Quick update from the weekend please?

Since the last patch, I have yet to see anyone obviously botting - no stacks of toons acting like a weed eater through towns. I've only even run the original UO client, so nothing has changed for me (I'm a fairly casual player now, not even setting up complete macros).

I play Catskills, and there seems like a significant drop in players. I *think* the argument against shutting out all of the people use the illegal client was that some, at least from what I read with Cookie, claimed the scripts they apparently used could be recreated in the EC -- which others claimed was not accurate. I also believe Cookie was arguing such scripts in question were largely just for quality of life and not crossing the greyish threshold into an unfair advantage (cheating). 

Ultimately, I think it'll be up to the metrics the devs can see for how this shakes out. The devs, as I understand, she didn't do a mass banning. I get the feeling it's a significant number of accounts that we're using this illegal client from when I've logged in and done the invasion. I do wonder if there is a significant loss in paid accounts what will happen, as this isn't a charity. I also wonder if true quality of life scripts could essentially be implemented into the web client to appease that group. Those looking for an unfair advantage will almost certainly continue to do so. 

Anyways, my perception of what's going on .

Oh, there were some claims of massive increases in sanctum drops, but my experience has been that it's a bit more than before -- but I chalk it up to fewer players.

To Cookie's point about disconnecting randomly, if I have two clients running on the same PC (paid accounts), only one of them will randomly get disconnected. 

Also seen this in a discord channel thought id share it here....

Skett said:

it also stopped a few botters but botting continues on 

The tl;dr on this is that the '220 second timer' that Cookie referenced is still long enough for them to run their bots, fight a few skeletons, then relog every ~4 minutes when they get DC'd. Apparently there's a function built in to the client that helps with that. Gee wonder why these clients were banned. I was following a few of the bot 24/7 sampires around long enough on Atlantic and they stop for 10s at a time every 3-5 minutes, definitely automated relogging after being kicked. Plus the discord was talking about doing this to get around the DCing. The timer needs to be lowered and add a check before login/char select.

Venom said:

To Cookie's point about disconnecting randomly, if I have two clients running on the same PC (paid accounts), only one of them will randomly get disconnected. 

I have had characters in the game all weekend, mostly idle, for hours on end and was never once DC'd. Client fully patched?

Its true I keep getting DC as well nothing but straight cc or webcuo

Cookie said:

The fact is, if you disconnected 70% of the playerbase - ANY 70%, the lag would be fixed. If we disconnected all the NON Orion users, assuming a ratio of 50/50, the lag would be fixed. Then we could sit and blame the Non Bot users for causing all the prior lag. The fact is, Freeshards handle a lot more Bots, and this does not give them issues.


Do I sound pissed off? Yes. Good. 🙂

No, you can simply login with the approved clients, or am i missing something?

Fenriswolf said:

Cookie said:

No, you can simply login with the approved clients, or am i missing something?

Approved clients do not really have what pvpers need to pvp, speed, vision, and movement being some things, along with many other quality of life points - and in some cases even scripts in my opinion.

WebCUO is a good start, but needs more, it is a bit pre-mature to cut off half the playerbase, without giving them a good enough place to go.
I personally, cannot go that far backwards.

Cookie said:

Approved clients do not really have what pvpers need to pvp, speed, vision, and movement being some things, along with many other quality of life points - and in some cases even scripts in my opinion.

WebCUO is a good start, but needs more, it is a bit pre-mature to cut off half the playerbase, without giving them a good enough place to go.
I personally, cannot go that far backwards.

Read: I cannot get an unfair advantage against my foes, therefore, I am mad. How dare UO put me on an even playing field as my opponent! I can't stand to lose a fight in a 30 year old game, my fragile ego!

Cookie said:

Approved clients do not really have what pvpers need to pvp, speed, vision, and movement being some things, along with many other quality of life points - and in some cases even scripts in my opinion.

WebCUO is a good start, but needs more, it is a bit pre-mature to cut off half the playerbase, without giving them a good enough place to go.
I personally, cannot go that far backwards.

maybe allow them in Felucca then? Wont affect me at all, as i dont pvp and also only ever go to Felucca either to buy stuff, or to do the rare treasure map that is there

In fact just let the client that was banned run in Felucca and not trammel

username said:

Cookie said:

Approved clients do not really have what pvpers need to pvp, speed, vision, and movement being some things, along with many other quality of life points - and in some cases even scripts in my opinion.

WebCUO is a good start, but needs more, it is a bit pre-mature to cut off half the playerbase, without giving them a good enough place to go.
I personally, cannot go that far backwards.

Read: I cannot get an unfair advantage against my foes, therefore, I am mad. How dare UO put me on an even playing field as my opponent! I can't stand to lose a fight in a 30 year old game, my fragile ego!

I've never had an unfair advantage, as they all used the same client as myself, quite often with far more automation.

Your argument holds no water.

Why do you maintain such falsehoods?

Fenriswolf said:

Cookie said:

Approved clients do not really have what pvpers need to pvp, speed, vision, and movement being some things, along with many other quality of life points - and in some cases even scripts in my opinion.

WebCUO is a good start, but needs more, it is a bit pre-mature to cut off half the playerbase, without giving them a good enough place to go.
I personally, cannot go that far backwards.

maybe allow them in Felucca then? Wont affect me at all, as i dont pvp and also only ever go to Felucca either to buy stuff, or to do the rare treasure map that is there

In fact just let the client that was banned run in Felucca and not trammel

Thank you for a good solution. 🙂
@Kyronix

Cookie said:

username said:

Cookie said:

Approved clients do not really have what pvpers need to pvp, speed, vision, and movement being some things, along with many other quality of life points - and in some cases even scripts in my opinion.

WebCUO is a good start, but needs more, it is a bit pre-mature to cut off half the playerbase, without giving them a good enough place to go.
I personally, cannot go that far backwards.

Read: I cannot get an unfair advantage against my foes, therefore, I am mad. How dare UO put me on an even playing field as my opponent! I can't stand to lose a fight in a 30 year old game, my fragile ego!

I've never had an unfair advantage, as they all used the same client as myself, quite often with far more automation.

Your argument holds no water.

Why do you maintain such falsehoods?

Is that so? When I travel to fel, you just know that I'm not cheating and you quickly log off, swap to the CC, and give a fair fight?

Cookie said:

Fenriswolf said:

Cookie said:

Approved clients do not really have what pvpers need to pvp, speed, vision, and movement being some things, along with many other quality of life points - and in some cases even scripts in my opinion.

WebCUO is a good start, but needs more, it is a bit pre-mature to cut off half the playerbase, without giving them a good enough place to go.
I personally, cannot go that far backwards.

maybe allow them in Felucca then? Wont affect me at all, as i dont pvp and also only ever go to Felucca either to buy stuff, or to do the rare treasure map that is there

In fact just let the client that was banned run in Felucca and not trammel

Thank you for a good solution. 🙂
@ Kyronix

@Kyronix knows better

username said:

Cookie said:

Fenriswolf said:

Cookie said:

Approved clients do not really have what pvpers need to pvp, speed, vision, and movement being some things, along with many other quality of life points - and in some cases even scripts in my opinion.

WebCUO is a good start, but needs more, it is a bit pre-mature to cut off half the playerbase, without giving them a good enough place to go.
I personally, cannot go that far backwards.

maybe allow them in Felucca then? Wont affect me at all, as i dont pvp and also only ever go to Felucca either to buy stuff, or to do the rare treasure map that is there

In fact just let the client that was banned run in Felucca and not trammel

Thank you for a good solution. 🙂
@ Kyronix

@ Kyronix knows better

So that happens a lot in Felucca, I completely admit.

Guess what, it is a sandbox game - we can deal with it, if we are bothered, I regularly kill them every single day.

We don't need to go to forums, and be all passive aggressive toxic about it. We just deal with it, it is part of our playstyle, everyone had fun.

Cookie said:

username said:

Is that so? When I travel to fel, you just know that I'm not cheating and you quickly log off, swap to the CC, and give a fair fight?

You have never been to Felucca, because you are clearly a coward and a pussy. I say that, based on your behaviour re Orion Discord etc, you don't have the guts.

Having said that - yes, we know who everyone is, and we can quickly identify who is who, and what they are using, we can see it. We then usually get talking, and they find a pvp guild home, to learn how to play properly.

I can honestly understand if no guild would want you, to me, you are a reject that no pvp guild would want in their guild, which would lead to you coming to forums to take revenge like you do.

I've called it, haven't I ? 🙂

Surely can't be because there's script kiddies such as yourself who have a fragile ego and can't stand to lose a fight without cheating IN A 30 YEAR OLD GAME. 

Cookie said: we can deal with it
We just deal with it

No need, the devs just dealt with it for you.  🙂

username said:

Cookie said: we can deal with it
We just deal with it

No need, the devs just dealt with it for you.  🙂

The Devs just killed off half the playerbase.

Did you not read the rest of my extended post?
The bots can still exist, they still have the means.
Ultimately, it is my belief, even Enhanced Client could be used, though I know many disagree with me, or think I misunderstand on that one.

username said:

@ Kyronix knows better

that can also be easily fixed by moving the powerscrolls to Trammel. Im not entirely sure the thinking behind limiting these to a small number of players who like killing each other so they gain a monopoly over one of the most important items in the game? Just make Felucca a free for all facet with no rules which is how it was originally intended and make Trammel the "normal" facet, where everyone plays on a level field

nvm

Fenriswolf said:

username said:

@ Kyronix knows better

that can also be easily fixed by moving the powerscrolls to Trammel. Im not entirely sure the thinking behind limiting these to a small number of players who like killing each other so they gain a monopoly over one of the most important items in the game? Just make Felucca a free for all haven for people which is how it was originally intended and make Trammel the "normal" facet, where everyone plays on a level field

Risk vs Reward.

keven2002 said:

Let's try to keep this thread civil and not get shut down or edited; I think it's good to talk about what's going on with the game without heavy mod.

Interesting that the Devs did that for the one 3rd party client but seemingly not others. I don't use 3rd party clients so for me this change seems to be great (still need to carve out time to get in game!). 

@ Cookie - To your point, if the "change" effects 70% of the player base and they can't log in then yes I think lag would automatically be reduced from the decrease in hits to the server. That said, if 70% of the players were really using "O" that's a larger problem in that three quarters of the players felt the need (and didn't feel the fear) of using an "illegal" client.

I will say this on PvP, I do see where you are coming from in that if you PvP the majority certainly do run scripts in 3rd party clients and there is definitely a sense of "I can't play without it" because it's virtually impossible to strongly compete against players auto chugging/trapped box/walling/etc amongst other things. It's the main reason I stopped PvPing many many years ago; it takes the skill out of PvP and makes it not fun for me. The flip side though to Cookie's statement of not going back that far from the upgrades of "O" is that everyone using it (supposedly at least 50% of people) also needs to go backwards so the playing field isn't really all that unleveled... if anything I'd say it's more leveled because there shouldn't "my script runs better than yours" and we go back to more of a pure PvP skill gameset. Personally I'm all for that, even though I'm likely 15-20 years past my peak PvP reflex/coordination heyday. 

I get that some scripts are quality of life upgrades, but I'm not sure we can have clients like "O" with only QoL upgrades but no botting/multiboxing/etc scripts. I do think that we can (and should) be able to have some communication with the Dev team to help them understand what the QoL changes we need would be and have those implemented...I think that would be the best of both worlds for me.

Reasonable points, nothing to add. 🙂

I don't care if I get threads shut down, and sometimes I am beyond being civil. 🙂

Cookie said:

Fenriswolf said:

username said:

@ Kyronix knows better

that can also be easily fixed by moving the powerscrolls to Trammel. Im not entirely sure the thinking behind limiting these to a small number of players who like killing each other so they gain a monopoly over one of the most important items in the game? Just make Felucca a free for all haven for people which is how it was originally intended and make Trammel the "normal" facet, where everyone plays on a level field

Risk vs Reward.

where is the risk in a program getting a load of powerscrolls for you?? Just move powerscrolls to Trammel and make it harder. There is the risk and the reward and its open to everyone, not just a load of people who like pvping or like using unapproved clients that do most of the work for them? Items like powerscrolls with are a key and core component of the game should be available to everyone without compromise and equally.

I do not like pvp, i never have. I have zero interest in it, and also do not like to be forced to potentially engage in it to get items that should be available to me without this.

Other games have isolated the pvp element into something optional and without detriment to the core players base. Ultima Online seems to reward players that like to pvp, which is probably the smallest percentage of the player base

Im assuming this is because the DEVS like pvp? In which case that is both selfish and detrimental to the game

Fenriswolf said:

Risk vs Reward.

where is the risk in a program getting a load of powerscrolls for you?? Just more powerscrolls to Trammel and make it harder. There is the risk and the reward and its open to everyone, not just a load of people who like pvping or like using unapproved clients that do most of the work for them?

There are competing pvp guilds in Felucca.
We spend our lives taking each other out.
This is where 90% of my pvp comes from.
Powerscrolls still create the best cauldron to start off fights.
(In my opinion, because VvV Rewards are not strong enough - again, I could quite easily re-vamp VvV if Kyronix would like to talk to me).
In general, powerscrolls do not just happen, unless it's a Bot or a sneaky Blue in off-peak time.
Move powerscrolls to Trammel, and the game becomes more stale. I know right now, you are feeling it, because many hued Nightmares, and cuddly Zombie bears are being created, and no-one is doing powerscrolls because of the event. This is just the cycle. When the event stops, the PvP guilds will do spawns again, IF there are any pvpers left.

i still think isolating pvp into something optional is better, give different rewards to players that like to pvp, like they do in other games, dont give them core items that are integral to the game and create a monopoly and at the same time potentially force players into something they inherently just do not like...

If you are worried about losing income from it, then give them special mounts, or pvp specific weapons or other things as a reward for doing something relating to that in Felucca that you can sell etc etc

They could easily develop a big list of Pvp specific items you can only get from champ spawns in Felucca, such as special gruesome masks, Massive war banners that attach to your mount, special skeletal mounts or warhorses, titles etc etc

username said:

Venom said:

To Cookie's point about disconnecting randomly, if I have two clients running on the same PC (paid accounts), only one of them will randomly get disconnected. 

I have had characters in the game all weekend, mostly idle, for hours on end and was never once DC'd. Client fully patched?

Should be. If course, my PC is beyond end of life and has some hardware issues -- so it could be that, too 

keven2002 said:

Going to hop into the game in a bit... hoping the cheaters still can't log in so I can enjoy the event.

I played for the first time in ~2 weeks yesterday.. It felt real good, i've seen one of those frame skipper/bots that was working the spawn manually on his sampire.. i can't imagine how y'all must feel on ATL.

I was expecting the same result as july.. they were all back within 48 hours.

Fenriswolf said:

Cookie said:

Approved clients do not really have what pvpers need to pvp, speed, vision, and movement being some things, along with many other quality of life points - and in some cases even scripts in my opinion.

WebCUO is a good start, but needs more, it is a bit pre-mature to cut off half the playerbase, without giving them a good enough place to go.
I personally, cannot go that far backwards.

maybe allow them in Felucca then? Wont affect me at all, as i dont pvp and also only ever go to Felucca either to buy stuff, or to do the rare treasure map that is there

In fact just let the client that was banned run in Felucca and not trammel

We don’t need to cater to people using illegal clients.

This does not impact 70% of the playerbase.  That is just fear mongering garbage.

Fenriswolf said:

username said:

@ Kyronix knows better

that can also be easily fixed by moving the powerscrolls to Trammel. Im not entirely sure the thinking behind limiting these to a small number of players who like killing each other so they gain a monopoly over one of the most important items in the game? Just make Felucca a free for all facet with no rules which is how it was originally intended and make Trammel the "normal" facet, where everyone plays on a level field

I have been saying this for decades. To counter the loss of players who want to pvp since they already alienated the biggest pvm population with power scrolls being in Fel.

90%of players that left retail and went to private shards main reason was most have champ spawns in Tram or non pvp related zones. 

Fel should be scrapped as a pvm pipe dream as most players who do not pvp (actually a bigger population then those that do) no reason to go to fel and let it be a lawless wasteland for the pvp crowd is IMO would solve a lot of issues with the game.

Would lead to a lot less botting for goods to be sold by third party sellers (which is what most people do is just buy them for $2 from a third-party) would lead to old players coming back and a lot less greifing.

Would eliminate the need for the champ spawn patrols which always call in thier 30 friends gank you and Block the exits with Para fields spamming *Tea bag* over your corpse like they just did something epic 30 on 1 a Tammer or Sampire like it's a huge feat. 

I swear they can not get out of thier own way and it's not like this is a new idea and they have not heard the thousands of leaving players say the same.

Skett said:

uo is PvP always has been

 why would you want to eliminate what little player base that PvP is left ?

the power scroll kinda sucks ya but its really no big deal being raided just try again a different time and if you have shard shields problem solved

Honestly doing spawns a very inefficient way to get scrolls even if you're successful the chances of getting the scrolls you want are small ...

I know I buy them from PvPers its very efficient 😂

someone said something about adding a new vet reward that gave out random PS like 1 a week problem solved ? the item could be a training PvP dummy you attack it and after some time it will drop the PS or kill you... you know keeping with the risk vs reward thing

Skett said:

uo is PvP always has been

 why would you want to eliminate what little player base that PvP is left ?

the power scroll kinda sucks ya but its really no big deal being raided just try again a different time and if you have shard shields problem solved

maybe take the time to hang out with a few of them im sure your opinion would change

That's not pvp though 30 dudes killing a trammy doing a champ spawn IMO does not pass as pvp it passes as griefing/ganking. Removing champ spawns would force them to actually make PvP content where people who actually pvp would be fighting other pvpers not some trammy who stands no chance. 

And what it sounds to me is that's not what they want they want to kill non pvp players they like catching a player out matched and outnumbered as if that's a big feat, sounds like a ego stroke more then it does actual pvpers wanting real content. 

If they tested this on let's say NL for a season putting champ spawns in tram and making it like in Fel you have a higher % chance at 120 and 2.0+ or better pinks than the tram champ spawns and they did the numbers of who showed up where they would have their answer, and I'm willing to bet the Tram spawns would see 1000% more action. 

They've already given us ps in  Tchest but it's still easier to buy them even if you just want 110s look at a warrior chest better chance of getting a mace scroll than the tactics my pet needs 

Grimbeard said:

Skett said:

uo is PvP always has been

 why would you want to eliminate what little player base that PvP is left ?

the power scroll kinda sucks ya but its really no big deal being raided just try again a different time and if you have shard shields problem solved

Honestly doing spawns a very inefficient way to get scrolls even if you're successful the chances of getting the scrolls you want are small ...

With that new thing to combine lower scroll for higher scroll.. I mean it's hot!!

I'd rather do my own spawn.. you never know when you're going to get lucky and get that 120 tactics.

Plus u can utilize the spawn to help you PvP.. most of those pure PvP build getting steam rolled by the spawn.. just do not use your pure PvE build to do them.

Champ Spawns best content ever made on a MMOrpg for PvP.
A good start would be to utilize you virtues system.. red players can't

Minion552 said:

Skett said:

uo is PvP always has been

 why would you want to eliminate what little player base that PvP is left ?

the power scroll kinda sucks ya but its really no big deal being raided just try again a different time and if you have shard shields problem solved

maybe take the time to hang out with a few of them im sure your opinion would change

That's not pvp though 30 dudes killing a trammy doing a champ spawn IMO does not pass as pvp it passes as griefing/ganking. Removing champ spawns would force them to actually make PvP content where people who actually pvp would be fighting other pvpers not some trammy who stands no chance. 

And what it sounds to me is that's not what they want they want to kill non pvp players they like catching a player out matched and outnumbered as if that's a big feat, sounds like a ego stroke more then it does actual pvpers wanting real content. 

If they tested this on let's say NL for a season putting champ spawns in tram and making it like in Fel you have a higher % chance at 120 and 2.0+ or better pinks than the tram champ spawns and they did the numbers of who showed up where they would have their answer, and I'm willing to bet the Tram spawns would see 1000% more action. 

Sorry dude but I used to PvP religiously.  Removing content will not ensure more PVP content.

PVPer have been asking for more content for years, but it’s just not a thing.  It’s a time vs benefit issue.

The sheep argument you’re using is an old one.  Imagine not having new PVM content for years.  Like zero, including ToTs.

The last pvp content update was what, VvV?  That was around 10 years ago, for reference.

i like where your head is at, but there won’t be more PvP content most likely.

I do think that powerscrolls should stay, largely, in their current form. There has to be an incentive to take the risk. If not, players can purchase said scrolls from vendors/chat. Now I don't think they should become shard bound, however.

Oreogl said:

Minion552 said:

Skett said:

uo is PvP always has been

 why would you want to eliminate what little player base that PvP is left ?

the power scroll kinda sucks ya but its really no big deal being raided just try again a different time and if you have shard shields problem solved

maybe take the time to hang out with a few of them im sure your opinion would change

That's not pvp though 30 dudes killing a trammy doing a champ spawn IMO does not pass as pvp it passes as griefing/ganking. Removing champ spawns would force them to actually make PvP content where people who actually pvp would be fighting other pvpers not some trammy who stands no chance. 

And what it sounds to me is that's not what they want they want to kill non pvp players they like catching a player out matched and outnumbered as if that's a big feat, sounds like a ego stroke more then it does actual pvpers wanting real content. 

If they tested this on let's say NL for a season putting champ spawns in tram and making it like in Fel you have a higher % chance at 120 and 2.0+ or better pinks than the tram champ spawns and they did the numbers of who showed up where they would have their answer, and I'm willing to bet the Tram spawns would see 1000% more action. 

Sorry dude but I used to PvP religiously.  Removing content will not ensure more PVP content.

PVPer have been asking for more content for years, but it’s just not a thing.  It’s a time vs benefit issue.

The sheep argument you’re using is an old one.  Imagine not having new PVM content for years.  Like zero, including ToTs.

The last pvp content update was what, VvV?  That was around 10 years ago, for reference.

i like where your head is at, but there won’t be more PvP content most likely.

I'm asking out of ignorance but if the thrill of fighting isn't content enough what will be? 

If the thrill of fighting was enough, they would be Trammies.  They must harass others to get their thrills.   Or they need to find Blueberry Hill.

Grimbeard said:

I'm asking out of ignorance but if the thrill of fighting isn't content enough what will be? 

Bad take.. yes this is a sandbox with open world PvP.. but if the PvP was only a yew gate battle royale with no "mini game" like champ spawn Ganking.. PvP would be consider a second thought.

They talking about adding new flavor to PvP.. someone suggested couple stuff in the other post about mother ship and other stuff.. mid/long term if PvP is cleaner and the community come back to it from time to time, BS could be incentivize to dev new mini-game PvP oriented.

As player others than open world encounter we can organize PvP tournament on the sandbox in between theme gated content.


A lot of players hated that thrilled to PvP cuz it was stressing them, but the same people would come and do champ spawn from time to time with their trammel guildmate with a couple PvPers with them, for the CONTENT.. they could get gank ~90% of the time and win ~30% of the time type of stuff.. in 2024 it was not even worth trying.. way simplier to buy scrolls from the bots.. wich is a shame.. champ spawn is the best content in the game..

Y'all might not remember but back then u could have a couple spawn work at the same time by guild from trammel.. the PK can't cover multiple spawn.. non PvPer got some tools PK don't have.. starting with numbers.. if those same PvPers ain't superior being anymore (no more cheat engine).. it level the playing field but y'all got the numbers.. just do not do like u used to do.. stack 8-12 tamer without changing anything to your build.. do not bring pure PvE build on a spawn without a protection from PvPers, the same PvPers u can support vs PKs... if u plan to be a sitting ducks bring a lot of people, even vs legit PvPers, cuz u'll need it.



Personally when I was losing patience, I would use the hammer; switch vet for tactics on the tamer and bring the unicorn with a rune beetle using spell chan mage bow (u go in to die and get the most kill.. most people were using faction.. usually u could kill 1-3 people.. it's 1-3 people with low stats for the next 15 min)

Bring the paladin to finish the job or the ninja poisoner thief in star chamber.. u can deal 1v5 easy with an account full of options vs legit PvPers using the game mechanics.. starting with the virtues.. honor yourself on a mage single target.. u can win those 1vX.. die on your ninja, just build a macro to use sacrifice a on knight humility, grab your corpse under 1 second u can go from dead to alive with 80% resource back to change animal form and keep messing them.. these scums can't use those virtues.

The most fun I had was to use a female character on a demon spawn with my virtues.. u could in solo 1v8red with the help of the succubus champ.. u just go in with a club use best weapon to dismount people.. they gonna die real quick on their PvP build.. meanwhile honor yourself if thing getting heated.

                                                  ^^

But you remember with fondness the old days when it was just fighting to fight  ?? 

Grimbeard said:

But you remember with fondness the old days when it was just fighting to fight  ?? 

Hated that era.. I went back on Diablo 1 then Starcraft.. the friend of my older sister wanted my bro and I to join him (we were like 9 and 12)

It was a game made for zergy zerg and griefers, I hated it.. U couldn't even enter a dungeon without a zerg.. u'd get grief at the door.

I started enjoying the game when Tram came out, gave a chance to solo or noobs to get into the game to compete with them later on.. then AoS was a refreshing break of PvP.. even more content to do and it bring a tons of new PvE players to the game.

The griefer that was crying about the fact AoS killed the PURE skilled PvP had a point BUT my counter argument was.. if u were a skilled PvP user u wouldn't cry.. cuz u'd have a tons of PS to sell and buy the one or two artifact items u needed, so stfu.. you're not force to PvE like the PvE players ain't force to do champ spawn. Both can trade with each others.

ps: I loved the Yew gate trash talking PvP.. from one house to another.. but it gets old real fast.. people were messing on the BattleRoyale zone when no content (spawn) was being done.. waiting for someone to make a spawn while just trash talking at Yew.. don't get me wrong.. Yew gate was a lot of fun.. but can't be the main PvP content.. PvP to PvP.. or let's go play street fighter at this point; a normalize e-sport combat game.

Grimbeard said:

Oreogl said:

Minion552 said:

Skett said:

uo is PvP always has been

 why would you want to eliminate what little player base that PvP is left ?

the power scroll kinda sucks ya but its really no big deal being raided just try again a different time and if you have shard shields problem solved

maybe take the time to hang out with a few of them im sure your opinion would change

That's not pvp though 30 dudes killing a trammy doing a champ spawn IMO does not pass as pvp it passes as griefing/ganking. Removing champ spawns would force them to actually make PvP content where people who actually pvp would be fighting other pvpers not some trammy who stands no chance. 

And what it sounds to me is that's not what they want they want to kill non pvp players they like catching a player out matched and outnumbered as if that's a big feat, sounds like a ego stroke more then it does actual pvpers wanting real content. 

If they tested this on let's say NL for a season putting champ spawns in tram and making it like in Fel you have a higher % chance at 120 and 2.0+ or better pinks than the tram champ spawns and they did the numbers of who showed up where they would have their answer, and I'm willing to bet the Tram spawns would see 1000% more action. 

Sorry dude but I used to PvP religiously.  Removing content will not ensure more PVP content.

PVPer have been asking for more content for years, but it’s just not a thing.  It’s a time vs benefit issue.

The sheep argument you’re using is an old one.  Imagine not having new PVM content for years.  Like zero, including ToTs.

The last pvp content update was what, VvV?  That was around 10 years ago, for reference.

i like where your head is at, but there won’t be more PvP content most likely.

I'm asking out of ignorance but if the thrill of fighting isn't content enough what will be? 

Grimbeard said:

But you remember with fondness the old days when it was just fighting to fight  ?? 

Sure I remember those. But we all got older and the climate has changed for it.  I think for most the amount of time available to do it just got shorter.

sometimes you don’t want to log in to fight the same people you’ve been fighting with for the last 20+ years if you only have limited time to
do it.