 15m

I paid 85 millions x2 on Legends for my two balron armor, when I came back in ­~june-july (the event was still active but i refuse to buy High cheat so...)
Couldn't find a feudal cloak, or the sexy melee gorget, nor any of the older event items on Legends.. except the serpent quivers.. wich I paid 125m for it (for my tamer)

I still have a very long list of heresy that is not possible for me to acquired on legends.. the invasion event was a nice step in the right direction.. but seeing how the GM and BS cover for the frame skipper and bots.. I give up on after 8-9 days.. i'm not pro cheat.. and there is no end game in those condition for me.. plus i'd need to wait YEARSSS before the "right" heresy come back on the heresy loot table.

hvn't played since early dec personally.. their MAIN event.. the state of it.. killed all the motivation.. this is a shame on MULTIPLE LEVEL.

PS: ALL the heresy needs to come back at EVERY single events with an inflating grind for the past one.
If u believe those ninja earring at 50 points was good design.. and a "gift" from the dev.. you are part of the problem, imo.. personally i was super happy about it.. but this is bad design. real bad.. they should always come back and cost more n more (time to grind) every time they does.. to a certain limit.

Making it rain for those 3 different "new" items with 4 variations.. is lazy and bad. the new stuff should be rarer and u know what I think about Best In Slots on a sandbox.

Ya its so terrible that players cant profit on things that are dropping right now.  

profit?
What about streamlining?? on day 1 of the past invasion a single sanctum artefact was selling for more.. wtf is wrong with u?

How can u even defend that.. re-using skin was already a WTF.. but c'mon now.. this is one of the 4 major rewards?  😂


Edit: y'all being punish cuz the dev heard way too many crying about cheat engine during the invasion.. this must be it.. no way they would look that goof after re-using art for no good reason.. it has to be a punishment. 

KroDuK said:

sound like braindead design to me.. the most obvious fix (cuz i don't consider bots) would be to build a pool of points during the champ for a loot on the champion.. à la gauntlet..

Violet said:

1. Top attacker at the boss, meaning only the highest damage dealers would get credit.  This allowed people to come in just for the boss and "steal" credit from those that worked the spawn.  Those that worked the spawn complained so it was changed to #2.

bra.. this is a trammel only community event.. off the bat i'm like WHHAAAATTT?
for the MoE I could understand profiting off a nicher build.. but WORKING A SPAWN.. c'mon now!

Violet said:

2. You had to work the spawn (build points) to get looting rights on the boss.  The problems with this system:

     - People would work the spawn only for participation rewards and then leave the boss.
     - People who arrived too late could not accumulate enough points to get boss drops.
What happened was a bunch of bosses no one wanted to kill because they would get no rewards and those bosses would sit all day until server up.

easy fix.. the point system should be a luck system with hardcap.. the downtime between each shouldn't be a thing/problem also.. u cannot slowdown the content with a 35min break between two spawn..

Violet said:

3. The current system: Most participants appear get rewards so no one can complain about anyone stealing credit.

exactly.. they pretty much give up.. everything for everyone.. arn't u guys happy?


Edit: I still belive for an event as this one... there should be a NPC with recycle option for event items.. to acquired ANY of the older events (with the crap u collect during the spawn).. and that the new heresy should be RARE on those champ (to a certain point)
anyway it will comeback next event on the recycle list for a higher price/grind.


I really feel everyone getting punish cuz of them bots.. while pretexting it'S to help noob or returning players.. very hypocritical.. i don't take anyone saying that seriously.. it can't be serious.. has to be a troll.

Personally i'm seeing tons of solution.. before giving up.

I find your comments about the Dev team becoming abusive.

Specially when u cannot say i'm wrong.. We know how it work.. you walking off refusing to admit I am correct after losing every single of your point while acting morally superior.

As i said.. the ACTUAL PROBLEM discuss here.. is something they CREATING THEMSELVES 4 yrs ago?
If u try to play politic.. get your fact straight.. I agree with the first sentence (they doing more and more mistakes, imo.. like recycling weapon, adding confusion and totally giving up, while being silent on the war on third party).. but the rest.. is laughable and manipulative.. aka very hypocritical.. big L to you

                                                              

Here if it helps, meditate on that: "is haughty to the proud but kindly to the humble; he despises the strong, but is gentle with the weak"

KroDuK said:

How can u even defend that.. re-using skin was already a WTF.. but c'mon now.. this is one of the 4 major rewards?  😂

Would be nice if you actually played UO.  All the rewards have different skins belts have diff colors.
16 new look items.
Each weapon type has a different skin.

These dynamic spawns are the same.  Participation rewards and a Boss drop.

This is the first time there has been more than one type of Boss drop.  There are 16 items to collect for this Boss drop.

Have you done a Dynamic Spawn in UO?  Answer, Nope.

What exactly do you see solutions for other than your own made up problems?

This spawn is the best one that we have had, more types of Boss drops, a new mechanic to turn the Bosses on.  First time there have been 2 bosses.

Pawain said:

Have you done a Dynamic Spawn in UO?  Answer, Nope.

I've done more than u will ever do. 

Pawain said:

What exactly do you see solutions for other than your own made up problems?

True.. you win.. UO couldn't be a top 10 most played MMO even in 2025.. it's on me! my bad, everything works perfectly! You are right.. this is an AWESOME event.. the community deserve nothing better.. true!

Thank you for showing me the light, Paiwan.


Edit: just in case.. UO should be at least, as popular as an Albion Online for example.. but we are to the point of re-using the same weapon giving them new name with 4 variations and distriibuting them like more of nothing cuz of them bots.

Pawain said:

Oh so this is a Whaa wha I get too many drops when I run 4 characters at events.

I feel so sad for the abused OP.

Also, the OP does not help much with the spawn or they would have more plants. Just wait for the Boss, bring 4 guys to kill it, go complain that there are too many drops.  Sounds like someone is greedy.

To be fair, on Atlantic, in peak time, getting the plants is quite hard - whilst I've never failed to get a drop off the bosses, I regularly fail to get a plant.
When it started, the first few spawns I had no problems getting plants.
Then as it got crowded, there was no way you could get one, even if you were there killing spawn.
I did get some plants, I don't even want them of course, they sell for 200k on Atlantic, that is cool for me. 🙂

username said:

There's nothing to strive towards, nothing to work towards and save up to buy anymore. Everyone has it and everyone is selling it. I can afk for 2 years and just come back spend a little bit of gold and buy shit from botters. 


At this point I'd advocate for account bound but it's getting to a point where there isn't even much of a point doing that anymore. 

There's nothing to strive towards, nothing to work towards and save up to buy anymore

2 days ago, I bought the Original Bracers of Alchemical Devastation for 8p.
Myself and my sons attended every single EM Event the year before to collect the entire EM suit and sell that for 8p to manage that.
I have been after the original Bracers since the game began, and they will be put onto my pvper and used.
I now have 3 original items - sash and bracers on my pvper, and cloak on my rogue.

Point being, there are things to strive towards, and it is different for every single player, but you have to set your own targets, there are so many to choose from.

On my pvper, I've been trying to build a fully blessed, fully repairable suit, forever.
On my sw pvm mage, I'm going for sdi.
On my tamer it's luck.
On my rogue, it's as many rogue skills as he can possibly get, etc.

Violet said:

So let's examine psycho's image.  32 drops in 5 hours.  Fastest each champ spawn can cycle is 35 minutes.  That's 8.57 times in 5 hours.  Let's call it 8, that means that you are doing the champ spawn (or at least the final boss) with 4 characters.  There is no need for that.

Broadsword cannot balance events around people running 4+ characters. Broadsword cannot balance events around people being there all day every day, as Cookie puts it.  I mean sure, they could change rewards to being a once a day thing, but then people would complain about that too. Be careful what you wish for.

To expand on some of the comments wanting more from this event. Players are never content, they are always expecting more no matter what is given to them.  This is by far the most complex champ spawn to date.  New mechanics, more than 1 drop from the boss and participation rewards that are more plentiful so more players can get them.

Violet said:

So let's examine psycho's image.  32 drops in 5 hours.  Fastest each champ spawn can cycle is 35 minutes.  That's 8.57 times in 5 hours.  Let's call it 8, that means that you are doing the champ spawn (or at least the final boss) with 4 characters.  There is no need for that.

Broadsword cannot balance events around people running 4+ characters. Broadsword cannot balance events around people being there all day every day, as Cookie puts it.  I mean sure, they could change rewards to being a once a day thing, but then people would complain about that too. Be careful what you wish for.

To expand on some of the comments wanting more from this event. Players are never content, they are always expecting more no matter what is given to them.  This is by far the most complex champ spawn to date.  New mechanics, more than 1 drop from the boss and participation rewards that are more plentiful so more players can get them.

well calculated, he uses 4 characters.

in the previous event, I saw how his main character had 3 characters following the main character in follower mode.

in the vesper area, the outside area past the bridge where the tailor, when he was absent, left a character that went up and down following him 3 bots, casting spells dispel evil and shooting arrows.

Fire tactician (his character) and 3 bots, it was funny and pitiful at the same time to see this kind of actions, as he went up and down the same tiles (10-15 approx) counted all the time to get drops.

So, in 5 hours if he got that, it was as you say, from the same method.

The truth is that publishing that photo and knowing what he does, is not only a vanity, but a shame.

username said:

Almost everything has been given away for free recently, where have you been? These ToTs that run for 3 months are stupid.
The stat inflation has gone insane in the last few years. I honestly have no idea what these devs are thinking. They release these best in slot gear for several months at a time and ignore how heavily it gets botted. Meanwhile, destroying almost every tradeskill or reason to have them in the process. Everything that has been released as a ToT reward is best in slot and almost every piece is <=175m. Really pandering to the people that 'quit' or 'returning players' lmfao yea all those returning/new players these days....
One of the best pieces, balron bone armor, were 15m when they dropped the second time. Recent ToT gear 50m for legs, cheaper for the second run of vambraces, and cheap SSI epaulette/tabard. There's nothing to strive towards, nothing to work towards and save up to buy anymore. Everyone has it and everyone is selling it. I can afk for 2 years and just come back spend a little bit of gold and buy shit from botters. Really takes the wind right out of my sails to have any willpower to log in and play the game legitimately to earn stuff . What's the point, it's day 1 of 30/60/90? Doesn't matter, the weapons are 3m each on VS already lmao.



At this point I'd advocate for account bound but it's getting to a point where there isn't even much of a point doing that anymore. 

less grind; more of nothing.. this is exactly what I meant.. cuz of them bots and third party users.

What a great finale!.. that third act is inferior to the first one, imo... by A LOT.. just the confusion added with those "new" weapon was already a big nono.

Thank you popps, very good post.

By definition, it's not free if you must participate.

As others pointed out, we've had 3 different pathways (with some nuance) to directly receive rewards during this tiered event. There have been tweaks along the way.

Also, it does appear you're running multiple accounts and playing what seems roughly 5 hours in one day. The multiple accounts aside, a lot of players can't spend 5 hours in UO on many weeks -- let alone a day. If a player has an hour to play on a night, they can maybe pull off two spawns if they logged at the "right" time.

Despite doing over a hundred MoEs, I never got a single rift. Not the best, but there is a path to getting one -- trading gold/items.

Despite using probably 4-6 totems, I never got a single purple mare, nor one I really liked that was 2-slot. There are pathways to that, and I know an increased chance doesn't equate to a sure thing. I think the devs have responded with what I don't think they had originally announced of having temporary mounts from the UO Store that are special hues. Possibly the two are unrelated, but it sort of seems they may be.

psycho said:

Disappointing content means people log of or play freeshards instead, for all of us, thats no good.

Lots of freeshards, if you come rolling up to a spawn operating a whole squad of automated characters, they just ban you as a cheater on the spot. The whole dumbshit routine about "Uh are they a multi-boxer or a multi-clienter, can they respond to a GM?" they do here on retail UO is just a pathetic farce the developers allow because they're too broke and desperate to turn away money from cheaters.

psycho said:

Disappointing content means people log of or play freeshards instead, for all of us, thats no good. I get the idea behind making paladin content - and weapons/shields, but atleast make us work for it, and not free gift that could be applied to a NPC selling at Luna. If UO want to live another 25 years it need to make content that lasts for a very long time, this champ spawn wont.

If you want UO to live for another 25 years, you need to bring in new players, and that includes things like making lots of items obtainable through normal play. New players need to feel like they can participate in these events.

Yes, vets have helped keep the lights on and they deserve to be recognized, but vets are also only covering the cost of a programmer or two, a designer or two, a few artists, a Q&A person, and the GMs and EMs. And the last time I left (for over a decade) the UO team was about the same size. I'm happy they have the cash shop or whatever (the sovereign stuff) to also help keep everything running.

But right now, content is not the problem. As I said, I was away for a long and have a lot of content to sort through and play (all the way back past Time of Legends, which I haven't even picked up yet), and have two kids playing with me who grew up on Minecraft, and who have 27 years of content to go through.

If you are truly worried about the future, focus on bringing in and retaining new players, and maybe a little bit on returning vets like me who have pumped plenty of money into UO in the past, and maybe doing so again.  When we come back, or are new players, and we see lots and lots of gear selling for 175 million gold and see events where most stuff is unobtainable it's really, really bad.  We will end up going back to WOW or Finaly Fantasy or whatever MMO we were playing before.  

Many vets who took long breaks are probably like me - I could probably easily put together a few hundred million in short order - I have 50+ heritage tokens I picked up for cheap a long time ago, not to mention lots of suits of ranger armor, all kinds of anniversary bags, many birthday/anniversary tokens, event/seasonal stuff, etc.

But somebody coming in new or if they left prior to Stygian or KR?  If they try an event like this and feel like the decent stuff is only going to botters (how is that even legal?) or people playing several hours a day, and when they see vendor after vendor with items priced at 175 million gold, they are going to ask themselves what's the point of grinding away for what seems like forever.

If we were allowed to write up vanity posts, I'd start a thread about my experiences coming back, along with my kids (12 and 14) who came from Minecraft, and the highs and lows. Newer events like this where less-hardcore players have a shot at good items would be a big plus.

@LokeaI hope you realised you are pretty much saying noobs or returning players cannot kill imp and much prefer sitting aroung waiting for the champ to spawn to give him 2-3 bitch slap. (quality content)

I stop before Stygian Abyss and came back in june of last year and my old set was more than enough to participate into the invasion/ part 2 of this event (with paragon beast like skelly drake)

PS: u can kill imps, bend your knees and collect better items than what i'm wearing in 2025 since the SA itemization is made free for everyone now.


What u saying about item accessibility.. this is not a fix, AT ALL, for this.. u still have miss over ~4 years of Best In Slot heresy that was mainstream one of the worse way possible (parking bots on specific zones) and mostly shard bound.. they might come back in a few years on the heresy list, if you are lucky.

All it does is making their new MAIN content event less appealing and less farmed.. it's a way to combat the bots users.. by punishing everyone cuz of them..


The only thing I could give u is.. a tiny pool of items (like 4 items with multiple variation) being distributed like more of nothing.. is good for new players (personally I had a lot of gathering and crafting to do, to be PvP ready) since u have more time to do other stuff.. at this point this is another problem tho.. # quantity over quality bribe events.

Just compare the part 3 with the part 1.. part one was also fairly accessible and easy while profiting from others people grind.. but u had other mini game going on at the same time like collecting NM or shadow hound and part 2 (the invasion) came in fast.. running at the same time.. ending this way.. plus re-using weapon while slapping them new special moves and new names.. I mean.. part 3 will be in the history books.

PS: the solution for those events (all heretic items returning every single time).. new player or returning players would be the main focus for those event.. for all the items they miss.. while the vet could focus their hunt on the new edition of heresy (rarer to acquired on the first run) everyone is winning.. except people that botted 100x of every single those shard bound items.. cuz instead of buying from them.. u could simply wait ~6months max for the next event to come out and farm them yourself..

The only people that, don't cheat & could cry with such design is new players/returning that want the new heresy line to be more accessible..

EX: that 200 bear (high price on it's first appearance) he come back in 6month for 150, then 175, 200, 225 and hardcap it at 250 for the others.. type of stuff..

Harder to acquired the first time.. if u wait 6 months u can get it for cheaper.. but don't wait too long to farm them.. cuz at the end it's gonna cost 250

Like that for a returning your focus would be on older items u miss; to farm first.. before price climb.. while the vet can farm the new stuff.. harder to acquired on it's first run.. since it's brand new and more appealing to them.

I'Ve read a comment about someone not having 4 hours per week to play video games.. if we balance a MMOrpg sandbox around those people.. something is wrong.. give them a pay2fast cash shop option.. fire all those affiliates; hire 2-3 GM and work on a real cash shop on EA dot com, to reinvest a % into more dev power.

username said:

lmfao yea all those returning/new players these days....

Probably more of us than you think - I've ran into a few new and returning players on LS and have talked to a bunch on reddit.  I don't know if we are noticeable to the accountants, and in my case, there's no specific thing that brought me back other than occasionally I take a look at UO.com and I was curious about EJ and the algorithm gave me some UO videos on YouTube (particularly the "UO is dead" one that was recently released).

There's so much that would need to happen to bring a lot of people back, returning or new, but events like this where stuff seems to be actually obtainable, is something. It's a better ROI than event drops that favor the botters.

I'm still adjusting to the notion that so many vendors have so many items worth hundreds of millions of gold. Right now, as we speak, on Atlantic, somebody is in general chat offering 250 million gold for an enchanted greenhouse or dye cabinet. I have over a dozen vet rewards left, if these things are worth that much, well for one reward, I'd have 250 million just like that.  That takes motivation out, but at the same time 250 million gold doesn't buy me a full set of top-tier gear.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but just wanted to mention that at any one time there are new and returning players. 

KroDuK said:

@ LokeaI hope you realised you are pretty much saying noobs or returning players cannot kill imp and much prefer sitting aroung waiting for the champ to spawn to give him 2-3 bitch slap.

I stop before Stygian Abyss and came back in june of last year and my old set was more than enough to participate into the invasion/ part 2 of this event (with paragon beast like skelly drake)

PS: u can kill imps, bend your knees and collect better items than what i'm wearing in 2025 since the SA itemization is made free for everyone now.


What u saying about item accessibility.. this is not a fix, AT ALL, for this.. u still have miss over ~4 years of Best In Slot heresy that was mainstream one of the worse way possible (parking bots on specific zones) and mostly shard bound.. they might come back in a few years on the heresy list, if you are lucky.

All it does is making their new MAIN content event less appealing and less farmed.. it's a way to combat the bots users.. by punishing everyone cuz of them..


The only thing I could give u is.. a tiny pool of items (like 4 items with multiple variation) being distributed like more of nothing.. is good for new players (personally I had a lot of gathering and crafting to do, to be PvP ready) since u have more time to do other stuff.. at this point this is another problem tho.. # quantity over quality bribe events.

I'm not saying that at all, but if I confused you, my apologies.

I don't really like to compare UO to other MMORPGs because it's a true sandbox with the best housing system, although I see some of the former UO devs who are now at Blizzard/WOW seem to be trying to improve upon it for WOW's housing later this year, but that's for another thread. But there is something to be said for MMOs that offer systems to help new players feel like they are always progressing.  We don't have that in UO, at least not in terms of what modern MMOs would consider it, and I'm glad we don't - I love having weird templates and being able to build a character that I want, that is unique.

However, I can easily see new players (and maybe even returning players) running into a wall of sorts, past their imp-killing phase where they don't feel like they are progressing in acquiring items or gold or whatever it is that they are after from UO, and where they are competing with people botting or scripting for rare or valuable loot. Now there should be some things that are extremely hard to get (although I guess not for the botters or scripters) and I wouldn't argue that, but a new player rolling through Luna is going to see vendor after vendor with a lot of items from 10 million up to 130 million and higher, and they are going to see events that they don't feel they can truly participate in.

From a design and development point of view, I think f you make things really hard to get, you are investing design and development resources into a part of the game that is played by very, very few people, some of whom are going to be botting/scripting. Again, I'm fine with that, because having some pseudo-end-game content is good for the bored vets and for some work up to.

I just think you do have to find a middle ground that benefits more people if you are trying to bring people in or back, and events like this are it. I can't tell you where most new players quit, but I can tell you that if they feel that things like this event are worth their while, and that if they participate in events like this and are rewarded (or at least don't see the botters/scripters always getting the upper hand), they will more likely want to come back to these events, which justifies the design and development resources that went into it.

In terms of item accessibility, item insurance changed that forever back in 2003 or 2004. Prior to that, a lot of us only went around with GM stuff our crafters made, or common loot drops that we didn't mind losing.  Nobody wanted to spend millions of gold on a suit only to lose it in combat or because they made a dumb mistake in the middle of a dungeon. Once item insurance came in, ridiculous prices were always going to be the eventual outcome. You'd be nervous in a piece of armor that cost you 175,000 gold in 2002.  You wouldn't be nervous to have multiple pieces of armor that cost 175 million gold in 2025. I don't know where I was going with that last train of thought, but I just think that what we have now is the outcome that was set in motion in 2003 or 2004.

Lokea said:

and they are going to see events that they don't feel they can truly participate in.

yeah, nah.. let's talk again in ~6 months.. u don't get it at all. every single of their heretic event price of entry is fairly low.. u just need to be around when it happen and be able to cope with the bots.

Lokea said:

From a design and development point of view, I think f you make things really hard to get..

yeah, let's definitly wait to have this discussion.

Lokea said:

what we have now is the outcome that was set in motion in 2003 or 2004.

yea, nah.. this is a problem they started ~4-5 years ago as a bribe (mainstreaming Best In Slot, shard bound heresy every couple of months).. the most sub account u got.. the most happy you are when parking them on certain zones.

And now they trying to fix this mistake with bad design imo (more of nothing).. just the re-use weapon was already a HUGE nono.. at this point.. they should have skip part 3.. it's gonna be studied in designer schools on what not to do in ~10 years.

Lokea said:

username said:

lmfao yea all those returning/new players these days....

Probably more of us than you think - I've ran into a few new and returning players on LS and have talked to a bunch on reddit.  I don't know if we are noticeable to the accountants, and in my case, there's no specific thing that brought me back other than occasionally I take a look at UO.com and I was curious about EJ and the algorithm gave me some UO videos on YouTube (particularly the "UO is dead" one that was recently released).

There's so much that would need to happen to bring a lot of people back, returning or new, but events like this where stuff seems to be actually obtainable, is something. It's a better ROI than event drops that favor the botters.

I'm still adjusting to the notion that so many vendors have so many items worth hundreds of millions of gold. Right now, as we speak, on Atlantic, somebody is in general chat offering 250 million gold for an enchanted greenhouse or dye cabinet. I have over a dozen vet rewards left, if these things are worth that much, well for one reward, I'd have 250 million just like that.  That takes motivation out, but at the same time 250 million gold doesn't buy me a full set of top-tier gear.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but just wanted to mention that at any one time there are new and returning players. 

I've been exactly what you went through, and have been advocating from that perspective for a number of years.
My boys are now 13 and 16, and have been playing for 4+ years maybe?

I started with gargoyles when they were not fashionable at all, and it was the first Deceit event that really made it for us, a ton of farming enabled us to get some top end gear for those characters.
The Ice Dungeon event will remain one of our favourites - no special drops - the frost slayer talisman that I then went and lost... but actually in terms of playing together and the nostalgia, was one of our favourites, we did that one in Felucca.
Yes - there are so many more new, and returning players than people realise, happening all the time. One of the issues here, as a guild, we can only help a couple, and there are so many. Negative players go on about the elderly age of players the whole time, and our guild has quite a few youngsters. The cross-over is completely possible.

I also started on EJ, and fairly quickly converted that up to subbed, then bought 2 more. Then the big project has been pvp for the boys, but they like their pvm, and one of our main monthly hunts is the EM Event, we like that, and have our routine.

Anyone who is disagreeing, or arguing, ignore them, you are on the right track, doing the right thing.
Give your feedback on these forums - I personally, while I push things a bit, have always found the Devs have taken notice, and seen the gaps when we point them out through the eyes of new players, and have implemented so much. If you write in a logical way, like you are, without abuse, honestly, I've found the Devs have put so many good things in the game over the last 5 years.
I've been lucky, I'm part of a really great solid large guild, with a lot of resources behind us also - but it can be done however, in whatever style you enjoy. I think the key is to enjoy your thing, don't be measuring yourself against everything, do what can be played for. All the negative people, are always comparing themselves against everyone. If you find something truly impossible, let the Devs know, if you find a real gap.

WTF did I just read.. I was like he's getting to the point.. let him cook.. now i'm hungry and wondering maybe he meant to type that in another thread? like wtf?!

Someone been mixing his med with alcohol again  😂

KroDuK said:

WTF did I just read.. I was like he's getting to the point.. let him cook.. now i'm hungry and wondering maybe he meant to type that in another thread? like wtf?!

Someone been mixing his med with alcohol again  😂

Fair enough, just saying.
Maybe it wasn't in regard to you specifically, just a stereotype of negative player 🙂

KroDuK said:

And now they trying to fix this mistake with bad design imo (more of nothing).. just the re-use weapon was already a HUGE nono.. at this point.. they should have skip part 3.. it's gonna be studied in designer schools on what not to do in ~10 years.

I just want to clarify on this point - I see absolutely nothing wrong with re-using a weapon skin?

They have more than enough skins in the game, the game really does not need so much new art put in - every now and again, fine, but re-using weapon skins is absolutely the way to go?

There are so many variations of stats etc.

I know you think this is a huge mistake, how come? It does not seem like a big deal to me.
I personally like weapon sets - Blackthorns Kryss set was one of my favourites, we collect slayer spellbook sets etc. Hammers are seriously rare in general, so a set on them is cool, and the shields, and war forks?
{And the fact they actually recognised these as pvm weapons, and made the specials match properly was perfect - first time I've seen that done - a lot of UO items are cast aside, because the sum total does not add up in terms of consistency for what the item is meant to be - these ones are perfectly consistent - that is brilliant}.

For me, they can be pvp, or pvm, or set for any other objective, just make sure it is all consistent, which they did.

Cookie said:

username said:

There's nothing to strive towards, nothing to work towards and save up to buy anymore. Everyone has it and everyone is selling it. I can afk for 2 years and just come back spend a little bit of gold and buy shit from botters. 


At this point I'd advocate for account bound but it's getting to a point where there isn't even much of a point doing that anymore. 

There's nothing to strive towards, nothing to work towards and save up to buy anymore

2 days ago, I bought the Original Bracers of Alchemical Devastation for 8p.
Myself and my sons attended every single EM Event the year before to collect the entire EM suit and sell that for 8p to manage that.
I have been after the original Bracers since the game began, and they will be put onto my pvper and used.
I now have 3 original items - sash and bracers on my pvper, and cloak on my rogue.

Point being, there are things to strive towards, and it is different for every single player, but you have to set your own targets, there are so many to choose from.

On my pvper, I've been trying to build a fully blessed, fully repairable suit, forever.
On my sw pvm mage, I'm going for sdi.
On my tamer it's luck.
On my rogue, it's as many rogue skills as he can possibly get, etc.

Yep, I would agree, with Original Bracers of Alch were a fantastic event in this regard. It was a very limited time to create and turn in the gargish cures and if you happened to turn in the most, like I did, you were greatly rewarded. It's an extreme, but this is a true example of what I'm talking about: something that I can work towards as a player and achieve. 

Scale this down/back a bit and this is what drives every modern MMO I can think of: creating goals (usually gear driven) for players can work towards that are gatekept and account bound. The reality of the scenario is there will be players that will not get those, but without worry, each next expansion/season is at most a year away and is another opportunity and that's what keeps players coming back. This is where UO misses the mark: the way BIS gear is given out allowing it to be botted (I mean, really botting is the problem, I don't need to go further but) and flooding the market, thus making it worthless, makes any special feeling of getting this stuff yourself is quickly washed away. Not to mention the economical impact and destruction of trade skills (which you failed to mention, you know, the main point of my post). Account bound fixes this problem in many different aspects.

Anyways, back to the bracers. No pressing play and going to sleep to win this event. Not only did I set the curve on Atlantic (they released numbers), the most populated shard, by turning in the most points and likely receive the only Bracer given out on Atlantic, but it was all done without the crutch of 3rd party clients, as they didn't exist at the time. I'm pretty much the best player ever, actually proven and confirmed. I guess I still probably am even though people use 3rd party clients as crutches, like yourself. What no skill script kiddies do isn't playing the game, after all.

I say it's an "extreme example" because I wasn't a huge fan of the grind and the fact only a few of the top rewards were given out... but making a goal, something for players like this, creating the cures and obtaining what as a unique piece on most shards at the time was an amazing opportunity. Definitely not able to repeat such an epic event in the current state of the game, would just be botted to oblivion. Sad day when the afk bots change how the devs implement events but as we saw over the winter they've even failed there.

username said:

Cookie said:

username said:

There's nothing to strive towards, nothing to work towards and save up to buy anymore. Everyone has it and everyone is selling it. I can afk for 2 years and just come back spend a little bit of gold and buy shit from botters. 


At this point I'd advocate for account bound but it's getting to a point where there isn't even much of a point doing that anymore. 

There's nothing to strive towards, nothing to work towards and save up to buy anymore

2 days ago, I bought the Original Bracers of Alchemical Devastation for 8p.
Myself and my sons attended every single EM Event the year before to collect the entire EM suit and sell that for 8p to manage that.
I have been after the original Bracers since the game began, and they will be put onto my pvper and used.
I now have 3 original items - sash and bracers on my pvper, and cloak on my rogue.

Point being, there are things to strive towards, and it is different for every single player, but you have to set your own targets, there are so many to choose from.

On my pvper, I've been trying to build a fully blessed, fully repairable suit, forever.
On my sw pvm mage, I'm going for sdi.
On my tamer it's luck.
On my rogue, it's as many rogue skills as he can possibly get, etc.

Yep, I would agree, with Original Bracers of Alch were a fantastic event in this regard. It was a very limited time to create and turn in the gargish cures and if you happened to turn in the most, like I did, you were greatly rewarded. It's an extreme, but this is a true example of what I'm talking about: something that I can work towards as a player and achieve. 

Scale this down/back a bit and this is what drives every modern MMO I can think of: creating goals (usually gear driven) for players can work towards that are gatekept and account bound. The reality of the scenario is there will be players that will not get those, but without worry, each next expansion/season is at most a year away and is another opportunity and that's what keeps players coming back. This is where UO misses the mark: the way BIS gear is given out allowing it to be botted (I mean, really botting is the problem, I don't need to go further but) and flooding the market, thus making it worthless, makes any special feeling of getting this stuff yourself is quickly washed away. Not to mention the economical impact and destruction of trade skills (which you failed to mention, you know, the main point of my post). Account bound fixes this problem in many different aspects.

Anyways, back to the bracers. No pressing play and going to sleep to win this event. Not only did I set the curve on Atlantic (they released numbers), the most populated shard, by turning in the most points and likely receive the only Bracer given out on Atlantic, but it was all done without the crutch of 3rd party clients, as they didn't exist at the time. I'm pretty much the best player ever, actually proven and confirmed. I guess I still probably am even though people use 3rd party clients as crutches, like yourself. What no skill script kiddies do isn't playing the game, after all.

I say it's an "extreme example" because I wasn't a huge fan of the grind and the fact only a few of the top rewards were given out... but making a goal, something for players like this, creating the cures and obtaining what as a unique piece on most shards at the time was an amazing opportunity. Definitely not able to repeat such an epic event in the current state of the game, would just be botted to oblivion. Sad day when the afk bots change how the devs implement events but as we saw over the winter they've even failed there.

Nice post, for once I had no problems with one of your posts. 🙂

I guess I still probably am even though people use 3rd party clients as crutches, like yourself. What no skill script kiddies do isn't playing the game, after all.
Just a point here, I certainly do use them as a crutch. I never used them for 25 years when I was younger. I still have the speed now (maybe I don't), and the skill,, but for the intensity of play I do, my tendons do not keep up. I'm currently doing the event, on a tamer, no scripts at all, and my wrists are killing, even though I'm using the easiest template going. I do use some things as a crutch for mega repetitive items, and have no qualms about that, it saves me from physically damaging myself. End of the day, I work on screens and pc's, and need my wrists in good shape for work.
However, the youngsters in our guild, do not use scripts in the main, and again, as youngsters, they want to measure their pure skill against anyone. They do not feel they need scripts, their speed is better, their skill is better, and their tendons are strong enough.
If you look at the pvp section - I have listed what I believe, are Quality of Life examples, they would help everyone, just play the game, make it smoother, have more fun.
I am also a hardcore player, and think nothing of doing a 10 hour stretch when I am not working, I play every evening, and give it a lot at weekends. When I am not playing, I want certain repetitive stuff to happen, I have a lot to fit into my life, in between RL and UO.

@Lokea welcome back! LS has a lot of new names.

The spawn is busy every 30 minutes during the hours I play.

How would Atlantic players even know what names are new? Of course they deny new and returning players exist.

If I ran UO here is what I would have done - 

Same champ but respawn as soon as boss corpse decays. 

KroDuK said:

And now they trying to fix this mistake with bad design imo (more of nothing).. just the re-use weapon was already a HUGE nono.. at this point.. they should have skip part 3.. 

Re-using weapons skins is an efficient use of resources, and it's not nearly the first time and won't be the last time. Given that we have one or two artists, and that they have other parts of UO they are working on throughout the year, it makes sense.

Yes, we'd like brand new art anytime something new is added, but that's not feasible with a team this size. If it was, we'd be getting either something on the level of Time of Legends or Stygian Abyss every 2-4 years, or even just something like the High Seas booster pack (we were supposed to get booster packs a lot more often), the King's Collection, or the Gothic/Rustic themes.  And all four of those came out 10+ years ago.. Instead, we get the new stuff in the Ultima Store (which is fine as it helps keep the game going financially).

KroDuK said:

. it's gonna be studied in designer schools on what not to do in ~10 years.

The only thing relating to UO that will be studied in any game design classes is going to be the era from the early builds in 1995/96 through possibly Age of Shadows in 2003, and I'm doubtful on AOS. I think it will more likely be the 1996 - 2001 era from the early playtests to when Renaissance came out.  It's nothing to do with the last 20 years of development/live teams, it's about the impact it had when it originally came out, when MMOs weren't mainstream.

And it has been studied in game design courses, including lectures from people like Raph Koster/DD. They don't get into the minute details of expansions either (outside of Renaissance being a response to problems with too much of it being a sandbox), they just look at the early years of how it was designed from the start (and UO's early development was pretty wild and crazy, there are some good books and videos about it) and the impact it had on the whole industry. It's discussed alongside early MUDs, Asheron's Call and EverQuest (and sometimes NeverWinter Nights from 1991 and Sierra's Imagination Network). 

And for some reason, it feels like there have been a lot of recent videos about UO that got some traction on YouTube and probably helped bring back returning players like myself.

Pawain said:

@ Lokea welcome back! LS has a lot of new names.

The spawn is busy every 30 minutes during the hours I play.

How would Atlantic players even know what names are new? Of course they deny new and returning players exist.

Cookie said:

I just want to clarify on this point - I see absolutely nothing wrong with re-using a weapon skin?

They have more than enough skins in the game, the game really does not need so much new art put in - every now and again, fine, but re-using weapon skins is absolutely the way to go?

There are so many variations of stats etc.

I know you think this is a huge mistake, how come? It does not seem like a big deal to me.
I personally like weapon sets - Blackthorns Kryss set was one of my favourites, we collect slayer spellbook sets etc. Hammers are seriously rare in general, so a set on them is cool, and the shields, and war forks?
{And the fact they actually recognised these as pvm weapons, and made the specials match properly was perfect - first time I've seen that done - a lot of UO items are cast aside, because the sum total does not add up in terms of consistency for what the item is meant to be - these ones are perfectly consistent - that is brilliant}.

For me, they can be pvp, or pvm, or set for any other objective, just make sure it is all consistent, which they did.

Lokea said:

Re-using weapons skins is an efficient use of resources, and it's not nearly the first time and won't be the last time.

You should be able to tell what weapon someone is wearing without opening the paperdoll and reading the name to know what special moves the copypasta got


But yeah.. i'm speechless.. one word; idiocracy.

Lokea said:

KroDuK said:

. it's gonna be studied in designer schools on what not to do in ~10 years.

The only thing relating to UO that will be studied in any game design classes is going to be the era from the early builds in 1995/96 through possibly Age of Shadows in 2003, and I'm doubtful on AOS. I think it will more likely be the 1996 - 2001 era from the early playtests to when Renaissance came out.  It's nothing to do with the last 20 years of development/live teams, it's about the impact it had when it originally came out, when MMOs weren't mainstream.

And it has been studied in game design courses, including lectures from people like Raph Koster/DD. They don't get into the minute details of expansions either (outside of Renaissance being a response to problems with too much of it being a sandbox), they just look at the early years of how it was designed from the start (and UO's early development was pretty wild and crazy, there are some good books and videos about it) and the impact it had on the whole industry. It's discussed alongside early MUDs, Asheron's Call and EverQuest (and sometimes NeverWinter Nights from 1991 and Sierra's Imagination Network). 

talking about Raph.. do you follow stars reach? it's on kickstarter since the 25th..

And we'll see about that.. i'm telling you this part 3 gonna be in the history books.
Also, start at 9 min.. the Tim Cotten part (u can see raph sitting on the ground with tim at 10m40s)
this happen way after the dates you are giving, btw: 

If u like that video.. research for GDC: postmortem Ultima Online, on youtube.


Let's have this discussion later.. we clearly do not have the same FoV.. for now.