We should be able to lock Fame, just as we can like Karma

JohnKnighthawke said:

Not really true. Lord always seems to show on the character. If anyone is aware of something short of repeatedly dying or using Sacrifice (which has its limitations), I'll listen.

The point would be for roleplay purposes and, relatedly, just because not everyone wants "Lord" or "Lady" showing all the time simply because you've fought a lot of hard monsters. No one wants NPCs to randomly bow to you as you pass by for the same reason.

McDougle said:

If you click yourself and bring up titles menu either the first or second choice allows you to pick

McDougle said:

You can choose fame based title what would be the point of this?

Pawain said:

McDougle said:

You can choose fame based title what would be the point of this?

If your karma falls below Lord,  the title goes away. It stays on the paper doll until you close it.

Would be pointless to have the title if you did not need to upkeep it.

A better solution would be that you do not lose fame or karma when res killed. Ex: if you die within 1 min of last death you do not lose either of those stats.

JohnKnighthawke said:

Pawain said:

McDougle said:

You can choose fame based title what would be the point of this?

If your karma falls below Lord,  the title goes away. It stays on the paper doll until you close it.

Would be pointless to have the title if you did not need to upkeep it.

A better solution would be that you do not lose fame or karma when res killed. Ex: if you die within 1 min of last death you do not lose either of those stats.

Lord is based on Fame, not Karma.

"Locking" Karma doesn't prevent you from losing Karma. It prevents you from gaining it. And that's what I'm after with Fame.

Urge said:

Not to take away from the OP, but I never understood what it is exactly we're supposed to be a Lord or Lady of. 

What makes a character so glorious? Why so unsavory? 

It would be super cool for titles to actually have some sort of meaning instead of just being generic. 

Urge said:

Not to take away from the OP, but I never understood what it is exactly we're supposed to be a Lord or Lady of. 

What makes a character so glorious? Why so unsavory? 

It would be super cool for titles to actually have some sort of meaning instead of just being generic. 

Urge said:

I remember the dread lords and reds being essentially shunned. Other than that, the whole system never went anywhere like it probably should. 

It would be neat to give it a purpose. 

keven2002 said:

Urge said:

Not to take away from the OP, but I never understood what it is exactly we're supposed to be a Lord or Lady of. 

What makes a character so glorious? Why so unsavory? 

It would be super cool for titles to actually have some sort of meaning instead of just being generic. 

At one point they did. I believe a long time ago if you were a Dread Lord the shop keepers would not do business with you (someone so unsavory). I feel like being a Glorious Lord/Lady might have given you something minor (maybe a small npc discount?) but I'm not 100% sure there.

Urge said:

I remember the dread lords and reds being essentially shunned. Other than that, the whole system never went anywhere like it probably should. 

It would be neat to give it a purpose. 

In regards to Karma nowadays, i just wish they'd stop introducing hostile mobs into the "Treasures of " Events that drop your Karma when you kill them. Ice and Destard both had hostile positive karma mobs (Platinum Drakes and Treefellows) that would tank your Karma when killed. My Chiv/Macer went from capped 32k Karma down to below 10k Karma thanks to the Treefellows in the Treasures of Destard event

PlayerSkillFTW said:

Back in the day (pre-Renaissance), the only way you could become a Dread Lord, was to be a red. Dread Lords were literally the most feared and skilled PKs in the game, the best of the best, you had to be incredibly good to retain Lord status when anyone could attack you on sight anywhere. It's why the severed heads of Dread Lords are so rare and worth so much nowadays.

Reds got guard whacked damn near the instant they walked into town, NPCs would call for the guards against them. You literally couldn't use any NPC services outside of Buccaneer's Den (which was the only town without guards, it was lawless) as a red. Which also meant that you couldn't buy new horses from the Stables as a red (no bonding or ethies yet), a player tamer was a red's best friend then. Reds could only be ressed by other players or at the Chaos Shrine.

After The Second Age came out, reds also got permanent skill-loss upon death. Every time you died as a red, you permanently lost skill and had to work it back up. Blues would camp out at the Chaos Shrine and res-kill reds to reduce their skill levels back down to newbie status.

After Renaissance introduced Order vs Chaos, Dread Lord status was no longer restricted to only reds. In order to be part of an Order guild, you had to retain Glorious Lord status, and to be part of a Chaos guild, you had to retain Dread Lord status.

In regards to Karma nowadays, i just wish they'd stop introducing hostile mobs into the "Treasures of " Events that drop your Karma when you kill them. Ice and Destard both had hostile positive karma mobs (Platinum Drakes and Treefellows) that would tank your Karma when killed. My Chiv/Macer went from capped 32k Karma down to below 10k Karma thanks to the Treefellows in the Treasures of Destard event

Leave karma and fame as is. 

Merlin said:

Leave karma and fame as is. 

JohnKnighthawke said:

PlayerSkillFTW said:

Back in the day (pre-Renaissance), the only way you could become a Dread Lord, was to be a red. Dread Lords were literally the most feared and skilled PKs in the game, the best of the best, you had to be incredibly good to retain Lord status when anyone could attack you on sight anywhere. It's why the severed heads of Dread Lords are so rare and worth so much nowadays.

Reds got guard whacked damn near the instant they walked into town, NPCs would call for the guards against them. You literally couldn't use any NPC services outside of Buccaneer's Den (which was the only town without guards, it was lawless) as a red. Which also meant that you couldn't buy new horses from the Stables as a red (no bonding or ethies yet), a player tamer was a red's best friend then. Reds could only be ressed by other players or at the Chaos Shrine.

After The Second Age came out, reds also got permanent skill-loss upon death. Every time you died as a red, you permanently lost skill and had to work it back up. Blues would camp out at the Chaos Shrine and res-kill reds to reduce their skill levels back down to newbie status.

After Renaissance introduced Order vs Chaos, Dread Lord status was no longer restricted to only reds. In order to be part of an Order guild, you had to retain Glorious Lord status, and to be part of a Chaos guild, you had to retain Dread Lord status.

In regards to Karma nowadays, i just wish they'd stop introducing hostile mobs into the "Treasures of " Events that drop your Karma when you kill them. Ice and Destard both had hostile positive karma mobs (Platinum Drakes and Treefellows) that would tank your Karma when killed. My Chiv/Macer went from capped 32k Karma down to below 10k Karma thanks to the Treefellows in the Treasures of Destard event

I remember that pre-UOR I saw only one Dread Lord the entire time. So that would support the notion that this was a rare phenomenon. However, I'm always wary when someone cites the skill of PKs because there were plenty of chances to rack up kills against people who simply weren't capable of, or prepared to, put up a great fight. (Or are you including selecting targets well as part of being "skilled" at PKing?)

Regarding banks and services, yes Buc's was the standard but I also remember that there were exploits and tricks that could let you access banks besides Buc's. (I saw one dude accessing his bank box in Yew, from just outside the guard zone, but that was considerably after the time period we're talking about so I don't know if that was always there or not. I also recall many different "open bank boxes from everywhere" exploits, going back many years.) Beyond banks of course the other services could be an issue. On LS a "blessed" player town in Fel, called Rivendell, had a stable they could access but that was the exception.

Your memory of Order/Chaos is drastically different from mine -- not sure if that means we're in contradiction or if it means I'm thinking of different time periods. I do remember many in Order/Chaos who were not "Lord"s of any stripe, but I can't guarantee what time period that was. I do know, though, that if Dread Lord (or negative Karma at all!) was a requirement of Order/Chaos at any point, then that would mean that the UO devs of the time didn't understand their own story. Because Chaos in UO was never Evil, exactly. This wasn't the Chaos of the Elric or Witcher universes. Rather this was Lord Blackthorn trying to prevent shards from collapsing. (I note that Blackthorn ended up winning the Chaos/Order war by default because, much later on, British, meaning the British on all shards acting in consort, gave up trying to convert everyone to the Virtues.)

As to camping the Chaos Shrine I do not remember that being a widespread phenomenon -- it surely happened, though. I've done it. Though most of my memories of it date to after Publish 16, when reds killed in a dungeon or in The Lost Lands would be teleported to that Shrine immediately. Please remember that PKs tended to travel in packs, so one could always have help and support on-call (especially before the Publish 16 era automatic teleporting). I also remember camping the Chaos Shrine being the one time when rez-killing was considered actionable by a GM. PowerGamers reported on it in glowing terms. (Normally rez-killing was explicitly not actionable and you'd get warned or threatened by the GMs for paging on it.)

Yes, having positive Karma monsters at this kind of event is a bad idea and I'm not sure why they would do it.

At any rate, back to the main topic....I think we should be able to lock Fame (from going up), just like we can lock Karma (from going up).

PlayerSkillFTW said:

JohnKnighthawke said:

PlayerSkillFTW said:

Back in the day (pre-Renaissance), the only way you could become a Dread Lord, was to be a red. Dread Lords were literally the most feared and skilled PKs in the game, the best of the best, you had to be incredibly good to retain Lord status when anyone could attack you on sight anywhere. It's why the severed heads of Dread Lords are so rare and worth so much nowadays.

Reds got guard whacked damn near the instant they walked into town, NPCs would call for the guards against them. You literally couldn't use any NPC services outside of Buccaneer's Den (which was the only town without guards, it was lawless) as a red. Which also meant that you couldn't buy new horses from the Stables as a red (no bonding or ethies yet), a player tamer was a red's best friend then. Reds could only be ressed by other players or at the Chaos Shrine.

After The Second Age came out, reds also got permanent skill-loss upon death. Every time you died as a red, you permanently lost skill and had to work it back up. Blues would camp out at the Chaos Shrine and res-kill reds to reduce their skill levels back down to newbie status.

After Renaissance introduced Order vs Chaos, Dread Lord status was no longer restricted to only reds. In order to be part of an Order guild, you had to retain Glorious Lord status, and to be part of a Chaos guild, you had to retain Dread Lord status.

In regards to Karma nowadays, i just wish they'd stop introducing hostile mobs into the "Treasures of " Events that drop your Karma when you kill them. Ice and Destard both had hostile positive karma mobs (Platinum Drakes and Treefellows) that would tank your Karma when killed. My Chiv/Macer went from capped 32k Karma down to below 10k Karma thanks to the Treefellows in the Treasures of Destard event

I remember that pre-UOR I saw only one Dread Lord the entire time. So that would support the notion that this was a rare phenomenon. However, I'm always wary when someone cites the skill of PKs because there were plenty of chances to rack up kills against people who simply weren't capable of, or prepared to, put up a great fight. (Or are you including selecting targets well as part of being "skilled" at PKing?)

Regarding banks and services, yes Buc's was the standard but I also remember that there were exploits and tricks that could let you access banks besides Buc's. (I saw one dude accessing his bank box in Yew, from just outside the guard zone, but that was considerably after the time period we're talking about so I don't know if that was always there or not. I also recall many different "open bank boxes from everywhere" exploits, going back many years.) Beyond banks of course the other services could be an issue. On LS a "blessed" player town in Fel, called Rivendell, had a stable they could access but that was the exception.

Your memory of Order/Chaos is drastically different from mine -- not sure if that means we're in contradiction or if it means I'm thinking of different time periods. I do remember many in Order/Chaos who were not "Lord"s of any stripe, but I can't guarantee what time period that was. I do know, though, that if Dread Lord (or negative Karma at all!) was a requirement of Order/Chaos at any point, then that would mean that the UO devs of the time didn't understand their own story. Because Chaos in UO was never Evil, exactly. This wasn't the Chaos of the Elric or Witcher universes. Rather this was Lord Blackthorn trying to prevent shards from collapsing. (I note that Blackthorn ended up winning the Chaos/Order war by default because, much later on, British, meaning the British on all shards acting in consort, gave up trying to convert everyone to the Virtues.)

As to camping the Chaos Shrine I do not remember that being a widespread phenomenon -- it surely happened, though. I've done it. Though most of my memories of it date to after Publish 16, when reds killed in a dungeon or in The Lost Lands would be teleported to that Shrine immediately. Please remember that PKs tended to travel in packs, so one could always have help and support on-call (especially before the Publish 16 era automatic teleporting). I also remember camping the Chaos Shrine being the one time when rez-killing was considered actionable by a GM. PowerGamers reported on it in glowing terms. (Normally rez-killing was explicitly not actionable and you'd get warned or threatened by the GMs for paging on it.)

Yes, having positive Karma monsters at this kind of event is a bad idea and I'm not sure why they would do it.

At any rate, back to the main topic....I think we should be able to lock Fame (from going up), just like we can lock Karma (from going up).

Most Dread Lords became Lords by killing players that were Glorious Lords, which were themselves skilled players and rare back then (Lord title was MUCH more difficult to obtain back then). You could gain Fame from killing players that had more Fame than you. Dread Lords were usually the Guildmaster of PK guilds, so they did usually have a posse they ran with too.

From my old "Ultima Online Renaissance Playguide"...

CHAOS AND ORDER GUILDS

Order Guilds operate under the direct sanction of Lord British, while Chaos Guilds are sponsored by Blackthorn. A guild master may declare his guild a Chaos or Order Guild if the guild master is a Lord or Lady, i.e., if he or she has a fame of the highest level.

Once a guild is declared for Order or Chaos, all members of the guild with fame of Lord or Lady status receive an Order or Chaos shield (these shields are extremely powerful defensive magic items). Those who have not attained this exalted fame are cast out of the guild, nor can anyone of inferior fame join an Order or Chaos guild.

More importantly, all Order Guilds are considered to be in an automatic and continual state of war with all Chaos Guilds, and vice versa (see "Guild War," above).

Merus said:

I’m pretty sure we already have a toggle to remove the overhead Lord/Lady title.  Sometimes you have to do it a couple times for it to take, but it does work.  It’s called dying.

JohnKnighthawke said:

Merus said:

I’m pretty sure we already have a toggle to remove the overhead Lord/Lady title.  Sometimes you have to do it a couple times for it to take, but it does work.  It’s called dying.

Different thing.

And why allow Karma to be locked but not Fame?

JohnKnighthawke said:

Merus said:

I’m pretty sure we already have a toggle to remove the overhead Lord/Lady title.  Sometimes you have to do it a couple times for it to take, but it does work.  It’s called dying.

Different thing.

And why allow Karma to be locked but not Fame?

Merus said:

Karma can go negative… Fame can’t?

JohnKnighthawke said:

Merus said:

Karma can go negative… Fame can’t?

Actually, both can rise and fall. In terms of the mechanic of stopping them from rising, it shouldn't matter whether one can vary from 0 to, say, +100,000 and the other can vary from -100,000 to +100,000.

Reiko said:

Unfortunately I don't think you'll get much positive feedback here. Too many people resistant to change. The fame change you are suggesting is 100% cosmetic/roleplay and has no meaningful game mechanic behind it other than gimping yourself out of Sacrifice virtue gains. I agree with you and would be nice to see this cosmetic option. 

Prominent people in the community issue proposals all the time that will benefit their preferred playstyles. It seems odd to get the negativity when I propose something that benefits my preferred playstyle. Oh well.

Petra_Fyde said:

I'm not against the idea, however, it is possible to at least prevent the character from becoming lord or lady through sacrifice virtue. While most people want the highest level of fame they can get to get the highest sacrifice credit, you can sacrifice before that. I'm not sure of the exact amount of fame needed, but I can try to find out.

Merus said:

JohnKnighthawke said:

Merus said:

I’m pretty sure we already have a toggle to remove the overhead Lord/Lady title.  Sometimes you have to do it a couple times for it to take, but it does work.  It’s called dying.

Different thing.

And why allow Karma to be locked but not Fame?

Karma can go negative… Fame can’t?

McDougle said:

This simple idea and the backlash against it so highlights how jaded the players are..
A.any middle school coder should be able to do this 
B.it impacts no one... 
C.why in our day we suffered so by golly everyone suffers 

Seth said:

Fame is 0 (nobody) to superstar at max?
What is -100%? Super nobody?

Petra_Fyde said:

I'm not against the idea, however, it is possible to at least prevent the character from becoming lord or lady through sacrifice virtue. While most people want the highest level of fame they can get to get the highest sacrifice credit, you can sacrifice before that. I'm not sure of the exact amount of fame needed, but I can try to find out.

JohnKnighthawke said:

Petra_Fyde said:

I'm not against the idea, however, it is possible to at least prevent the character from becoming lord or lady through sacrifice virtue. While most people want the highest level of fame they can get to get the highest sacrifice credit, you can sacrifice before that. I'm not sure of the exact amount of fame needed, but I can try to find out.

As I've pointed out before, this has its limits and does not fit the purpose. The Virtue system is its own thing, in need of its own changes.

Jepeth said:

JohnKnighthawke said:

Petra_Fyde said:

I'm not against the idea, however, it is possible to at least prevent the character from becoming lord or lady through sacrifice virtue. While most people want the highest level of fame they can get to get the highest sacrifice credit, you can sacrifice before that. I'm not sure of the exact amount of fame needed, but I can try to find out.

As I've pointed out before, this has its limits and does not fit the purpose. The Virtue system is its own thing, in need of its own changes.

The virtue system is way overdue for an update.

Jepeth said:
As I've pointed out before, this has its limits and does not fit the purpose. The Virtue system is its own thing, in need of its own changes.

The virtue system is way overdue for an update.

PlayerSkillFTW said:

New Legacy basically. The return of the Chaos vs Order system.

New Legacy would be a fertile ground to test out ideas in and see if they're popular enough to introduce to the regular shards.

JohnKnighthawke said:

PlayerSkillFTW said:

New Legacy basically. The return of the Chaos vs Order system.

New Legacy would be a fertile ground to test out ideas in and see if they're popular enough to introduce to the regular shards.

By definition nothing on New Legacy will impact production shards. Also, Order vs. Chaos and Virtues are two different game systems. It's unlikely they'll go through the trouble of linking them. And doing so would have its own issues, mechanics and RP-wise, anyway.

PlayerSkillFTW said:

JohnKnighthawke said:

PlayerSkillFTW said:

New Legacy basically. The return of the Chaos vs Order system.

New Legacy would be a fertile ground to test out ideas in and see if they're popular enough to introduce to the regular shards.

By definition nothing on New Legacy will impact production shards. Also, Order vs. Chaos and Virtues are two different game systems. It's unlikely they'll go through the trouble of linking them. And doing so would have its own issues, mechanics and RP-wise, anyway.

The devs already stated that some elements of New Legacy may make their way over to normal shards. Seasonal environment changes or the streamlined harvesting mechanic for example.

"Finally, some of the systems we are developing for Ultima Online: New Legacy will also have a place on live – which includes some often requested system enhancements."

https://uo.com/ultima-online-new-legacy/

keven2002 said:

I think the coding is what will determine what is released to live production shards. If it's something relatively low effort to add to Prod then it's probably more likely to be added (ie dropping the existing NL code to Prod) versus something that might be a massive rewrite to existing code (ie coding twice for NL to Prod so that it doesn't totally break something).

keven2002 said:

As it relates to changing fame/karma in NL; yes I think this would be something well within their ability.

I also think fixing the spellbook strap is something they could do as well but it's just not high enough on their list, but that's a little off topic for this thread 🙂 

keven2002 said:

I think the coding is what will determine what is released to live production shards. If it's something relatively low effort to add to Prod then it's probably more likely to be added (ie dropping the existing NL code to Prod) versus something that might be a massive rewrite to existing code (ie coding twice for NL to Prod so that it doesn't totally break something).